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Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#76176: Jun 20th 2015 at 11:20:09 AM

Roy, Lucina, and Marth all have different gimmicks. Lucina has consistent damage everywhere. Roy hits harder at the hilt of the blade. Marth hits harder at the tip of the blade. They all play differently due to this. Lucina being shorter also eliminates her range, making her different in playstyle. Roy also has a lot less range due to the way he holds his sword.

They really don't play that much alike overall. Being a clone only really just means animations are mostly/entirely the same. Nothing more. Although to be fair, the only two that actually have the same playstyle are Pit and Dark Pit. But that was intentional anyway, as Dark Pit is a literal clone of Pit and is supposed to have the exact same capabilities(bar his Final Smash since he wouldn't make sense to use it).

Dear lord, if only it was that easy. Yes, Lucina has slightly less range and is slightly smaller than Marth, and her blade is equally strong all around. That is the problem: Her attack speed, animations, and her physics are all the same as Marth's. And Marth has these animations because he wants to keep opponents at sword's reach. This is programmed in and strengthened by his animations. So when Lucina shares his animations, but doesn't have the benefit of the tipper, she loses what makes it work.

Tipper attacks essentially lets Marth utilize his sword reach to rack up damage and socre early K Os. Even worse, Lucina's equal blade strength adds up to doing 25% more than untipped Marth, but 50% less than tipped Marth (and this is kind of a universal rule in terms of Marth and Lucina's attacks).

To add salt to the wound, Marth's tipper mechanic makes it so that his attacks carry more hitlag when he hits with the tipper, but also even less hitlag than normal when he whiffs. These modifiers add up to make Marth's attacks safer on shield than normal, which lets him take more risks. His defensive capabilities also doesn't suffer because of this.

Lucina does not get these modifiers as a result of her equal strength. Not only does that make her attacks more unsafe on shield, but it also doesn't do anything for her defensive capabilities. The end result means that Lucina needs to be more cautious than Marth needs to. But Marth could also play as cautious as Lucina and not suffer much (except essentially become Lucina).

Oh, you want to play Lucina as a rushdown character, something I've seen mentioned a couple times. Remember what I said about Marth's attacks being safer on average than Lucina? Having safer attacks means that Marth is actually a better rushdown character than Lucina is.

Oh, and let's add Roy to the mix. Roy is basically the opposite of Marth, having a blade that's strong at the hilt instead of at the tip. For Smash 4, he has been tweaked to be a semi-clone, and his attacks are generally less safe on shield... but he is faster on average than Marth (making him faster than Lucina by proxy since she shares Marth's physics). Not only that, but his attacks are incredibly rewarding if you hit with the sweet-spot, and not too bad on a whiff either. This means that Roy essentially can play rushdown because one good hit can eliminate the advantage the opponent builds up from Roy being unable to use the reach of his sword to it's full potential, or use his sword reach to keep the opponent out if you find that rushing down the enemy doesn't work for you. In this way, Roy not only becomes a good choice for a rushdown character, but he also easily fills the niché that Lucina had before: A "Marth" who doesn't need to hit with the tip of his sword.

So Lucina ends up sitting with the short end of the stick because she cannot attack as well as Marth, cannot rushdown as well as Roy (or even Marth himself), and her defensive capabilities end up equal to Marth at best. Jack of all trades, Master of None.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#76177: Jun 20th 2015 at 11:28:25 AM

While I'm wrong about the range(my bad), that isn't the gimmick I was talking about.

Or what you meant. We're talking about different gimmicks overall. Lucina being an "easier Marth" isn't really a gimmick in itself. Her "damage all around" is an actual gimmick.

I get what you mean, though. Roy basically makes the other two pretty bad in comparison.

Shadow?
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#76178: Jun 20th 2015 at 11:41:04 AM

Lucina needs and deserves Luigification. She's just an inferior Marth as it is.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#76179: Jun 20th 2015 at 11:46:35 AM

I don't think Lucina will come back in the next installment.

edited 20th Jun '15 11:46:47 AM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76180: Jun 20th 2015 at 11:53:26 AM

If they're willing to bring back Roy of all people, I suspect Lucina will come back at least as DLC.

I'd like to see her come back with a heavily Luigified moveset. Contrary to what Smash demonstrates, she only copped Marth's identity, not his swordplay. Her sword skills are described as being like her father's.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#76181: Jun 20th 2015 at 11:58:56 AM

[up] I suspect that the next installment will have Roy being DLC again.

So something like this for the next game's Fire Emblem Roster:

Marth
Ike
Robin
Kamui
Roy (DLC)

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76182: Jun 20th 2015 at 12:00:48 PM

I honestly don't see Kamui getting in. There'll undoubtedly be another FE game released before SSB 5, so it won't be relevant anymore by then.

