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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#43001: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:18:32 AM

...You think that Snake's up-Smash and down-B are inherently advanced techniques?

Personally, I LOVE sticking Snake's C4 on people and detonating it. Sometimes in team matches I'll stick it on my ally and they'll run in like a suicide bomber.

edited 29th Apr '14 11:19:28 AM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#43002: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:21:38 AM

Oooo, I love sliding Up Smashes. Aside from Snake, Marth also has a great one for that.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#43003: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:21:50 AM

They're inherently unique. And by unique I mean weird—Snake never felt very Super Smash Bros to me. I don't remember anyone else who had something detach from them in their Up A smash.

And his C4 always bothered me too. He can detonate it whenever he wants and I think the computer always knew where he put it, though I could never see it.

So maybe it's partially bitterness. ;p Though if Snake didn't get into Smash 4 I wouldn't really cry...

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#43004: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:29:40 AM

I'd like to point out a common misconception: wavedashing isn't always the optimal choice for mobility in Melee. Some characters's wavedashes are really short (Peach, Falcon) while wavedashing in itself has an inherent weakness in a short amount of landing lag.

CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#43005: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:30:11 AM

My opinion on Wavedashing and other such exploits is that there's no shame in exploiting them while they're there, but they should be removed by the next installation/patch/update, like Brawl did. They're an artificial skill gap that favors input dexterity too heavily.

My problem is, it's just a really lame technique. It's obviously an exploit, it doesn't resemble normal movement at all.

Keybreak (Long Runner)
#43006: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:32:59 AM

Oh this is what it is.

Cause it's Luigi and he's naturally slippery. ;p And Peach is the slowest, probably cause she gets stopped by her dress.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#43007: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:33:16 AM

Yeaaah, wavedash is rather silly looking <_<

edited 29th Apr '14 11:34:50 AM by SpookyMask

Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#43008: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:37:11 AM

I'll be the obligatory opposition and say I actually like wavedashing because of the amount of options it provides for approaches. Plus, frankly, Marth's wavedash is really easy to do, so it was a lot of fun to play with when I first pulled it off.

TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#43009: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:39:56 AM

[up][up][up] I always knew that bottom of Luigi's shoes were made out of ice, but dear lord.

Only sometimes posts
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#43010: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:41:46 AM

I never got why Luigi was so slippery. Is it because he's klutzier for being taller?

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#43011: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:42:20 AM

Depends on what you understand as "normal movement". It actually feels a lot more natural to move back and forth while facing your opponent rather than having to turn all the way around and walk away anytime you want to put a little bit of distance between yourselves, doesn't it? I think that's actually the main use of wavedashing, isn't it? Spacing.

I'm a casual player, but I can understand the hardcore side. If someone puts the amount of effort into the game necessary to master complex techniques, there's no reason they shouldn't have an edge. Just mastering a technique by itself won't make you win anyway. If someone spent a thousand hours practicing his wavedashing while someone else spent a thousand hours mastering an entire character in and out, with all their match-ups, strengths and weaknesses in mind, the latter is going to win.

They're an artificial skill gap that favors input dexterity too heavily.
This might just be the only actually good argument against advanced techniques that I ever heard. Assuming that these techs are really a (or the) decisive factor, and that they require an extraordinary dexterity to even learn, not having those techniques might level the playing field for people who have other potentially competitive skills to bring to the table.

Not sure about the latter, though. I think most people would be able to master those inputs with enough practice?

[up] It's because of Super Mario Bros 2. Luigi was slippery in that game as well as a better jumper than Mario, and it stuck.

edited 29th Apr '14 11:44:13 AM by Fawriel

CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#43012: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:44:07 AM

I'll be the obligatory opposition and say I actually like wavedashing because of the amount of options it provides for approaches.

Sure, but why not replace it with something actually designed to do that?

Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#43013: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:44:50 AM

I don't like it because it's an obtuse technique, both as a method of movement proper and to pull off. Guess that's the same reason I don't like traditional fighters in general.

