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Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#65976: Dec 14th 2014 at 7:33:06 AM

Zebrahead(the composers of His World) are not owned by Sega, so no, Sega cannot just simply allow the song to be rearranged. Simply licensing the use of the song is not that hard. Asking the artists if you can outright change it is not so easy. I doubt Crush 40 were just suddenly allowed to do a remix, but had to get licensing fees too.

It's justified that they went with the instrumental instead of going to the straight creators of the song just to remake it. The real question is whether the original remix(Crush 40) had swearing in it or not. Also, I'm not sure if that came out before or after Brawl. If it's after, it's kind of pointless(assuming it had no swearing) to use that when you have a previously licensed use of the instrumental you could just port over with no hassle from anyone. Call it lazy, but the less hassle, the better. From a developer's point of view, it makes the most logical sense to add as much as possible while being able to save money or dealing with as little hassle over licensing as possible.

Now, to note, the DK Rap was a rather famous song and while it had less than great reception(it was intended to be a joke song, not a serious one, but hey, fans had a different opinion), it also was made by a composer in the UK, and also, it was probably easier to ask to slightly modify it. Since it's a one-word change, it worked well. It also flowed well using Heck over Hell. His World might be a bit harder to remove the word "ass" specifically while keeping the song feeling the same or near the same. With music, remixing it has to be done carefully, otherwise it can completely change the song(the Crush 40 version of His World is really freaking different). None the less, licensing fees do play a role here. Instrumental a bit less.

And as strange as it sounds, the DK Rap has its own entry on Wikipedia. XD(but a lot of it was due to actual reception justifying an entry. There was a lot to say).

Shadow?
Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#65977: Dec 14th 2014 at 7:35:51 AM

That's all well and good but I'm pretty sure Sega negotiates full rights to the songs they commission from Zebrahead and Crush 40 and all them.

I mean, I might have that wrong, but it makes much more sense that that'd be how it's arranged.

edited 14th Dec '14 7:36:04 AM by Pulse

I sure said that!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#65978: Dec 14th 2014 at 8:09:00 AM

There's absolutely zero evidence to suggest that Sega owns the rights to do anything but allow the songs to be put unmodified in the games. In addition, you do need straight permission from the creators of the songs due to copyright laws(including in the UK) to use the song in any money-related product, period.

Modifying a song is a copyright issue, and you definitely need permission no matter what. Let's also remember Zebrahead is not owned by Sega in any way, and is just as 3rd party as they are(if you will). Sega needs permission to use their songs in general(which they have), but needs to ask before modifying any song. As did Crush 40. And so would Sakurai. Or he could just use the already created Instrumental, while paying quick licensing fees for that, with a quick permission asked, and not jump through a ton of hoops and possibly tons of cash(which is just unnecessary for a song remix) just for a single song. Also, there is his philosophy that lyrics can be distracting over instrumentals. He's right, actually. You don't need them to fight. Many songs from the Sonic series are fun to listen to, but don't pump you up during battle, and to be honest, I'd say the Instrumental(never mind it was way easier for him to use that anyway since he couldn't remix it without jumping through some hoops as is).

And since Sega does not own Zebrahead, they cannot just remix the song without permission. They clearly had permission to do the Instrumental well beforehand. But that was it. Crush 40 needed to get permission to, and clearly did. I cannot find any info on when they remade His World, though. Assuming it had no swearing in, it would've made sense to ask permission to use that version for Brawl(and assuming Sakurai wanted more lyric-based songs, too, which probably played a role anyway). There's pretty much copyright and philosophy reasons to not have a remix. And is very justified for doing so(budgets, hassles...), even if fans weren't as happy.

edited 14th Dec '14 8:10:29 AM by Irene

Shadow?
Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#65979: Dec 14th 2014 at 8:42:32 AM

Also, there is his philosophy that lyrics can be distracting over instrumentals. He's right, actually.

So I take it we're all just casually ignoring how this comprises the majority of Sonic's musical representation anyway, as brought up not even a whole page ago?

Regardless, the average YT upload of said remix was uploaded several months prior to Brawl's release. Also worth mentioning that there are people responsible for the few Sonic themes that did make it in that aren't just Crush 40.

edited 14th Dec '14 8:43:48 AM by Demonfly

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#65980: Dec 14th 2014 at 8:54:25 AM

Are there any Smash 64 songs besides Kongo Jungle and Yoshi's Story available? I don't have that many CD's yet.

On a related topic, what songs in Smash 3D are not also in U?

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#65981: Dec 14th 2014 at 8:55:34 AM

It does not compromise Sonic's representation at all.

