Options are only good is balanced. Wavedashing was broken as everliving hell. So no, not ultimately positive in the end.
Without wavedashing, it means more characters are viable in the meta.
Auto-Cancel only removed lag from some moves, and not even on many characters who actually needed it to be viable. It was terrible in practice. L-Cancelling affected everyone without nerfing anyone at the same time. Meaning it was still definitely a better thing.
By only being usable by already fast characters, it severely make some way better than others. That's huge unbalance.
edited 23rd Oct '13 7:07:06 PM by Irene
Shadow?Not everyone's wavedash is the same. Luigi, Mewtwo, and the Ice Climbers actually have better wavedashes than characters like Fox and Falco. Does that immediately make them top tier?
Again, not saying it's perfect, but with tweaking it can make for a fun gameplay mechanic that actually enhances the metagame.
edited 23rd Oct '13 7:10:20 PM by Nap1100
Color me stupid, but I don't see how that's superior to either just not having it (since its existence would affect characters across the board), or tweaking the lag time on the characters that supposedly need it. If Ganondorf needs some trick to be viable, doesn't that mean there's some fundamental problem with Gandondorf's timing? Why does L-Cancelling change that since it affects all characters and thus the advantage is moot if both players do it? I honestly don't get it.
I'm pretty sure the stare has less to do with Mega Man having emotions or not and more to do with him mimicking his NES sprite.
edited 23rd Oct '13 7:10:55 PM by Customer
Except that is actually wrong, Nap.
It does not benefit Bowser nearly as much as Fox. A lot of slow characters cannot use it effectively. Here's a nice exert about Bowser's wavedash; "His moves are also very sluggish, and his approach is among the worst in the game, with laggy aerials, poor jumping ability (leading to an awful SHFFL), a short wavedash, poor projectile, and slow, predictable recovery. Bowser is among few characters to lack any positive matchups, and only two, against Yoshi and Pichu, are considered even." Now let's look at Fox's; "Fox, true to being on the top of the tier list, is an extremely efficient fighter, with fast attacks, unparalleled comboing and damaging ability, and numerous options to approach the opponent." Fox can approach with it as well. Bowser can't use it for approaching.
Another is that Fox and Falco can use them heavily with the shines, while others couldn't do anywhere near as good combos, if any at all.
Basically, it did not affect everyone equally in the game, and not everybody really got better because of it. So no, it didn't really improve the meta for everyone. It may have made the meta bigger, but it did not balance the game better at all.
edited 23rd Oct '13 7:14:14 PM by Irene
Shadow?@Irene: You have given no reasons for why cutting landlag in half would be bad, aside from "it's easier, therefore it is worse". You mentioned Marth's side-B here. It was fun in Brawl, being able to combo enemies so easily. In Melee, I could only get two weak strikes to start with, and I still can't get it down pat. And yet, you think the move is only worthwhile if someone spends weeks practicing on how to perform it. But I say that, while there are definitely some things players should work for, for something minor like this, they should have fun right away, not after a couple weeks.
This talk on how making it easy to perform simple moves "cheapens" a game - that is elitist. It comes from the belief that being good at a game should take tons of practice. While that is generally true, I say fans should be able to do the basics of gameplay without much trouble, and the game should not operate on the assumption that they know advanced techniques. Maybe some "hardcore, niche titles, but SSB is meant for everybody.
L-canceling adds an unnecessary gap in skill without offering strategy in return - how could it, if it's never a good idea to not use it? That is why it's best for landlag to be cut in half.
"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
The Chew Toy of Gaming
I think this situation illustrates why balancing Smash (hell, any fighter) is nigh impossible; nobody can agree on how to do it.
Lampshade Hanging: It's a lifestyle.Fun is subjective. Keep in mind that I had more trouble with it in Melee than most, but I found it rewarding. I disagree with it being a good thing in Brawl, though. I would like them to make it a little easier than Melee's, but not essentially auto-combo like in Brawl, where it requires no effort to do it. Some skill, but it doesn't need to require perfect timing.
And no, that is false about L-Cancelling. It does not require much skill at all to do it even half-way decently. There is barely a gap in skill required to use it at all. So that is not applicable here. Wavedashing requires a huge amount of skill in comparison. Even Dancing Blade requires a huge ton of skill to perform in Melee compared to Brawl. L-Cancelling does not create any really gap, it's a very easy technique to learn and even use a fair amount of the time. It doesn't require much to perfect either, which is a small gap at best. The technique is not very hard to use at all. And never was. And unless they severely make the timing beyond perfect, probably never will. Since I don't see why they would make it hard to do in the first place.
