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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#26151: Oct 22nd 2013 at 11:26:52 AM

It's impossible to talk about Palutena as a potential character without mentioning her combat prowess. I didn't mention the context, so it should be fine.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26152: Oct 22nd 2013 at 11:28:44 AM

But you did say it was as a boss, whic carries connotations.

I have a message from another time...
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#26153: Oct 22nd 2013 at 11:40:20 AM

Granted, somewhat misleading connotations, but I see your point. I went back and spoiled it.

NesClassic Meh-meh!? from Flyover Country Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: In another castle
Meh-meh!?
#26154: Oct 22nd 2013 at 11:54:38 AM

@Codec: ROBOTIC HAIR

Also, on the topic of Palutena, she was rather fragile in the Chapter 20 fight, but that can be justified as her having to fight the Chaos Kin all those years. I... really don't know how to talk about Pseudo-Palutena, though. Too much wild mass guess on that subject.

🏳️‍⚧️she/her | Vio Rhyse Alberia
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#26155: Oct 22nd 2013 at 1:16:03 PM

I know we probably aren't likely to get any further entrants from Kid Icarus: Uprising... but I can dream.

Overall, though, I think we just won't see as many villains because there just aren't as many iconic Nintendo villains. Push comes to shove, we already have most of the iconic villains. Bowser is already in there, and I don't think any of his kids are going to make the cut anytime soon. Ganondorf is already in there; everyone else is just known for getting hijacked by him. Wario and King Dedede are more anti-heroes (and more often than not, the latter isn't even that) at this point. Donkey Kong shifted to hero years ago. Who else do we have? K. Rool, I guess. Giovanni or Ghetsis from Pokemon, though you have the usual issue of how to properly represent humans from the Pokemon universe (make them also have the switching mechanic?). I guess you could throw in Darkrai from Pokémon Mystery Dungeon, though that inevitably gets a counter from fans of the original (though I bet he would be interesting to play). Ridley, as has been discussed multiple times, though I find it noteworthy that some incarnation of him has been a final boss all of once in the series. Heck, if you were to ask me who I'd pick as the signature villain from Kid Icarus... I'd have to go with the Eggplant Wizard. F'ing Baleful Polymorph.

In short, I like the idea of getting a few more villains in there... but who would even count as iconic enough?

@26141 I like the idea, but that Patented Palutena Trolling Moment wouldn't play out like that. Pit knows full well what robots are - witness his commentary when you find a Cherub-Bot. There's also the space pirates early on. Pit might ponder the collectable value of Mega Man, though...

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#26156: Oct 22nd 2013 at 5:16:58 PM

Is Majora well-known? Favorite villain of the series!

If Mewtwo gets another go this time, I think it should count as an iconic villain. Idea: it uses its X form on Wii U and its Y form on 3DS. Original Mewtwo is an alternate costume (just like Wario).

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26157: Oct 22nd 2013 at 5:26:37 PM

I like the idea of his Final Smash being a combination.

He performs a short-ranged blow in front of him. If it connects, he goes Mega X and beats the enemy up with Close Combat, then goes Mega Y and performs Psystrike, pummeling them with black particles of psychic energy and sending them flying.

I have a message from another time...
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#26158: Oct 22nd 2013 at 8:36:20 PM

Original Mewtwo is an alternate costume (just like Wario).

Ew, no.

That'd be like making Mario an alt costume of Dr Mario instead of the other way around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26159: Oct 22nd 2013 at 8:37:05 PM

Or Small Mario a costume for Super Mario.

I have a message from another time...
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26160: Oct 22nd 2013 at 8:49:21 PM

[up][up] Except not really.

Dr. Mario is treated as his own person from Mario in the Smash Bros. series. Metal Mario in 64 was the exact same thing.(and notably, Metal Mario has also become an entirely separate person nowadays from Mario, having his own personality as well. Not just a simple costume or power-up by this point.)

Meanwhile, the only issue I can see with Mega Mewtwo Y being a costume is the hitboxes. Otherwise, that's the first introduced version for a separate Mewtwo. The first appearance of Mega Mewtwo Y(known as Mewtwo: Awakened Forme) was a different person altogether from the original Mewtwo from the first Movie, having different backstories(one deals with Team Rocket, the other is vague like the games are), only one who met Ash beforehand(being the first Mewtwo, and it does have a second Movie, a Made-for-TV one, which is closer to an episode special, and not a regular Movie, notably, as well as being closer to a continuation of how the first movie is directly tied into the Anime instead of being somewhat related to it by proxy of having the latest character, but barely shows continuity), and they both having different gender-based personalities. Mewtwo 1 was far more violent and masculine. Mewtwo 2 meanwhile was far more caring from the start, but did not acknowledge humans as important at all from the first introduction with Ash, as well as Feminine.

