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Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26026: Oct 18th 2013 at 11:10:31 PM

Falco's Laser wasn't much different from Fox's besides it having knockback, which was Fox's version in 64.

The only majorly different special move is their Reflectors. One can be held, one can't. Besides that, their specials are mostly identical.

Meanwhile, the only somewhat similar specials Wolf has to Fox are... his Landmaster, since it's simply stronger, but stays out shorter, and his Reflector, being holdable(but it also has a different animation, and has some different properties).

But eh, Wolf really isn't much of a clone at all, and over half of his specials are already different, so calling him a clone just doesn't even make sense by this point.

If somehow we could get Krystal in and had to replace a character for her, Falco's the easy one to go. Protagonist for another Protagonist? Sure. Krystal also offers more uniqueness by her debut game alone. Wolf meanwhile is too unique and imo, I think he deserves to stay more. He's also more important to the storyline that other unique characters, where Falco isn't as significant much, at least over Krystal in some cases.

Keep in mind if I was Sakurai, I'd only put Krystal in as a fourth at best, since Fox, Falco, and Wolf are the most overall popular character. Removing any of them would not go well with the fans, so it's not a worthwhile idea.

Shadow?
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#26027: Oct 18th 2013 at 11:15:31 PM

[up]If I was Sakurai I wouldn't have added Falco in the first place, or at least made him not a clone in the first place.

For the former option, it means there wouldn't be outcry about him being cut because he wasn't in in the first place.

Then again, if I was Sakurai I wouldn't have thought of the genius idea that is Wii Fit Trainer. And That's Terrible. Because she's awesome.

edited 18th Oct '13 11:16:36 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26028: Oct 18th 2013 at 11:40:09 PM

The only possible thing that would've happened is Falco would not have gotten in. But nor would Pichu, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Young Link, or Roy. You know, all rather notable characters in many ways. Either major protagonists, or in Pichu's case, a G/S rep and a movie show-off as per normal.

They only got in because they could be clones. It was either them, or one character, King Dedede. And to be honest? I'm glad Sakurai chose more characters overall, since that meant more content overall, which for a game that shows off Nintendo's history, more content is a pretty big thing, especially since all of those characters were entirely notable or had a reason to be in. Falco is Fox's main Wingman. And a better choice for a clone than Wolf. Dr. Mario has his own games, for crying out loud. He also got in to show off the music that the Staff thought was worth putting in. Pichu as noted starred in a movie, and also was somewhat of a mascot for the Baby Pokemon and GSC in general.(much like Lucario is for DP Pt.) Ganondorf is the main villain of the series, although he's mostly in Ganon form for it, but they share the same overall body, so... and him having a near identical body to Falcon was the key point anyway. Roy was solely for the advertisement of the newest game, and making him a clone was the easiest way to do it. Young Link was also the major protagonist of Majora's Mask as well as half of one for OOT. Adult Link also showed off part of OOT, and Zelda II as a whole, being the main hero of it. Young Link also seemed to be considered the main star of more games than Adult Link, making him kind of the more important of the two. But since Adult Link arrived first in the series, it's obvious who the clone would be, which is the second Link.(applies the same as Toon Link)

Likewise, let's remember that Link's(all 3 variations among most of the series) have the same iconic moves, Spin Attack, Bombs, Bow, and Boomerang. Triforce Slash was kind of silly, though, and I would've given Toon Link a different Final Smash only.(the other specials are very major items in Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass, you know. Well, I forget how often Spin Attack was used, but the rest...) Young Link was absolutely no different in Melee in this scenario.

Shadow?
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#26029: Oct 18th 2013 at 11:42:28 PM

Young Link was in because there was a lot of Ocarina Of Time / Majoras Mask promotion in Melee.

Classic Link is more important than Young Link. Young Link is from the two N64 games, while Classic Link stars in seven.

Granted, I don't want Classic Link in Smash, but I was just sayin'.

Dr. Mario has his own games, for crying out loud.

And? It's just another Mario spin-off. And one of the minor ones at that. There are dozens of Mario characters that deserve to be in Smash more than Mario in doctor's scrubs.

And they could have the theme music in without him anyway. They've got plenty of cases like that in Melee and Brawl.

edited 18th Oct '13 11:58:18 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26030: Oct 19th 2013 at 12:25:56 AM

Dr. Mario is not a minor series. It's the first unique series to star a different version of Mario as is, and has a fairly high amount of games. That's ridiculous. Dr. Mario is a very important version of Mario and always has been. In addition, no, they had no reason to add the music at the time without the character. All the music shown in Melee is because an appropriate character is in from that particular series. Same reason we even got the awesome Metal Cap music... because Metal Mario was in 64 and also later in Melee.

