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Eskay64 Since: Nov, 2010
#72326: Apr 10th 2015 at 2:41:25 PM

One of the main problems I have with Smash 4 is that "violent jabbing" thing. When I use the C-stick to smash attack, I WANT TO SMASH ATTACK DAMN IT.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#72327: Apr 10th 2015 at 4:16:54 PM

Yeah...

I've been thinking a lot about Mega Man X and...

...I kinda voted for X just now.

Yeah, I know I already voted for Zero a while back and X does show up in Mega Man's Final Smash and as a trophy and as a DLC costume for the Mii Fighters, but I guess I couldn't help myself. tongue

Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#72328: Apr 10th 2015 at 4:29:12 PM

Cue people who think that X'd just be a clone or the equivalent of Adult Link to Toon Link. >_>

Don't PM me. We don't like being PMed.
Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#72329: Apr 10th 2015 at 5:17:23 PM

Considering SSB's track record with this kind of thing, it isn't exactly an unfounded conclusion.

*keeping hopes low and waiting for a Starforce costume on characters I never use*

edited 10th Apr '15 5:19:10 PM by Demonfly

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#72330: Apr 10th 2015 at 5:44:31 PM

Well I'm home now and hey I'm still able to keep myself counscious. That's already better than most Fridays.

Now who was it that wanted to play with me again?

powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#72331: Apr 10th 2015 at 7:08:48 PM

I think X could work with a different moveset. The only attacks I can see him sharing with Classic are the neutral A (shooting out of the buster), Side Smash, and the final smash.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
kablammin45 Catch my shiny metal birb! from Misty Brook (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Catch my shiny metal birb!
#72332: Apr 10th 2015 at 7:20:33 PM

[up] Fifty bucks says that that wouldn't stop half the fanbase from crying "Clooooooooooooooone!!!!111!!!"

edited 10th Apr '15 7:20:48 PM by kablammin45

"I'm glad I don't wear shoes or else I'd have to always get shoes in two different sizes. ...If you know, you know!"
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#72333: Apr 10th 2015 at 7:22:26 PM

See Lucario only having one move in common with Mewtwo.

Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#72334: Apr 10th 2015 at 7:23:51 PM

X's Final Smash is the Nova Strike, duh. Equip Ultimate Armor, dash through everything.

Don't PM me. We don't like being PMed.
powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#72335: Apr 10th 2015 at 7:24:15 PM

You know I really wish the fandom would stop calling characters clones for only sharing a few moves with a character. Falco and Wolf are very different from Fox.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#72336: Apr 10th 2015 at 7:24:20 PM

I once jokingly said that Mewtwo was a clone of Samus - a big, floaty character with the same Neutral-B - and people couldn't tell at first that I was joking. That's how bad things are among the fanbase.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72337: Apr 11th 2015 at 12:09:24 AM

Well, it's obvious that Shadow Ball has some similarities to Charge Shot.

But that's kind of it. They both also do have a lot of elemental A moves.

Mewtwo probably had little inspirations from her, and even moreso from Ness, as their jump is extremely similar. Lucas too. It might be a psychic thing?

That aside, Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere are still highly different. The fact they don't come out in the same manner(one is straight and one is wavy) can change everything in battle. Aura Sphere is way easier to dodge, whereas Shadow Ball could still hit you if you didn't dodge for a long enough time. Also, their Side B directly affects something in front of them, forcefully affecting the opponent as well. Their Up B's are highly passive, and their Down B's somewhat counter the opponent's movement.

I see some similarities conceptually, as their A moves feel quite similar in the fact they're both creating energy attacks for nearly every move. There's no denying they're highly different, obviously. But I can clearly see how Lucario has some similarities to Mewtwo, even if they really only share one very similar move overall. I feel like Ike could've been what Roy would be if he was updated as well(albeit, minus Aether). If you take a look at Roy, it almost feels like Ike is the perfect update to the character, with a fiery power and the right sense of ferocity. It's quite clear their Neutral B's are pretty much the same in concept, except for one tiny difference, and it's that the direction they send characters in are different. Roy does a full swing, while Ike jettisons them upwards.

