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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53326: Aug 15th 2014 at 1:26:10 PM

Ridley was actually fairly small in the Melee intro. Might be slightly bigger in the right perspective, but he was not that big.

It does come back to perspective a lot. Though he's smaller than he appears in the 3D games, he's still quite big in the Melee intro (at one point he's takes up a larger percentage of the screen than Samus despite her being right next to the "camera" and him being farther away) - I'd put him at at least Samus' size plus a half, maybe more - and they gave him a pretty noticeable redesign too.

The redesign aspect is pretty important (even in the Melee intro, he still doesn't look like he's designed to walk around normally instead of flying everywhere). It would be exceedingly difficult for Ridley to be scaled to a size comparable to the other characters and still keep his same frame and features while not having visual and mechanical problems, even if he does end up hunched over and walking like a crab.

edited 15th Aug '14 1:29:58 PM by KnownUnknown

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#53327: Aug 15th 2014 at 1:37:01 PM

Not nearly as difficult as you're making it. Somebody went ahead and used his SSE model over Charizard, and he looked quite natural at that size.

So, no, not really.

His size alone isn't an issue. Now, his wings or tail could make for a decent argument. Some work is required on them. Just scaling him, however, is particularly easy. Especially since his has multiple game models to use so they can find a good one to scale down.

And even with perspective, he was quite small overall compared to his boss versions. Small enough to even playable at that size, maybe a bit smaller.

Shadow?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53328: Aug 15th 2014 at 1:41:13 PM

If they used Charizard's model as a guide, then they must have redesigned Ridley because Ridley is extremely different design wise from Charizard, so I don't know where you get the idea that that contradicts my point.

And if they somehow managed to squeeze Ridley into Charizard without changing him at all, I'd like to see this model - at the very least the hitboxes and movements should match up strangely.

Small enough to even playable at that size, maybe a bit smaller.

1-1/2 times Samus' height is not playable size (remember that Samus is the tallest character in the game), and even if they do try it's not a size that's any kind of fair for the person unlucky enough to play Ridley.

edited 15th Aug '14 1:44:40 PM by KnownUnknown

NesClassic Meh-meh!? from Flyover Country Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: In another castle
Meh-meh!?
#53329: Aug 15th 2014 at 1:43:58 PM

I dunno about you, but maybe giving Ridley the ability to fold his wings down would help a deal in that department.

He can easily be downscaled, though I think they'd have to give him an original design that still looks very Ridley-like even at the smaller size.

I've seen the SSBB Ridley model overlayed on Charizard and I think he looks way too lanky and skinny using that design. The movements are plausible at the very least (not that Ridley should be a Charizard clone in any way, shape or form.)

🏳️‍⚧️she/her | Vio Rhyse Alberia
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#53330: Aug 15th 2014 at 1:59:09 PM

Samus is also not that big.

You're literally blowing how big the Melee intro version is out of proportion. And yes, that's an extremely playable size. A bit smaller is not a bad idea, though. He should clearly be the tallest, regardless.

And folding wings sounds perfect.

Shadow?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53331: Aug 15th 2014 at 2:00:15 PM

Another interesting idea I've seen is to have him be leaning over all the time, to keep his impressive size and shape in respect to Samus while making him seem shorter, though that would also run with the problem of making him longer than he is tall.

Also, his tail would have to have no hitbox/hurtbox unless it's doing something, which may have it's own problems as well.

My main gripe is with the really common "he's not to big/they can just shrink him" meme, because it strikes me as naive and - especially when it comes with a "the devs are just lazy" tag - is a bit disrespectful to all that needs to go into stuff like character design and mechanics, or even what the developers might want (maybe Sakurai wants to keep him comparable to Samus in that way).

Samus is also not that big.

If Samus is the tallest character in the game, then anything bigger than Samus is going to be comparatively bigger than the rest of the cast. Note that the only other characters around her size are Ganon and Bowser, who have had heavy restrictions put on them to ensure they're not broken and instead have been almost jokes in the earlier game - and they're not anywhere near as big as Ridley. Samus' moveset, and the variable strength of her normals, is likely built around projectiles for a similar reason

edited 15th Aug '14 2:04:29 PM by KnownUnknown

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#53332: Aug 15th 2014 at 2:02:29 PM

So, I was thinking about custom moves. Taking the seeming rule that the character model has to animate in the same way, with movement and projectiles and particles being up for changes it's interesting to speculate what could be done.

