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MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#72376: Apr 11th 2015 at 4:12:36 PM

@Irene: "Warranted" is a complete matter of opinion.

Oh, everyone's stating their opinion without feeling the need to affix "IMO" to everything they say. It makes discussions much less cumbersome.

Ganondorf is a lot like Toon Link, who is basically a replacement for Young Link. His clone status was appropriate for when he first appeared, but over time he gained many more distinctive abilities/equipment, which many fans would like to see replace his old moves.

People especially hate it when clones are more powerful than the original, making them feel a bit obsolete. That's a big reason why so many people hated Toon Link in Brawl.

I don't consider guys like Wolf to be clones, but I can easily see why people would think that. A character's B-moves are, by far, the flashiest and often the cornerstone in that fighter's strategies, making them really stand out in people's minds. The Boring, but Practical normal attacks quickly get forgotten or dismissed.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Hungryguy I am a Rad Reptile. from inside a cheese wheel Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
I am a Rad Reptile.
#72377: Apr 11th 2015 at 4:23:26 PM

[up][up] Oh yeah! I had a blast!

Call me butter, because I am on a roll! 3ds friend code: 5258-0885-3903 Wii U: Bowser Charizard
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72378: Apr 11th 2015 at 4:32:25 PM

[up][up] That wasn't the point of what I was quoting. The point was to not dismiss other people's opinions simply because you disagree.

That said, we know why Ganondorf is still a brawler, because in order to not have that, Sakurai is under the impression that adding a sword changes him too much. Now, here's the thing; You could easily just add the sword as part of the animation without really changing the key properties of the move. Sounds good, right? Well, let's also think about that; You're actually changing nothing but making them look different. It accomplishes nothing of actual value to improve Ganondorf's game or actually make him play in a more unique manner from Falcon(and using up resources for a graphical change that doesn't really do anything is easily a waste of time for developers. I am not saying it's a bad idea or that it shouldn't be done, but from their point of view, why waste time when it won't do anything? I've been working on game development stuff, and one thing to note is any graphical changes takes time and effort, and even money. If it doesn't pay off in the end, what's the point? It has to mean something. The Shinies in Pokemon mean something. It's something people love to get and is very rare to find, so it actually serves a purpose. It's more than a color change, it's programmed to be rare, so they took advantage of the idea to make it feel like an accomplishment. In addition, it's an excuse to release many DLC Pokemon as Shiny, and the Shiny Charm too. That's what I mean here, making it feel like it serves a purpose beyond "looking cool"). And he wants him to be a brawler for the most part anyway, as he refuses to change him. Now, also keep in mind Sakurai does not want to change any character so much to the point that past players cannot adapt. Ganondorf was not built to use a sword as a major part of him. Thus, you have to barely change it up enough to alienate no one while pleasing others. I think the custom moves did just that. He has a sword, finally. But his playstyle is not decimated.

I would like to quickly note that while Brawl changed him up a bit due to the speed change, in a faster game and having different overall hitstun/etc. he would actually fair quite differently against the cast. The actual gameplay itself is a factor too, and he wasn't changed severely overall beyond being made far slower. Most of his moves are pretty much the same, he was just de-cloned more basically.

[up] Excellent. Most important part as is~ Plus, why not just save up money. We're talking five dollars, man. XD That's how much Mewtwo is for both versions, and Lucas is probably not going to be more, since he takes less resources to make(his custom moves are there, and he clearly is going off of Ness' model a bit, so the time as well will be shorter. The biggest amount of time spent is going to be balancing right now, as they clearly have some of his moveset finished. He directly fought in battles in the trailer, not just pure cutscenes).

edited 11th Apr '15 4:36:00 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#72379: Apr 11th 2015 at 4:48:02 PM

Sakurai perspective and fan perspective aren't exactly known to mesh together well (see also: Ridley), so I don't really see the merit of arguing for the former when everybody else seems to be talking about the latter.

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72380: Apr 11th 2015 at 5:13:09 PM

And tons of fans enjoy playing as him without some sword because he actually is a Brawler in Zelda itself and is all about magic and power in general. The swords are a tool he uses selectively for a battle or two. The only time it's even notable to him as his key way to fight is solely in Hyrule Warriors. And it's two swords there too.

