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TroPartner Since: Nov, 2014
#72351: Apr 11th 2015 at 10:33:32 AM

Well, he was cloned from Mew DNA, so of course he is.cool

Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#72352: Apr 11th 2015 at 10:35:16 AM

[up][up] How many times have people said that to try to be smartasses, I wonder... tongue

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
IrishZombie Since: Dec, 2009
#72353: Apr 11th 2015 at 10:38:01 AM

Luigi is a semiclone of Mario.

After all, he shares quite a lot of his DNA with him.

Keybreak (Long Runner)
#72354: Apr 11th 2015 at 10:44:36 AM

All the characters are clones because they're trophies.

._. |: .-. :| ._.

Less pedantically, this page describes clones.

Clones are not bad. They're different characters with familiar moves. I'd always rather have more fighters than fewer, and clones offer a challenge.

True I seldom use them, but it's the PRINCIPLE OF THE THING.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#72355: Apr 11th 2015 at 11:13:15 AM

Back in my day, Luigi was a Mario clone and Jigglypuff was a semi-clone of Kirby, and by gum, no one complained!tongue

Don't PM me. We don't like being PMed.
Kuroxeng Moved accounts because meh from error 040 Since: Mar, 2015
Moved accounts because meh
#72356: Apr 11th 2015 at 11:17:09 AM

I was the one who asked to fight Moon. Because in TV Tropes, you are not a Smasher untill you fight Moon's Greninja.

Also, 3 people ganging up on me in free for alls happens depressingly often.

And I accomplished something today: Got my first online book KO! Sort of. Fiflthy G&W stole the kill with his uair, but I still won the match. waii

Moved handles because meh
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#72357: Apr 11th 2015 at 11:17:18 AM

I never considered Jigglypuff a clone. Sure she's round and she can fly like Kirby, but the rest of her is too different.

Clones are like the same character but just with their appearances and moves slightly tweaked. Jigglypuff as an actual clone of Kirby would be...

Cooler probably, but very unlike herself.

^I've never fought Moon's Greninja and I never care to. I got my amiibos for smashing.

And they're better than online fighting anyway. With all that lag there's never any objectivity anyway.

edited 11th Apr '15 11:18:42 AM by Keybreak

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
IrishZombie Since: Dec, 2009
#72358: Apr 11th 2015 at 11:20:54 AM

Well, I finally completed all the All-Star related challenges that aren't "clear on hard with everyone", and I still have a few hammers in reserve. Now I can finally play through All-Star with everyone like a sane person.

Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#72359: Apr 11th 2015 at 11:23:55 AM

I'm fine with them as extras, but it will never ever not bother me that Ganondorf still thinks he's Captain Falcon.

I sure said that!
Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#72360: Apr 11th 2015 at 11:26:37 AM

Sure she's round and she can fly like Kirby, but the rest of her is too different.

You've never paid attention to their non-Special animations or anything? Even in 4, it's very noticeable.

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#72361: Apr 11th 2015 at 11:37:01 AM

Even in Melee, Falco had a few different properties from Fox. He jumps higher and his blaster is slower than Fox. I think he runs slower than Fox.

Please stop pretending that a term's definition is whatever benefits you the most.

No one can/wants to agree on what a "clone" actually is; it's another example of a blurry word that everyone just uses to attack or defend whatever they hate or like. But right now you're saying that a character is not a clone if they have "a few different properties". That is ridiculous. Please think about what you're saying before you post it.

... I won't even try to join this discussion because I'm all debated out and a little disenchanted, but I still reserve the right to drop some constructive criticism. (Please accept it as such. I don't mean to insult you, but you'll have to learn how to have a proper discussion at some point.)

powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#72362: Apr 11th 2015 at 11:51:08 AM

[up]I'm not arguing that Melee!Falco was not a clone, I'm just saying that even then he a few differences.

Granted most of Melee's clones had differences from their "parents".

Heck, most of the clone characters in general will have some differing properties, but will still be clones because they have the same movesets.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72363: Apr 11th 2015 at 12:00:54 PM

In reality, Dark Pit and Lucina were the only two characters to be severely close to their counterpart. Everybody else has had some major differences overall. Even in Melee, you could tell there were some big differences. Dr. Mario was actually the closest one to his counterpart at best, and also became the most unique of the clone trio in 4.

There's no question Falco was still different. But he was still a clone regardless.

Keep in mind also that yes, Jigglypuff was created by using many of Kirby's animations and moves, while still being unique as well. She didn't steal that much to the point of being a clone by Sakurai's definition(as she was too different), but she wasn't severely unique in the first game regardless. She got different each game anyway, removing the "semi-clone" status as people defined it.

As for Ganondorf, I think too many forget that even his own OOT artwork showed him ready to punch Link's lights out and the only real weapon he had was a knife at best. He entirely fits the brawler archtype by his own abilities. He can easily do all of that due to his magic. He's just incorporating it differently. Plus, considering how Zelda uses her magic, I like that Ganondorf uses it in a completely different manner overall. I'm not against Dead Man's Volley, mind you, but I feel it fits the character extremely well. The customs adding a sword attack or two is fine as well, as he did start using them, but it wasn't all he had going for him. Sworddorf is something I honestly don't find interesting about him, except his WW variant who uses two. The other ones were not notable for being a very unique fight at all. Fun, yes, but unique, no. I don't believe being swordified would make Ganondorf interesting at all if it's just one sword. It's been done. Too often. Two swords is not a main fighting style yet(although Pit/Dark Pit partially uses it, but it's not entirely focused upon. It's just a select amount of moves, not the major character style).

