Lucas was made as a slighty reworked Ness, and could work fine as a costume. I'd like him better as his own DLC character, but I wouldn't complain if he was a costume. He has the exact same proportions as Ness after all, and their franchise isn't growing anymore.
Wolf would be less workable as a costume, his playstyle felt more different than Fox' (and I would say that Falco was kept due to Grandfather Clause, and Falco made it to Melee because clone!Wolf in Melee would be just a gray Fox).
And those two are my most wanted DLC characters after Mewtwo. The Ice Climbers, well, they are awkward; built around a gimmick (that Rosalina and Luma pulled out in a more streamlined way), and coming from a quite nontrascendant game, and with a generic moveset. Still, even if generic, having Popo with alt Nana costumes would be better than nothing.
Ivysaur and Squirtle... Most people I've played with tend to agree on standalone Charizard being better; Greninja took Squirtle's concept and vastly improved it, and Ivysaur was kinda awkward. And 6 Pokemon is a perfect number, I'd say. Mewtwo and Greninja are quite good for that.
Also, Villager is eerily similar to Snake. Even if I never saw Snake as a fitting character (because come on, MGS is the PSX' signature game, and Metal Gear is associated with Sony without exception; meanwhile, Sonic and Megaman have a complex history with Nintendo, and Pac-Man has that with videogaming as a whole).
And I, for one, would have took Mario the Project M route, rather than bringing Dr.Mario back. Because Dr.Mario is Mario in a labcoat instead of overalls, that is a costume change by definition. Mario Tornado (with FLUDD as a Final Smash working the exact same way as the Mario Finale), taking elements of both Mario and Doc to have a more solid character, and, if anything, giving Luigi the more unconventional aspects of Doc (the reverse Sex Kick, the electric damage in the forward smash...).
Lucina and Dark Pit were conceived as alternate costumes, and they would have worked just fine as such, specially Dark Pit. Still, if Lucina was an alternate Marth costume, I could see Chrom making it as an alt Ike costume as well.
And I am not complaining about wasted slots, I just really liked the concept behind Alph and the Koopalings, and for some characters it feels like the perfect way to participate in Smash.
Lucas' A moves are way too different to be a costume. Same with Wolf. Dr. Mario never worked well as a costume. He always played differently from day one. I can't see Dark Pit using holy items like The Three Sacred Treasures either. His Dark Pit Staff is far more logical to use now. Lucina I agree with, though.
Squirtle and Ivysaur I only cared about for their Types. And I got Greninja for Water. Just need a Grass, although no more Pokemon works for me too.
Shadow?Well, having the different A moves was not an issue to cut Lucas from the roster, and characters change the A-moves between games as well. Lucas would be playable at the expense of his uniqueness if he was a costume, but that'd be better than no Lucas (but worse than having his own A-moves).
And, again, Wolf's moves were more unique than Lucas'.
Dark Pit not using the Sacred Treasures would probably be one of the main reasons that made him become a standalone character, but still, Final Smash aside, it is the exact same.
And, Dr.Mario played like Mario, but slighty better in Melee, where he wasn't slower or anything. He always played very similar to Mario anyway, the closest out of all clones. And he is MARIO IN A COSTUME. I'd take the original plan of having 2001 Wario be the heavier Mario over Mario in a doctor outfit being a separate character, at least Toon Link is a different individual (and, in any case, that Wario would be better than the made up moveset we got for Wario, as his debut was copycatting Mario). But hey, that's just my opinion about a detail that has irked me for some 13 years and that, all in all, is not very meaningful.
Falco was Luigified, but, in any case, started out as a Fox clone, and still shares plenty of stuff with him, and the resemblance is closer than Wolf's. Still a good case of Luigification, approaching Luigi's level, and the resemblance is justified, as he and Fox share equipment, but use the same tools in different ways, just like Mario and Luigi.
Wolf is a character that was made with the goal of resembling Fox, but being different. Fully different A-game, and specials that are inspired by. A whole different beast.
I'd like to have the 3 Star Fox characters, in any case.
I'd also see fitting to see Sheik get an Impa skin, and afterwards see Sheik turn into the skin. Mostly because, well, Impa has been relevant for the series since the beggining, while Sheik is Zelda's alter ego in a single game, yet is still very iconic to Smash and shouldn't just dissapear.
Clone and Semi-clone differences, yay:
Luigi
Identical Moves: 19/23
Variant Moves: 3/23 (Neutral Special, Up Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 1/23 (Dash Attack)
Other Differences: Physics (jumps higher, is floatier, etc.). Attacks are faster and weaker than Mario's.