And adding two swords would require a complete moveset overhaul. I don't see how that would be a good idea when it'd alienate previous Ganondrof players. Just add a Toon Ganondorf instead if you want a sworddorf. At least that one barely fought using magic or brawling moves. TP Ganondorf turns into Beast Ganon to brutally fight Link right away. Then there's the horseback bit. And finally you have a short sword battle. The only time he made note of his Sage's Sword is to use it to kill the ones trying to kill him, and it just happened to be a good tool to fight Link later. That, and Ganondorf practically steals the story while not adding any merit to the storyline itself, as the Triforce is completely shruggable in that game, and even worse, Zant, who actually is key to the game without a doubt, is shafted entirely for this. All Ganondorf legitimately added in the game was some really well-done battles. He made the storyline rather bland and gave it a boring end by ruining a rather neat villain. He's good at doing this, mind you(FSA and HW comes to mind), but it tends to make the other villains less iconic in return, or at least memorable.

edited 11th Apr '15 5:15:18 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Sterok Since: Apr, 2012
#72381: Apr 11th 2015 at 5:18:12 PM

Since when was Ganondorf a brawler in the Zelda games? He's a magician in Ocarina and uses swords in the other games.

I suspect Lucas is basically done aside from balancing that will have to fix whatever problems the next update causes. He's just being spaced out to not cram too much at us at once.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#72382: Apr 11th 2015 at 5:23:20 PM

There was that time he punched the ground so hard the floor broke.

And when he crushed the Fused Shadows with grip strength.

I have a message from another time...
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#72383: Apr 11th 2015 at 5:26:12 PM

Or when he destroyed the sage of water with a punch.

Or the fact that he is 10 feet tall and built like a bear.

Plus, we already have Ike using a sword as a telephone pole.

Sterok Since: Apr, 2012
#72384: Apr 11th 2015 at 5:31:26 PM

Ganondorf is obviously physically strong, but he wasn't known for physical combat in Ocarina. That would be like making Ike's primary weapon an axe. Sure he can use them in his game, but that's not what he's known for.

edited 11th Apr '15 5:31:35 PM by Sterok

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#72385: Apr 11th 2015 at 5:34:15 PM

[up][up]I think you mean Ike uses a telephone pole as a sword.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#72386: Apr 11th 2015 at 5:35:55 PM

And what did he do in Ocarina? Float around and throw an orb.

Also, he was a last minute addition, and he got a Smash original moveset (Captain Falcon has the exact same claim to that moveset), not something based on a totally different franchise.

I used to think giving Ganondorf a new moveset and transfering the current one to Black Shadow would be neat, but now... It's been 14 years, Smash Ganondorf plays the way he does.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72387: Apr 11th 2015 at 5:36:08 PM

And chokeslammeed Link, and his artwork depicts him as a Brawler in OOT. He was not designed as a sword user by any means. The tech demo is the only time they were attempting to do that before WW. Likewise, what else would the Triforce of Power implement? Your strength. He turns into a huge creature with it to bat around Link every time he uses it. It's all about strength. He's never even really used it to do magic either. Ganon may have, but not Ganondorf(HW I am not counting as I haven't played through it enough to see how he uses the Triforce piece).

He is definitely a brawler, albeit a magical brawler. The style he's given in Smash heavily represents his abilities, albeit, in how he could easily implement them. Obviously he didn't use every move shown. He barely used the Sage's Sword, which actually is very similar to how he uses it in Smash as a custom move. To stab with extreme prejudice. The only other times was double sword usage, something that cannot be done without completely destroying his old moveset. You can manage to make him look like he's using his other single swords via animation swaps, but as noted, it's a waste of time unless the move itself has new properties. Speaking as a developer myself, you don't add things just for the sake of it when money and time is given to you, you use what the best option is while using a specific set of plans depending the game type. In Smash's case, the rule of thumb with characters is that they cannot be basically turned into a new one that plays nothing like the old one. They have to obviously be similar to their old self so players can easily adapt to their main and not feel left out. This is a pretty important business practice for fighting game sequels. You want the game to sell to old and new customers alike. Every change can hurt or help sales. And Smash is character driven more than most fighting games. Nobody was alienated with the moveset changes ultimately because each character still plays similar to the last. Now, respectively, the gameplay engine can make someone feel horrid(Ganondorf is a victim of this), but the characters themselves were never turned into something completely different. Some do feel more different than others, of course, cannot deny that(again, Ganondorf is the most changed, as even Bowser is still rather similar to his Brawl/Melee self, just having a few new moves), and some requires new strategy even. That's not bad. What is bad is taking it so far that previous players are turned off from their favorite guy. i cannot agree with that as a fan or a developer. I'm already very disappointed in how badly they shafted the mini-games in each new installment, and despite Brawl's generic Target Tests annoying me, Target Blast is even worse.

