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FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#62176: Oct 23rd 2014 at 7:55:58 PM

The Flying Man isn't really that bad, their attacks are pretty to dodge and they're pretty easy to kill as well.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#62177: Oct 23rd 2014 at 7:56:30 PM

I still wish Ridley was playable.

I'm not going to let this go.

Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#62178: Oct 23rd 2014 at 7:57:26 PM

They're disruptive externalized elements and they do not start showing up at predictable times, so they arbitrarily favor whoever is nearest to the top-right platform when they pop in.

I sure said that!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#62179: Oct 23rd 2014 at 7:58:45 PM

So they can be slightly disruptive, but are pretty standard hazards. Okay, so not even close to what Ridley is like.

Yeah, I like this idea. Ridley is now the most unique helper in all of Smash. Isn't he the second one by design? I don't think we've ever had enemies we could recruit to our side from a stage. Flying Man and Ridley are it, right?

Shadow?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62180: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:00:55 PM

That is extrapolating an awful lot from a series not known to handle random elements with balance in mind. The Smash Ball, the Yellow Devil and the Flying Men all take semi-randomized amounts of damage before giving up, why would Ridley be any different?

Assuming that a mechanic designed to be used by the player is designed to be triggered and predictably utilized by the player is a lot more logical than assuming the player has no input on its use or action whatsoever. Likewise, most of those "extrapolations" were things the Direct actually said were the case, not assumptions. (I'm watching the Direct right now, and I literally got to that section just before I posted that).

The Smash Ball, at least in brawl, took a predictable amount of damage as well - the give or take around 30% does not significantly change the acquisition of the item (that is to say, the same number/set of attacks does with the same character will acquire the Smash ball in the same amount of time), and I always assumed it was implemented to either prevent players from taking it in one shot or to ensure that no one character can acquire it too much more easily than the others - and give it a more balanced use with multiple players as a result.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:03:30 PM by KnownUnknown

Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#62181: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:01:07 PM

The only differences between the Flying Men and Ridley (at least so far) is that the former automatically joins the user when contacted and that the latter gets some kind of boost as the match progresses. Same exact concept otherwise.

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#62182: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:01:25 PM

I thought Flying Man showed up at a set time?

Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#62183: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:03:17 PM

I've had matches where they start showing up almost right away and I've had matches where they don't show up for almost a full minute.

And to show I'm not the no-funsie everyone seems to be thinking I am- I liked Halberd, for example. That was a stage with well-designed hazards, because while the Combo Cannon's attacks were somewhat randomized as to when it would use them, there was always plenty of warning when a shot was being prepared and always were ways to avoid it. It was a cohesive element of the stage that could be planned around instead of an invasive element that shows up just to shoot the fight off into a completely different direction.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:08:05 PM by Pulse

I sure said that!
Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#62184: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:09:19 PM

When we play chaotic, we aren't exactly focusing on that every little tidbit is balanced. It's more like "HOLY SHIT, RIDLEY-MAN-SMASHBALL! GO GO GO!" "OH NO, KIRBY TOOK 'IM! KILL IT!" "METAL FACE!" And then everyone just kind of laughs, plays a few serious matches, and then it's back to chaos again.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:09:40 PM by Elbruno

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#62185: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:10:56 PM

Uh, it's entirely possible to dodge the Bosses's moves, hell, Yellow Devil's attacks are pretty easy to see coming and so are the Flying Men. Either that or I have godly reflexes.

Keybreak (Long Runner)
#62186: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:11:38 PM

Pages, pages, pages and pages.

I love the announcer. And the announcer's voice. And the announcer's voice actor. And the fact that the announcer is pretty much Master Hand.

I love Master Hand~

Look at all them facts, plus the extras. My favorite things were 8-player Smash, Bigger Battlefield, lots of music, Palutena's and Star Fox's "codecs", the All-Star rest stage, carrying over custom fighters, trophy boxes (didn't know I wanted them), Stage Builder and MEWTWO COMING HOME. As a "new fighter". ;p I wonder if they'll add any extras...

Also, they found a cool way to make Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings look cool, because playing with them is just eh.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#62187: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:12:02 PM

[up][up][up]Whereas I really don't understand the appeal of playing a game where the outcome is decided by factors entirely or almost entirely outside the players' control. It just fosters bad feelings amongst people who feel they suffered an illegitimate loss and creates a flimsy confidence in the winners who will have their balloon popped as soon as the RNG stops favoring them.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:16:34 PM by Pulse

I sure said that!
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#62188: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:12:30 PM

[up][up][up]I think the latter has already been well-established.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62189: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:13:06 PM

Nintendoland music! Eeeee!

