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Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#42426: Apr 22nd 2014 at 3:26:30 PM

Extremely variable from gen to gen and from age group to age group.

Sorry, but that's one of the harder questions about the starters to answer.

I sure said that!
Hashil Since: Aug, 2010
#42427: Apr 22nd 2014 at 3:26:42 PM

Not very. They tend to get the least love. Doesn't hurt that it's a pretty awful type in game, too.

Haha wow. Three fairly different answers in the space of a minute.

edited 22nd Apr '14 3:28:04 PM by Hashil

Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#42428: Apr 22nd 2014 at 3:27:06 PM

With the brief exception of Snivy, consistently overshadowed by the other starter types.

If you mean as a type in general, then it's usually seen as sort of average.

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
Sterok Since: Apr, 2012
#42429: Apr 22nd 2014 at 3:34:11 PM

Venusaur: Ever since Charizard started getting all the official love (especially from Origins), Venusaur has fallen by the wayside since Blue gets Blastoise. Still notable for being Pokemon Special's Red's starter.

Meganium: Laughing stock of Johto, especially when compared to the other starters.

Sceptile: Would be big, except Blaziken is practically gen 3's mascot, and I Herd U Like Mudkips.

Torterra: Empoleon sort of stands out thanks to the anime, and Infernape is generally well liked compared to Torterra.

Serperior: Definitely liked more than Emboar, and probably even more than Samurott, but gen 5 starters aren't liked much.

Chesnaught: Generally overshadowed by Delphox and especially Greninja. Has its fans though.

D1Puck1T Since: Jan, 2001
#42430: Apr 22nd 2014 at 4:10:15 PM

[up][up][up]I never objected to Samus using tools. The "whip" was not the ideal choice, but she used a pistol in zero mission too. There's things she can't do without tools, obviously. What I objected to was the argument that the heels are justified because they let her do something it wouldn't be feasible for her to do otherwise. But since she's a superhuman, she really should be able to pull off the extreme jumps herself. My complaint is that Nintendo had a chance to try and fix some of the harm done by Other M, and doubled down in support of it instead. With heels.

"They look cool" Well, we'll have to disagree there, but whether or not something looks good or ridiculous is a matter of opinion.

High heels being bad for your health and a fairly significant public health problem, on the other hand, is just a well-established scientific fact. So I'm really not thrilled with the way they seem part of the standard "action girl" uniform, when in the real world they're more likely to cause osteoporosis or broken ankles than a boost. It's a bit like giving someone a cigarette weapon and saying it looks cool to justify it. Of course cigarettes are worse for you, but more people are accepting that fact. People are still in complete denial about the health risks of high heels.

Peach (and Wind Waker Zelda) are known to be heel-wearers, yeah. Actually of the girls confirmed for brawl, the jokeish Wii Trainer has a male variant, and Zelda, Peach, and Rosalina all wear dresses. With Samus now in heels, there's a downward curve in how Smash is representing women. Not intentional, no, just an unfortunate series of events and nobody noticing.

And yeah, preferred the old up-B. Nice callback to the grapple beam.

And yes, I understand the reasoning behind not making the rocket-propelled kicks into one hit kills. I'm just saying the rocket heels are problematic for a bunch of reasons, and the argument that they're justified because they serve a use has some big holes in it. Would there have been an ideal way to portray Samus outside the suit being superhuman? Maybe not, but the end result is a glossing over of her established abilities, coming at a bad time. It's just unfortunate that things came together this way.

[up][up] Marth is WAY overdue for being shown some respect. Putting him in the game gave Fire Emblem a HUGE boost, and Nintendo would be wise to build on that by letting him take the foreground. And it'd be nice to see some more Fire Emblem chars (Devdan? Danved? I'm just throwing out names here), but... odds not so good.

[up] The complete lack of Simon is galling. We're THIS CLOSE to a Captain N reunion!

I'm more surprised that Namco isn't doing anything with their library though. Not even a Pac Man? I know Kirby would be stepping on his toes, but since when has similar moves prevented a character from showing up in SB?

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#42431: Apr 22nd 2014 at 4:28:54 PM

Well, they've shown some Arcade-based summons in the game. Namco stuff is there. Old stuff, anyway. Likewise, I think people have forgotten Sakurai isn't shown Bandai-Namco any special consideration for a playable character choice. So I wouldn't really expect a playable character from them so easily. If they had one, Pac-Man is a reasonable choice, though.

Shadow?
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#42432: Apr 22nd 2014 at 4:32:55 PM

How is it glossing over? If the kicks are more powerful than the ones in Brawl, which were already strong, it's just an addition on top of what she already has.

Just, in general, nothing about this, still, has me convinced of your point that it's reducing her base power, at all. It's an addition to what she had in Brawl, with the lift used for recovery specials, rather than the base jumps, and the overall power of physical attacks increased, rather than staying the same. If her attack strength was the same as before, despite adding a weapon, then that would be proof that they decreased her base power. But Sakurai made a point of saying that they upped her power, compared to Brawl.