Shadow?
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#72364: Apr 11th 2015 at 12:15:50 PM

Eh. Two swords, one sword... It all comes down to hitboxes and math in the end.

I have a message from another time...
Eskay64 Since: Nov, 2010
#72365: Apr 11th 2015 at 12:22:58 PM

You know, I'm curious if there are any tournaments that are designed with different Damage Ratios/Launch Rates anywhere. I imagine that there'd be somewhat of a different metagame if the game were set at 0.5 Damage Ratio.

edited 11th Apr '15 12:25:20 PM by Eskay64

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72366: Apr 11th 2015 at 12:26:05 PM

Never heard of one, but I think it could really help. I wish Brawl attempted that with higher ratios to make the games go a bit faster. KO's were too difficult due to the slow speed and extremely high defense options.

It'd need testing, as that damage ratio could make a huge difference in the meta, or every little.

Shadow?
Hungryguy I am a Rad Reptile. from inside a cheese wheel Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
I am a Rad Reptile.
#72367: Apr 11th 2015 at 1:38:18 PM

Guys, my school's Smash tournament has started! Hooray!

Call me butter, because I am on a roll! 3ds friend code: 5258-0885-3903 Wii U: Bowser Charizard
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#72368: Apr 11th 2015 at 2:25:19 PM

I never considered Jigglypuff a clone. Sure she's round and she can fly like Kirby, but the rest of her is too different.

It's mostly to do with Jigglypuff's moveset in the original Super Smash Bros. Just about all of her normal moves were shared with Kirby in some way. Melee made her her own character who happens to share some moves with Kirby but prior to that, she truly was a semi-clone.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Enderspy (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: In bed with a green-skinned space babe
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72370: Apr 11th 2015 at 3:02:27 PM

The definition I use for clones is more similar to the concept behind something like Shotoclone, and the one you see used most often for other fighting games (since complete clones are super rare in fighting games, especially these days) - characters that share a basic design/model and has moves that are largely variations on the same set: while these clones may have different normals and some unique traits, they're still offshoots or copies of the same general design.

Note that Tropes Are Not Bad is very strong for this sort of thing. I think the issue that gets flak the most is rarely that a character is a clone per se (a long as they're still unique enough) as much as the idea that games that do have clones tend to have a lot of them (which Smash does).

edited 11th Apr '15 3:03:01 PM by KnownUnknown

KSoniK Since: Jan, 2015
#72371: Apr 11th 2015 at 3:09:21 PM

Generally people make a much bigger deal out of the amount of clone characters and how cloney they tend to be than warranted.

edited 11th Apr '15 3:24:32 PM by KSoniK

powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#72372: Apr 11th 2015 at 3:18:07 PM

72367: I wish my high school was that awesome.

I don't know how many students at my HS would attend a Smash tournament. My friends would, but idk much beyond that.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72373: Apr 11th 2015 at 3:20:33 PM

"Warranted" is a complete matter of opinion. It's not honestly unjustified either. Smash barely had clones in 64. Only Luigi and Jigglypuff came close, but they also felt highly unique.

Street Fighter was pretty infamous for its clone issues, and Mortal Kombat did that to a degree too. Smash was not a major game with clones in it. It was mostly unique fighters. Far more than many games could even preach. Now, I'm not sure exactly why, but one could argue that Smash is supposed to be more about uniqueness than reusing movesets. I'd actually love to see more of why they despise clones so much. I mean, I've heard "laziness" as a reason they think it's annoying, and obviously the rehashed "Ganondorf must use a sword"(which he didn't even when introduced, and was even advertised as a melee/magic fighter) comes up often. I do agree that Ganondorf really doesn't concentrate on magic in a way that's like how he is in the games. But I do believe his roughhouse style is extremely fitting for his character. He's got a murderous vibe to him. You don't need immense magical tricks or weapons to pull this off. He just has the power and will show it with no tricks needed. I kind of like that he's a straightforward brawler in design. Obviously this is why he's so easy to fight in Brawl/4 and why he's not high tier by any means. He can't pull mind games well enough. But it feels so satisfying destroying a Fox with your Up Air alone. That's what I love about him; every hit he makes(without custom moves/equipment anyway) feels like a brick being slammed into an enemy. Or whatever analogy you want to use. He hits hard, yeah.

Shadow?
Hungryguy I am a Rad Reptile. from inside a cheese wheel Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
I am a Rad Reptile.
#72374: Apr 11th 2015 at 4:00:57 PM

Welp, I came in second. It's a real shame to, I could've used the prize money to buy Lucas. At least I did better than I thought I would.

Call me butter, because I am on a roll! 3ds friend code: 5258-0885-3903 Wii U: Bowser Charizard
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72375: Apr 11th 2015 at 4:12:25 PM

Lucas' price isn't even known yet. tongue

That said, too bad. Well, did you have fun?

Shadow?

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