For exmaple, Samus.

I'm thinking her Charge Beam could be replaced with a Plasma Beam which goes through enemies, or a Wave Beam which goes through terrain and obstacles. Neither could be charged.
Missiles could be replaced wit Ice Missiles (less damage, chance to freeze) and the Seeker Missile (needs to lock on, less damage, extreme homing)

And for her Bombs? Well, Power Bomb (only one, takes more time to detonate, has a larger radius and power) is an obvious choice, but what if the other one was the Boost Ball? As in, Samus curls up, but charges up a boost instead of dropping a bomb. She could use it to quickly make distance, or crash into an enemy for damage.

I have a message from another time...
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#53333: Aug 15th 2014 at 2:04:15 PM

There is no reason his size needs to be directly proportionate to Samus' size. That's irrelevant(and putting in more work that's not needed by the developers. Why should they seriously care about that when making him playable with balancing in mind is the most important part). It doesn't matter if other series does it too. He just needs to be a good size where he can move decently, not too be beyond slow, and can be easily resizable via the two Mushrooms.

Another thing is to work on the range of his attacks. His long tail and wings needs to be worked around carefully.

[up] I wanted her Ice Missiles(is that the same thing as Ice Beam? I'm unsure.) for a while now. Custom moves just helps this.

edited 15th Aug '14 2:05:16 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Strawberryflavored Since: Sep, 2010
#53334: Aug 15th 2014 at 2:07:42 PM

[up][up]The Boost Ball would be cool.

As for alternate up+b specials, I'm thinking Gravity Boost(yes I realize this makes no sense out of water) and I can't think of another that's not the Screw Attack/Space Jump.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53335: Aug 15th 2014 at 2:13:25 PM

It's clearly relevant to the developers, since they've consistently done it since the beginning of the seires.

And it makes sense - making the characters of the same brand comparable to each other fits in with the point of the Mascot Fighter in the first place: to represent the series. That's why Ridley appeared in the last one as this monstrous boss that the player has to fight, because that's the role he fits in the series he comes from, and that's how to best represent him.

I'm not against having Ridley as a character, but these issues do exist.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#53336: Aug 15th 2014 at 2:28:37 PM

Please show me any actual statement where the developers made Ridley a boss because of that. Because the only actual thing Sakurai said is "he never thought of making Ridley playable."

His size was never brought up as any official reason, perhaps because it was never a reason he was unplayable in the first place. It(him being playable) was never an idea till people requested it after Brawl. Again, actual real statement applies here.

Size never mattered, and Sakurai has made that clear even in the Pic of the Day, when he said that characters are not always up to scale with their canon series. The fact that other characters in series generally had consistent size doesn't mean anything for Metroid. It just means it follows that for them.

There is no reason to believe a playable Ridley is going to be that big. He's not going to be that much bigger than Samus, since that would make next to impossible to be playable. That whole "consistent size" thing? Not important because they know that making sure he works overall in a playable environment is blatantly more important than some rule that doesn't even exist.(as no developer has gone on record saying every single Series has all their characters consistent to scale with each other. So again, you need to cite this to believe it's even a thing and nothing more than a coincidence)

At this point, these are just made-up rules to defend the poor "size matters" argument, even after Sakurai debunked that himself. We know the range of his moves are a legitimate issue. Him being smaller is not. Not one that the developers or Sakurai ever once said even. To put it bluntly, the size argument has been very weak, and the reasons so far aren't even real. It's too much speculation to defend it, and no actual facts. Whereas the facts actually make it clear size doesn't matter at all. So if people aren't buying the argument? It might be because it never worked. Or even was an official issue stated by the creators of Smash. So, no, saying it's an issue to solve when the issue may not even exist is kind of silly. Especially when there's evidence to believe it was never an issue in the first place. You can say that about the range, but at least there's a chance it could be an issue. That, and we see his major range in actual Smash gameplay alone, so we can definitely look at it as a legitimate issue.

edited 15th Aug '14 2:31:36 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#53337: Aug 15th 2014 at 2:33:47 PM

Screw Attack could have Space Jump Screw Attack (the rhythmic, laterally-focused one from Prime series), and Falling Arc Screw Attack (doesn't go as high, but is dangrous for the entire jump arc, until Samus lands)

I have a message from another time...
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53338: Aug 15th 2014 at 2:50:27 PM

[up][up] Please don't pull the "you're just making stuff up" card. Not when you arguments have been a long series of "that's not true" responses or vague assertions that just turn into "well that doesn't matter anyway"s when I actually respond to it. Now your main response is " well, they never out and said it," which is a bit tangential given that I've been talking about the design of the games themselves, which is evident even if Sakurai doesn't walk us through their every idea.