"Did you learn these 15 weird combinations of buttons and can do them properly without a problem? Good! Now learn to do them in a certain order without mistakes! And be careful for someone doing the same to you!"

edited 29th Apr '14 11:46:21 AM by Elbruno

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#43014: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:45:21 AM

That would be great, though, wouldn't it? I didn't dare to say it before, but even though it would make the control scheme a little more complicated yet, it would be great to have a button that locks the position you're facing and lets you move backwards without turning around.

[up] The thing is that, well, nobody's forcing you to play against hardcore players, right? If someone thinks they're being cool for completely destroying all their casual friends with advanced techniques, that's what good ol' peer pressure is for to solve. tongue

edited 29th Apr '14 11:47:13 AM by Fawriel

Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#43015: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:47:08 AM

[up]Now that's something I'd agree with. The first paragraph I mean.

Regarding the other one, my problem is not harcore players beating me, but the control schemes in general. Right-Down-Diagonal + Punch to do an uppercut or a 360 spin to do a grab? I never got used to that kind of stuff.

edited 29th Apr '14 11:51:01 AM by Elbruno

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#43016: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:49:48 AM

I love Super Smash Bros because it's not a Fixed Floor Fighter. And all the other stages that aren't Final Destination because they require a lot more adaptability.

@Fawriel Right! It's Lonely at the Top...take your first place at the expense of your friends. :P

By the way, I really love that new ranking system too. Course, you may just be a little better than all the other people who bought the game but hardly played, but you never know...at the least, whatever number you are you can be sure that that many people are playing.

edited 29th Apr '14 11:50:03 AM by Keybreak

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#43017: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:50:01 AM

Wouldn't intentional wavedash be rather hard to balance?

Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#43018: Apr 29th 2014 at 11:58:19 AM

Oh, I definitely agree about conventional fighters. I wanted to get into Skullgirls, but having to learn a game like that is just... hrrrrgh. That, and I can't imagine not getting bored of a fighting game where every stage is just a single plain. The mobility of Smash Bros is one of its greatest strengths.

But yeah, that's why I said you don't have to play against competitive people. As long as nobody else is using advanced techniques, you can still play Smash Bros as simply as it was intended.

@Spooky: I don't see why it would be?

@Keybreak: Man, I know! I never even used advanced techniques (except for short-hops, which I can apparently take some pride in because I hear those are hard to do?), and I still completely overpowered everyone I ever played against for the longest time simply because I played daily to bond with my father because the only alternative was to watch TV (he was also officially the worst regular Smash player in the world I swear to god) and I hated it so much because everyone would grow tired of fighting me so quickly.

edited 29th Apr '14 12:01:26 PM by Fawriel

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#43019: Apr 29th 2014 at 12:01:10 PM

[up][up]I don't think so.

Generally, a quirk of the physics engine is not going to be balanced in any way.

SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#43020: Apr 29th 2014 at 12:04:16 PM

^^Well, without it you'd have to balance stuff like speed, weight, size, attacks, etc, but with wavedash... Well, wavedash can allow slower characters move faster and such, right? So basically it'd be something on top of everything that affects everything

Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#43021: Apr 29th 2014 at 12:07:23 PM

If it was implemented as a normal movement mode, slow characters would still be slow and fast characters would still be fast. The main thing that I think would change is that you have to majorly cut down on the ending lag of attacks because any attack that leaves you open on a whiff would become entirely unusable if everyone had the ability to just step back and move right back in for the kill.

Keybreak (Long Runner)
#43022: Apr 29th 2014 at 12:07:50 PM

@Faw I always preferred to play with my friends rather than against them.

But then I realized that the computer could barely compare without some kind of handicap.

Also, I love auto-handicap. It balances even more until you can even out to something that seems fair.

Sure, playing raw is "fair", but beat a new player enough and they'll want to quit fast.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#43024: Apr 29th 2014 at 12:35:19 PM

@Cassidy The Devil: Except wavedashing allows for a lot more than just moving around. Because wavedashing requires a jump to execute, anything that can be cancelled by a jump can be cancelled with a wavedash, such as a shield, a shine, or just running.

edited 29th Apr '14 12:36:02 PM by Nap1100

CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#43025: Apr 29th 2014 at 12:38:04 PM

Uh, okay? Then why not replace it with something actually designed to do that?


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