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FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#72151: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:03:51 AM

Do you really want Ness's Back Throw to kill even earlier?

Enderspy (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: In bed with a green-skinned space babe
#72152: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:04:10 AM

Since I didn't get to post before, here's my two cents on Faw's rant from a few pages ago:

You have to consider what makes sense when making a character's moveset. Pit's bow-swords make sense because that's a weapon you could logically expect from his world. Giving Chrom a sword version of Arcfire doesn't make any sense whatsoever. That's one of the reasons why people want a spear character; it moves and attacks differently than a sword or an arm cannon. You can't just give any character any move, else you end up with this abomination.

Hungryguy I am a Rad Reptile. from inside a cheese wheel Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
I am a Rad Reptile.
#72153: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:10:24 AM

[up][up] That would be a problem. Modified question: What if, you could charge Down Throws?

Call me butter, because I am on a roll! 3ds friend code: 5258-0885-3903 Wii U: Bowser Charizard
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#72154: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:11:24 AM

It'd be one more way my throws could be delayed for the microsecond needed for enemies to break free. No thanks.

I have a message from another time...
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#72155: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:13:06 AM

[up][up][up] This is gonna sound kinda like a 180 from my previous post on moveset mechanics, but part of why it took me a while to respond was because I think I get Faw's point, which can be explained as such:

Don't do Sakurai's job for him.

Everyone gets so caught up with creating move lists that people try to use them to justify newcomer choices. Don't worry about the move lists. Part of Sakurai's job is to handle the move lists. Just give him a good conceptual idea and trust him to spin it to something golden.

(I say "kinda" because I think character concepts can influence potential playstyles, and I feel that my original post can still pertain to the veterans.)

edited 8th Apr '15 8:13:24 AM by Watchtower

Keybreak (Long Runner)
#72156: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:13:42 AM

I never punch my enemies when I'm holding them. They always break out after just one or two and then they jump at me.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
Rivux same old me from [a jump to the sky turns to a rider kick] Since: Aug, 2010
same old me
#72157: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:23:47 AM

You generally aren't supposed to get too many pummels in, especially at the lower percentages.

Characters with slow pummels like Sheik and Mario can only get in one or two, whereas Lucario and Kirby can get in more than that.

mario is red, i am green, i try my best, but everyone's mean
Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#72158: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:32:21 AM

[up][up][up]I'm reminded of how one of the main reasons people were interested in Dark Pit coming in was because he would clearly have this unique and innovative moveset that properly reflects his debuting game. tongue

[up]I've actually seen a handful of FG opponents who keep expecting a throw and don't bother trying to break out, usually netting them about 10-20% more damage than they normally would have gotten just from the grab.

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
Hungryguy I am a Rad Reptile. from inside a cheese wheel Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
I am a Rad Reptile.
#72159: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:40:39 AM

I sometimes manage to get in about five pummels in as Bowser, oddly enough. Then I can end up getting about 20 with Kirby.

Call me butter, because I am on a roll! 3ds friend code: 5258-0885-3903 Wii U: Bowser Charizard
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#72160: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:47:36 AM

Lucina, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario are easily the weakest choices among the newcomers, because they're clearly there to pad the roster with fanservice. Dark Pit is probably the most agitating because Sakurai could've made up for shilling the Evil Twin by tapping more into the buttload of weapons from Kid Icarus Uprising. I'm reminded of Cole and Evil Cole from Playstation All Stars Battle Royale, where they're literally the same guy but at least have different playstyles.

Dr. Mario is almost justified in that he still has the Tornado for his Down B, which means I can have Melee Mario, aka "Mario without the stupid FLUDD".