Shadow?
Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#72388: Apr 11th 2015 at 5:38:56 PM

Also, he was a last minute addition, and he got a Smash original moveset (Captain Falcon has the exact same claim to that moveset), not something based on a totally different franchise.
I'm aware of that. Doesn't mean it's justified in the two games after Melee when he was almost certainly planned from the start, y'know?

I used to think giving Ganondorf a new moveset and transfering the current one to Black Shadow would be neat, but now... It's been 14 years, Smash Ganondorf plays the way he does.
And hey, it's been fourteen years, Sheik's probably always gonna be Zelda's Down Special.

I sure said that!
Sterok Since: Apr, 2012
#72389: Apr 11th 2015 at 5:45:32 PM

When did he chokeslam Link in Ocarina? All I remember him doing was floating around throwing energy balls and lightning, along with the occasional punch to the ground. He rode a horse once, but even then he shot Link rather than punch him. As far as Ocarina is concerned (which is the only game that matters for his Melee appearance), he's a wizard before a fist or swordfighter.

I don't particularly think his current status represents his abilities very well. His character sure, but few of his actual skills are from Ocarina or Twilight. Which by now is fine seeing how long he's been like this, which means changing him is more effort than it's worth, but it doesn't mean he's a great representation of the Ganondorf found in Zelda.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#72390: Apr 11th 2015 at 5:53:16 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72391: Apr 11th 2015 at 5:56:38 PM

I shouldn't have made that a single sentence. He did that to Link in WW.

I do think he needs more direct magical non-physical moves too. But overdoing it kind of ruins his Smash persona. I'm not sure how you can do it just right. Especially since his Sword just happens to be tied to Warlock Punch now. I even some time back made a sword-moveset for him, while keeping most of his physical abilities and adding a bit of magic.

Shadow?
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#72392: Apr 11th 2015 at 6:26:29 PM

I've never fought Moon's Greninja and I never care to. I got my amiibos for smashing. And they're better than online fighting anyway. With all that lag there's never any objectivity anyway.

Some of the best Smash players began by just playing online (and that was in Brawl's time) so do not discount wi-fi battles just because there's some input lag, unless the lag is truly awful then it's hardly going to get in the way.

Plus CP Us read your inputs and have inhuman reaction time so all they do is make you develop bad habits from having to exploit their AI.

edited 11th Apr '15 6:27:02 PM by FullMoon

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#72393: Apr 11th 2015 at 6:28:23 PM

Looking over the cutscenes for F Zero GX, they could add Black Shadow... as a sword-wielding sorcerer.

I have a message from another time...
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#72394: Apr 11th 2015 at 6:31:09 PM

I did some online last night, but the lag simply made it frustrating. I still won more than I lost, but there were some points where I was robbed of victory by input lag, and that aggravates me.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72395: Apr 11th 2015 at 6:35:06 PM

[up][up] Honestly, I would laugh if they did that. But I'd prefer they didn't only because i think the fanbase would be really pissed off that Black Shadow got the sword. And I still support Ganondorf somewhat having a sword, just not as much as how Link or Shulk uses ones. Maybe a more or two move would be neat.

I still gotta finish up a bunch of Classic mode etc. on the 3DS before I get the update, if only because the A.I. being improved will make it much harder.

Shadow?
Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#72396: Apr 11th 2015 at 6:36:57 PM

I seem to end up hooked up to Latin America more often than not for some reason, and while I know it's not their fault that doesn't change the fact that they're a long ways off and a lot of them have connections that'd be shaky over relatively short distances.

At least I have my "Arm Rotor them to death" strategy for really, really badly lagging matches.

I sure said that!
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#72397: Apr 11th 2015 at 6:37:09 PM

1 or 2 moves?

How about making one of his Warlock Punch variants into a sword stab?

I have a message from another time...
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72398: Apr 11th 2015 at 6:47:01 PM

Beyond that. XD Like one of his A moves or even a throw.

Shadow?
TroPartner Since: Nov, 2014
#72399: Apr 11th 2015 at 7:13:09 PM

[up][up]Uh, that's already a custom move. I've seen it myself.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#72400: Apr 11th 2015 at 7:20:47 PM

If it was an appropiate sword (like Demise's), and not the awkward TP one, it could be neat.

Still, swords are not usually associated with brutality. Still, could make for a neat U-tilt, but Ganon's elephant kicking legs have won my heart after so long.


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