Other Notes: Has sped-up clips of Mario's voice, and his model resembles Mario's.
Melee (Semi-clone of Mario)
Identical Moves: 14/27
Variant Moves: 6/27 (D-Smash, Nair, Dair, Neutral Special, Up Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 7/27 (Jab combo, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, Dash Attack, F-Smash, Fair, Side Special)
Other Differences: Physics (jumps higher, is floatier, etc.), Luigi can't wall-jump.
Other Notes: Has sped-up clips of Mario's voice, and his model resembles Mario's, like in 64.
Differences from Dr. Mario: Most of Luigi's differences from Mario also apply to Dr. Mario, but like Luigi, Dr. Mario can't wall jump.
Brawl (Semi-clone of Mario)
Identical Moves: 15/29
Variant Moves: 3/29 (Nair, Neutral Special, Up Special)
Different Moves: 11/29 (Jab combo, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, Dash Attack, F-Smash, D-Smash, Fair, Dair, Side Special, Down Special, Final Smash)
Other Differences: Physics (jumps higher, is floatier, etc.), Luigi can't wall-jump, but can crawl unlike Mario.
Other Notes: Luigi's model has been updated to be current. His model is now less similiar to Mario's, and he also uses his voice this time around, instead of sped-up Mario clips. He also gets more unique animations to him to set him even more apart from Mario. As in-game entrances returned, Luigi's is slightly different from Mario's.
For 3DS/Wii U (Disputed Semi-clone of Mario [seemingly borders the line between semi-clone and unique character now], Pseudo-parent to Dr. Mario)
With Mario
Identical Moves: 14/29
Variant Moves: 3/29 (Nair, Neutral Special, Up Special)
Different Moves: 12/29 (Jab combo, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, Dash Attack, F-Smash, D-Smash, Fair, Dair, D-Throw, Side Special, Down Special, Final Smash)
Shared Custom Moves: None, but one of his neutral special customs is similiar to Mario's default neutral special.
Other Differences: Physics (jumps higher, is floatier, etc.), Luigi can't wall-jump, but can crawl unlike Mario.
Other Notes: Luigi's jump animation is now the flutter jump he's had from Lost Levels. His animations are also tweaked a bit further, making him more dissimiliar to Mario.
With Dr. Mario
Identical Moves: 14/29
Variant Moves: 5/29 (Nair, Dair, Neutral Special, Up Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 10/29 (Jab combo, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, Dash Attack, F-Smash, D-Smash, Fair, D-Throw, Side Special, Final Smash)
Shared Custom Moves: Dr. Mario's down special customs are identical to Luigi's... except that they use Dr. Mario's properties.
Other Differences: Physics (jumps higher, is floatier, etc.), Luigi can't wall-jump, but can crawl unlike Dr. Mario.
Other Notes: Mario's changes in Brawl, coupled with Dr. Mario being ported over with the old specials, makes the two of them closer than Luigi is to Mario, having two more moves that are variants of each other, and Dr. Mario's Down Special customs being obviously based off of Luigi's. However, because Dr. Mario gained the ability to wall-jump and Luigi got the ability to crawl in Brawl, one similiarity between them does not exist anymore. Luigi's and Dr. Mario's overall changes make this pair more dissimiliar than similiar when everything's said and done.
Jigglypuff
Identical Moves: 12/23
Variant Moves: 3/23 (Fair, D-Smash, B-Throw)
Different Moves: 8/23 (Jab combo, U-Smash, Bair, Uair, F-Throw, Neutral Special, Up Special, Down Special)
Other Notes: Physics are very similiar. Ledge-grabbing and item animations are also similiar.
Sequel Notes: Melee and onwards changed Jigglypuff and Kirby enough that Jigglypuff is not considered a semi-clone in any of the subsequent games, though the two still share some moves.
Dr. Mario
Identical Moves: 21/27
Variant Moves: 6/27 (F-Smash, Nair, Fair [listed here because while the animation is the same, the move's properties are vastly different from Mario's], Neutral Special, Side Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 0/27
Other Differences: Dr. Mario's air speed is higher, Dr. Mario can't wall-jump.
Other Notes: His physics are all identical to Mario, besides air speed which is actually faster than Mario's, which is funny considering he's touted as a slower, stronger clone of him (they did get the strength part down so Dr. Mario's attacks are generally a little bit stronger than Mario, but they did not get the slow part).
Differences from Luigi: Most of Luigi's differences from Mario also apply to Dr. Mario, but like Luigi, Dr. Mario can't wall jump.
