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Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#73476: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:07:15 PM

Why can't we just enjoy the game?

...Did I imply that I don't enjoy the game? I do. I very much enjoy the game. It's an awesome game. I also have a complaint with it. Am I not allowed to have criticisms for things that I like?

I'm not saying it's a huge deal, or that it ruins the experience. I'm not making a big deal out of the issue, I'm just trying to explain my opinion. Calm down, guys, jeez.

"We're home, Chewie."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#73477: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:09:48 PM

[up][up]Probably Ness's special moves, along with a Rising PK Freeze.

The legend has returned.
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#73478: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:10:06 PM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
TroPartner Since: Nov, 2014
#73479: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:13:28 PM

Wii Fit Trainer is fat-shaming?!?!

I would love to see where that came up...

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#73480: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:14:23 PM

Jesus this argument is fucking dumb.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#73482: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:17:33 PM

Jesus this argument is fucking dumb.
I think this statement might be truer than you think.

The fact that this argument exists in the first place? Yeah. Yeah, that is really fucking dumb. It's not about anything, but it sure is existing, alright.

edited 22nd Apr '15 2:18:24 PM by Fawriel

FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#73483: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:19:35 PM

I'm pretty sure Wii Fit was aimed at people in general who might need some exercise and a more healthy routine, not just females. Because you know, males are concerned about their health too.

Claiming that male Robin was chosen over female Robin to be the default one out of a coin flip or something or maybe he ships Robin with Lucina and wanted them to star together in the trailer, it's just as valid as claiming that it was because of cultural norms when there's no proof of that being the case.

Konkfan7 Konknitive Dissonance from Roselle Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Konknitive Dissonance
#73484: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:20:28 PM

... I think I should just quit this thread for the day.

Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#73485: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:21:18 PM

Fem!Wii Fit Trainer is the very image of the series.

Male!Robin was what you were locked into in Awakening's demo.

These things aren't nearly as arbitrarily decided as you're claiming.

edited 22nd Apr '15 2:22:19 PM by Demonfly

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#73486: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:22:28 PM

Honestly I don't think the reason for picking male Robin even matters so much as the effect that it causes fewer female characters on the select screen than could've been possible anD GORRAMMIT WHY AM I STILL ENGAGING IN THIS LINE OF DISCUSSION.

UM. UMMM. KING K ROOL IS TOO BIG. LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

"We're home, Chewie."
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#73487: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:23:28 PM

Fem!Wii Fit Trainer is the very image of the series

That might be true, but have you wondered why that might be.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
BlitzTrain Since: Apr, 2014
#73488: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:25:56 PM

Sure didn't stop Zelda, Samus, or PKMN Trainer in the previous games.

I don't see why that would affect anything with Zelda/Sheik or PKMN trainer since down-b to swap was part of their gimmick, that seems different from having link and toon link turned into alts of the same character using different mechanics each. As for Samus/Zamus, fair point.

I never could figure out how to use Zamus outside of activating a Final Smash though... Oh well.

Wii Fit Trainer is fat-shaming?!?! I would love to see where that came up...

There was some fuss about the way Wii-Fit categorized people into underweight/normal/overweight/obese categories according to Body Mass Index as a way of helping people track their fitness. Apparently some kids were getting told they were overweight/obese when there wasn't anything to actually worry about and didn't take it well.

Or something like that. Short version: BMI isn't the final word in physical fitness anyway.

Funny thing, at least from what I remember of playing Wii-Fit Plus, the balance board was closer to a main character than WFT. Either version of WFT makes a better Smash character though.

edited 22nd Apr '15 2:44:18 PM by BlitzTrain

Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#73489: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:26:00 PM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#73490: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:26:33 PM

[up][up][up][up]"Too big" has always been such a pathetic excuse. Why do you think that it became such a prolific meme? The fact that Sakurai actually had to double back on such a vapid statement - especially when it's been proven numerous times now that a playable Ridley can be done - speaks volumes about his tasteless views on space dinosaurs.

[up][up][up]I'm not really talking about the "why" so much as the "what"; the original claim was that the gender choices were entirely inconsequential to which one is default, while the very least I could point out is that it has precedence.

[up][up]It may have been what was intended, but the big thing about Zelda/Sheik was that most people played one while ignoring the other. That's why PKMN Trainer was so reviled in terms of function, and why Project M already beat 4 to the punch in separating everybody.

edited 22nd Apr '15 2:31:54 PM by Demonfly

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#73491: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:30:10 PM

[up]My God what have I done.

