I meant a Fireball, actually. But a line of fire could work too.
And that sounds perfect to me. Just make sure it's hard to time as well, although the fact it has a better hitbox than a thin bat might be another issue. Maybe it only works on certain ones? I'm thinking bigger projectiles like missiles or fireballs, not nothing like a laser.
Shadow?ROB's probably one of my favorite characters to use in Brawl. I'll be disappointed if he doesn't return, but I won't be surprised or make a huge fuss about it, either.
Little Link, on the other hand, will continue to get all of my 'He took *insert character here*'s spot' hate, especially if it means that certain big name characters don't show up.
Or, alternately, unless the statement is majorly divorced from the truth, you could just not make such a huge fuss about it. You want to point out that there are people who actually do like it, especially if you're one of them, fine. But it seems like an unnecessary argument to try to say 'you should never say that "nobody likes thing 'x'!" where you just come off as a grammar dictator or what have you.
Because, realistically speaking, unless I'm missing something the number of people who like the virtual boy is so small that it might as well be nobody.
Technically and 100% accurately speaking, sure, there are people who like it in some capacity.
Generally, practically, and comparatively speaking, that number of people is insignificant and is such a low number that it hardly seems worth it to make it necessary to always stick the qualifier in front.
Compare:
"Nobody likes Star Wars/the USA/Ronald Reagan/Bill Clinton/thing that actually has a large following."
"Actually, there are a lot of people who like that thing."
to
"Nobody likes Sonic the Hedgehog 2006/The Virtual Boy/Metroid: Other M/thing that almost nobody actually likes"
"Well, there's actually a few people that like that thing."
The first is worth raising a fuss about, the second not so much.
edited 10th Nov '13 9:49:41 AM by TheSpaceJawa
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It would have a bit of startup lag, yeah. And that's what you meant? Derp, sorry.
Gee, there's a lot of options for a fire-breathing plant...
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Both deserve equal fuss. Can't see a difference here. They're all stupid statements to make entirely.
Also, Toon Link deserved the spot anyway. He didn't stop anyone from getting in(if anything, it was Sonic who did), as well as a key protagonist that is separate from Adult Link.
Mario isn't a consistent series with its attack moves.
No, no they do not deserve equal fuss. One is a major fallacy. The other is a minor technicality.
Why does Mini Link deserve his spot? He's a waste of a spot who brings nothing to the game. Sonic is an entirely unique character with an entirely unique move set. He brings about as much new stuff to the game as a character can.
Mini Link, on the other hand, is as close to being an identical clone as you can get. At least the likes of Ganondorf and Luigi and Falco are using the clone technique to add additional unique characters to the roster.
Mini Link, however, is as much a different protagonist from the adult link as Twilight Princess Link or Link to the Past Link or Oracle of Time Link would be. They're all technically different characters who are separate from each other, but at the same time they are all, in effect, the exact same guy. There's no reason to have two Links present at all.
edited 10th Nov '13 10:11:37 AM by TheSpaceJawa
Hey, haven't we already done the Toon Link argument already?
I say he deserves his spot. It's weird- I'm normally against clones (Falco, for example), but Toon Link (like Ganondorf) feels different enough in my eyes that he doesn't warrant the "CLONES SUX" label.
And in a weird meta way it makes sense- Link being a Legacy Character, it's a weird kind of way to represent the multiple links.
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Nope, equal fuss. Your fallacy is that you're pretending that one false generalizing statement is more acceptable than another. It's not. They're both entirely unacceptable to make since it's just lying through your teeth.
Child Link is damn important to the series, just as much as Adult Link is. They represent different games. Yes, he's very important and this was established ages ago. The main reason he added Young Link is that he considers that the true character who was the first Link, not the adult iteration. The only reason the adult one deserves to be in is because he was part of the original 12. He's no more important than Child Link and never will be. The Toon games are heavily different from the Adult Link games too. Not only are they entirely different people with only the same name, they're not even related by blood alone. The only reason they have the same moves is because they actually do in canon. Toon Link(as in his design) can use the Downthrust too.(it's only the Upthrust he can't) Oh, also, if you didn't know, the main items used by the overall character of Link(this applies to almost every game) is the Bombs, Bow, and Boomerang. The Spin Attack is obviously his sword(sometimes the Master Sword) are signature stuff as well.
That's the main reason why Toon Link using new items makes no sense. It's not his signature stuff, which is what B moves are supposed to be based around.(only those who have zero moves to draw from in their original series get odd ones, or in Ganondorf's case, ones that fit only his ideal persona at best). A Link not using his signature five moves/items wouldn't work for Smash. It doesn't matter if Toon Link is a clone here, him using other B moves is just outright stupid and an insult to the character. The only B move that needs a change is his Final Smash, since that was made up and doesn't need to be the same for any reason. This equally applies to Young Link.
Honestly, Ganondorf is the only guy who deserves to be un-cloned, because he doesn't use most of his signature moves.(his Flame Choke and Beast Ganon are kind of it. Flame Choke isn't directly a move he uses, but he does a choke hold and slams someone into the ground in WW. This is a close version of the move, which, notably, isn't used by his WW version in Smash. So slightly changing how it works... makes sense to me.) However, Ganondorf himself is known for being very powerful and having immense magic. His entire moveset in Smash still fits him as is. He has the Triforce of Power. Using power attacks with magic behind them? Don't see how it doesn't fit him at all.(they aren't canon moves, but they still make logical sense)
edited 10th Nov '13 10:26:55 AM by Irene
Shadow?That's silly, you play as Old Link for most of the game, through way more dungeons.