Brawl Note: Dr. Mario would not return as a playable character in Brawl. He would latter return for the newest iteration of Smash in his capacity as a clone, but due to changes made to Mario in the meantime, Dr. Mario would borrow some moves from Luigi as well.
For 3DS/Wii U (Somewhat disputed Clone of Mario [Borders the line between clone and semi-clone], Pseudo-child to Luigi)
With Mario
Identical Moves: 20/29
Variant Moves: 7/29 (F-Smash, Nair, Fair, Neutral Special, Side Special, Up Special, Final Smash)
Different Moves: 2/29 (Dair, Down Special)
Shared Custom Moves: His neutral, side, and up special customs are all based on Mario's equivalent customs. They have different names and use Dr. Mario's properties though, so most of them are variants of Mario's.
Other Differences: Physics (jumps lower, runs slower, has higher fall speed, etc.), attacks are generally more powerful than Mario's.
Other Notes: Dr. Mario now is the stronger, but slower Mario clone that he was touted as being in Melee. His idle animation is also slower, and parts of it is unique. His in-game entrance is also different from Mario's. On the other hand, Dr. Mario can now wall-jump like Mario, removing a difference. His Dr. Tornado was also altered to be more like how the old Mario Tornado is, but this is not a problem since Mario changed his input for his Mario Tornado in Brawl and got a new down special.
With Luigi
Identical Moves: 14/29
Variant Moves: 5/29 (Nair, Dair, Neutral Special, Up Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 10/29 (Jab combo, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, Dash Attack, F-Smash, D-Smash, Fair, D-Throw, Side Special, Final Smash)
Shared Custom Moves: Dr. Mario's down special customs are identical to Luigi's... except that they use Dr. Mario's properties.
Other Differences: Physics (jumps higher, is floatier, etc.), Luigi can't wall-jump, but can crawl unlike Dr. Mario.
Other Notes: Mario's changes in Brawl, coupled with Dr. Mario being ported over with the old specials, makes the two of them closer than Luigi is to Mario, having two more moves that are variants of each other, and Dr. Mario's Down Special customs being obviously based off of Luigi's. However, because Dr. Mario gained the ability to wall-jump and Luigi got the ability to crawl in Brawl, one similiarity between them does not exist anymore. Luigi's and Dr. Mario's overall changes make this pair more dissimiliar than similiar when everything's said and done.
Young Link -> Toon Link
Identical Moves: 23/27
Variant Moves: 4/27 (F-Smash, Neutral Special, Up Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 0/27
Other Differences: Physics (Young Link is faster and has lower weight), Young Link's attacks are weaker, Young Link can wall-jump and Link can't.
Other Notes: Like Dr. Mario, Toon Link has no different moves, only variants.
After Melee: Young Link would never appear again, but a new character named Toon Link debuted in Brawl. While Toon Link is a different character, he basically is an evolution of Young Link.
Brawl (Toon Link, Disputed Semi-clone [some people believe he's a clone] of Link)
Identical Moves: 16/29
Variant Moves: 7/29 (F-Smash, D-Smash, Dair, Neutral Special, Side Special, Up Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 6/29 (Up Smash, Nair, Fair, Bair, F-Throw, B-Throw)
Other Differences: Physics (faster and lighter), attacks are weaker, Toon Link can wall-jump while Link can't, Toon Link's size and proportions are vastly different from Link's.
For 3DS/Wii U (Toon Link, Semi-clone of Link)
Identical Moves: 14/29
Variant Moves: 8/29 (F-Smash, D-Smash, Uair, Dair, Neutral Special, Side Special, Up Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 7/29 (Dash Attack, Up Smash, Nair, Fair, Bair, F-Throw, B-Throw)
Shared Custom Moves: One of Toon Link's custom neutral specials is similiar to one of Link's. There are otherwise no custom moves shared between them.
Other Differences: Physics (lighter and faster), Toon Link is weaker, Only Toon Link can wall-jump yadda yadda.
Other Notes: Changes to Link made Toon Link possess a different attack and a variant attack upon becoming a proper veteran.
Ganondorf
Identical Moves: 21/27
Variant Moves: 3/27 (U-Smash, D-Smash, Nair)
Different Moves: 3/27 (Jab combo, U-Tilt, Fair)
Other Differences: Physics (Ganondorf is much slower in just about every aspect, higher weight), Ganondorf's attacks are much more powerful, Ganondorf can't wall-jump.
Other Notes: Ganondorf's U-Tilt, despite having the same animation as Cpt. Falcon's U-Tilt, is so radically different in function that it is essentially a different move altogether. The properties of his variant attacks got carried over to subsequent games. Ganondorf also channels darkness instead of fire in most of his moves, and some of his other moves channel electricity as well (on different moves than Cpt. Falcon's).
