TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Super Smash Bros.

Go To

Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#26251: Oct 23rd 2013 at 5:41:04 PM

They could do his Marvel Vs Capcom 1 super. The one where he and Rush pair up and become huge and shoot stuff. Don't remember the name of that one.

edited 23rd Oct '13 5:41:16 PM by Nap1100

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26252: Oct 23rd 2013 at 5:41:57 PM

I like his Hyper Mega Man from Marvel VS Capcom. Since made up transformations/Final Smashes are already normal in the game, it's fitting. He also has a hyper arsenal in gameplay, so I find it fits well. Rush Adapter is a good choice too.

[up] Reverse Shiek'd. Correct name is on this message.

edited 23rd Oct '13 5:42:29 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26253: Oct 23rd 2013 at 5:43:28 PM

Mega Man's Final Smash should be Lead Bubble.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
NesClassic Meh-meh!? from Flyover Country Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: In another castle
Meh-meh!?
#26254: Oct 23rd 2013 at 5:47:47 PM

Power Stone.

Water Balloon.

Oil Slider.

🏳️‍⚧️she/her | Vio Rhyse Alberia
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#26255: Oct 23rd 2013 at 5:49:03 PM

Okay, now I feel comfortable ranting since we're not arguing now.

I love Melee and I love Project M so much, but one thing I never understood was why people insist on keeping l-canceling as a thing. All it really does is just make things like SHFFL-ing harder to do and require more inputs. Couldn't the same effect be achieved by just reducing landing lag overall? That would allow players to focus on what's actually going on in the match proper like most top players do rather than worry about getting frame perfect timing on something that feels really arbitrary.

okay I'm mainly ranting about this because shffling is so stupidly hard for me to do but I still never understood why it needs to be a thing

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26256: Oct 23rd 2013 at 5:52:24 PM

I hate not having the ability to do it. The version in Brawl was never effective enough to me to be worth having. It's also a fairly easy technique, to the point that it doesn't separate the competitive from the casual. It's perfect for those inbetween people like me.

Shadow?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26257: Oct 23rd 2013 at 5:52:35 PM

That's sorta how I feel about things like wavedashing. They feel like they're just there to create more distractions and widen the skill gap by requiring more inputs for actions that'd be just fine if they didn't exist or were automatic.

There should be a skill gap, yeah, but not over arbitrary frame-perfect timing things like that.

My philosophy regarding exploits is that it's fine to use it if it's presently there, but it should be patched out or dropped by next installment (Or in the case of, say, Project M, not re-implemented). Demanding it be kept is pointless.

edited 23rd Oct '13 5:53:12 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#26258: Oct 23rd 2013 at 5:57:21 PM

See, I feel wavedashing is different because it actually provides an interesting concept to a match because it gives players more variety in what they can do mobility-wise. You would never see players be able to, say, hop away from a successful shield (shield, jump-cancel, wavedash away) to create spacing without that glitch, or for instance, confuse your opponent about which way you intend to actually go.

I feel that wavedashing is actually a good glitch, and just feel it should be made a little bit easier to do for players that have a hard time performing it so they have the option to go against competitive players.

Also remember that wavedashing does have a single, but notable, disadvantage: 10 frames of landing lag. That's easy to punish should you see the move coming. If they need to, they could balance it more by increasing the landing lag on wavedashing or something.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26259: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:00:59 PM

I see your point, though I'm still not so crazy about wavedashing as a whole.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26260: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:06:02 PM

Wavedashing was overused to the point of causing severe trouble, even if it was left in on purpose.

You see, I find that bad for the game because it separates the players too much. L-Cancelling does not do so.

So I was okay with Wavedashing leaving(it also does even help the slower characters, making it pointless, where L-Cancelling does at least). So it's easy to see which one I find better for the game. L-Cancelling is fine. Wavedashing is too hard for many players that really doesn't make the game naturally better.

Shadow?
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26261: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:13:21 PM

A question: Is there ever a situation in which you would benefit from not L Canceling?

I have a message from another time...
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#26262: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:15:43 PM

6 frames is a pretty tight window to work with, especially considering everything else you had to worry about.

Again, I ask, what exactly did l-canceling do for the metagame besides increase the pace of the match, something that can easily be done by just reducing landing lag? Wavedashing was advanced too, but at least it had multiple applications that increased the variety of the metagame that wouldn't be attainable otherwise.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26263: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:16:33 PM

I'm pretty sure there isn't.

If there's no reason NOT to use a technique, it requires difficult timing, and the gameplay could run the same if it were either automatic or removed, then it's a superfluous feature and should either be automated or just removed.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#26264: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:32:14 PM

It's like when Sirlin criticized Street Fighter IV's extended grabs (or maybe Kara throws): since it's always the optimal choice, the developers should have not included it or just made the grabs longer. The same deal is with L-cancelling.

Wavedashing isn't always the best choice, so it's a better idea. It helps give approach options, but I feel like characters should have been given better ground movement, in that case. It's really hard to learn, though. I've practicing it on again, off again for months, but I can't consistently pull it off. Besides, the endlag is so long I can't perform attacks and it's far slower than dashing for everyone except Luigi. People on Smashboards said zoning is harder to learn - but you can learn zoning, while wavedashing requires timing you may be outright unable to perform.