I can see them dropping Lucina in favor of someone from whatever the latest game is, but then re-adding her as DLC like Roy. It's possible we may just keep the five we currently have and not get anyone new, though.

edited 20th Jun '15 12:02:04 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76183: Jun 20th 2015 at 12:02:50 PM

In a future game, they would possibly run into the problem of them both being returning clones of the same guy, which wouldn't be out of the norm for this series (given that they've done it twice already) but still would be redundant - in this one she had the benefit of being the result of convenient whim. If she were DLC in the later game, that would mean actually planning her development.

Maybe if they do with her like what they did with Wolf, but imo it makes more sense to just go back to their original plan and make her an alternate costume.

edited 20th Jun '15 12:03:01 PM by KnownUnknown

Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#76184: Jun 20th 2015 at 12:03:11 PM

[up][up] Kamui actually has good potential as a fighter. I wouldn't discount him.

edited 20th Jun '15 12:03:29 PM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Perseus Since: Nov, 2009
#76185: Jun 20th 2015 at 12:04:38 PM

If Kamui does get in, I hope the female is the default. Just for variety.

edited 20th Jun '15 12:06:33 PM by Perseus

powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#76186: Jun 20th 2015 at 12:05:13 PM

Am I the only one here that does not give a shit if someone is a clone of another character? I usually only think of it as "I want to play as a character I like, it doesn't matter to me if they're clones."

Especially with Lucina, as I think it's good for more niche franchises to have more characters and another female.

I'm actually wondering how any of the clone characters would react to seeing people hating their inclusions. ESPECIALLY Dark Pit.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76187: Jun 20th 2015 at 12:05:17 PM

I don't see them relegating Lucina to just costume at this point. They were planning on making Dr. Mario a costume but figured it'd alienate fans of the good doctor, so they made him a separate character. If Lucina returned she'd probably get the same treatment under the same logic, or ideally be Luigified like Roy.

At this point it's hard to even call Roy a clone of Marth anymore. He's about as different from Marth as Wolf was from Fox.

edited 20th Jun '15 12:06:15 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#76188: Jun 20th 2015 at 12:07:43 PM

[up][up][up] I don't think that's very likely.

That said, I know of one potential fighter who I'd peg as female by default since their game debuted.

The Inkling.

[up] He's different yes, but he also makes Lucina obsolete by filling a niché she just barely filled in the first place (due to fans in denial).

Dr. Mario also does play rather different from vanilla Mario.

edited 20th Jun '15 12:10:16 PM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#76189: Jun 20th 2015 at 12:22:51 PM

My thoughts were that Chrom would be a midpoint between Ike and Marth (he uses Marth's sword, but is muscular like Ike and has a known tendency to smash through walls when training), and Lucina would be a midpoint between Chrom and Marth.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
MEKristian Since: Nov, 2009
#76190: Jun 20th 2015 at 12:23:36 PM

In this topic, we break down characters solely into numbers and frame data to evaluate their "Worth"...

Just another day in the Smash fandom, I guess...

powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#76191: Jun 20th 2015 at 12:27:05 PM

I don't care if a character I like is a clone. If I liked that character before Smash, I won't mind them sharing any move with another character. (I'm namely talking about Falco, but this could apply to Lucina and Dark Pit to a degree)

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#76192: Jun 20th 2015 at 1:07:56 PM

Am I the only one here that does not give a shit if someone is a clone of another character? I usually only think of it as "I want to play as a character I like, it doesn't matter to me if they're clones."

Especially with Lucina, as I think it's good for more niche franchises to have more characters and another female.

I don't really care if she's a clone or not. But I don't find that her inclusion actually adds much to the game, now that I've actually tried her, and there's no reason for me to pick her unless it's for her trophies or I'm forced to pick her, since she's basically Marth but worse. In f.ex. Dark Pit's case he does have traits that would make me pick him over Pit since I don't find him too inferior to his original, and I find that Dark Pit's properties also help set him apart from Pit more than Lucina's help set her from Marth. Dr. Mario basically updates his moveset and abilities from Melee, and it also helps that he can basically take Mario's former Down Special and dair alongside his own established Melee properties to become even more unique than before.

Meanwhile, Lucina doesn't score a single point over Marth that would make her a better fighter, or distinguish her from Marth (and also Roy).

From Awakening, we also have Robin who, despite the default/main gender being male, has the female version as an alternate costume. If Kamui is a fighter in the next game, this would apply to them as well.

In addition, Robin's Final Smash features Chrom, who is the actual Lord of Awakening and either the main hero or the secondary hero depending on how you look at it. Because of this, Awakening already has enough representation as is since it's main hero and secondary hero are already in the roster (even if one is only as a Final Smash). Lucina would only have been in as an alternate costume of Marth, but got her own spot and properties through what was essentially dumb luck instead of being planned from the get-go like Robin.

Also, heck, let's take a look at all the swordfighters and what they have:

Link: His sword is his main weapon.
Toon Link: He's basically the same person as above, but in kid form.\\ So the style he uses is similiar, but not exactly the same. He's notably more agile than his adult form.
Marth: Finesse and spacing.
Roy: Rushdown, agile, doesn't care much for spacing.
Meta Knight: fast, floaty, small, and weak.
Ike: Big, slow, and powerful.
Mii Swordfighter: Customizable.
Robin: Notably not portrayed as a master swordsman, even if he has a sword (two even). He's basically using his skills in strategy and magic knowhow to compensate for his swordplay.
Shulk: Stance fighter. He uses his Monado Arts to change the attributes of himself and his sword.

