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Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#71976: Apr 6th 2015 at 11:55:09 AM

I think Original!Link was somewhere in the indeterminate tweens.

"We're home, Chewie."
Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#71977: Apr 6th 2015 at 11:55:22 AM

If I recall, Ocarina of Time was still in development when Smash was made, and I want to say that Adult Link was pretty much the poster boy for the game, which is why Sakurai defaulted to that. (this is also why Adult Link uses some weapons, like the Boomerang, that were Young Link exclusive; Sakurai just didn't know yet that Adult Link lost access to them)

EDIT: Also, Link's stage in Smash 64, while an iconic location, is a location that doesn't exist for Adult Link.

edited 6th Apr '15 11:58:29 AM by Otherarrow

Don't PM me. We don't like being PMed.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#71978: Apr 6th 2015 at 12:15:31 PM

I had thought it was based more off of the Castle in Link to the Past, anyway.

Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#71979: Apr 6th 2015 at 12:16:01 PM

Nope. That particular design for the castle is straight out of Ocarina.

Don't PM me. We don't like being PMed.
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#71980: Apr 6th 2015 at 12:21:44 PM

@Fawriel: I want to make this clear: I'm, for the most part, on your side on this. I agree that fans can get a bit too narrow-minded when it comes to tiny details like weapons and "iconicness", and don't really focus on what characters can bring beyond said details. However, at the same time fighter mechanics can play just as much of a role in a character's overall style as conceptual appeal, which is only further supported by the overall focus on them in this installment. To me, it feels needlessly restrictive when, say, dark evil wizard Ganondorf can't do dark evil wizard things because he's been grandfathered in as a Falcon Shotoclone.

Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#71981: Apr 6th 2015 at 12:27:41 PM

I'm mostly fine with Ganondorf's moveset, based off what I do know of him.

Only thing I'd really change is make his Down Special shooting a Projectile that can be reflected by any attack, increasing in speed and damage based on the knockback and damage of the attack that hits it.

Then Ganondorf can play Tennis once again.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#71982: Apr 6th 2015 at 12:30:59 PM

I'd replace his three Smash Attacks with sword strikes, and his Warlock Punch with Dead Man's Volley.

That'd go a long way toward making him less of a Falcon clone and more like Ganondorf. He can even keep Wizard's Foot if he wants, it's pretty useful for a guy like Ganondorf and having one or two moves in common isn't a big deal.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#71983: Apr 6th 2015 at 12:34:01 PM

I don't think Dead Man's Volley would work very for Ganondorf because his attacks are naturally slow, which would make reflecting the energy balls much harder than it would for a character like Sheik or Greninja.

It would pretty much be like Dedede's Gordo toss, only worse and even less helpful because everything can reflect it making it a non-issue.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#71984: Apr 6th 2015 at 12:38:22 PM

I was thinking that, as long as an energy ball is on screen, Ganon's neutral B is replaced with a very swift backhand for the purpose of reflecting it.

That gets around the issue of Ganondorf's attacks being slow and ensures he has the home-field advantage when playing tennis.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#71985: Apr 6th 2015 at 12:46:27 PM

There's also the problem is that there's nothing really forcing the opponent to engage in this game of tennis, most characters can just dodge the ball and rush Ganon down.

... Though I guess it would be more useful than Warlock Punch still so -shrug-.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#71986: Apr 6th 2015 at 12:49:06 PM

You could say that about just about any projectile, though.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#71987: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:02:27 PM

Well, you could make it so that you can have only one of the spheres out at a time (of course) and design it so that as soon as it touches him, he automatically performs an extremely quick special jab that hits it back, just as long as he's not in the process of performing a move at the time. And it would still serve to limit the opponent's options.

Anything can be made to work with enough effort.

@Fawriel: I want to make this clear: I'm, for the most part, on your side on this. I agree that fans can get a bit too narrow-minded when it comes to tiny details like weapons and "iconicness", and don't really focus on what characters can bring beyond said details. However, at the same time fighter mechanics can play just as much of a role in a character's overall style as conceptual appeal, which is only further supported by the overall focus on them in this installment. To me, it feels needlessly restrictive when, say, dark evil wizard Ganondorf can't do dark evil wizard things because he's been grandfathered in as a Falcon Shotoclone.
I'm sorry, I'm not entirely sure what to make of this reply. Was it in response to my response to your post about the Links, or about what I've been saying in general? I'm going to assume it was the latter?

The thing I've been trying to say is that... again, movesets, mechanics, all that stuff is largely arbitrary. Let me go into more detail, since I've been meaning to do so anyway.

As I said, there doesn't really exist a clear idea of what the thing that people like to call "moveset potential" actually is. Back before Chrom was deconfirmed, a lot of people argued that he would be a bad addition because he would be another swordfighter, while other people argued that he could easily be distinguished with something or other. There are plenty of sword styles after all, and you could make Chrom summon his teammates or whatnot. But if you ask me, the reason Robin was made playable instead is not that Chrom is another swordfighter (which also goes for Shulk), but that Chrom is another Fire Emblem lord with blue hair and a heroic attitude. Imagine you were stuffing the game full of characters like that. You could differentiate them, since there are plenty of sword styles after all, but would that make the difference? Would it excite everyone if one of them had a spear?