Classic Link didn't even exist till ALBW. All of those were Young/Adult Links till WW, which was the official debut of Toon Link(at least the Smash Bros. version of him, anyway. Since the design got somewhat used beforehand, but Toon Link did only star in two specific games at the time anyway). Likewise, there is no "specifically named Link" in the history of actual Zelda games. They're all just named Link. Mind you, that's for his regular Hylian form. His alternate forms that are different species entirely have reasonable names, although they're only given based upon the species entirely. And even then, ask people whether the ALTTP animal version is named Rabbit Link or Bunny Link. You'll get mixed answers. Not to mention Fierce Deity Link or Oni Link.(justified since those are regional names) Then there's Zora, Goron, and Deku Link, who actually are named that.

He's just known as Link until he takes another species-based form. That's his actual canon name. Young Link, Adult Link, Toon Link, and Classic Link are purely nicknames, and in the case of Smash, two canon names solely to tell them apart from the regular name of Link. They're still just Link. Even if they're not the exact same person(due to some Links dying and new ones coming about, but it's a generational name anyway).

edited 19th Oct '13 12:34:55 AM by Irene

Shadow?
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#26031: Oct 19th 2013 at 12:46:34 AM

[up]Dr Mario is not a separate version of Mario. He IS Mario.

and has a fairly high amount of games

Most of which are ports.

All the music shown in Melee is because an appropriate character is in from that particular series.

Mach Rider and Balloon Fighter. And no, it doesn't matter if they were planned initially. They still have their music in the game.

Same reason we even got the awesome Metal Cap music...

The themes used for Metal Mario in Smash are not the Metal Cap theme.

edited 19th Oct '13 12:46:51 AM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26032: Oct 19th 2013 at 1:19:04 AM

Huh, my bad on the Metal Cap part. Although it's still a Metal Mario-based theme, obviously, as it's his theme.

Mario and Dr. Mario being the same person has nothing to do with what I said whatsoever. Dr. Mario is a variation of regular Mario, which is what I said. You know, kind of like Link and Zora Link? That's what I'm talking about. It's the same idea as that. Dr. Mario is a full series with unique characters anyway. Sakurai deciding to take Dr. Mario, who stars in his own unique spin-off series, and making him playable makes perfect sense if he was going for a Mario clone. Since, you know, they have nearly the same name. It was no different from making Metal Mario a full character in 64 as well.(and Metal Mario has his own character data in 64. It's not just Mario with an Item on like in Melee/Brawl. Or some gameplay status or special mode. He actually was an entirely different character. It's kind of odd, considering he went from a full character to being downgraded to a status effect clone instead in Melee/Brawl). But you still missed my entire point; When I say Dr. Mario is a variation of Mario starring in his own games, it's exactly what I said and is 100% true. The Dr. Mario series is a notable series that many games have played before, and stars a different version of Mario(different as in they clearly aren't the exact same guy. One's a Doctor who has entirely different gameplay, while the other is a Plumber who mostly does Platforming and Sports, with a bit of RPG and Edutainment stuff on the side, and some Fighting in an entirely separate Series alone.) And even so, the Dr. Mario series itself is entirely separated from any of the regular Mario games, the only characters from the other Mario games to show up were... Dr. Mario and Wario(the other characters are from the Wario Land series, meaning that Dr. Mario 64 if anything takes place in the Wario settings, not the Mario settings.). There's also 5 unique games in the Dr. Mario series, and that's not including the Ports. That's not exactly a "small" series. Anymore than some ones already in Smash with even less games and more characters. Mother/Earthbound says hi. F-Zero doesn't have a hefty amount of games either. Even if they're going to go with a clone of Mario, which was the intention at the time, they might as well go with the only version of him to star in his own series. The choice was... pretty obvious, considering that Dr. Mario is a pretty popular series.

Likewise, nowhere does your message imply that having the character playable has anything to do with having their music in the game. Nor did I even say that. I said having the character show up was key to having the music show up. Trophies count too. If Dr. Mario didn't even show up in any way, why would the music? Makes no sense to me. We'd at least see a Trophy of him, after all, since that means the character showed up in some way(which was exactly what I said anyway). But that's an easy misunderstanding to make here. I had no idea you were implying that playable had any effect on music. Although I'm not sure that's the case either, considering the mention of guys like Mach Rider.