[up][up] It depends on the hazard. While Metalface is a more traditional "boss out of nowhere," Ridley and his functions are far more controllable and predictable by the player - if still very powerful.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:14:18 PM by KnownUnknown

Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#62190: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:13:50 PM

[up]x5: Now combine the YD's size and FM's persistence, then deal with the fact that, alongside that huge, vicious reptile having its way with the stage, you also need to prioritize an otherwise regular opponent who may very well be immune to its attacks.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:14:52 PM by Demonfly

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#62191: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:15:22 PM

If Nintendo ever does a real theme park, they should play this theme in the background.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#62192: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:15:26 PM

[up][up][up][up] And I knew someone would say that tongue

[up][up][up][up][up] Because it's not like we're playing seriously, I can get upset if I lose to a cheap shot, but it's only for a brief moment. Besides, it's my fault if I didn't dodge it unless it came from offscreen. Besides, if anyone wants to play a serious match, there are other stages for that. The game gives you options, you're not forced to face the bosses if you don't want to.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:15:42 PM by FullMoon

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#62193: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:16:40 PM

I say we wait and see how Ridley and the Pyrosphere actually play before passing on any judgements.

For all we know, he could be total weaksauce.

He still should have been playable. *Pout*

Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#62194: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:19:10 PM

Well, except in Classic and All-Star and For Fun- Which is ironic, because there's no fun in getting your face slammed into the ground over and over because another player got lucky and skill is not valued by the designers in much of the game.

There's also the issue of the fact that time and resources were devoted to creating something that demonstrably doesn't make the game better for everyone.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:20:07 PM by Pulse

I sure said that!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62195: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:20:34 PM

I typically play for the thrill of challenge and testing my skills, so while I typically play more straightforward tourney friendly matches (in part due to my friends' tendencies) I revel in the opportunity to strategize around new elements, drastically different elements to manipulate and new situations and weapons. Brinstar Depths was my favorite stage in Melee for exactly that reasons.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:23:17 PM by KnownUnknown

Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#62196: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:20:37 PM

Seriously, I think we can establish that no one will convince anyone here. We find the crazy chaos fun and manageable around, and you don't. Ain't more to it than that. Besides, it's not like Ridley shows his face on every stage.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:21:01 PM by Elbruno

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."
FullMoon feeling blue from Surface Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
feeling blue
#62197: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:20:46 PM

Well, outside of the fact that the Flying Men don't show up in All-Star, For Fun tends to be chaotic enough that adding a hazard really doesn't make much of a difference. Classic can be a bit frustrating though.

Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#62198: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:22:40 PM

I'm just really curious as to how this idea that "random = fun" came to be and why it apparently holds true for many people that aren't me. I'm not trying to say I'm better or that that's a lesser way to play, but I well and truly don't get it.

I would point out that when you're playing with items and stage hazards, if you're good at the game you likely won't be getting slammed around because other people got lucky. You'll be dealing with elements like someone who knows what they're doing and what to expect.
At the same time, enough of the items amount to "I Win" buttons that there's little to be done if the game hands someone a Gust Bellows or Hammer.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:23:53 PM by Pulse

I sure said that!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62199: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:24:32 PM

I would point out that when you're playing with items and stage hazards, if you're good at the game you likely won't be getting slammed around because other people got lucky. You'll be dealing with elements like someone who knows what they're doing and what to expect, and if they do get lucky it's not hard to neuter that luck. Items for the most part are just new weapons to plan around, and stage hazards are predicatable events that should factor into one's playstyle.

A lot fewer elements than they seem are actually random when you take the time to understand them.

At the same time, enough of the items amount to "I Win" buttons that there's little to be done if the game hands someone a Gust Bellows or Hammer.

I literally stopped having those sorts of situations happen to me once I started getting good at the game. I typically associate that sort of mentality with people who don't typically play with items, and thus aren't accustomed to / don't really know how to deal with them.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:27:12 PM by KnownUnknown

Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#62200: Oct 23rd 2014 at 8:24:43 PM

And I truly don't get why you find the chaotic elements are 100% unworkable around and annoying.

Honestly, we've derailed this thread long enough as it is. Let's agree to disagree and bring this thread back to spirit track.

A lot fewer elements than they seem are actually random when you take the time to understand them.

That's my point of view right there.

edited 23rd Oct '14 8:26:06 PM by Elbruno

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."

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