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Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#32901: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:31:56 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]I think that issue could be solved if they made it so characters can't grab off a character after down-throwing them, since that's what 90% of chaingrabs seem to end up being.

Ice Climbers are the obvious exception, but the Project M team seems to have fixed that issue so they're more balanced, so I don't see why the Smash team can't.

edited 15th Jan '14 6:32:22 PM by Nap1100

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#32902: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:32:40 PM

Better idea would be Sonia Belmont. She does wield Vampire Killer.

I have a message from another time...
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#32903: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:35:11 PM

Well, I said "to a degree". Being a female in Castlevania was what I was going off of.

But touche, that makes more sense. And I haven't played Castlevania(64) in over 10 years. My bad. >_<

Shadow?
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#32904: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:35:56 PM

No, your argument was "Toon Link being a clone is not his full potential because not having all the different stuff he could have had makes Vanilla Link not reach full potential!" and it's as ridiculous as it sounds!

Are you inside my head, Folt? Because clearly you are if you can dictate what my own intentions are.

Because wrong. If you read it that way, that's your fault.

They play different and will always play different thanks to their differing properties.

And if he wasn't a clone he'd be even more different.

If "not playing the same" is what you're basing your argument on, then it's shot to hell before it even started.

It was more like "not having the same piddly moveset with slightly different properties".

Also for fucks sake, you claim that this isn't about one being better than the other? Look at that last line and try to convince me otherwise.

Again, side-tangent.

And with that, I'm done with talking about clones.

Because you weren't gonna use a convincing argument.

edited 15th Jan '14 6:37:18 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
ScorpioRat from Houston, Texas Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#32905: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:35:59 PM

Toon Link needs to stop cribbing off regular Link and use some stuff from his own Toon Link games, because there's no reason for him having such a similar moveset other than...I really don't even know at this point. It's silly.

Regular Link can then get tweaked a bit to move a little quicker, and maybe change a move or recovery or something to reflect Skyward Sword and Zelda U a bit.

Seriously though, this argument is kind of exhausting now.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#32906: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:37:15 PM

Have you guys just been doing this for 1317 pages?

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#32907: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:39:14 PM

About 600 pages, actually. I believe that's around where the E3 stuff started cropping up?

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#32908: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:39:16 PM

No we bitched about Ridley being too big like 50 pages ago

Oh really when?
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#32909: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:40:13 PM

*every 50 pages

edited 15th Jan '14 6:40:21 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#32910: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:41:04 PM

@Nap: Um... What do you mean IC are the "obvious" exception? Like I said, I'm the kind of player that presses buttons to see cool stuff happen; I'm unfamiliar with tiers and advanced techniques and all that stuff.

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."
Grounder Main Character Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Main Character
#32911: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:41:43 PM

*every three pages

edited 15th Jan '14 6:42:31 PM by Grounder

Keybreak (Long Runner)
#32912: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:42:12 PM

Characters are not modeled to actual size.

Because they are all trophies.

Olimar is supposed to be like the size of a quarter.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#32913: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:43:32 PM

[up]But when he is scaled up he doesn't have weird proportions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Demonfly birdie fairy Since: Jul, 2012
birdie fairy
#32914: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:43:45 PM

[up][up][up][up]Ice Climbers' throws are far easier to exploit thanks to the whole "two of the same people at once" thing.

"Tell them to shut up and have some faith in me." - dead flashback guy
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#32915: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:45:03 PM

Ice Climber's chaingrabs usually involve back throws rather than down throws, since in Brawl the partner can simply grab the opponent just as they leave the lead's hand, and vice versa. In Melee it didn't even matter because they had Wobbling , which was basically a guaranteed KO if even one of them grabbed you and the other wasn't too far away.

edited 15th Jan '14 6:47:23 PM by Nap1100

Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#32916: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:47:07 PM

@Magcargo: They are fundamentally different either way. Your argument about making them different makes no sense because they are already different. No matter what, they are different and will always play different. They are still unique from each other even when they use the same moves, and if you can't understand that then there is no hope for you.

As for how long this argument has gone... I can't even remember. Which is bad.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#32917: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:49:39 PM

[up][up][up] and [up][up]: So the two little pricks are more nasty as far as chain-grabs go; gotcha.

[up]Honestly, his point has been "Why use the same moves as Link if he has his own stuff to fight with?" this entire time, which I find perfectly reasonable.

Anyway, he's in, and he has the same moves as Link with a few different properties; not much use in discussing it for another N pages.

edited 15th Jan '14 6:52:46 PM by Elbruno

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#32918: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:51:35 PM

Yeah, Chain Grabs are the most powerful part of Ice Climbers and why they're high tier in the first place.

Shadow?
ScorpioRat from Houston, Texas Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#32919: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:52:19 PM

The point Magcargo Man is trying to make is that Toon Link is still a move clone for no reason. They might play differently in a more subtle way, but if Toon Link is going to represent the Wind Waker-Spirit Tracks games, he might as well use some more visual things from the franchise other than the art style and hit boxes and speed and stuff.

edited 15th Jan '14 6:53:22 PM by ScorpioRat

MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#32920: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:52:52 PM

Your argument about making them different makes no sense because they are already different

Not different enough.

and if you can't understand that then there is no hope for you.

Defending clones over creative non-rehash characters? There is no hope for you.

[up][up][up] & [up] YES! Thank You! At least some people get it.

edited 15th Jan '14 6:53:51 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#32921: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:55:35 PM

[up][up] Technically, he's not even that, as Link has a couple attacks that Toon Link doesn't have.

[up] You can be creative all you want and still come up with a stinker.

edited 15th Jan '14 6:57:25 PM by Folt

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#32922: Jan 15th 2014 at 6:58:56 PM

A couple. A COUPLE.

Do you even realise how much of a petty difference that is? I have done a in-depth comparison between the two in gameplay recently. Toon Link only has 6 different moves from Link. Four of them are moves where Regular Link kicks. Toon Link doesn't kick because of his shorter legs. So if Toon Link had longer legs, those moves would have been clone moves as well. The other two are moves the same as Link but one gets an extra hit and the other has two less hits.

You can be creative all you want and still come up with a stinker.

"Don't be creative on the odd chance it could fail". Rightio...

edited 15th Jan '14 7:17:39 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Folt Warlock Necromancer from Hollow Bastion! >=D Since: Jun, 2010
Warlock Necromancer
#32923: Jan 15th 2014 at 7:02:12 PM

[up] And? That just strengthens my point in that he's technically not even a moveset clone.

Fantastic Supreme Überkaiser Emperor Folt of The Infinity and Beyond" ... "The First"!
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#32924: Jan 15th 2014 at 7:02:54 PM

oh god.

I have a message from another time...
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#32925: Jan 15th 2014 at 7:03:20 PM

You are being really Literal-Minded here. The majority of his moveset is Moveset Clone. The Majority.

edited 15th Jan '14 7:03:40 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM

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