Again, my only issue is the hitbox. Mega Mewtwo Y being the only one shown in battle isn't that odd either. Since that's the Movie-only version shown. A lot of Anime moves get thrown onto a specific Pokemon after all, so transformations isn't too hard to work with. I don't think Mega Mewtwo Y would be a costume, though. It might just be its Final Smash.

Also, Sakurai said everybody will play the same regardless of which version, so Mewtwo having X as his 3DS Final Smash and Y as his Wii U Final Smash(for example) wouldn't happen. What could happen is that they could both be possible depending some kind of circumstance. Like pressing the D-Pad for the X transformation.

Shadow?
Thnikkafan ? from Faroe Islands (not really) Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
?
#26161: Oct 22nd 2013 at 9:14:18 PM

Giovanni being something of an evil Pokemon Trainer would be cool if unlikely. (Persian, Rhydon, and Nidoking, maybe? I don't know.)

Or Ghestis, for that matter. (Hydregion and two other things. But not sure what.)

edited 22nd Oct '13 9:18:06 PM by Thnikkafan

Anyone who assigns themselves loads of character tropes is someone to be worried about.
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#26162: Oct 22nd 2013 at 9:16:03 PM

Sakurai said he wants the characters to perform the same way, nothing about appearance. So, the two mega-evolutions could be spread between the two versions.

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26163: Oct 22nd 2013 at 9:20:39 PM

[up] Unless the Mega Evolutions are exactly the same in everything they do, then they can't be performing the same way. Which means seeing one on the other makes little sense.

You know, performing the same move doesn't work if one is done with a head tail and the other is done with a hand. It might work for Mega Charizard X and Mega Charizard Y since they're extremely alike besides their typings. The Mewtwo ones are very different in design and they'd have to have the exact same moves in order for one to appear depending the version, otherwise they don't "perform" the same.

Shadow?
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#26164: Oct 22nd 2013 at 9:52:58 PM

Except not really. Dr. Mario is treated as his own person from Mario in the Smash Bros. series.

Oh please no, not this nonsense again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26165: Oct 22nd 2013 at 9:54:25 PM

I figure Mewtwo's two forms could be used in sequence in a Final Smash. As I said, X-Form Close Combat followed by Y-Form Psystrike.

I have a message from another time...
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26166: Oct 22nd 2013 at 10:23:40 PM

[up] I can't see them appearing out of the same game, probably with some specific way to summon each. I could even see it being how to select each one is slightly different depending which version.

[up][up] Can't think of any good reason to believe there aren't two separate Marios in Melee just like there was in 64. Brawl was going to have it too, but Dr. Mario didn't get finished. It's also oh-so-odd(except not really) that somehow Sakurai didn't make Dr. Mario a costume? Seems kinda fishy. Almost like he doesn't want to treat them as the same person(Miyamoto also did say that he doesn't see Mario having a doctor role as realistic. So that could be another possible hint they were never the same person in canon).

Now, due to the fact that Metal Mario and Giant Donkey Kong in 64 are treated as separate characters, and there's a reasonable chance that Giant DK could actually be Cranky in his younger form(since Master Hand created the dolls in the first place), and due to the fact that Metal Mario is actually now a different person from Mario in the overall Mario series(except in Super Mario 64, but not the remake) with an entirely different personality even, it's really easy to believe that in Melee, Master Hand made two Marios, one Doctor, one regular. Metal Mario is no longer a separate character, being just Mario using an item like in Super Mario 64(only). One reasonable theory is that the Metal Mario in SSB 64 became Dr. Mario. Why does this make sense? In Dr. Mario 64, there is a Metal Dr. Mario. It could be possible that Metal Mario in SSB 64 was Dr. Mario in disguise. And keeping this in mind, perhaps the Dr. Mario series is really just another dimension. And that particular Mario does become Dr. Mario, where as the Mario in the regular series never did. Also, keep in mind that the term Dr. Mario came from the cartoon, not the games first, so it was probably inspired as a joke. Dr. Luigi was also a name used.

Something interesting to note; Outside of the cartoon, we never see Mario and Dr. Mario in the same exact particular media item(game/episode/etc.) save Melee, or Mario actually putting on a Doctor's Coat. It's only through the description of the game, which more or less describes what Mario looks like if he had donned a Doctor's Coat(which is probably just a reference to the cartoon where the idea originated anyway). Also, as noted by Miyamoto's statement, if he doesn't see Dr. Mario as a role Mario would really play, what's to think that Dr. Mario actually being Mario wasn't retcon'd right then and there, as perhaps just a "Mario has many forms, this used to be one of them".

There's a lot of factors that tell me that Mario and Dr. Mario being the same person isn't entirely legitimate at all. Miyamoto's actual statements contradicts a bit of the games' supposed "canon" statements. Or to put it another way, Dr. Mario and Mario being the same person is not actually official. It could go either way.

edited 22nd Oct '13 10:25:40 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Odd1 Still just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
Still just awesome like that
#26167: Oct 22nd 2013 at 10:30:30 PM

Wait, how were there two separate Marios in the original Smash? ...actually, you know what? Don't actually answer that, because it doesn't matter.