Are heels a dumb idea? Yes. Is it an unfortunate bugbear from Other M that Sakurai appears to have tried his best to mitigate by at least making them space rocket shoes? Yes. Has Samus's apparently physical ability been reduced, with the boots needed to bring her up to what she was in Brawl? No.

If you still disagree on that last point, then I don't think we can continue, as neither of us can be convinced.

edited 22nd Apr '14 4:35:15 PM by Enlong

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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#42433: Apr 22nd 2014 at 4:34:14 PM

Out of curiosity, how does the existense of a male Wii Fit Trainer undermine female representation?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#42434: Apr 22nd 2014 at 4:40:23 PM

[up] It doesn't really add to the male or female roster. It's just like a Pokemon(except Pikachu), no gender overall. If female, there's also male. Both doesn't change the status quo, basically.

I don't think undermining is the right term. I think "doesn't really help" is a bit more accurate. It doesn't ultimately hurt either.

I think it's an exaggeration that Wii Fit Trainer having a male costume really undermines it. It doesn't. But it fails to help give more female representation overall. That make sense?

Shadow?
paperbritt Since: Apr, 2013
#42435: Apr 22nd 2014 at 4:42:36 PM

OK Ima just say this before this completely derails:

You can change the genders of the Wii Fit trainer and the Animal Crossing villager in their respective games. I believe you should be able to do both in Smash Bros too. You SHOULD have been able to do that with the Pokemon Trainer, and if the bring the Trainer concept back in future games they should do it.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#42436: Apr 22nd 2014 at 4:43:17 PM

Personally, I don't see what the point of all this debate is and think that we should all just relax. It's only a video game.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#42437: Apr 22nd 2014 at 4:43:50 PM

At the very least, it should be pointed out that the female Wii Fit Trainer is the default, and that seems to go for the animations as well- We've already seen some very odd looks from the male Trainer, and I expect it to eventually become nearly as much a thing as Falco's bread.

I sure said that!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#42438: Apr 22nd 2014 at 4:44:11 PM

Add Female Wii Fit Trainer to the Roster = 1+ female to the selection...Addition of the Male Wii Fit Trainer to an Alternative Costume = 1+ Male to selection by technicality(One slot being 2 genders) ... Nothing changed. Scale is still the same.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#42439: Apr 22nd 2014 at 4:46:31 PM

The animations do help. Being default female is a fair point. Much like Wario is directly attributed to Wario Ware despite having some notes of Wario Land too.

Pretty much a similar case. It's not as good as being only female, but eh.

As for PT, maybe Sakurai had no intentions of doing a genderswap character costume during Brawl? That'd be odd if Villager didn't allow a female costume too.

edited 22nd Apr '14 4:49:57 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#42440: Apr 22nd 2014 at 4:46:46 PM

Speaking of Falco's Mondegreen lines, Falco foresaw this becoming reality.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#42441: Apr 22nd 2014 at 5:01:58 PM

Nonono, that's a cake pizza. A pizza cake is a cake cleverly decorated to look like a pizza, not a quadruple bypass surgery.

I sure said that!
beorc Ridley and Ridley from hither and yon Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: I know
Ridley and Ridley
#42442: Apr 22nd 2014 at 6:29:34 PM

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I got the feeling from Wii Fit Trainer's reveal trailer that her voiced lines were actually lifted directly from Wii Fit. If that's the case, it would certainly make it simpler to add an opposite-gendered costume compared to Pokemon Trainer.

It doesn't seem like Villager makes noise at all, so getting a female costume seems more likely there as well.

edited 22nd Apr '14 6:30:02 PM by beorc

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#42443: Apr 22nd 2014 at 6:32:04 PM

Robin could be done by taking lines right from Awakening, I think, if we're talking about that.

I have a message from another time...
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#42444: Apr 22nd 2014 at 7:13:38 PM

If Pac's in the game, ya think they'd make his classic appearance his alt? Maybe even the one with the hat from Pac-Land?

Pulse The Fool from Yadayadaville Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Fool
#42445: Apr 22nd 2014 at 7:26:38 PM

I suppose, but I'd just as soon not have Pac-Man at all.

I sure said that!
Randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#42446: Apr 22nd 2014 at 7:37:55 PM

[up][up]There's not many options, there's his regular design, there's the "new" design, and there's the slightly different design for the 16-bit 2D Pac-man platformers...the only thing left is a hat.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Vgm3 This is the Monado's power! from Miami, Florida Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
This is the Monado's power!
#42447: Apr 22nd 2014 at 7:39:00 PM

If Pac's in, I suppose they'll use this as his default outfit and this as his alt.

Now's it's Shulk Time!
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#42448: Apr 22nd 2014 at 7:40:06 PM

I expect Ms. Pac-Man as his alt.

Randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#42449: Apr 22nd 2014 at 7:46:37 PM

Shouldn't that second image be his default?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#42450: Apr 22nd 2014 at 7:53:25 PM

Joanna Dark would be awesome for a playable character.

All Nintendo needs is Microsoft's permission to use her in Smash, which I think they'd be willing.


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