"We're home, Chewie."
Konkfan7 Konknitive Dissonance from Roselle Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Konknitive Dissonance
#73492: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:30:42 PM

edited 22nd Apr '15 2:37:02 PM by Konkfan7

Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#73493: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:33:19 PM

Could you, like, actually make points for your argument instead of vaguely insulting me?

About what? M!Robin being more important F!Robin? Sure, can do:

1. M!Robin is the only gender of the two on the character select screen and is also the default gender when chosen. This isn't much when taken on its own, but is strengthened by and helps strengthen other points.

2. M!Robin was shown for the majority of Robin's trailer, and the official artwork by Awakening's artist does not feature F!Robin at all.

3. In all translations I've seen, Sakurai refers to Robin as male pronouns. I would have dismissed this as translator convenience if I hadn't seen a piece where Sakurai refers to Wii Fit Trainer as female.

4. M!Robin is basically de facto gender used for when you fight Robin in Classic Mode and other modes. F!Robin randomly replaces M!Robin in All-Star Mode and is featured as an opponent in some Events, but M!Robin is clearly used more overall.

5. M!Robin is the main trophy (the one that uses the character's official render for it's pose) and is part of the Final Smash Trophy alongside Chrom. F!Robin is only used for the alt. trophies (and depending on the version, you must get M!Robin's trophy before you can get hers), neither of which feature her in her official render pose. And while the main trophy descriptions note that you have a choice in gender, they still refer to Robin as male throughout it.

6. There's actually another peculiar thing in regards to the trophies: First of all, let's review the female fighters, whether the fighter is an alt or not. That should give us this list:

Peach
Rosalina & Luma (Rosalina being the most important of these two in terms of publicity and being the one we actually control)
Wendy O. Koopa
Zelda
Sheik
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Jigglypuff (Inferred to be female, we don't actualy know.)
Robin
Lucina
Palutena
Villager
Wii Fit Trainer

Alright. Now let's review the trophy boxes. We have one wholly dedicated to the female fighters, using their alt. trophies for this. But there's actually only seven of these characters that go there. Let's see who these are:

Peach
Rosalina & Luma (since Rosalina is easily the most important of these two in terms of publicity and in regards of who we actually control)
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Lucina
Palutena
Wii Fit Trainer through the Super Hoop trophy (since WFT's alt is the male Wii Fit Trainer)

This leaves us with these characters:

Wendy O. Koopa
Sheik
Samus
Jigglypuff (Inferred to be female, we don't actually know.)
Robin
Villager

In regards to these characters, Samus already is represented in the Female Fighters box through Zero Suit Samus. Furthermore, Samus and some of the other characters on this list actually have their alt. trophies (or in Wendy's case, her trophy) go in another trophy box other than the one I've listed above. Here's where those alts go:

Wendy O. Koopa (Koopalings Trophy Box)
Samus (Other M Trophy Box)
Jigglypuff (Kanto Region)

Off the rest, only these are left, who have an alt. trophy that do not go anywhere:

Sheik
Robin
Villager

And in Sheik's case, since she is Zelda in disguise (and in fact used to be a transformation character with Zelda), she already is represented as a female fighter and thus doesn't need to have her alt up somewhere else. This is also true of Samus in that the alt. Samus trophy never needed to be put up at Female Fighters since she has something similiar going on with Zero Suit Samus, but the developers made the alt. trophy part of another box anyway...

It could be that they thought that normal Samus would do best at showing off her games while ZSS would be better at displaying her gender for purposes of the Female Fighters box. Sheik's alt's absence likely point to the fact that the developers felt the trophy wouldn't represent anything in particular, especially since the main Sheik trophy is already a part of the only box that matters in terms of Sheik's role in the Zelda series.

Which leaves us with only two female fighters left who are in the same position as Sheik, or actually even less so:

Robin
Villager

How funny that the two with the male gender as the default doesn't get to be in a trophy box. You can collect as many Fire Emblem or Animal Crossing trophies you want: F!Robin and F!Villager is not a part of any of the boxes, whether as series or group representation or as representation to the female fighter side of Smash.

And really, this is painfully obvious in F!Robin's case (which is the one I'm arguing here) as she is not a part of the Female Fighters box, nor is she a part of the Heroes of the Emblem box (the only box that focuses on the Fire Emblem series). What makes this especially glaring is that the other FE characters (including M!Robin) is on that box. Yes, we have Marth, we have Ike, we have Robin, we have Lucina. Heck, we even have Chrom (you know, the lord who's apparently on the butt end of didn't-get-in jokes), Lyn, and the other FE trophies, but not F!Robin.