Shadow?
NesClassic Meh-meh!? from Flyover Country Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: In another castle
Meh-meh!?
#26033: Oct 19th 2013 at 4:47:05 AM

NOOOOO

DATA VAMPIRES DUMB IPHONE *ahem*

Anyways, what I was saying was Smash Bros. should have communism with Misdreavus coming out of Pokéballs and using Pain Split, which equalizes everyone's damage %. (This isn't a run-on sentence, what are you talking about?)

Before you say it shouldn't auto-target everyone, we have items like the Clock and even Manaphy from Pokéballs. And Pokéballs can be turned off anyways.

edited 19th Oct '13 4:48:11 AM by NesClassic

🏳️‍⚧️she/her | Vio Rhyse Alberia
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#26034: Oct 19th 2013 at 4:52:52 AM

Dr. Mario has no relation to Mario. Not sure why you'd think that.

MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#26035: Oct 19th 2013 at 6:12:21 AM

[up]I really hope that was sarcasm.

Likewise, nowhere does your message imply that having the character playable has anything to do with having their music in the game. Nor did I even say that. I said having the character show up was key to having the music show up. Trophies count too. If Dr. Mario didn't even show up in any way, why would the music? Makes no sense to me. We'd at least see a Trophy of him, after all, since that means the character showed up in some way(which was exactly what I said anyway). But that's an easy misunderstanding to make here. I had no idea you were implying that playable had any effect on music. Although I'm not sure that's the case either, considering the mention of guys like Mach Rider.

Okay, I'm having a little trouble understanding what your saying here, but I was saying that the Mach Rider and Balloon Fighter music were present without a playable rep from their series. I also attempted to save time by bringing up how they were considered for the roster in development, but their removal did not prevent a song from their games getting in.

And I was saying that if they can do that, they could have included the Dr Mario theme without Dr Mario anyway. Especially considering how they apparently really liked that theme.

But we didn't need him anyway. We had Luigi, and the fact that they were diversifying him from Mario meant they were making progress. Honestly, without Dr Mario, the game would still have 24 characters (25 if you count Shiek as separate), and 24 would still have been an acceptable roster size for Melee.

edited 19th Oct '13 6:13:41 AM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26036: Oct 19th 2013 at 7:28:14 AM

I would have preferred Ganondorf to have spells and a flight mode from Ocaina, myself. Heck, even keep done of Falcon's punches, and Flane Choke.

But, realistically, Ganobdorf will remain tied somewhat to Falcon, as a holdover from Melee, just like [REDACTED]

What if a Pokeball was Pumpkaboo using Trick Or Treat? He'd turn his target into a Ghost type by temporarily separating their spirit from their body. The ghost would be able to run around and attack, but their body would lie down like they lost a Stamina match. The ghost would have to defend their body.

edited 19th Oct '13 7:31:01 AM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#26037: Oct 19th 2013 at 8:28:11 AM

In early 1991, eight characters was considered a sizable number for a Fighting game. In late 2001, some people complained that 26 fighters was a bit on the small size. That's how much things have changed.

Though, really, it was probably those critics who were wrong, since there are still popular Fighters - such as Blaz Blue - with fewer characters to choose from.

I'd like to imagine a tier list from an alternate universe where Falco, Young Link, Ganondorf, Dr. Mario, and Pichu were replaced with Dedede.

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26038: Oct 19th 2013 at 8:48:55 AM

[up] Roy would've been too. There was never a chance for them to be non-clones for Sakurai's intentions. Since most of the time would be spent on King Dedede instead of 6 clones with somewhat different gameplay(to varying degrees), it's possible they might've had the time to include Snake when he was asked. But that's fairly unlikely, since it was a time issue during the development(and nothing more). The only one that didn't have planned characters that we can't account for a time issue so far is 64, but then again, has Sakurai once mentioned why he chose the rest? I don't remember him speaking about it in 64's case, just that he had some characters considered... I should re-read the interview just in case, though.

@Cassidy: Pretty much. They're clearly a different set of games with different gameplay, and starring entirely different versions of Mario anyway. They can be the same person all they want, but they're still overall different characters starring in different kinds of games. They're even more separated than the different designs of the tunic-wearing versions of Link.(who are also treated as different characters in Smash. Although in some cases, they are different people, or take place in different timelines, like Young and Adult Links due to the OOT split timeline, which also officially happens in canon, anyway. This also heavily applies to TP and WW Link, who are entirely different people as is. They just happen to have the same official name in the storyline, but... that's their main common thing. I mean, besides gameplay stuff, but storyline-wise, they really aren't that similar at all) Nintendo does loving showing off variations of the same character, sometimes making them different people too.(see the various versions of Goombas, Boos... etc.)

