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Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#74351: May 11th 2015 at 8:32:18 AM

[up] He said they were more complicated since they only shared specials, but not that they aren't clones.

As far as Dr. Mario is, I kind of want him to stay much like usual, since making him more different on line with being a semi-clone would kind of defeat the purpose behind his inclusion.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
BurntMario Oh hai TV Tropes from Your nightmares Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Oh hai TV Tropes
#74352: May 11th 2015 at 8:35:06 AM

[up] Heck, the suggestions I had would make the Doc closer to vanilla!Mario.

Call me Willy Whistle 'cause I can't speak, baby. Something in TV Tropes really drove me crazy.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#74353: May 11th 2015 at 8:45:15 AM

They literally only share two specials(and that's only if you count the Final Smash as a special). Side B has a completely different angle that only makes them slightly similar but overall unique moves. The Up B's main thing was that Fox's was on fire, and Wolf's was not. Again, similar, but the concept is the fire itself. Without it, it's a rather different move overall. If Wolf had another element that was not really much different(I.E. Electricity), it would be closer to the same move. Their Neutral B's are extremely unique, even moreso than Mario and Luigi's, which are nearly the same beyond color and direction. Their Down B's are also near identical. Really, Wolf only truly shares two moves with Fox, and only his Side and Up B are variations of his own. His Neutral B is ultimately a unique move with the only similarity is they're both firing a gun at best. But that's about as similar as Samus and Lucario's Neutral B's.

Lucas actually does have nearly all of Ness' B moves as is.(although any changes in Smash 4 may at best be his Final Smash, from what it looks like during the trailer, anyway) Other than slight tweaks, only their Down B's are somewhat different. Ness doesn't hold his out further, which changes how they're used overall(one is a barrier where the character is, the other is simply a barrier out in the front of them). Now, Lucas does shine with some very unique A moves. Notably, Falco is actually pretty similar to Lucas' differences, and has more unique A moves, making him thematically similar in the sense that they're both legitimate semi-clones. Only Wolf among any who have something similar to a previous character in the cast has the least overall. It's why some hesitate to even call him a semi-clone, and it makes sense. Sharing two exact moves(bar slight properties that actually barely change their usage, that is. Basically, Side B, Up B, and Neutral B are significantly different on Wolf compared to Fox. Down B and the Final Smash are not much different at all. Even if his Landmaster lasts a lot less longer, it has the same abilities/etc.), with 3 similar moves, and everything else being unique is barely much at all. Lucas has far more, and I'm pretty sure not all of his A moves were completely unique as well. Reskins of moves are fairly common among clones or other cast members. Many share moves in general. Falcon and Samus' Up A's are pretty much the same, and Ganondorf, despite being a clone, had the unique variant of it(it's still based upon Falcon's, but is much more unique).

It also depends how you define "clone move". To me, they have to have almost zero differences. If the move works highly differently(like Falco's Reflector as of Brawl and Smash 4), it's no longer a clone move. Having slight property differences(like Fox and Wolf's Reflectors) isn't separate enough. Where as using a different element or even a different direction of the move itself makes it quite a unique one. Let's note that generally those small tweaks happen to characters during balance patches, so it's not usually best to make a change to a move to make it a clone move when it could just as easily happen to their regular counterpart. Plus with customs, clone moves should be not tweaked so much that it replaces a custom move as well. Unless that clone has unique custom moves too that makes it a non-issue.

Shadow?
Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#74354: May 11th 2015 at 8:49:18 AM

Man, how long has it been since we had a discussion of what does or doesn't count as a clone? Like, it has to be at least twenty pages now — is that a new record?

Honestly, the term "clone" has become completely meaningless to me, on par with "geek" and "Mary Sue." It's kind of useless terminology now, I think.

"We're home, Chewie."
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#74355: May 11th 2015 at 8:54:30 AM

I'd say 3DS/U!Doc takes on some aspects of how the old Mario and Luigi worked, but is still his own character since he has the key things that make him Dr. Mario as opposed to regular Mario. In a way, I'd say he's another evolution of the basic Mario moveset; not as different as Luigi's moveset has become, but not really vanilla!Mario either.

  • His Super Jump Punch is more powerful at the start of the move, yet travels horiontally, similiar (but not entirely alike) 64!Luigi's SJP.
  • His Dr. Tornado is now more like the old Mario Tornado: sucks enemies in, then launches them, poorer mobility than Luigi Cyclone, rising strength is less powerful but doesn't require as many button presses or a jump to see it rise...
  • Since Dr. Tornado is still a down special, he keeps Mario's old multi-hit dair drill kick, though the animation (if not properties) makes it resemble Luigi's dair more now.
  • Dr. Mario differences like electric F-Smash, Megavitamins, Fair not meteor smashing, Sheet being poorer for recovery than Cape, etc. are mostly all there. What I find especially interesting is that while his F-Smash was changed to have similiar range to Mario's, the fact that it's true kill potential comes up if you hit with the Doc's hand instead of the electric ball that he now conjures is vintage Dr. Mario.