Brawl (Semi-clone of Cpt. Falcon)
Identical Moves: 15/29
Variant Moves: 5/29 (D-Smash, Nair, Neutral Special, Up Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 9/29 (Jab combo, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, U-Smash, Fair, U-Throw, Side Special, Final Smash)
Other Differences: Physics (much slower in just about every aspect, higher weight), attacks are much more powerful, Ganondorf can't wall-jump.
Other Notes: Ganondorf now has different animations for things such as dashing. Other differences from Melee not noted above were carried over to Brawl.
For 3DS/Wii U (Semi-clone of Cpt. Falcon)
Identical Moves: 15/29
Variant Moves: 5/29 (D-Smash, Nair, Neutral Special, Up Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 9/29 (Jab combo, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, U-Smash, Fair, D-Throw, Side Special, Final Smash)
Shared Custom Moves: None.
Other Differences: Physics (Ganondorf is slower and heavier yadda yadda), Ganondorf is more powerful, Ganondorf can't wall-jump.
Other Notes: Ganondorf received no differences in terms of new moves. His custom moves however are quite different from the good captain's, and due to reasons he was made ridiculously strong in this incarnation of Smash.
Falco
Identical Moves: 22/27
Variant Moves: 5/27 (Dair, Neutral Special, Side Special, Up Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 0/27
Other Differences: Physics (Falco runs slower and jumps higher).
Other Notes: Despite having 22 identical moves, the knockback of these moves have been altered, changing what moves Falco uses to KO. Also, Falco's physics are still kinda similiar to Fox, despite being different.
Brawl (Semi-clone of Fox)
Identical Moves: 13/29
Variant Moves: 7/29 (Dair, U-Throw, D-Throw, Neutral Special, Side Special, Up Special, Final Smash)
Different Moves: 9/29 (Jab combo, U-Tilt, F-Smash, Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair, U-Throw, Down Special)
Other Differences: Physics (jumps higher, runs slower)
Other Notes: Falco now has a different dashing animation.
For 3DS/Wii U (Semi-clone of Fox)
Identical Moves: 12/29
Variant Moves: 8/29 (U-Smash, Dair, U-Throw, D-Throw, Neutral Special, Side Special, Up Special, Final Smash)
Different Moves: 9/29 (Jab combo, U-Tilt, F-Smash, Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair, U-Throw, Down Special)
Shared Custom Moves: Fox and Falco have a custom neutral special that makes the blaster more similiar to the other one's, technically meaning they have two custom moves in common. However, the rest are different.
Other Differences: Physics (Falco runs slower and jumps higher).
Other Notes: Falco received a new Bair and Uair in addition to an altered U-Smash. However, his Bair and Uair were already different moves.
Pichu
Identical Moves: 20/27
Variant Moves: 6/27 (F-Smash, D-Smash, Nair, Side Special, Up Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 1/27 (U-Smash)
Other Differences: Physics (Pichu is very light), Pichu's attacks are weaker, Pichu can wall-jump while Pikachu can't, Pichu's electric attacks hurts itself.
Other Notes: Pichu would only appear in Melee. It's wall-jump ability were given to Pikachu in the next game.
Roy
Identical Moves: 23/27
Variant Moves: 3/27 (U-Smash, Neutral Special, Up Special)
Different Moves: 1/27 (Jab)
Other Differences: Physics (Roy falls faster, Marth has lower traction, etc.), Roy's attacks deal more damage and knockback at the center of the blade.
Other Notes: Roy would only appear in Melee. He would be succeeded by other Fire Emblem characters with different movesets.
Wolf
Identical Moves: 0/29
Variant Moves: 9/29 (Neutral Special, Side Special, Up Special, Down Special, Ledge Attacks, Floor Attacks, Final Smash)
Different Moves: 16+/29 (Jab combo, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, Dash Attack, F-Smash, U-Smash, D-Smash, Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair, F-Throw, B-Throw, U-Throw, D-Throw)
Other Differences: Physics (Probably the one with the most different physics of the space animals)
Other Notes: Wolf's animations are very different from the other space animals.
Lucas
Identical Moves: 7/29
Variant Moves: 8/29 (D-Tilt, Nair, Dair, Neutral Special, Side Special, Up Special, Down Special, Final Smash)
Different Moves: 12/29 (Jab combo, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, Dash Attack, U-Smash, D-Smash, Fair, Bair, F-Throw, B-Throw, U-Throw, D-Throw)
Other Differences: Lucas has a tether grab, with all the benefits.