That said, I'd love it if Roy become a semi-clone of Ike. Also, his original Flare Blade animation could still be used, considering that Marth/Lucina and even Ike all have unique animations. Blazer would still be a clone move by design, but perhaps his custom moves could be similar to how Marth's are, or even somewhat like Ike's.

To be clear, I feel like Lucario is a Spiritual Successor to Mewtwo, like with Ike for Roy. I highly doubt this was anywhere near intentional of course, but it does look that way. The only blatant one is Toon Link for Young Link(and even Young didn't get a Trophy in Brawl or Smash 4, even more signifying what Toon Link's role is, being the exact same as Young Link). Speaking of, I hope they try to add some more costumes as is. Honestly, with Little Mac having 16, I would even care if they added an uneven number to some. Toon Link could easily have Conductor Link(as they're meant to be the same basic character as is. Toon Link's trophy even states his game so far are Wind Waker and Spirit Tracks, killing the theory that Conductor Link is supposed to be treated as someone unique in Smash), Mario his Hawaiian shirt from Sunshine, maybe more colors for Zero Suit Samus' casual clothes, and Pikachu could have the female alts from ORAS as well. Charizard has shiny colors even, and perhaps he could get a more direct Ridley costume, and not just a purple alt. I think this would please Ridley fans enough, and it as a personal bias, but I do hate the Purple Charizard joke(seriously, it's even the wrong shade of purple...), but eh.

I guess Link could get the Magic Armor from TPI(I forgot if he has it in Smash...) and maybe a direct SS alt instead of a simple clothing change. Hard to say. I forgot if Zelda had a Hilda coloring. That said, Sheik could seriously use a design far more similar to Impa as one, but only if the other lady isn't getting in. I also wouldn't mind if the other Captains stepped up as Olimar alts. I don't honestly feel there's enough new Pikmin to justify a second character overall(besides an enemy at best being playable), since they need to be somewhat unique, and Rock Pikmin do not stand out from the Purple Pikmin at all. Ganondorf needs his HW attire. Flowing hair might be an issue, but he's awesome even without it. >_> Wario could get more colors or colorings based upon some of his Wario Land forms. Vampire Wario would look great, imo.

That's all I can think of for alts/costumes.

Shadow?
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#72339: Apr 11th 2015 at 1:14:45 AM

Falco is Fox's Dr. Mario, he is a clone.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#72340: Apr 11th 2015 at 1:50:01 AM

One way to make X not a clone from his predecessor is to give him one of his main gimmicks, the ability to charge weapons he acquires from the Mavericks.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72341: Apr 11th 2015 at 6:30:51 AM

Falco really only worked that way during Melee. Since Brawl, he's been a semi-clone(as in only sharing a fairly small bit of moves with their counterpart) for a while now. Even more so in Smash 4 where you can can't even much see them as similar beyond some of their B moves. He feels just as unique as Wolf does in Brawl, ultimately. They changed up Falco's moveset heavily for 4, to further diversify them. They only share 4 B moves by that point(as his Reflector stopped being a clone move in Brawl and was completely different. Can't use them similarly at all due to their properties), which includes the Final Smash. Up, Side, and Neutral B, as well as Final Smash are the biggest things Fox and Falco have in common, and all of them still have property differences as well. Falco got changed up quite a bit in Brawl, but by Smash 4, he's just way too different. He's like Luigi is now, barely a semi-clone at best, and that's pushing it. Ganondorf is still the only one of the original clones to still share most of their moveset with their counterpart. Toon Link only has the specials and Final Smash, but has a huge amount of variation at this point(not that he doesn't share a lot of moves, but Ganondorf would still have more). Both are semi-clones currently. The only characters that are clones are the trio(Dark Pit, Dr. Mario, Lucina) in Smash 4. Period. Everybody else is significantly different from their similar counterparts, even if they used to be a clone in the past.