It's also highly possible he considered the Instrumental version better for fighting(I couldn't agree more. It fits surprisingly well without the lyrics). And that answers the Crush 40 version. The Crush 40 version is not actually in 06(unlike the Instrumental and the Zebrahead version), so he might not actually have been able to simply ask Sega to let him use that, and had to jump through more hoops. And when one has swearing in it, it's remix or instrumental, with one that is guaranteed less licensing fees or none at best.

And the others do fit a bit better too. The lyrics aren't nearly as distracting in general. They're just there. The thing about His World is that the lyrics are a majorly notable bit of the song, one you really want to listen to. The other ones were also shortened for quick verses as well, meaning that the lyrics were not meant to be distracting at all. Also, since the lyrics also repeated(and some of the songs chosen had naturally repeating lyrics like Seven Rings in Hand, namely the Title version of the theme which ignores many verses, thus, is pretty much the exact same thing that Brawl uses, instead of the full version), they were easier to ignore after a while. Sonic Boom was the least affected.

Another reason may be because 06 is not a game that appeared on any Nintendo system whatsoever, interference by Nintendo itself over using it is possible. We don't exactly know why the Instrumental was used. It's very clear using the version with swearing was already out. That left two; A remix that required permission, or the Instrumental that required less permission. And one may have cost more money(also, I'm listening to the remix, and to be frank, it's severely distracting, way more than the original. To the point that I could not battle during it at all. I could with the Instrumental or the original, but the remix just doesn't mesh well while fighting and concentrating on an opponent). It's a kickass theme, but not for games that require attention. None of the other lyric themes are very distracting in Brawl. I have not listened to the Wii U ones.

As for Smash 4, him just reusing the same ones in Brawl was probably super easy if not getting a shrug from Sega at best.(I imagine Sonic Boom came into some issues due to the new show, if only due to confusion since the show debuted not that long ago, but I have no idea why Super Sonic Racing was removed)

Shadow?
Laniv Since: Aug, 2010
#65982: Dec 14th 2014 at 10:45:56 AM

Palutena's Guidance in Japanese:

Link-sama~

edited 14th Dec '14 10:47:16 AM by Laniv

Keybreak (Long Runner)
#65983: Dec 14th 2014 at 10:51:34 AM

@Baffle The results screen in Smash 4 is the character select theme from 64, but that's all I can see. Though pretty much all the stage themes from 64 are in the Smash 4 in rearrangements because they were all so simple anyway.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
YuukiAsuna from New Aincrad Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#65984: Dec 14th 2014 at 11:46:52 AM

Holy shit at Viridi's japanese voice.

Somehow, I feel glad that I watched an English playthrough instead of a Japanese one.

edited 14th Dec '14 11:47:31 AM by YuukiAsuna

MMORPGs are serious business.
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#65985: Dec 14th 2014 at 11:55:24 AM

They took out Sonic Boom? That was one of my favorite themes for Green Hill Zone in Brawl! Right behind the Angel Island remix!

I have a message from another time...
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#65986: Dec 14th 2014 at 12:00:24 PM

Do they at least have You Can Do Anything? Actually, was that ever in these two Smash games?

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Beaver Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#65987: Dec 14th 2014 at 12:09:24 PM

Do they have Live and Learn?

ortheknucklesraps?

Is this a Jo Jo reference?
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#65988: Dec 14th 2014 at 12:20:09 PM

[up][up]No it wasn't, not really...no.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#65989: Dec 14th 2014 at 12:24:02 PM

Not to get fully into this - since I think the issue is a bit bigger than just one song - but ever since Sonic 3 Sega has ensured that every song used in their games is their own property (to avoid the debacle from Sonic 1, 2 and the Master System games). It's their standard business practice, and there's no reason to assume they made a singular exception for no discernable reason, so it's unlikely that either Tomoyo Ohtani or Zebrahead owns the rights to His World.

It's similar to how if you look in the music collection in Smash, all the songs are credited as being composed by Nintendo, not their actual original composers. It ensures that the company doesn't have to pay royalties or negotiate with original creators to continue to use content that is in their games.

edited 14th Dec '14 12:43:57 PM by KnownUnknown

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#65990: Dec 14th 2014 at 12:42:55 PM

Depends if Smash Wiki is correct on the reason that they used the Instrumental due to copyright issues(I'll ask about that, but it's beyond logical with how the law actually works. Unless you outright buy it from someone, the creator of something is always the proper copyright owner of the character/song/book/etc. That's how it always works). And no, I'm pretty sure they don't own a song an Artist that isn't on their payroll specifically makes. At best, they're allowed to distribute it, but copyright doesn't work that way. His World is owned by Zebrahead, not Sega. They clearly have the rights to put it in the game, but they don't have the right to remix it at any moment.