Paperbritt Since: Apr, 2013
#72161: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:55:55 AM

except Pitto Lucina and Doc were gonna be costumes but were changed at the end of production meaning they couldn't have had original moves and I don't know why I'm bothering to explain this because this has been documented information for like 6 months but people still find ways to complain about things that aren't even real problems because "_________" didn't make it in.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#72162: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:57:51 AM

All of this time wasted talking about clones could be time spent creating fake identities to vote for Bayonetta tongue

FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#72163: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:59:23 AM

I love Samus's animation for when she hits someone while grabbing them.

Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#72164: Apr 8th 2015 at 9:09:27 AM

[up][up][up]I'm also reminded of how some of that documented information states that one of the reasons they were put on the roster was to give them the few "original" moves they did indeed get.

Regardless, I haven't a clue where you're getting the idea that people are still arguing about them replacing other choices when said argument has been dormant for months now. Unless of course you're simply leaning on strawmen like that comparison pic earlier.

edited 8th Apr '15 9:09:36 AM by Demonfly

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#72165: Apr 8th 2015 at 9:16:48 AM

Reading everything through, I realize we were talking about two very different things. You've been talking exclusively on picking out worthy newcomers, whereas I was talking about spicing up the veterans that didn't exactly get the love that some of the newer faces have gotten. And I don't see why our two viewpoints can't coexist, because when it comes to newcomers I agree with you 100%.
Ah, I figured there was some miscommunication going on. To be sure, I absolutely think that any character should be developed to make the most out of their conceptual potential, so I definitely agree that Ganondorf should be distanced from his Falcon-like present self. The reason I think Toon Link should be very similar to Mature Link is not out of some sort of adherence to the status quo, but because I believe that their concepts should not differ substantially because that would invariably make one of them less of a representative protagonist of their series. They don't need to be the exact same, but neither of them should be relegated to the status of "the one with the leftovers".

This is gonna sound kinda like a 180 from my previous post on moveset mechanics, but part of why it took me a while to respond was because I think I get Faw's point, which can be explained as such:

Don't do Sakurai's job for him.

Welllllllllllllll thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's not entirely off, I guess. ^^;

If I had to simplify what I've been trying to say here the past few days, I'd say it's about priorities.

The character as a concept, with everything about them, is the single most important thing. Taken as a whole, added to the roster as a whole, does this character add a speck of color, something that feels overall different from what is already there? That's the primary thing that should be considered.

The moveset and the gameplay (which are two different things!) are the secondary things that are informed by the character concept. The moves (plus the way the character walks, idle animation, taunts, etc.) are how the concept is expressed, the gameplay is just the naked numbers behind everything. These two aspects are in a reciprocal relationship, with the style of the moves and the style of how the character plays being informed directly by the concept and informing one another.

The concept comes first - the moveset with all its data fully implemented is the execution of the concept. All of these aspects come together to constitute the character within the game as a whole entity.

...

You have to consider what makes sense when making a character's moveset. Pit's bow-swords make sense because that's a weapon you could logically expect from his world. Giving Chrom a sword version of Arcfire doesn't make any sense whatsoever. That's one of the reasons why people want a spear character; it moves and attacks differently than a sword or an arm cannon. You can't just give any character any move, else you end up with this abomination.
See, all of those examples I gave were just... examples, you know? Please don't make me sound stupid by suggesting that I wanted Chrom to have a "sword version of Arcfire". The point I wanted to make is that, whether it's fire or a twirling sword of Pit's, a multi-hit trapping move is just a multi-hit trapping move when it comes to actual gameplay. And a spear would just translate to long hitboxes. Game&Watch could effectively be a spear user if you took his hitboxes.

Now of course, a spear would (potentially) mean that the character wielding it would move differently from someone using a sword or daggers or an oversized spoon or whatnot, okay. But... do you see how entirely backwards that is? I've been trying to think of a good simile, but I can't think of one, so: It's like wanting a character in Smash just because of the weapon they wield. There you have it.