Shadow?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26039: Oct 19th 2013 at 11:32:28 AM

[up][up]For Smash Bros., the roster size desires/complaints aren't so much "what's ideal for a fighting game" as they are "what's ideal for representing Nintendo's library of games". A lot of people, even competitive players, just want to see a ton of characters from different reaches of Nintendo's history.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26040: Oct 19th 2013 at 4:38:12 PM

[up] Exactly. The game was even described on the back of the Box(till Brawl) as having Nintendo's All-Stars. That is, notable characters in Nintendo's history, which has been every playable character so far. Although they are some odd ones. Pokemon Trainer, Mr. Game & Watch, and Giga Bowser aren't specific characters from any regular game outside of Smash, same with Villager. But they are based upon them, with Giga being a fully Original Character, not that Sakurai making those are odd. Master Hand, for instance.

Shadow?
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#26041: Oct 19th 2013 at 4:59:56 PM

I wouldn't call Giga Bowser a "fully" original character. He's just Nintendo's most famous villain, enlarged and turned into a demon.

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26042: Oct 19th 2013 at 5:02:59 PM

No. That's one of Those Topics.

We acknowledge that there are two ways of looking at Giga Bowser: as an entirely different character who just looks like Bowser, and as Bowser himself under the influence of some Original Generation magic. That is all that needs to be said,a s the two sides are hard to reconcile.

What would be a good Xenoblade Assist Trophy? I'm thinking Riki, or Seven.

edited 19th Oct '13 5:03:38 PM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26043: Oct 19th 2013 at 5:12:27 PM

Giga Bowser is not an Original Generation. He's based upon a previous Mario character, but isn't an actual Mario character in any way whatsoever. He's an Smash OC, and probably will stay that way forever in the actual games.(not counting Fanworks, obvously)

That's not how Original Generation works. That's an entirely different character that has no ties with an actual pre-existing character or race in some kind of crossover work or fanwork. It's why making your own Pokemon Trainer in some kind of fanfiction or roleplay is just an Original Character as normal. Meanwhile, making an entirely unrelated character counts towards Original Generation as long as it's not based upon another specific species(which would probably be highly difficult for Pokemon, but not impossible).

Original Generation cannot apply to Giga Bowser as he is still a version of Bowser, but since Giga Bowser has nothing to do with the Mario series, he fails to be a regular character being shown, and has to be under Original Character. Since that's pretty much how the trope works.

Shadow?
doctrainAUM White Hindu from New Jersey Since: Aug, 2010
White Hindu
#26044: Oct 19th 2013 at 5:17:06 PM

It's scary and more than a bit embarrassing to find that you've repeated a controversy that you didn't know existed.

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26045: Oct 19th 2013 at 5:18:47 PM

He's more of [REDACTED]

I have a message from another time...
EviIPaladin Some Guy Or Something from Middle-Of-Nowhere, NS Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: Noddin' my head like yeah
Some Guy Or Something
#26046: Oct 19th 2013 at 5:52:42 PM

[up]What's Divekick got to do with this?

"Evii is right though" -Saturn "I didn't know you were a bitch Evii." -Lior Val
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#26047: Oct 19th 2013 at 6:13:01 PM

You know what? In hindsight, I wish they just chose Dedede. Pichu, Young Link and Roy were just because they were important at the time (READ: Advertising) and were cut from Brawl anyway, Falco is important to Star Fox, but he doesn't bring much more to the table that Fox doesn't, and Dr Mario is just... THE MOST UNDESERVING CHARACTER OF ALL-TIME

Really, the only one that got cut that would have actually mattered is Ganondorf, and he would have probably been added to Brawl anyway, and probably wouldn't have been a clone that way.

Nintendo does loving showing off variations of the same character, sometimes making them different people too.(see the various versions of Goombas, Boos... etc.)

Those are species, not characters.

edited 19th Oct '13 6:17:45 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#26048: Oct 19th 2013 at 6:21:05 PM

[up][up] What's that about Sonic's Air Down A? tongue

Shadow?
MagcargoMan Hooray! Bubble Party! Since: Oct, 2010
Hooray! Bubble Party!
#26049: Oct 19th 2013 at 6:34:58 PM

Oh crap. I just found out the attack for attacking out of tripping is a separate attack from the attack for attacking while getting up from the ground.

Now I have to go boot up my Wii again because the Link/Toon Link comparison is not complete.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM
Nap1100 Since: Mar, 2012

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