And I'd say Ganondorf using physical attacks isn't that out of character, in his very first appearance he used a dive punch.
edited 10th Nov '13 10:32:35 AM by Moth13
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I wouldn't mind him being uncloned, but either way Ganondorf needs to keep his pragmatically brutal fighting style.
I know I made a sword counterpart to Flame Choke where he (non-graphically) impales people on his sword and then (charging the sword with dark energy) blasts them off of it. Different, but still pretty Ganon-y. Though not as much as Flame Choke.
Now that I think about it, he could just hold his sword in one hand and choke people with the other.
But Link was a kid in A Link to the Past and (arguably) the original Legend of Zelda.
edited 10th Nov '13 10:32:59 AM by NesClassic
🏳️⚧️she/her | Vio Rhyse Alberia"Young Link (Classic Mode, Trophy #287)
Link's younger incarnation is often considered to be the true Link: he was a young boy in the very first Legend of Zelda game, and he has appeared as a youth in most of the subsequent games. Since his debut on the original NES in 1987, Link's appearance has changed over and over again, each time adding to the mystique of his incomparable story."
I'd say that Sakurai choosing this Trophy description... kind of does matter. Either way, Child and Adult Link are no less important.
But as for B moves, outside of Flame Choke(and his Final Smash), they aren't canon from the games for Ganondorf. They do make sense for his character, though. I don't think that factor actually existed when he was made a clone, though. Just a funny coincidence. The guy who is all about power and magic using a Magic-powered move? Yeah, seems logical. There seems to be an indication that was entirely irrelevant according to Sakurai's reasons, which were "he has a similar physical build to Falcon, so why not?" or we don't know if that has any bearing, at least.
@Nes Classic: His sword being used would be nice. I do think that him being entirely un-cloned isn't ideal, though. But that's because I think every character should still play somewhat similar to their first Smash appearance overall. That, and I like Ganondorf's overall cloned moveset. It was pretty well created.
edited 10th Nov '13 10:42:02 AM by Irene
Shadow?Well, back in Melee Flame Choke didn't exist. Instead we had Gerudo Dragon, a cut+paste of Raptor Boost. I'm inclined to believe Flame Choke (while not explicitly used by Ganondorf... on screen, a lot happens in 7 years) was directly based off of Ganondorf's personality.
And yeah, it was pretty well created. Even if it's mostly Captain Falcon- Slow Edition, the fighting style fits both of them well.
edited 10th Nov '13 10:44:49 AM by NesClassic
🏳️⚧️she/her | Vio Rhyse AlberiaIt fits him entirely. The fact that it's the closest to one of his moves from the games helps. Of course, that's probably just a coincidence anyway. I just like that it's similar as is.
Indeed. I think that's one of the best parts about Ganondorf. Being a clone means little; Unlike with some others, it fits him just right. Falco, well, let's be honest, even in Brawl, he still seems a bit too similar. Wolf not being a clone helped, though.(two moves in common do not make a clone, after all) There were rumors that Wolf wasn't in Melee because he shouldn't be a clone. Same applied for Wario, who would've been a Mario remake. I think they chose the clones in Melee perfectly. Dr. Mario being one of Mario? Well, his Mega Vitamins are just not like the Fireballs overall, so that works. Pichu is kind of obvious why. Roy got in for an advertisement and from a game not released yet, so I doubt much could be made for him that's original anyway. Young Link has the same signature moves as Adult Link did overall in the games, so there was no reason to be different.
edited 10th Nov '13 10:49:22 AM by Irene
Shadow?![]()
I still would much rather Ganondorf actually fight like Ganondorf for the most part- I'm especially missing his magic sphere.
I think part of it is that Toon Link is basically Link-but-much-better, so people just wonder- Why not just make Link better?
Mini-Link refers to both Young Link and Toon Link, since they fill the same niche.
edited 10th Nov '13 10:49:19 AM by Pulse
I sure said that!![]()
My issue with him is that he's too similar to Link when they could have made him far more different if they gave him the Majora's Mask transformations.
edit: I don't usually like to say "X took Y's spot!" but in this case I think Toon Link did legitimately take Masked Link's spot since I doubt Sakurai would have three different Links in one game.
edited 10th Nov '13 10:51:18 AM by Kostya
Ganondorf does fight like he should for the most part. He just needs a few new B moves. Dead Man's Volley alone would fix him. He doesn't even need new A moves. They fit what he does, slow but powerful attacks. He's not terribly agile in 2/3 of his appearances either. Giving him a sword is hard to say. Could they make his moveset even that original with it? Or will he comes off as Ike 2.0(or essentially just a mishmash of the somewhat slower swordsman of the Smash series) I think the only way to give him a good sword moveset is if they went with the WW version, but eh.
Actually, Sakurai already admitted that both Links would have the same B moves as a rule. Masked Link wasn't ever probable to come in regardless, so I really doubt that to be the case. Masked Link may not have ever been on his mind, or even had a ghost of a chance. Only Young Link did he replace for sure.
edited 10th Nov '13 10:53:29 AM by Irene
Shadow?

Breathing fire could work, but Bowser and Charizard both already do that. Or do you mean a straight-line fireball like Venus Firetraps usually do?
Oh, and since his main weapon is a tennis racket, the side smash could reflect projectiles, like Ness and Lucas.
edited 10th Nov '13 9:43:11 AM by NesClassic
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