Shadow?Not once did I say it was hard to do (though I still have problems getting it down right). But, on principle, I feel that a technique should not be the optimal choice 100% of the time. If that happens, it should be automatic. A skillgap, no matter how small, is bad in cases like these.
I can't understand how requiring no effort to do (like the vast majority of specials) is a bad thing. All it does for the Dancing Blade is over-complicate things and prevent first-timers from using it well.
"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"A strong combo requiring zero effort does not translate to being made well to me. I feel it should require a bit of work to do so. It also gives players a reason to practice. I wouldn't actually mind if you could set the game to Auto-Combo or Manual, though. It's a good way to please both types of players. It's also why I think making it easier to do than in Melee but not nearly as auto-combo in Brawl, so it requires just a bit of practice, is not a bad thing.
Again, L-Cancelling is fine. That is not a notable skill gap at all. It doesn't hyper improve your game, it just slightly makes it better. Auto-Cancel is anti-fun to me. I do not like games that hold your hand or do everything for you. I like some requirement of actual skill, otherwise I can't enjoy the game at all. Brawl still requires skill to win, at least, but is too easy in most cases.(this is part of why I don't like it nearly as much as 64 or Melee, but eh)
edited 23rd Oct '13 8:14:59 PM by Irene
Shadow?If L-canceling doesn't super- improve your game, then its disappearance in Brawl should be perfectly fine.
On Brawl being too easy: have you played the higher difficulties? I hate how in Melee many of the Events were nearly impossible to beat. There are still a few I need to do. After I completed some, such as the one to get Ganondorf, I didn't feel satisfied at all. I felt frustrated even afterwards, emotionally worn-out, and with a migraine after shouting four-letter words at the top of my lungs. That wouldn't have happened if there were multiple difficulties.
When I see "holds your hand", I read it as " isn't obtuse and actually bothers to tell you what you're supposed to do, while offering no fake difficulty". That tells a lot about my gaming philosophy.
"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"No, holds my hand means doing something for me instead of letting it do myself. I hate that type of gaming. Tutorials are fine as are having moves get more difficult as you buff them up, so the timing is increased.(a great example of this is the first Mario & Luigi game, where you can go to higher versions of the Bros. Attacks, which are the same, but they're harder to pull off. I'm okay with this)
And having a small move with a small skill gap that isn't too ridiculous is a good thing overall. It allows varied gameplay, something auto-cancel doesn't. Also, the fact auto-cancel doesn't affect as many moves as L-Cancelling makes it instantly crap to me. If they didn't bother to let it work with almost every move(there's barely any exceptions in Melee, respectively, but that's because they have extremely specific ending animations and lags that can't be reduced.
Not at all. It should not be fine, because it's lowering reasonable options with usable techniques. I do not like dumbing down the game like the removal did. Especially when it didn't even affect everyone as equally as if L-Cancelling currently existed. If characters like Ganondorf auto-cancelled all the moves he would if I used L-Cancelling, it might've not been that bad. But it isn't. Instead of a small skill gap, it just further unbalanced the game my making characters crappier for no reason whatsoever.
Brawl is technically more difficult in some areas. Single Player has some notoriously hard parts, and even Cruel Brawl is a bit worse.(a bit being the key term) The events were sometimes harder, though. Classic and All-Star gave me way more trouble(tedious is another story, mind you) than Melee's ever did. It didn't help that All-Star has some extremely poorly balanced fights. Going from fighting 1 guy to 6? Oh, come on! Fake Difficulty is strong with this game. But I've gone over that before. The techniques are easier than before, but the computers gained severe intelligence, to the point that a Level 1 actually isn't trash anymore. After a while, like say, a Stock 99 match, they'll get the better of you.(this is probably due to the fact they gain up on you instead of going after other computers, which doesn't help the situation at all. But again, Fake Difficulty)
edited 23rd Oct '13 8:33:56 PM by Irene
Shadow?Why are you talking about auto-cancel? I'm talking about, hypothetically, the landlag from all aerial attacks being half as long as they were in Brawl. I'm not saying Brawl is better simply for not having L-canceling (I still can't decide which game is better). I'm saying that if you're gonna have short lag, it should be every time you use it. This is something Brawl should have done.