Shadow?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#65991: Dec 14th 2014 at 12:49:04 PM

Again, it's standard business practice. When you work for a company, typically the things you create are the property of that company - and there's typically a contract in place to ensure that you can't sue or claim rights. It's not just standard, it's ubiquitious: even if you have the off chance of contributing a new idea or content to a company's product, you will typically get that "all content created is express propery to X Company" bit in your agreement or contract. The band would have to sign something like that to even work on the game for Sega, just like Crush 40 or any of the other people who made performed songs for Sega, and Tomoyo Ohtani (who actually composed the song) definitely had to know that was the deal by that point given how much music he had already composed for them by that point.

This isn't something new that Sega cooked up or anything, it's been common knowledge and practice for decades (like most elements on the business side of copyright law, I'd bet it originated with Disney, but I'm not sure) - it's basically how copyight law works with very rare exceptions. Think of it in a universal sense: voice actors (who, like musicians, are also typically freelancers by trade)do not own the depictions of characters they voice, for instance, despite that being a similar situation. As a rule of thumb, if you want ownership of something you created for a company, you have to fight for it. Really hard, unless the company is open to it (which Sega is known for not being) or circumstances are lucky.

And again, Sega's been making very sure those contracts were used exclusively since Sonic 3, specifically because they got into trouble with that in regards to the predating games (the music apparently belonged to Masato Nakamura, and that's why all the recurring music was changed for Sonic 3, for instance, or why they rarely used songs from the earlier games that weren't Green Hill Zone before Generations). And because Sega is against exceptions to that rule, the only reason I can think of that a song officially associated with Sonic wouldn't be owned by Sega is if it were a song used in an adaptation and not a Sega production (in which case it would probably be owned by the company that made the adaptation - for example the music original to Sonic Boom might be owned by Big Red Button).

edited 14th Dec '14 1:18:17 PM by KnownUnknown

KoujiTamino Since: Jul, 2010
#65992: Dec 14th 2014 at 12:51:46 PM

I prefer using the Mew Method for CDs because Master Orders requires money that I'd rather be spending on trophies. Also if you lose a ticket then you get nothing, whereas with the Mew Method I'm getting 300-600 gold even if I only pick up a small handful of CDs.

I was a bit confused by Roll Out, Wonderful 100!'s stage placement at first, but it actually makes perfect sense. Jumping from plane to plane and fighting on the wings sounds just like something you'd do in that game.

edited 14th Dec '14 12:58:16 PM by KoujiTamino

doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#65993: Dec 14th 2014 at 12:56:58 PM

What's the Mew/New Method? Does it require hoping that the RNG is kind to you?

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
KoujiTamino Since: Jul, 2010
#65994: Dec 14th 2014 at 1:00:49 PM

Pretty much, but unlike Master Orders it isn't predicated on being good at the game. tongue

With Master Balls-only on high there's a better chance of Mew showing up and dropping a gift. Sometimes the gift is a CD. You have to be fast, though. They started blinking out of existence almost instantly.

For me, I actually enjoy the chaos of a bunch of Legendary Pokemon all over the place so I don't find it to be tedious at all. YMMV.

Keybreak (Long Runner)
#65995: Dec 14th 2014 at 1:06:32 PM

I got up to over 200k gold doing the "Beat Classic on 7.0 with everybody" challenge, so I'm not really hurting for money. Still gotta beat All-Star on hard with everybody so that'll get me some more money when I feel like gambling my time for those Final Smash trophies.

It's not easy beating those challenges casually. You really have to focus on getting through them.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#65996: Dec 14th 2014 at 1:07:14 PM

[up][up]This brings up terrifying flashbacks of trying to unlock Pichu in Melee. Then I gave up and just played 200 Vs. battles.

edited 14th Dec '14 1:07:27 PM by doctrainAUM

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Beaver Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#65997: Dec 14th 2014 at 1:15:38 PM

[up]

Anyone remember trying to unlock Kongo Jungle 64 in Melee?

You had to beat the entire 15 Minute Multi Man Melee

I know I wasn't the only one to do this. Donkey Kong, center stage, down-B

edited 14th Dec '14 1:56:39 PM by Beaver

Is this a Jo Jo reference?
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#65998: Dec 14th 2014 at 1:54:54 PM

I've pinpointed one of my weaknesses; Even though I do know how to predict my opponent, I have no idea what to do with that knowledge. Knowing someone's about to shoot you doesn't do much good if all you can do is go "oh crap oh crap oh crap" instead of knowing what to do to avoid it.

Any tips to iron this out?

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#65999: Dec 14th 2014 at 1:57:24 PM

Depends on what you're expecting.

If they're going to attack, then either shield or dodge.

If they're going to shield, then grab em and throw em out of it.

If they're going to dodge, then be prepared to shield or dodge when they counter.

The CPU's all tend to fight the same so you start to learn how they handle when you fight them enough.

People meanwhile tend to rely on certain attacks, so once you fight them enough you can learn to respond accordingly.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay

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