I think quite a few people forget that what made characters a clone was animations being re-used and the moveset overall being nearly the same. The properties were different among nearly every clone, but the animations were what made clone moves actually cloned. That's a huge reason why the clones existed in Melee, reusing animations. There are tons of re-used moves among clones and non-clones, so sharing a few means nothing. The animations were practically the same for both characters for nearly their entire moveset, and that is actually what defined a clone when Sakurai designed the games. Brawl had no real clones at that time(Toon Link is the closest, as Ganondorf was simply updated) added. Smash 4 had three total added. Melee had six, and 64 had simply one(being Jigglypuff, who was pretty much sharing most of Kirby's moves via animations, and part of why she was chosen over Mewtwo. She did have major Japanese popularity, but was significantly easier to make as well. If you think about it, the only thing Mewtwo even has is a very similar jump to Ness, and Shadow Ball could've been a modification of Charge Shot. That's literally it. Even Confusion worked highly differently from normal reflectors. It did no damage. Could've been an oversight in the programming, as he could affect the characters as well, and seeing as how it does help with some glitches... it likely had been programmed oddly).

I would not mind having more clones added as DLC, but only vets. Pichu honestly feels like a good choice just because he happens to work well with the Rage mechanic. I also enjoyed him highly in Melee(Pikachu felt awful, even if he's overall better tier-wise, he was no fun. But that's due to the moveset change, and I'm not talking about the nerfs either. I loved that Up Air, which even came back for Smash 4. Pichu for whatever reason felt fun. Albeit, him being the ultimate counter to Giga Bowser helped a little. tongue). Of course, I cannot see Roy coming back as his old clone form. Not with Lucina around. If he was based more around Ike or had a more unique moveset(of course, Counter and Flare Blade are pretty much the two moves there's no reason to change out. Like, do you really expect a Fire Emblem character to not have Counter at this point? And Flare Blade was pretty much his most notable move in Melee. It may also help that it has a unique animation as of 4 since Marth now stabs instead of swings, with Lucina following the same animation). I can't think of any other vets that could apply, and if Sakurai had a fun idea for someone else, and could be cheaper than normal characters, I'll take more clones as long as they're fun to play overall. Also, I will note that I prefer any clone to be a bit more unique than Dark Pit. His properties(which could be more changed with the patches) are too much like Pit's. I don't mind the animations being the same, of course, but they actually should play a bit more differently than currently. Don't need other weapons added to Dark Pit either, just damage/lag/knockback differences done a bit more. It does seem obvious that they had little time to make Dark Pit, though, but there's also the fact that he's supposed to have the same exact statistics of Pit in the home game, being a literal clone of him there too, so... at least it makes sense.

Shadow?
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#72342: Apr 11th 2015 at 6:36:44 AM

Dr.Mario is arguably a semi-clone because he acts as sort of a middle ground between Mario and Luigi currently, Lucina and Dark Pit are the only true clones in this game.

Also yes I do expect a Fire Emblem character to not have a counter because Robin doesn't have one.

edited 11th Apr '15 6:44:37 AM by FullMoon

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72343: Apr 11th 2015 at 7:19:45 AM

I keep forgetting he/she doesn't. Although to be fair, he's the only magical swordsman. tongue

The more normal ones always did(and there's 4 normal ones).

Dr. Mario doesn't apply as a semi-clone, though. He shares nearly every move with Mario and the same animations. Having two different animations(Doctor Tornado and his Down Air) entirely(as Mega Vitamins is still basically a reskin of the Fireballs, even if it has its own properties, it's quite clearly based upon it) doesn't change this. He's definitely a clone. Semi-clones barely have any of the same moves/animations as their counterpart. But they also share similarities in aesthetics. Toon Link is still a version of Link, and has tons of similar moves as well, despite different properties. Or did during Brawl. In 4, he's even further unique, and can barely apply for the semi-part now. Wolf isn't even that close to a semi-clone, with sharing less than 1/4 of his moveset with Fox. Falco still had a decent amount of clone moves during Brawl, which is why people label him a semi-clone, since he still hasn't been changed up enough from his counterpart to be fairly unique.