Your addressing my main problem: since L-canceling is optimal all the time - as in, there's never a point where you'd want to not do it- it adds no real options or strategies. It's like if an RPG gave you the "option" between a sword that does +20 damage and a sword that does +10 with no additional benefits. There is no choice.
Edit: As for one-player, I found Classic to be a bit easier, All-star to be a bit tougher, and Event to be much, much harder. Nowhere near the scream in frustration, bang the controllers, almost give up hope difficulty of Melee. I actually managed to beat it, for one, despite spending far less time on it.
edited 23rd Oct '13 8:42:49 PM by doctrainAUM
"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"L-Cancel doesn't make enough of a change to make it outright necessary to use. Sure, it's optimal, but so is getting every Action Command right in an appropriate video game. You don't need them to win, but they're helpful.
Your idea is auto-cancel, just done without cherry picking severely. As I said, I disapprove of it due to not liking auto-stuff. And the games did get better due to using L-Cancel anyway. It means players could step up their game a little. 64 is more noticeable since it's slow. Melee was not slow at all, so L-Cancelling was a decent technique but didn't do any major upsets in games, meaning it wasn't a necessary use at all times.
To me, Classic and All-Star were hyper difficult and tedious, and not fun at all(the removal of all the fun mini-games with non unique Target Tests made them not even worth playing through at that point. I don't want to do the same damn thing over and over. The mini-games are what made 64's 1Player Mode so much fun and different. Brawl's Classic was long and there wasn't enough variety in the matches. Most of the time the first match will be VS Giant Yoshi or VS Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong. I almost will never get any combo besides that. While 64 did have this issue, it was the first installment and is forgivable, especially with those kickass mini-games. Melee had the best Classic, having no crappy mini-games ultimately, a strong variety of matches, and wasn't TOO DAMN LONG). Also, the computers weren't filled with Fake Difficulty anyway. All-Star, as I said, was not very well-designed in Brawl. When even Easy Mode gives me a super hard time to win without dying once, there's an issue. Compare Easy Mode in Melee, where I can swamp them with no difficulty(besides a wandering Bob-omb or Star at worst) most of the time. Yeah, they did make the modes a lot more difficult overall with the increasing A.I. and such.
Events weren't very difficult to me, and didn't feel tedious or long, so they were pretty neat. I like the new Showdown one. Giga Bowser with the other two was a pain. Giant Mario, Snake, and Sonic? A good challenge, but only Snake was actually really powerful. The other two were mid and low tier in general(and this isn't too hard to see even outside of competitive play. Sonic is a very good character. Snake has some ridiculous abilities putting him higher. Mario is actually weaker than in the previous two games. He's not true trash, but isn't very good. We're not talking Ganondorf, Zelda, or Link levels of bad)
edited 23rd Oct '13 8:51:19 PM by Irene
Shadow?Doc: "If something is always optimal, it should be automatic. Besides, I like it when games are easy to perform well in."
Irene: "Players should work to achieve optimal effects, or else the game is dumbed down. Besides, I hate automatic stuff."
And so on, for a dozen or so posts.
"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"Thank you for describing its genre accurately. Fighting/Party is actually one of my favorite parts about this series. It caters to both.(just shouldn't go too far in either direction, respectively. I'd say 64 did that one best. It wasn't way too casual or too competitive, and had reasonable techniques. It also didn't have any huge skill gap abilities either. Moves or otherwise)
Also, I wonder what the Tutorial Video will be like this time. It was Mario VS Luigi in 64. Mario and Bowser in Melee. I think Brawl had Mario and Bowser too, but it's been a while. I'd like them to change that up a little. Like Mario VS Sonic instead.
edited 23rd Oct '13 9:08:45 PM by Irene
Shadow?Also, you guys seem to be forgetting to get the perspective of someone who cannot wrap his head around what wavedashing and L-cancelling even are nor how to do them or how they work, no matter how hard he tries.
(And please, don't even try to explain them to me, because I honestly couldn't care less.)
Insert witty 'n clever quip here.

And obviously, auto cancel-... reduced lag. Reduced lag obviously cannot be improved upon.
Also, how is it giving the player more options, if not doing it is always the wrong decision?
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