There are still parts of this discussion that are relevant, and will remain so no matter how much you try to dismiss them outright. Trying to do is just shutting down conversation.

Look, if you want to end the conversatuon, then I'm fine with changing the subject. If not, I'm fine with continuing too. Either way, there's no need to go into "you're just saying stupid stuff" territory.

Also, iirc Sakurai's statement wasnt talking about what we're talking about. He was referring to what we just went over as not being the same thing: the the characters aren't the characters don't take the general size of their series (Olimar being the size of a nickel) and are made to be of the same general scale, not about size consistency between characters of the same series. Just as a correction.

Addendum: Lol, my phone keeps auto correcting Sakurai as Samurai.

edited 15th Aug '14 3:07:24 PM by KnownUnknown

NesClassic Meh-meh!? from Flyover Country Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: In another castle
Meh-meh!?
#53339: Aug 15th 2014 at 3:21:44 PM

For Samus's Up B I came up with two ideas.

Charge Attack would be both powerful and get a lot of distance upwards, but it's only available when the Charge Beam is fully charged.

SenseMove would be a low-arcing somersault that lets Samus quickly move left and right, and the first few frames of it also make her invulnerable. It's like a speedy dodge roll that gives her full control over where she's going! But it sucks at recoveries...

🏳️‍⚧️she/her | Vio Rhyse Alberia
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#53340: Aug 15th 2014 at 3:23:18 PM

It kind of is made up. It's a pattern. If it's not stated, then you can't really say it exists here. If it was a rule, sure, fair point, but it's not one.

There is no actual rule that characters in the same series must be consistent with each other. A pattern doesn't make a rule, after all. You know what else is a pattern? Zelda and Sheik transforming into each other. And look what happened. Hey, remember when Charizard was a Pokeball in 64 and Melee? Quite a pattern, right? Boom, in Brawl, he's one of the 39 playable characters.

Basically, why should we take a pattern into account as if it mattered when no evidence actually says it really does. I highly doubt Ridley will be nearly that big, only maybe somewhat taller than Samus, because it would be a bit too big in the actual game itself. They need to make him a decent size, and citing a rule that is nonexistent won't prevent them from doing so. Scaling him down is not hard, nor is a fake rule going to make it hard. The first and most important part is balance, not some "consistent size" thing that doesn't exist.

Of course, if you can cite where they actually state this is how they develop characters, fair enough. But as of now, what you're talking about isn't a real thing to take into account because it's just a simple pattern and nothing more. Likewise, Bandai Namco is doing a lot of this, and their influence broke patterns before. Why would that stop now?

Shadow?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53341: Aug 15th 2014 at 3:33:38 PM

I am making an educated guess that they're going to continue to follow it, but I'm certainly not creating my evidence out of the whole cloth. I didn't make that up. This has happened across the whole series. I didnt make that up. It extends to the bosses, including Ridley I believe. I didn't make that up either.

I am then combining that to things I know about design, that characters are rarely designed certain ways unintentionally, especially in fighting games where such things have to be given lot of attention. As well as the impression that that's such a close correlation between the characters games and their appearances here that, given their level of attention to accuracy in other aspects of the characters design, is likely part of that (it makes more a sense than assuming they were matching their game appearances accidentally, since we know one of Smash's objectives is representation)

If you disagree with the idea that the trend should continue, then that's one thing. But just because you disagree with it doesn't make the trend not exist.

And again, we have the games themselves as proof. Aspects of the games don't not exist until Sakurai tells us they exist, especially in games already released. Game mechanics and design can be observed and understood.

edited 15th Aug '14 3:37:44 PM by KnownUnknown

Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#53342: Aug 15th 2014 at 3:35:28 PM

Honestly, you really should know better than to try and argue with Irene. tongue

edited 15th Aug '14 3:36:00 PM by Fawriel

TechPowah Just a simple hero from the room down the hall Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Just a simple hero
#53343: Aug 15th 2014 at 3:36:59 PM

What's this about Samus being the tallest character in the game? Are we talking Brawl or Smash 4, cause either way Ganon's been taller than Samus since Melee, and Rosalina and Bowser are joint tallest in Smash 4.

edited 15th Aug '14 3:40:07 PM by TechPowah

The New Age of Awesome is here! Not even the sky is the limit!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#53344: Aug 15th 2014 at 3:44:13 PM

[up] First, this kills your entire argument anyway. Second, that also means even if he is "somewhat" taller than Samus, he wouldn't be that tall.