Honestly, I don't think that you're supposed to think this hard about any potential differences between Mario and Dr. Mario. I know this is a site dedicated to the fine art of overanalysis, but, my God, this is really going waaaay too far with it.

Long story short,

edited 22nd Oct '13 10:31:01 PM by Odd1

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26168: Oct 22nd 2013 at 10:32:08 PM

Oh god. Not another one of these. It's Giga Bowser all over again, again. I'm pretty sure that this, too, can go nowhere, and convince neither side.

Anyway. On Mewtwo.

I'm not quite sure I understand what is being said in that sentence. You can't see them using both forms in the same game? I know that the two forms are mutually exclusive in the actual game, but I'd be fine with Smash taking a little liberty with it if we can have both forms be seen. Mking them part of a semi-cinematic Final Smash (in the vein of Great Aether) would be a good way to not worry about model differences too much.

Though, I'd prefer straight Psystrike, myself, Mega optional.

edited 22nd Oct '13 10:32:37 PM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26169: Oct 22nd 2013 at 10:53:57 PM

Odd1: Of course there are. With the lack of transformations, every character is their own separate person in the storyline mode. Special shout out to the Fighting Polygon Team who has no "number" of how many of each exist(seeing as how you can fight . The Kirby Team also has special properties, being unable to lose their B moves, so are probably made-by-Master Hand clones, seeing as he shaped the entire world in 64 and made every person as well(still implied in Melee, Brawl may be the sole exception this storyline point doesn't exist, and Master Hand may no longer be in the storyline in Melee, where Giga Bowser takes his place, or his earlier form, Big Bowser, and no, he's not a Giant-size either, he has his own unique size too. Not terribly odd, though. Final Boss and all). Even the opening heavily implies this. Same with story mode. This is also explains how costumes can exist when two of the same person exist. Since Master Hand created everything, he can create tons of the same character as is.

Melee is an interesting beast as well. Giga Bowser himself is implied to be the same Bowser in Brawl due to his Giga Bowser transformations, in the intro no less. And Brawl Bowser gains that transformation... kind of odd. What's odd about Metal Mario is that he is the same as a costume in Melee, but is actually a separate NPC in SSB 64. They have separate character files. Giga Bowser still has this too in Brawl.(notably the other similar transformations do not have their own character files. It could mean a lot of things. Giga Bowser may have been a pure boss at one time. He could've been another playable clone too. Much like if Metal Mario would be selectable as a playable character in 64)

@Enlong: Actually, Giga Bowser and Dr. Mario are severely different as is. Giga Bowser is implied in-series to be Bowser due to the storyline. Dr. Mario and Mario are never once implied to be related besides purely technical data.(nearly same moveset animation and voice, but that's about it) They're really different situations and shouldn't be treated as alike at all. I'm sure you mean the silly "nobody will let something go", but people need to realize that transformations is the only time in-series that more than one character has ever been implied to be the same person, storyline or otherwise.

And I'm talking about the opposite with Mewtwo. I mean that both forms should show up in both games.

edited 22nd Oct '13 10:55:13 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26170: Oct 22nd 2013 at 10:55:17 PM

Okay, yes, I agree that you say that that's the case. I. Do. Not. Care. To. Discuss. It.

I have a message from another time...
Odd1 Still just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
Still just awesome like that
#26171: Oct 22nd 2013 at 11:08:30 PM

I repeat myself here:

It does not matter in the slightest. Any semblance of plot in the entire franchise (SSE aside) is pure Excuse Plot. It matters about as much as the points in Whose Line Is It Anyway.

edited 22nd Oct '13 11:09:47 PM by Odd1

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26172: Oct 22nd 2013 at 11:09:56 PM

[up] Video not accepted as an answer.

Not really a true Excuse Plot either. It does have plot, which means it is fully discussable. Always.

[up][up] See my last edit.

edited 22nd Oct '13 11:10:33 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Odd1 Still just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
Still just awesome like that
#26173: Oct 22nd 2013 at 11:10:17 PM

[up]See my edit to that post. And please, answer me, why does it matter so much to you?

edited 22nd Oct '13 11:10:41 PM by Odd1

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.
Odd1 Still just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
Still just awesome like that
#26174: Oct 22nd 2013 at 11:14:13 PM

Like, you're trying to discuss the plot of a game in which the plot is completely just tacked on as an excuse for more gameplay. A game in which the gameplay is really all that matters. I don't understand why it matters so much to you to discuss the plot of this.

Honestly, let's just move onto a different subject, because this is getting more circular than two protractors side by side.

So...any new features you guys would want in the game?

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26175: Oct 22nd 2013 at 11:18:07 PM

NEW features? How about expanding the Item Switch to select individual Assist Trophies and Pokeball Pokemon? Unless that counts as an old feature being expanded upon.

Most of what I want is expansion on Brawl's features, not so much entirely wholecloth new things.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

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