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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#27026: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:34:52 PM

Items are by no means balanced.

That being said, they're very fun in a chaotic way. tongue

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#27027: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:36:33 PM

[up][up]The fact that it's a thing at all is the problem, not the fact that it's a rare occurrence. Any game that's competitive should have as little luck-based factors as possible if it actually wants to be taken seriously.

Granted, Brawl wasn't meant to be competitive, but I always felt that was a poor direction to go for in the first place.

edited 10th Nov '13 4:37:09 PM by Nap1100

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#27028: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:36:50 PM

You can always disable the worst offenders, like explosives, Hammers, containers and that bloody Fan!

I have a message from another time...
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#27029: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:37:36 PM

@Magcargo: Wow. That's a lot more often than I remember it happening to me.

EDIT - Nap: Why do people complain when a Fighter is non-competitive? Does every Fighting game really need to be tournament-friendly?

edited 10th Nov '13 4:38:58 PM by doctrainAUM

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#27030: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:38:37 PM

No item boosts recovery severely. And there are balanced items as well as Item Tourneys. Parasol can't be available because it's nothing but a broken recovery. In a game where killing is super hard. I can see why it was removed.(it's not just tournaments, it has an effect on single player too. It either makes you or the computer beyond powerful. And since you have a time limit, this can make you lose due to a simple case of Fake Difficulty)

Cloaking Device prevents you from taking damage, this makes it too defensive for Brawl's design. It's still arguablu broken in Melee, but Brawl's design puts its power Up To Eleven if not beyond.

Tripping is annoying, but a Bob-Omb to the face happens pretty often during Single Player as is. It's common enough to matter and to be a problem design-wise. That kind of luck shouldn't kill you at all when you're fighting for something besides pure casual matches.

[up][up] Except in Single Player, where it's a literal problem. VS Matches? Meh. Not a biggie. Sure, disable it during competitive moments. Keep it on if you want to in casuals.

edited 10th Nov '13 4:39:45 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#27031: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:40:23 PM

[up][up]Not so much that as purposely reducing the competitive aspect of the game. You can just focus on dialing up the fun factor than change the game to be competitive, but don't actively spite those that like to play the game at a tournament level.

doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#27032: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:42:34 PM

Fights could drag on a tad in Brawl, but they were over in like five seconds in Melee. Neither is really preferable to the other. I do note that I found Brawl's design to encourage off-stage edgeguarding. In Brawl, I did it all the time, since it wasn't that difficult to get back on stage. In Melee, I would most likely commit suicide if I tried it, so I quickly learned to not take that risk and just wait until the other guy got on stage.

[up]You think they were actively spiting people? Rather than trying to make it more accessible?

edited 10th Nov '13 4:44:09 PM by doctrainAUM

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#27033: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:42:43 PM

Wow. That's a lot more often than I remember it happening to me.

Was that genuine or sarcastic?

You can just focus on dialing up the fun factor than change the game to be competitive

Since when are having fun and being competitive mutually exclusive?

[down]Gah! Ninja'd!

edited 10th Nov '13 4:44:06 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
DragonGeyser The Chew Toy of Gaming from a computer, DUH. Since: Dec, 2010
The Chew Toy of Gaming
#27034: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:43:28 PM

Too bad people seem to think that there's a one-axis spectrum of fun to competitive.

Lampshade Hanging: It's a lifestyle.
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#27035: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:44:10 PM

[up][up][up]You could always just wavedash backward and hang on to the ledge that way.

[up][up]Misinterpreted what I said. I meant they don't have to focus on the competitive aspect of the game too much, but don't purposely add mechanics that discourage it.

edited 10th Nov '13 4:45:51 PM by Nap1100

doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#27036: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:45:43 PM

@Magcargo: That was genuine. This is the first I've ever even heard of it happening. And I've unlocked G&W in Melee, so I've played through Classic mode a lot.

[up]That assumes that I can wavedash well at all (still can't get that timing down). You're comparing something that takes months of practice versus Brawl's off-stage edgeguarding, which does not take months of practice to use at all.

edited 10th Nov '13 4:48:18 PM by doctrainAUM

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#27037: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:46:02 PM

You could always just wavedash backward and hang on to the ledge that way.

Problem spotted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#27038: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:46:44 PM

[up]How so? It's a mechanic in Melee, it can be used.

DragonGeyser The Chew Toy of Gaming from a computer, DUH. Since: Dec, 2010
The Chew Toy of Gaming
#27039: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:47:06 PM

And now, Part 9999 of the Great Smash Argument.