I wish Sakurai would be a bit more specific on how he defines it. Clones share more than half of their animations. Semi-Clones have less than half of the same moves. The rest don't apply, even if they share a few moves. This is the closest possible to define it as. Also, to be clear, I'm pretty sure Sakurai does not even use the term Semi-Clone either. He has pretty much defined Clones as reusage of model animations for moves, and only that. Also, by Word of God, Dr. Mario is still a clone anyway. He is not different enough from Mario to be a semi-clone by any means, as noted, he has two different moves. He does have more property differences, but his animations are still nearly identical.

Shadow?
BurntMario Oh hai TV Tropes from Your nightmares Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Oh hai TV Tropes
#72344: Apr 11th 2015 at 7:28:34 AM

[up] I'm pretty sure Sakurai thinks that the only clones in 4 are Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit, considering the fact that they were last-minute additions and were once literally skins of their "parent" characters. I'd say there wasn't anyone you could consider a true clone in Brawl, since the development team had more time to tweak Ganondorf's moveset without completely changing it, as well as give Toon Link (who's Young Link from Melee in essence) some different properties from regular Link.

Call me Willy Whistle 'cause I can't speak, baby. Something in TV Tropes really drove me crazy.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#72345: Apr 11th 2015 at 8:33:28 AM

The reason they were able to be clones was reusing the animations. Wasn't just a costume thing alone. Animations being re-used were the only thing that even made clones possible for Smash.

Toon Link is what I prefer to call a semi-clone for that reason, but he definitely shared a lot of moves with Link. This is far more different in 4, of course.

And yeah, there's no question that no other real clones exist by Sakurai's definition. Again, it would be nice if he acknowledged semi-clones, but that's not really more than a fan definition for those who share a huge amount of the moveset, but not enough to be identical in almost every animation.

Shadow?
MEKristian Since: Nov, 2009
#72346: Apr 11th 2015 at 9:29:54 AM

Well, since we're on the subject of clone characters and how to differentiate Dark Pit has come up... I'll throw out my "not-competitive-or-even-very-good-really" thoughts on what to do with nis clone newcomer stablemate.

And I think that the biggest problem for Lucina is that she's basically "discount Marth". Theoretically, not having the Tipper mechanics should mean Lucina doesn't have to play the same kind of spacing game as Marth to be effective... but from everything I've heard, that is how to play her effectively. So the addition of a different sort of play-style to her core concept, or just swapping out the Marth spacing game for something else could go a long way to differentiate her.

Just my two-cents on the subject. Am probably wrong.

Also give her the Meele-style swing animation for Shield Breaker, but that's more of a "if she returns to become more of a semi-clone" kind of idea.

powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#72347: Apr 11th 2015 at 9:30:43 AM

Even in Melee, Falco had a few different properties from Fox. He jumps higher and his blaster is slower than Fox. I think he runs slower than Fox.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
BurntMario Oh hai TV Tropes from Your nightmares Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Oh hai TV Tropes
#72348: Apr 11th 2015 at 9:37:56 AM

I suppose our line between original character and clone is much blurrier than Sakurai's. In his mind, a character is either unique or a clone; there is no such thing as a "semi-clone." So even if Falco and Ganondorf still share moves with Fox and Falcon, respectively, they were "de-cloned" in the transition from Melee to Brawl. I don't think Sakurai has ever heard of the term "Luigification," especially since Luigi himself might as well be a unique character at this point.

Call me Willy Whistle 'cause I can't speak, baby. Something in TV Tropes really drove me crazy.
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#72349: Apr 11th 2015 at 10:20:05 AM

I'd say Dr. Mario is borderline semi-clone, but he still shares too many similiarities with Mario to be considered one. Not that this is a bad thing in this case as he's the SSB4 clone character that is closest to having the needed key differences from his "parents" (by virtue of having properties from Melee Dr. Mario and Melee Mario that SSB4 Mario doesn't have on top of actually having movement differences this time around).

On the flip-side, characters like Toon Link borderlines the other way somewhat, but have the key differences to distinguish themselves from their "parents".

edited 11th Apr '15 10:21:26 AM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#72350: Apr 11th 2015 at 10:28:49 AM

Mewtwo is a clone.

I have a message from another time...

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