Lucina's speciality meanwhile is "Marth who is balanced across the blade" which is generic as all fuck. There's no real oomph in her swordplay. There's nothing that sets her apart from all the other peeps, and there's nothing about her that isnt already done by Marth (or Roy). Heck if we Luigified her, her gimmick would make her the most generic swordsman (swordswoman?) out of all of them, since there's nothing about her swordplay that actually stands out. She'd be the most boring swordfighter to play as.

I'm actually wondering how any of the clone characters would react to seeing people hating their inclusions. ESPECIALLY Dark Pit.

I'm sure there's a fanfic out there exploring the possibilities of that.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
DokemonStudios Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#76193: Jun 20th 2015 at 1:21:22 PM

With Dr. Mario, he is more like Melee Mario, since Dr. Mario doesn't have FLUDD, which Mario kept from Brawl. So I can forgive him a little. However with Dark Pit, he should've either had different weapons and not just different versions of an arms weapon or orbitars, or play like Pit from Brawl.

I do know that the clone characters can be declonified a bit. Maybe Toon Link can have a grappling hook instead of a hookshot, a deku leaf for his up B, remote bombs (which won't detonate until you throw them), and have his arrows cycle from fire to ice to light. Falco can change his up b into a wind or electric type move instead of fire, and have a completely different side B move.

I guess it kinda makes sense for Lucina to be a clone of Marth since she disguised herself as Marth in Awakening. Actually that's what made me angry. She pretty much spoiled the story of Fire Emblem Awakening. I only played the demo.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76194: Jun 20th 2015 at 1:23:57 PM

With Toon Link, I'd sooner make the Deku Leaf his Side-B, not his Up-B.

And for Fox and Falco's shared Side-B, I'd give Fox a new one while letting Falco keep his. His is fun to meteor smash with.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#76195: Jun 20th 2015 at 1:25:05 PM

Lucina is getting continuously buffed through patches so actually some people are not sure if Marth is still better than her or not, considering tippers are very situational.

Alucart23 Since: Jun, 2015
#76196: Jun 20th 2015 at 5:12:33 PM

i also dont care about whether or not a character is a clone, the mii fighters are basically just mixed special moveset clones, luigi has been a clone before they even made smash bros, and even then, there are differences between the "clone" and the "original" characters, like falco's reflector kick, or wolf's claw bayonet on his blaster! and gannondorf is a slower captain falcon in terms of special moves other than side b

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#76197: Jun 20th 2015 at 6:06:45 PM

Tippers may be situational, however, Marth play REVOLVES around getting into those situations. A good Marth is consistently and constantly hitting with tippers.

Lucina would have fared MUCH better as a Marth skin. Hell, she IS a Marth emulator in her own game. It would have worked better than bad!Marth that isn't as specialiced as Roy, and all in all afterthough character.

Doctor is a remade Melee character. Personally, I would have gone the Project M route and reintegrate his quirks into Mario, making that one a sturdier character, but that's a matter of subjective taste, and, all in all, Doc is the most distinct of the afterthough characters.

And Dark Pit... Well, he would have made a neat Pit alt, and probably would have made his customs more diverse (Electroshock Arm, Silver Bow and Dark Pit Staff as customs would have made quite a good show). Because their A moveset is VERY similar.

Seriously, Dark Pit and Lucina are as same-y as they get, even the Melee clones had different physics from their templates.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76198: Jun 20th 2015 at 6:38:00 PM

Lucina's interesting in regards to being a clone, even in this series, in that she's identical right down the normals - which iirc only Toon Link (who nevertheless varies substantially characteristically) and Dark Pit (has a unique Final Smash and a couple moves that function differently) do as well. She's basically the same character with slight universal effects differences, which make her more of a clone than Ken from Street Fighter (the best comparison I can think of are the hidden characters from Marvel Vs Capcom 1, some of whom were identical to other characters but with additions like super armor, or higher speed, or higher damage, etc).

edited 20th Jun '15 6:46:51 PM by KnownUnknown

Hungryguy I am a Rad Reptile. from inside a cheese wheel Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
I am a Rad Reptile.
#76199: Jun 20th 2015 at 6:54:20 PM

Dr. Mario's d-tilt actually sent characters flying behind him in Melee. It doesn't anymore, which is disappointing with all the pivoting the characters are able to do now. Just a small difference, but I'm surprised that seemingly nobody noticed the change.

Call me butter, because I am on a roll! 3ds friend code: 5258-0885-3903 Wii U: Bowser Charizard
Prowler I'm here for our date, Rose! Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
I'm here for our date, Rose!
#76200: Jun 20th 2015 at 7:02:39 PM

Man.

A bit late to the party, but Roy is really, really good.

Ryu is a lot of fun after getting used to, as well.

Didn't get Lucas yet.


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