As for the Final Smash Trophy, it made the cut to one of the boxes pertaining to the characters' Final Smashes.

Oh, and if you're wondering about the male Wii Fit Trainer (the alt of the Wii Fit Trainer), he actually got a spot on the Trophy Box regarding the Wii Fit U game. Unfair in regards to the other two gender alts? Absolutely. Undeniable that he did? Also a fact.

If F!Robin wasn't considered for any spot on any of the trophy boxes, it sure is yet another point to the fact that she's less important to Smash than M!Robin.

6. tl;dr: Female Robin got the shaft in terms of trophy representation on the Trophy Boxes, and this in turn strongly suggests that she's not as important to Smash than her male counterpart.

7. As a consequence of being the Robin from the main trophy, M!Robin is the amiibo that represents Robin in Smash. Like the first point, this is weak on it's own, but strengthens and is strengthened by other points. Indeed, a game outside of Fire Emblem where you can use your amiibos to call forth the Smash FE characters appears to only have M!Robin as your option out of the two Robins.

Now, for my personal opinions and thoughts on Robin in Smash:

The characters in Smash is implied to not be exactly the same as the characters from the series they come from (Exception: The Kid Icarus characters). Given that they standardized Robin and changed F!Robin in height and somewhat in with to make her much more like her male counterpart (in order to have them fight exactly the same), and also gave Robin the ability to use a tome he or she could never use in the class they're allegedly in, it supports this. The fact that Robin is suggested to be a more capable magic-user than a swordfighter also lend credence to this as Robin from Fire Emblem, while portrayed as favouring magic, could in reality be anything, whether a pure fighter, a pure caster, or something in-between. With this interpretation, Robin/Avatar can not only be truly genderless in the game they're from, but can actually have an established main gender in Smash since this Robin is not the Robin you customized for yourself.

Robin in Smash has appearance and abilities set in stone, and a somewhat different personality from the Robin we know in Awakening. Given that they're not described as anything but a good friend/companion to Chrom and Lucina, I'd also say that this Robin is probably not Lucina's husband or mother, and thus not Chrom's wife or father-in-law either.

I'd say the choice of M!Robin as the gender happened when Lucina was added as an alt costume. As Lucina is a warrior princess, having the other Awakening character be the male tactician, and someone who favours magic no less, would make for a perfect foil to Lucina. The decicion to make Lucina into a moveset clone might also have been influenced by this in order to better show off this sword-and-sorcerer bond (as otherwise, Robin would be somewhat bound to Marth (AKA the real one) who they don't actually have much of a bond with.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#73494: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:36:07 PM

[up][up]Most people don't outright signal the fact that they're trying to thump someone. In fact, that's one of the reasons at least one guy who followed this thread got banned himself.

Also, may I refer you back to this? Especially since you don't seem to want to participate in this thread's topics right now anyway.

edited 22nd Apr '15 2:36:31 PM by Demonfly

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#73495: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:36:47 PM

Thank you for directly insulting several people at once, the reaction to that action will be arriving shortly.

Yeah, no, I'm aware of what I'm doing. I've been in a terrible mental state for a while now, so it was definitely a mistake to get myself involved in an argument, but, you know, I kind of expected more out of y'all. Like, the only reason I started arguing was because Folt's post was getting kind of condescending and vaguely insulting and I couldn't figure out, why, at first. I thought resolving that mystery would mean everything's cool, but apparently everyone's too eager to see blood. I don't know.

But yeah, sure. If I'm getting banned for a while, I'll just have to find something else to do with my time, I guess. That's fair.

@Folt: Oh my god are you serious. Did you just write an entire dissertation on this. Did that just happen.

It's entirely too late at night for this. Night y'all, I'm outies.

edited 22nd Apr '15 2:38:35 PM by Fawriel

Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#73496: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:41:50 PM

So guys, how about them Smash Bros?

Aheheheh. That Kirby sure has a lot of hats.

Don't PM me. We don't like being PMed.
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
Eskay64 Since: Nov, 2010
#73498: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:43:45 PM

Kirby can't hear you over the sound of how awesome his hats are.

Paperbritt Since: Apr, 2013
#73499: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:44:13 PM

I would much rather argue about how the Koopalings are factually more important than Bowser Jr than this argument.

Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#73500: Apr 22nd 2015 at 2:45:59 PM

I'd actually be kinda curious to hear your reasoning.


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