The spear only decides (to an extent, mind you!) how the character moves while performing certain moves. That's literally it. That's one of two secondary aspects. That's a part of one of two secondary aspects. The gameplay can be literally anything - fast or slow, start-up and cool-down, heavy or light, and so on and so forth, those are all entirely separate from spear or not. And most of all, what about the concept?! I mean, sure, if you're designing a fighting game, you can say "we need a dude with a spear" and build a cool concept from there, but this is not the same situation! Smash works with concepts first, because all of these characters already exist and can't be altered too much.

And that's where "don't do Sakurai's job for him comes in" - with a good enough concept, it will work. You can have characters that enrich the game just by being who they are first and foremost, and if it works with the concept, they can do all the cool twirly motions and pointy moves and whatnot that you want. But tell me honestly, when this game is all done and over and filled with colorful characters from all sorts of diverse sources with all sorts of crazy movesets... will anyone seriously cry "BUT WHY IS THERE STILL NOT A GUY WITH A SPEAR"?

FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#72166: Apr 8th 2015 at 9:41:37 AM

To be honest if you asked me how Greninja in Smash would be I would have no clue of what moveset they would give him other than the obvious Water Shuriken.

Then his announcement happened and suddenly water swords.

Kuroxeng Moved accounts because meh from error 040 Since: Mar, 2015
Moved accounts because meh
#72167: Apr 8th 2015 at 9:47:46 AM

True. As far as I know, there aren't any Water Wakishazi (Wateshazi?) in the pokéverse.

I love Samus's animation for when she hits someone while grabbing them.
Her, Rosalina and DK pummels just make me think of somebody (violently) scolding a misbehaving person.

"Bad, bad, BAD plumber/frog/ninja/dinosaur/swordperson/personal trainer/myself/mii/whatever!"

edited 8th Apr '15 9:50:18 AM by Kuroxeng

Moved handles because meh
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#72168: Apr 8th 2015 at 9:51:07 AM

Samus's is just the best because she outright spanks the opponent because she just hits so fast.

Kuroxeng Moved accounts because meh from error 040 Since: Mar, 2015
Moved accounts because meh
#72169: Apr 8th 2015 at 9:54:28 AM

I don't usually play as Rosaluma, but when I do, I grab and pummel since seeing fighters getting "pummeled" by that tiny, daintly toothpick of a wand is hilarious. [lol]

Robin has the worst pummel though. So slow. I often get one pummel and opponents still escape!

Lucario has an awesome one though. I know it's supposed to be an aura attack, but he looks like his gnawing at them.

Lucario goes "omnomnomnomnomnomnom!"

Moved handles because meh
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#72170: Apr 8th 2015 at 10:01:45 AM

Wario's is fun.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Kuroxeng Moved accounts because meh from error 040 Since: Mar, 2015
Moved accounts because meh
#72171: Apr 8th 2015 at 10:33:17 AM

I prefer eating people.

[down]that's what I meant. "I prefer eating people, when I'm WAA!"

edited 8th Apr '15 10:38:36 AM by Kuroxeng

Moved handles because meh
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#72172: Apr 8th 2015 at 10:36:33 AM

Wario can eat people too...

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#72173: Apr 8th 2015 at 10:37:16 AM

IIRC Greninja's pummel is worse than Robin's. It goes at the same speed but Robin's does 3% per hit and Greninja's does 2%

Kuroxeng Moved accounts because meh from error 040 Since: Mar, 2015
Moved accounts because meh
#72174: Apr 8th 2015 at 10:39:31 AM

IIRC Greninja's pummel is worse than Robin's. It goes at the same speed but Robin's does 3% per hit and Greninja's does 2%

Looks like they better nerf Greninja again. tongue

Moved handles because meh
Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#72175: Apr 8th 2015 at 10:39:39 AM

I have the bad habit of immediately throwing someone I grab, even with characters with quick pummels.

I gotta fix that. The force choke is just not complete without tiny wand smacks.

edited 8th Apr '15 10:41:00 AM by Elbruno

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."

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