Since I didn't get to post before, here's my two cents on Faw's rant from a few pages ago:
You have to consider what makes sense when making a character's moveset. Pit's bow-swords make sense because that's a weapon you could logically expect from his world. Giving Chrom a sword version of Arcfire doesn't make any sense whatsoever. That's one of the reasons why people want a spear character; it moves and attacks differently than a sword or an arm cannon. You can't just give any character any move, else you end up with this abomination
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That would be a problem. Modified question: What if, you could charge Down Throws?
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This is gonna sound kinda like a 180 from my previous post on moveset mechanics, but part of why it took me a while to respond was because I think I get Faw's point, which can be explained as such:
Don't do Sakurai's job for him.
Everyone gets so caught up with creating move lists that people try to use them to justify newcomer choices. Don't worry about the move lists. Part of Sakurai's job is to handle the move lists. Just give him a good conceptual idea and trust him to spin it to something golden.
(I say "kinda" because I think character concepts can influence potential playstyles, and I feel that my original post can still pertain to the veterans.)
edited 8th Apr '15 8:13:24 AM by Watchtower
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I'm reminded of how one of the main reasons people were interested in Dark Pit coming in was because he would clearly have this unique and innovative moveset that properly reflects his debuting game.
I've actually seen a handful of FG opponents who keep expecting a throw and don't bother trying to break out, usually netting them about 10-20% more damage than they normally would have gotten just from the grab.
I sometimes manage to get in about five pummels in as Bowser, oddly enough. Then I can end up getting about 20 with Kirby.
Call me butter, because I am on a roll! 3ds friend code: 5258-0885-3903 Wii U: Bowser CharizardLucina, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario are easily the weakest choices among the newcomers, because they're clearly there to pad the roster with fanservice. Dark Pit is probably the most agitating because Sakurai could've made up for shilling the Evil Twin by tapping more into the buttload of weapons from Kid Icarus Uprising. I'm reminded of Cole and Evil Cole from Playstation All Stars Battle Royale, where they're literally the same guy but at least have different playstyles.
Dr. Mario is almost justified in that he still has the Tornado for his Down B, which means I can have Melee Mario, aka "Mario without the stupid FLUDD".
except Pitto Lucina and Doc were gonna be costumes but were changed at the end of production meaning they couldn't have had original moves and I don't know why I'm bothering to explain this because this has been documented information for like 6 months but people still find ways to complain about things that aren't even real problems because "_________" didn't make it in.
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I'm also reminded of how some of that documented information states that one of the reasons they were put on the roster was to give them the few "original" moves they did indeed get.
Regardless, I haven't a clue where you're getting the idea that people are still arguing about them replacing other choices when said argument has been dormant for months now. Unless of course you're simply leaning on strawmen like that comparison pic earlier.
edited 8th Apr '15 9:09:36 AM by Demonfly
"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guyDon't do Sakurai's job for him.
If I had to simplify what I've been trying to say here the past few days, I'd say it's about priorities.
The character as a concept, with everything about them, is the single most important thing. Taken as a whole, added to the roster as a whole, does this character add a speck of color, something that feels overall different from what is already there? That's the primary thing that should be considered.
The moveset and the gameplay (which are two different things!) are the secondary things that are informed by the character concept. The moves (plus the way the character walks, idle animation, taunts, etc.) are how the concept is expressed, the gameplay is just the naked numbers behind everything. These two aspects are in a reciprocal relationship, with the style of the moves and the style of how the character plays being informed directly by the concept and informing one another.
The concept comes first - the moveset with all its data fully implemented is the execution of the concept. All of these aspects come together to constitute the character within the game as a whole entity.
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Now of course, a spear would (potentially) mean that the character wielding it would move differently from someone using a sword or daggers or an oversized spoon or whatnot, okay. But... do you see how entirely backwards that is? I've been trying to think of a good simile, but I can't think of one, so: It's like wanting a character in Smash just because of the weapon they wield. There you have it.
The spear only decides (to an extent, mind you!) how the character moves while performing certain moves. That's literally it. That's one of two secondary aspects. That's a part of one of two secondary aspects. The gameplay can be literally anything - fast or slow, start-up and cool-down, heavy or light, and so on and so forth, those are all entirely separate from spear or not. And most of all, what about the concept?! I mean, sure, if you're designing a fighting game, you can say "we need a dude with a spear" and build a cool concept from there, but this is not the same situation! Smash works with concepts first, because all of these characters already exist and can't be altered too much.
And that's where "don't do Sakurai's job for him comes in" - with a good enough concept, it will work. You can have characters that enrich the game just by being who they are first and foremost, and if it works with the concept, they can do all the cool twirly motions and pointy moves and whatnot that you want. But tell me honestly, when this game is all done and over and filled with colorful characters from all sorts of diverse sources with all sorts of crazy movesets... will anyone seriously cry "BUT WHY IS THERE STILL NOT A GUY WITH A SPEAR"?
True. As far as I know, there aren't any Water Wakishazi (Wateshazi?) in the pokéverse.
"Bad, bad, BAD plumber/frog/ninja/dinosaur/swordperson/personal trainer/myself/mii/whatever!"
edited 8th Apr '15 9:50:18 AM by Kuroxeng
Moved handles because mehI don't usually play as Rosaluma, but when I do, I grab and pummel since seeing fighters getting "pummeled" by that tiny, daintly toothpick of a wand is hilarious.
Robin has the worst pummel though. So slow. I often get one pummel and opponents still escape!
Lucario has an awesome one though. I know it's supposed to be an aura attack, but he looks like his gnawing at them.
Lucario goes "omnomnomnomnomnomnom!"
Moved handles because mehI have the bad habit of immediately throwing someone I grab, even with characters with quick pummels.
I gotta fix that. The force choke is just not complete without tiny wand smacks.
edited 8th Apr '15 10:41:00 AM by Elbruno
"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."

Do you really want Ness's Back Throw to kill even earlier?