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Sterok Since: Apr, 2012
#67001: Jan 2nd 2015 at 8:45:42 AM

I'm not optimistic about Snake's return as long as Konami is in its current state. And while Square will work with Nintendo, they only seem to do so because Nintendo is the market leader in Japan. So while they should be next, I don't think it will happen.

I'm calling it now. The next third party character will come from Level 5 and their soon to be most famous character. Jibanyan from Youkai Watch will be the next. In the next Smash game of course.

For DLC, I find Wolf, then Lucas, then Dixie the most likely. But we'll hopefully find out in the next Direct.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#67002: Jan 2nd 2015 at 9:14:36 AM

How does Lucy compare against Marth anyway?

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#67003: Jan 2nd 2015 at 9:43:10 AM

Lucina generally does 12.5% more damage and knockback than untipped Marth... and tipped Marth generally does 25% more damage and knockback than Lucina. Marth also has interesting properties in regards to his attacks hitting shields and stuff which make him safer to use offensively (and I dare-say defensively as well). Lucina is also shorter, but also has slightly worse range than Marth (most noticeable in terms of vertical reach: Marth has an easier time hitting opponents standing on Battlefield platforms with his jab and forward smash for example). Shieldbreaker and Counter animations are different, but otherwise have the same frames and thus the same speed for both. Attack speed and other physics are the same.

The big change between them is that Lucinas attacks have consistent damage and knockback while Marth's do more damage with the tip (hence "tipper"). Exceptions include 1. Down Smash: Lucina's hitboxes send opponents in the same angles that untipped and tipped Marth would send them. 2. Dair: Meteor tipper is not the usual tipper, hence Lucina must time her attack like Marth, and she gets increased damage if she tips her dair, though Marth do even more damage if he meteors. It's technically balanced out by the fact that untipped Marth does even less damage than she does if she doesn't tip her Dair, but Marth also has a conventional tipper hitbox separate from the meteor sweet-spot. 3. All custom variations other than the Dancing Blade variants: Marth does not have tippers on any of his special variants beside the Dancing Blade ones.

If you look at this, you might see that Lucina at a high enough level is woefully underpowered compared to a similiar-level Marth from first glance as she has to play as a Marth with inferior offensive options and kill power and it makes Marth a terrifying character for her to take on in battle since he can execute all of her strategies better and get rewarded with ridiculous kill power for it.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#67004: Jan 2nd 2015 at 9:56:16 AM

And from what I'm hearing Marth's already around the bottom of the tier in this installment...

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."
Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#67005: Jan 2nd 2015 at 10:24:30 AM

[up]Marth's placement has been all over the place so far, actually.

Since Sakurai needed a Mario clone for Melee

I do not understand this statement.

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#67006: Jan 2nd 2015 at 10:29:26 AM

[up] Sakurai had the choice of including King Dedede or six characters whose moveset was based upon other fighters in the roster for Melee, as the time he had only allowed one or the other. He went with the latter and made clone characters of Mario, Link, Fox, Pikachu, Captain Falcon, and Marth. He considered Wario as a Mario clone, but thought that Wario "deserved better than that". So Dr. Mario was picked and Wario was saved for Brawl.

edited 2nd Jan '15 10:30:25 AM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#67007: Jan 2nd 2015 at 10:29:50 AM

Well, everyone's placement has been all over the place, really. But I do tend to see Marth more towards the lower half of the tier.

In any case, it seems that if there's oen character that is now doubt the worst in the game, that's Mii Swordfighter tongue.

[up] And yet he decided to make Ganondorf a Captain Falcon clone? just bugs me

edited 2nd Jan '15 10:31:04 AM by WackyPancake

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."
IrishZombie Since: Dec, 2009
#67008: Jan 2nd 2015 at 10:30:35 AM

Given that Lucina's damage is more balanced throughout her blade than Marth, shouldn't that theoretically mean that she can afford to fight in closer quarters? Or does that not end up mattering much?

Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#67009: Jan 2nd 2015 at 10:31:36 AM

When your attack speed is the same as Marth's... no, it does not.

[up][up] Ganondorf had the right build and was a tad more well-known than characters like Blood Falcon or Black Shadow.

edited 2nd Jan '15 10:32:37 AM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#67010: Jan 2nd 2015 at 10:33:29 AM

It's not that I mind Ganondorf being a clone of the Captain, but you've got to admit it's a rather odd choice.

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#67011: Jan 2nd 2015 at 10:38:08 AM

It's not that I mind Ganondorf being a clone of the Captain, but you've got to admit it's a rather odd choice.

It's an odd choice yes, but given that Ganondorf had the right build AND it'd be one more playable character for the roster and one of the more iconic Nintendo villains at the time, I can see the logic in it.

His latter fighting style probably is because it worked unusually well (and so that older fans of Melee Ganondorf's playstyle wouldn't be alienated).

edited 2nd Jan '15 10:38:22 AM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
BurntMario Oh hai TV Tropes from Your nightmares Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Oh hai TV Tropes
#67012: Jan 2nd 2015 at 10:47:30 AM

i'm more surprised by the fact that Ganondorf wasn't immediately considered for Melee the same way Bowser was. Sure, Bowser is much more recognizable of a villain than Ganondorf, but 'Dorf certainly had a lot of potential to be a unique character. Somewhat related to this, King Dedede was originally going to be in the original game.

Call me Willy Whistle 'cause I can't speak, baby. Something in TV Tropes really drove me crazy.
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#67013: Jan 2nd 2015 at 10:51:19 AM

There's also evidence in the original game's sound bank that Final Smashes were planned even back then.