Lampshade Hanging: It's a lifestyle.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#27040: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:47:39 PM

@doctrain: That's why the Parasol is good for Melee, since it makes recoveries better in a game where it's easy to kill, and terrible for Brawl because kills are extremely hard.

Removing it was reasonable. Cloaking Device didn't much matter in Melee at times. It was very easy to die. Racking up damage in Brawl outside of Meta Knight can be ridiculous sometimes. Not able to do any damage? You might as well be invincible, because you just ain't dying.

[up][up] Agreed. It wasn't balanced, but it wasn't a real problem either. Mind you, the only issue was that some characters couldn't be viable with it, further unbalancing the tiers. Otherwise, it wasn't a big deal or super hard to pull off.

edited 10th Nov '13 4:48:55 PM by Irene

Shadow?
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#27041: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:48:14 PM

[up][up][up]Except considering it wasn't even intentional, it shouldn't have to be used to do stuff. The fact that everyone relies on it to do stuff is just... ugh...

It's like the Stealth Rock/Weather Teams of Competitive Pokemon.

edited 10th Nov '13 4:48:22 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#27042: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:50:38 PM

Is this really what it's going to turn into?

There are a ton of things that are unintentional in design for games. Combos in Street Fighter II. Juggling in what would eventually become Devil May Cry. Wall Jumping in Super Mario Bros. Just because it's a glitch and it can be used for things other than it was intended doesn't inherently make it a bad thing. If it provides more options to the metagame, hey, I'm all for it.

edited 10th Nov '13 4:50:55 PM by Nap1100

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#27043: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:51:10 PM

...You do realize that it was intentionally left in, right?

It was meant to be used in Melee overall. That's why the left it in. That's why they took it out of Brawl, to make the game different in some way.

Shadow?
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#27044: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:51:39 PM

it wasn't a big deal or super hard to pull off

Irene, maybe I'm just agitated right now, but that sounded like you saying, "Well, I didn't have any trouble with it, so I can't see how anybody ever would".

And I hated the Cloaking thing in Melee. Made some of the Events a bit harder (which is saying a lot).

EDIT: Oh! I know this part[lol] People argue over the semantics of the words "intentional", "exploit", "glitch", and the terms "left in", "put in", "meant to be used", "easter egg", and other things.

edited 10th Nov '13 4:54:21 PM by doctrainAUM

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#27045: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:51:47 PM

Combos in Street Fighter II. Wall Jumping in Super Mario Bros

Except they made them official real moves in later games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#27046: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:53:39 PM

Yes, but at least you could still juggle or combo enough to make the Cloaking Device irrelevant. It's not nearly as bad to face as it could be in Brawl.

And yes, it's not seriously that hard to do at all. And no, many will tell you it's not super hard to pull off as well.

There's a reason it's common to see, because it's not a super challenging technique to use. The list of people who have trouble with it staggeringly small.

[up] Wavedashing is an official Melee technique. The developers deemed it so the second the decided to keep it in instead of removing it. Try again. They knew about it. That means they wanted it officially left in. This makes it official by developer standard from the start.

edited 10th Nov '13 4:54:57 PM by Irene

Shadow?
DragonGeyser The Chew Toy of Gaming from a computer, DUH. Since: Dec, 2010
The Chew Toy of Gaming
#27047: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:54:04 PM

@Magcargo: Because they were near-universally accepted by players. Wavedashing is Love It or Hate It territory.

And that's all I'm going to say on this matter. Hopefully.

edited 10th Nov '13 4:54:13 PM by DragonGeyser

Lampshade Hanging: It's a lifestyle.
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#27048: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:54:36 PM

And? How is that supposed to prove anything? If anything it shows that Not the Intended Use is a good thing because developers can gain ideas from the glitch. Wavedashing would've been no different if Brawl hadn't removed it in favor of the multiple air dodges.

And I preferred Melee's air dodge because Brawl's were way too lenient. It wasn't that easy to punish if you just threw a bunch out randomly as opposed to Melee where it's more of a risk/reward scenario.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#27049: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:55:18 PM

Was there some interview question mentioning Wavedashing? I don' twant to say anything wihout having all hte facts in hand. That's just asking for it.

I have a message from another time...
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#27050: Nov 10th 2013 at 4:57:10 PM

Yes. It was in Nintendo Power where they specifically said they kept it in after discovering it.

While they didn't intentionally create it, they did intentionally keep it in to keep the game as competitive as possible.(Melee was intentionally designed to be the most tourney viable)

Shadow?

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