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26265: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:36:09 PM

Yeah, I feel that the characters should just have better ground movement rather than have wavedashing.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#26266: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:36:52 PM

See, that's my position on wavedashing. I feel it's a good way to increase options for mobility while not rendering other options obsolete; it just needs to be tweaked for balance and made easier so people who can't do it currently can.

Maybe create a buffer window that allows people to begin a wavedash or act out of it with less strict timing.

edited 23rd Oct '13 6:37:27 PM by Nap1100

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26267: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:38:57 PM

...L-Cancelling doesn't even exist in Brawl. A lot of characters have far more ending lag than others. So they didn't make it better, they nerfed characters with its removal while not giving an equivalent.

The Auto-Cancel only applies to specific moves, meaning any move that doesn't have it can't be cancelled either way. Here's the kicker; Ganondorf is affected like that. Meaning that unless they magically put the auto-cancel on every character's moves that could reasonably be L-Cancelled in the first place, they become heavily nerfed. Yes, one of the reasons Ganondorf sucks so much in Brawl is that you can't L-Cancel. This is all the more reason I want it back. It's an unnecessary nerf to characters and did not make the game better by being gone, and the Auto-Cancel did not affect all the same moves that the L-Cancelling would. It was just pick and choose, which was actually a really horrible thing.

Shadow?
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26268: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:40:47 PM

Then they should put in a more wide-spread and equalized auto-canceling, rather than bring back manual canceling.

edited 23rd Oct '13 6:41:05 PM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#26269: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:41:30 PM

[up][up] The point being made is that you don't need l-canceling to solve that issue—you can simply halve the amount of landing lag on everyone's moves and it would create the same effect.

edited 23rd Oct '13 6:42:05 PM by Nap1100

doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#26270: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:44:51 PM

@Irene: Nobody here said that it was in Brawl. And, as my a previous poster said, it would be better to cut landlag in half. Best to just get rid of the middleman.

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26271: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:53:30 PM

No. Just put L-Cancelling back. There's no point in believing they'll balance it out for everyone anymore. Not when character bias has shown up(and even if Auto-cancel did apply to more moves, the characters would've still mostly been as bad in Brawl. Ganondorf would've been slightly better. Auto-Cancel does not improve the game, and the bias to only use it on some moves shows it doesn't in practice, either). I'm sick of auto-crap anyway. You don't need to make the game hyper easy. I actually hated Marth's new Side B. It was so boring and didn't even require any skill to use. You don't need to ease the game up. Melee had an extremely balanced meta-game anyway.

Wavedashing can leave because it does have a detrimental effect on the meta-game. It also has actual match issues, since it wastes time and constantly makes super fast characters even worse. L-Cancelling helped a lot of the slower characters at least somewhat equally, and did something worthwhile.

[up][up] And I find that remarkable stupid and a poor excuse to not give the player the most available options. It also has not proven to be a good option so far. We've only been able to cancel all moves if it was manual. And the auto-cancel has been terrible in practice.

[up] I'd still call that terrible entirely. No more auto-crap. Let the players do more with little work instead.

edited 23rd Oct '13 6:55:37 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26272: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:56:05 PM

A compromise: They put back in L-Canceling, but it reduces lag more for different characters. smile

A good compromise leaves everyone angry.

edited 23rd Oct '13 6:56:51 PM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#26273: Oct 23rd 2013 at 6:56:29 PM

Earlier, I corrected someone, saying that Mega Man was just a robot without free-will. I was wrong, apparently. The 30th anniversary book thing specified that he was self aware and had free-will. He just couldn't adapt his programming. My bad.

EDIT: No cancelling for anyone, auto or otherwise?

edited 23rd Oct '13 6:57:08 PM by Zeromaeus

Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012
#26274: Oct 23rd 2013 at 7:00:23 PM

Okay, you lost me. L-canceling should be in the game because it requires skill and balances characters while wavedashing doesn't?

Okay, first of all, again, the effect of l-canceling could be done by simply halving the landing lag of all the characters. Saying that including l-canceling balances out slower characters is a moot point when it halves landing lag for everyone, including those that don't have much landing lag already. All it does it put an arbitrary wall in the way of making a faster paced game.

Second, wavedashing actually had a positive influence on the metagame because it messed with it so much. It provides options. Options aren't a bad thing. As long as everyone has those same (or similar) options and it doesn't make another option obsolete (which unfortunately is the case with some characters since it beats their run speed, hence why I said it could use tweaking) it can make a match more interesting.

edited 23rd Oct '13 7:01:07 PM by Nap1100

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26275: Oct 23rd 2013 at 7:02:15 PM

Not going to compromise. Regular L-Cancelling is the only one I'll accept as actual good design. Auto Cancel is crap is practice and clearly was not made to affect enough moves.

[up][up] Sakurai doesn't believe the same things as the original company? Not that weird. [lol]

[up] L-Cancelling is still balanced while requiring skill. Wavedashing is unbalanced as living hell while requiring skill. That's the key difference.

I disagree on it being positive. It only furthered separated the characters from each other, making super fast ones the only ones truly viable. Brawl didn't actually have this issue as long as Meta Knight didn't exist. Without Meta Knight, Brawl's meta was far more balanced(fast ones were always a bit better, but characters like Snake or Diddy Kong, who aren't really fast ones, also were high. Where Falcon was low compared to the other games). Options are only as good as they were balanced. Wavedashing was broken as hell.

edited 23rd Oct '13 7:04:49 PM by Irene

Shadow?

Total posts: 148,710
Top