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#67014: Jan 2nd 2015 at 11:12:39 AM

If we omit the clones, these characters would have been the only new characters in Melee:

Bowser
Peach
Zelda/Sheik
Ice Climbers
Mewtwo (Unlockable)
Marth (Unlockable)
Mr. Game & Watch (Unlockable)

Two new Mario series characters, one-and-a-half (latter two) Zelda series character(s), one new Pokémon character, and three characters from series that weren't veteran series. Mewtwo was an iconic villain and Pokémon legendary at the time, thanks to the movie. Zelda had more consistent appearances and was, well, the namesake of her series, though this is probably around the time where the series' popularity would (or had) taper(ed) of somewhat in Japan, compared to the west (and that might be why Ganondorf wasn't a big priority... aside from the fact that his boar form was kinda more well-known at the time). Marth was the hero of the first game in a franchise big in Japan, and also came from one of Nintendo's primary strategy series... and Mr. Game & Watch was basically Nintendo's first real videogame character. Ice Climbers came in by virtue of possible uniqueness and selected over Pit and Balloon Fighter.

With the clones: we got Dr. Mario since Sakurai felt that Wario being a Mario clone would be disrespectful to his character (Dr. Mario gained enough individuality through Melee to make a comeback latter on in his original role as a spearate Moveset Clone despite being one of the characters cut from Brawl). Young Link's inclusion was because he's actually somewhat important as both the original portrayal of Link and the fact that Adult Link doesn't appear in all Zelda games (He would latter be replaced by Toon Link, who would basically be a Luigified Link and Young Link's successor). Falco was probably added because of his popularity among Star Fox fans and the series hadn't begun to seriously taper off at the time. Pichu's inclusion was most likely because of Pikachu's popularity and the fact that he could design it to be the kind of Joke Character that Jigglypuff ultimately did not end up as. Ganondorf, as stated above, had the right build for a Captain Falcon clone, and despite the Zelda series becoming somewhat less popular in Japan, he was still one of the more iconic Nintendo villains at the time. The fire effects on Captain Falcon's attacks could easily be turned into darkness effects for Ganondorf. Finally, Roy was added to market the new, upcoming Fire Emblem.

From here on out, we know the history: Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, and Roy would be axed for Brawl while Falco and Ganondorf would now be included in the initial roster plans onward (because they became semi-clones from here on out). Young Link was cut, but received a successor in the form of Toon Link who basically Luigified YL from Link. For Smash 4, Dr. Mario would make a comeback because he'd be easy to make and because making him an alt would be kind of disrespectful following his established individuality, and Mewtwo would become a bonus character through DLC. The Ice Climbers, who had debuted in Melee and stayed in Brawl due to their unique playstyle, was cut since they didn't work properly on the 3DS and because they wouldn't really have anything new on the horizon.

edited 2nd Jan '15 11:14:47 AM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Eldrake Since: Oct, 2009
#67015: Jan 2nd 2015 at 11:17:11 AM

I hope Nintendo does something special for Scandinavia, since we don't get Club Nintendo and thus can't register our games.

Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#67016: Jan 2nd 2015 at 12:01:49 PM

Here's a random thought I had for the Ice Climbers. I know, I know, not good to speculate like this, but

what if there was only one Ice Climber model-wise, but every attack would have a second, delayed hitbox (that would even take into account the attack being interrupted, if possible), and there would be an 8-bit Ice Climber who'd be there to show you when that delayed hitbox would come.

Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#67017: Jan 2nd 2015 at 12:03:10 PM

[up] More on the unlikely side, I'd say.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#67018: Jan 2nd 2015 at 12:06:47 PM

Yeah, the thing about the Ice Climbers is not only delayed attacks, but also the fact that they depend of a second character that can be knocked off for good. Do what you say, and the gimmick dies.

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."
Numbuh1234 Since: Apr, 2014
#67019: Jan 2nd 2015 at 12:08:35 PM

I know.

I was just spouting a second alternative that would still have the 'two at once' dealio, but might (MIGHT, I don't know what would be easier to program) be easier to run on the 3DS.

WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#67020: Jan 2nd 2015 at 12:10:37 PM

Or perhaps we could make them look flat and 8-bit, like some of the assist trophies.

Hey, it's better than nothing.

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#67021: Jan 2nd 2015 at 12:14:47 PM

Anyways, some clone gimmicks as of Smash 4 (will only list characters who stayed clones and haven't been updated to semi-clones):

Dr. Mario: Mighty Glacier Mario. Also old!Moveset Mario as of Smash 4 (including Mario's rather not-so-mobile-compared-to-Luigi's Tornado as his down special).
Pichu: Joke Character version of Pikachu (and in general).
Roy: Opposite of Marth: Up-close to hit hard instead of at the tip.
Lucina: Skill Gate Character.
Dark Pit: Different Final Smash, changed arrow and Side B physics. In that way, he offers a character that's very close to the original, yet still somewhat different meaning that the choice between the two is somewhat more preference-based than usual Moveset Clones.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#67022: Jan 2nd 2015 at 12:26:46 PM

[up][up]That's not any different...they would still be models, just flat models with a sprite look.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#67023: Jan 2nd 2015 at 12:31:25 PM

I thought they only did that with Game and Watch. I believe the retro assist trophies are actual sprites.

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#67024: Jan 2nd 2015 at 12:31:47 PM

Also, just to add salt to the wound in regards to Marth and Lucina: Marth's exclusive Event is a match against her where you have to win on Hard in order to get the reward. That is probably the easiest "Clear this event on Hard Difficulty." requirement I've ever done, and I'm not a Marth player, and that's because I kept getting accidental tippers giving me a huge HP advantage on Lucina.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#67025: Jan 2nd 2015 at 1:05:19 PM

[up][up]For a playable character that would be the case, assist trophies are just sprites pasted over hit-boxes.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.

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