And no, a trend is not relevant unless it's actually told to us it's a part of development. If his size is supposed to matter, we'd know. The only thing that matters is his scale is good according to the entire cast. A trend or pattern really isn't relevant. And no, the games doing that isn't real proof it will happen. Could it? Sure. But it doesn't make sense to take a trend into account unless it wouldn't hurt the game. Right now, if Ridley was 1 and 1/2 times Samus' height, he'd be a little too big for a normal fighter. Thus, it's blatant that the trend must be ignored, and it's kind of obvious the game developers will ignore it if they make him playable. It's just common sense to ignore something that is kind of unimportant. Plus, the fact Ridley has multiple different sizes among Smash itself in scale to Samus(the Melee and two Brawl versions are definitely not similar in sizes. There's somewhat large in Melee, and extremely big in Brawl. Exactly where is this "similar scale" in Smash? If anything, it definitely doesn't exist for Ridley in his showings).

What is important is his general range of attacks, something we know will matter, due to how fighting games plain out work. That's why it's better to talk about stuff we actually know matters. Right now, you're using a simple theory as proof of how they will develop him, not a fact. We know for a fact range matters. We really don't know if they care about his scale according to Samus, which means it doesn't really tell us anything about how he would be developed as a fighter. The reason I asked you to cite this is you're presenting as some kind of fact instead of a theory. As a theory, I can understand that entirely. As a fact, you need to be able to cite it from the developers' mouths, not just a pattern/trend we see, since that doesn't prove it will happen, just that it may happen.

If your argument is that it has a good chance to happen, I can't disagree really. If your argument is that it will happen, I disagree since we don't know.

edited 15th Aug '14 3:51:00 PM by Irene

Shadow?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53345: Aug 15th 2014 at 3:48:58 PM

Why? Even if Samus isn't the tallest she's still one of the tallest, and a character to towers over her will still dwarf Mario, who can be seen as the middle of the road size-wise, to an extreme extent.

As for the size necessarily being ignored, that's not totally true. They could always just make him a boss. They've done it before.

His range of attacks will probably depend on his size (as well as his gait, which will also depend on his size), so that's an issue as well.

As for me saying it will happen, as I just said I'm making an educated guess. I don't really see why they would change their design style for the sake of one character, when they could just as easily do something else.

edited 15th Aug '14 3:52:46 PM by KnownUnknown

Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#53346: Aug 15th 2014 at 3:51:23 PM

And as we all know, Ridley is famous for never having been a boss before, in his home series or in Smash. It'll be a brand new, fan-pleasing reveal and not at all old hat in a series that could have done something else with him.

I sure said that!
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#53347: Aug 15th 2014 at 3:58:01 PM

Let's talk about something less divisive and incendiary. Like whether items should be allowed.

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TechPowah Just a simple hero from the room down the hall Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Just a simple hero
#53348: Aug 15th 2014 at 4:06:17 PM

I'm fine with everything except the Dragoon, Daybreak and S-Flag, because the first two are kinda tedious to get all the pieces even with the huge gain for doing so, and the S-Flag is just a little TOO crazy an item for my tastes.

...Say, speaking of, what the heck would the S-Flag do in Coin Mode?

The New Age of Awesome is here! Not even the sky is the limit!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#53349: Aug 15th 2014 at 4:10:30 PM

Anything that might as well let you auto-win can stay off. Daybreak, Dragoon, Super Star, Bob-Ombs, X-Bomb, Smart Bomb, Gooey Bomb, Hammer, Golden Hammer, Home-Run Bat, Fan(due to the shield-breaking), Cloaking Device(prevents damage on you), S-Flag(I'm iffy on this one, since we need to see how easily you can get it to work), Smash Ball(due to some FS' being broken, and some not. If all were heavily balanced, this'd be fine. Many are OHKO's, anyway).

Nothing else I can think of, really. I mean, Sandbag, Food, and other Healing stuff can be moderated, depending the particular item.

Shadow?
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#53350: Aug 15th 2014 at 4:12:08 PM

I remove Brawl's Ray Gun because of how easily one can juggle someone to the edge of the stage with it.

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