Other Notes: Lucas's physics are very identical to Ness. In addition, both he and Ness suffer a horrible delay when they're released from grabs.
Lucina
Identical Moves: 27/29
Variant Moves (if you could call them that): 2/29 (Neutral Special, Down Special)
Different Moves: 0/29
Shared Custom Moves: All of Marth's customs. And only the Side Special customs use Marth and Lucina's points to differentiate between them. The rest are basically the exact same move for both of them, down to the name even.
Other Differences: Lucina deals consistent damage, compared to Marth who has a ridiculously powerful sweetspot at the tip of his blade. Comparing them reveals that Lucina's consistent damage pales in comparison to Marth's tippers and Marth's non-tippers aren't weak enough to compensate for this when he gets hitstun benefits on top of that too.
Other Notes: The animation of Lucina's neutral and down specials are different from Marth's, which is the only reason I decided to list them as variants. They are functionally the exact same move. Other than that, she's basically a middle-ground between non-tipper Marth and tipper-Marth, and that is unfortunately painfully below average in this incarnation of Smash.
Dark Pit
Identical Moves: 26/29
Variant Moves: 2/29 (Neutral Special, Side Special)
Different Moves: 1/29 (Final Smash)
Shared Custom Moves: All of them. However, the neutral and side special customs use Dark Pit's weapon's properties.
Other Differences: His F-Tilt is weaker than Pit's, killing at significantly higher percentages. One of his taunts also allows him to briefly dodge things as if he sidestepped something. His main difference from Pit lies in his choice of weapons, and his Final Smash where he uses his strongest weapon: the Dark Pit Staff.
edited 1st Feb '15 9:02:03 AM by Folt
Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!I have no issue with Dr. Mario, who exists partly to act as a Melee!Mario moveset, nor do I have an issue with Lucina, who at least is a fan-favorite character from a long-running franchise. Dark Pit, however, still really jars me- Kid Icarus really hasn't been enough of a thing to warrant three characters on the Character Select Screen, even with Uprising's big boost, especially not in the same game that cut Mother and Star Fox's character rosters by one each and still has left Captain Falcon all by himself in the F-Zero lineup. Another franchise should've gotten a made-in-five-seconds clone instead.
I sure said that!Oh, I'd love if Captain Falcon's Blood Falcon alt got the proper helmet, a different facial expression, and announcer lines. Both Blood Falcon and Dark Pit are prime alt costume material.
Physics and bodyplan is why I think Lucas could be a good Ness skin in the event of him not getting a slot, complete with his uniqueness.
Having a unique character be placed as an Alt. Costume is just something Sakurai would've liked doing, it might just feel like he's doing a character disservice by not giving them their own spot on the roster.
Also they would most likely have to share the Custom slots like Mii fighters.
edited 1st Feb '15 9:46:51 AM by randomness4
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.![]()
He would...?
Why would he argue his own lack of uniqueness?
He doesn't play differently, he's just a character skin.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.EXACTLY. It is a good way of making characters work in Smash without having to rebalance them and have people complain about overrepresentation. Canonical clones, or canonical users of the same style, and the like, can work just fine that way.
Ness and Lucas' gameplay differences are Smash-only, IIRC. They fit the same archetype as Mother characters. And, again, it is a good way of having underdog characters work properly. People wouldn't like two Pikmin slingers with some minor differences, or each Koopaling with his (and her) own slot.
By the way, my reason behind why 6 Pokemon is the optimal number for Smash.
◊
Grouped them together for show; I tend to play either Pokemon or Fire Emblem while I watch TV or while I was in (redundant) classes, so I have about 6 boxes full of IV bred, EV trained mons, and I happened to have the Smash representatives. Still, having 6 Pokemon in Smash means you can easily have a Smash team in Pokemon.
(And Raichu is awesome but underrated, and both it and Wigglytuff deserve to get at least a trophy in Smash).
x8 Or take away some of Palutena's customs for more space
x13 See, I don't understand why everyone is calling Wolf "a third Fox" when he is different in practically every asset, he never was a clone or semi-clone. Literally, the only things he had that were even remotely similar were his specials.
If anything, I'd rather not have Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt (though I still like the teamup character), Dr. Mario (again, still like him okay), and Villager in the game. I'd instead rather have Viridi (with Dark Pit as a Pit costume and voice), Krystal, Wolf, and Dixie Kong playable.
edited 1st Feb '15 10:42:23 AM by powerpuffbats
AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!edited 1st Feb '15 10:44:10 AM by powerpuffbats
AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!

Sonic would be better...ZSS is slightly better with a slightly better/worse recovery.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.