Look at the Wii Fit Trainer. The character in itself is nothing but a figure demonstrating yoga poses. In Smash 4, she has a pretty distinct playstyle. Is that because of her moveset potential? Is the fact that she can angle her projectile an inherent part of the character? Is that what makes her interesting? Is it the power-up special? ... Look at Pit. In Brawl, the only game he was playable in was still the NES one where he played pretty much the same way as Samus, but with, like, even fewer abilities? Yet Sakurai came up with a splitting bow that turns into twirly daggers, arrows that can be aimed and steered, and so on. But was his moveset potential really that different from Samus'?

The thing is, Sakurai made all of that up because he wanted to, because he liked Pit. Ultimately you could've come up with some justification to make Chrom or any other swordfighter play the same way as, say, Robin does now. A sword can be thrown, a sword can be a multi-hit trapping move, you could give him a lance and make that a projectile... okay, I don't think Chrom will be life-leeching anytime soon. But the bottom line is that you can absolutely come up with wonderful, unique movesets and mechanics for kickboxing Goombas or spear-wielding Waddle Dees, but the question is if the character is worth the trouble, or if you shouldn't be giving that effort instead to a shovel-wielding ridiculous tin can that runs around with endlessly amusing vigor on stubby legs and shouts things like "steel thy shovel!"

A shovel blade is essentially just a sword that can dig things up. But the person wielding it is hilarious, and that makes all the difference.

edited 6th Apr '15 1:04:56 PM by Fawriel

Sterok Since: Apr, 2012
#71988: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:06:04 PM

I really wish Ganondorf would get a new U-tilt. It's even slower than Warlock Punch and prone to be used accidentally when you want to up-smash.

FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#71989: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:07:39 PM

It's pretty good as an edgeguarding tool though. The hitbox of the explosion is pretty ridiculous.

Eskay64 Since: Nov, 2010
#71990: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:13:14 PM

Ganondorf's Warlock Punch and U-Tilt are more or less used for Cherry Tapping. They're utterly ridiculous, yes, but it's so satisfying to succeed with them, and so humiliating to be on the receiving end that it's entirely worth it. Plus, like Moon said, U-tilt is great for edgeguarding.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#71991: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:14:34 PM

[up][up][up][up]Chrom actually can leech life. That's half of what Aether does.

[up][up][up]It's important for taking pictures of Ganondorf about to get Falcon/KO Punched right in the groin, and it's important for going sailing on Rolling Crates.

edited 6th Apr '15 1:15:05 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#71992: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:15:56 PM

Also yeah, the current Ganondorf design still isn't nearly making the most out of his potential.

Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#71993: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:20:18 PM

[up]x13: Trope nitpick time: Shotoclone is a Ryu-clone, not just any kind of clone. That would be Moveset Clone.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#71994: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:22:45 PM

I'd keep most of Ganondorf's A-attacks, replace his Smashes with a sword, keep his side-B, and change his Warlock Punch to a short-ranged blast of darkness, his Up-B into a more powerful version of Fire Fox, and keep the Warlock Kick and Ganon.

The legend has returned.
Kuroxeng Moved accounts because meh from error 040 Since: Mar, 2015
Moved accounts because meh
#71995: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:37:27 PM

I liked the idea of Ganondorf having a preojectile tennis thing for a neutral B, with replacing the projectile with a quick backhand when said projectile is out.

Moved handles because meh
Konkfan7 Konknitive Dissonance from Roselle Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Konknitive Dissonance
#71996: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:38:26 PM

1

Looks like Shovel Knight and Shantae have more of a chance than I first thought.

Kuroxeng Moved accounts because meh from error 040 Since: Mar, 2015
Moved accounts because meh
#71997: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:43:02 PM

Wellp, looks like the Hype Train is going off the rails again.

Somebody call Sabin over to lift it back on them rails.

Moved handles because meh
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#71998: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:44:11 PM

I dunno. That seems carefully crafted to sound good while meaning little. Sure, you can submit any character you like, and those votes will be 'taken into consideration', but neither of those things promise that such characters have a shot. Just means that you're capable of submitting whoever and that they'll look at the votes.

edited 6th Apr '15 1:44:52 PM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#71999: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:44:43 PM

If Sabin makes it in, make his final smash have him suplex a train.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Konkfan7 Konknitive Dissonance from Roselle Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Konknitive Dissonance
#72000: Apr 6th 2015 at 1:48:01 PM

I mean, I don't think this open season to go crazy with say, Cloud or Minato, but I'd say characters that are "a bit of stretch" like Bayonetta, Shantae, or Shovel Knight have a better chance with this knowledge in mind.


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