Maybe I should find that post I made regarding clone and semi-clone differences again...

edited 11th May '15 8:56:48 AM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#74356: May 11th 2015 at 9:01:30 AM

In Sakura's view, a clone has to share all the same animations for most of their moveset(that can include all of it). Taunts don't count. That's ultimately the one that defines who is a clone or not as well when it comes to this Wiki when referring to why their moveset was chosen, not necessarily the trope itself, which Moveset Clone is a bit different in design(namely because Sakurai won't allow any clones to be a unique slot unless they have actual differences. Something Moveset Clone cares nothing about it.)

Anyway, I can't wait for the next DLC character announcements. Besides hoping on Wolf, there's two others, but those are files found on it and more or less spoilers Ryu and FE!Roy. I wonder if any of those 3 will be announced during e3.

Shadow?
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#74357: May 11th 2015 at 9:23:51 AM

I don't believe Lucas or Wolf to be clones, but typically it's clone characters that end up cut, hence why I said they were a complicated case because while they're not clones exactly, they do seem to be very low priority like clones are. Especially considering we're only getting Lucas now.

MEKristian Since: Nov, 2009
#74358: May 11th 2015 at 9:47:37 AM

Also, for everyone saying "No, they'll get cut." The original post by Burnt Mario did say "Assuming they'd be playable in some form". So it's not a question of cut or not cut, it's a question of, "if they're not cut, do you think they'd be changed up to be less like clones."

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#74359: May 11th 2015 at 9:55:09 AM

Wolf and Lucas weren't that important to their base series. They were lower priority.

Shadow?
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#74360: May 11th 2015 at 10:22:51 AM

[up][up] Dr. Mario would likely keep his properties and Dark Pit might get more differences. Lucina would be mostly the same, unfortunately, since her very existence as a clone is because they wanted Easy Modo Marth.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#74361: May 11th 2015 at 10:25:23 AM

...Or maybe they added Lucina because they wanted Lucina to be in the game.

"We're home, Chewie."
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#74362: May 11th 2015 at 10:40:38 AM

She would have been in as an alternate costume if she weren't made into a clone so I doubt that the reason she was added to the roster was because they wanted her to be in... because she already was.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#74363: May 11th 2015 at 10:45:44 AM

Ah, gotcha. I misunderstood your point; my bad.

"We're home, Chewie."
TheHeroHartmut Too hot to hoot from Probably not right behind you (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Singularity
Too hot to hoot
#74364: May 11th 2015 at 12:01:54 PM

There is contextual precedence from FE:A's storyline for her being a Marth clone here, so she at least has that going for her. It's a shame she can't wear the mask for an entire match, though.

Switch FC code: SW-4420-1809-1805
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#74365: May 11th 2015 at 12:05:20 PM

Oh no!

[up]Not true. Even when in disguise as Marth, her fighting style is described as being identical to Chrom's.

edited 11th May '15 12:05:53 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Eskay64 Since: Nov, 2010
#74366: May 11th 2015 at 12:08:13 PM

I'm still disappointed that Lucina's mask taunt doesn't let her keep it until she taunts again. The whole time leading up to the game's release, I thought that was how it was going to work.

Alternatively, letting her keep it until she takes damage, like how her reveal in FE:A happened. That would be cool.

edited 11th May '15 12:16:12 PM by Eskay64

Laniv Since: Aug, 2010
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#74368: May 11th 2015 at 12:55:49 PM

Clooooaaaaaaaaaaaaanes.

let's talk about clones

cloanjknes

edited 11th May '15 12:56:07 PM by Fawriel

Laniv Since: Aug, 2010
#74369: May 11th 2015 at 1:01:31 PM

[up] All right then, I'll start with a confession.

I liked Pichu.

Keybreak (Long Runner)
#74370: May 11th 2015 at 1:03:01 PM

I also liked Pichu. He was cute and fast and his self-damaging made him an interesting challenge.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
Eskay64 Since: Nov, 2010
#74371: May 11th 2015 at 1:08:39 PM

I remember doing matches in Melee with just four Lv. 9 CP Us — one of Pikachu, Pichu, Jiggs, and Mewtwo. Somehow, Pichu won every time.

Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#74372: May 11th 2015 at 1:18:15 PM

guys

guys.

i was not serious.

please stop talking about clones

BlitzTrain Since: Apr, 2014
#74374: May 11th 2015 at 1:32:24 PM

Because this isn't the Starwars thread? tongue

edited 11th May '15 1:32:54 PM by BlitzTrain

powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#74375: May 11th 2015 at 1:40:55 PM

I still remember when one of my CAD classmates, who had never played a SSB game before in her life, won a Melee match as Pichu. To add to the hilarity, two of her opponents were Marth and Mario.

Though it's likely she won using items.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!

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