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Irene Whip It Good from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Whip It Good
Aug 10th 2018 at 11:48:28 AM

Echo Fighters aren't meaningless. They are definitely different from regular clones. There's a reason why clones like Dr. Mario and Pichu don't have a specific distinction. And even if you want to call Dr. Mario a semi-clone now, Pichu is still a regular clone in every way. He is not an Echo.

Their requirements are 1:1 proportions. Also, slightly changing the tilts doesn't change anything. Remember that the tilts being slightly modified requires no real effort. This was always allowed, but we knew they didn't have to have identical animations, just near similar. It has to be a blatant modification as is.

I know people love to say "Echo Fighters are just new clones", but that will always be inaccurate. They're a new type of Clone class that was created since 4, and outright named in Ultimate. They have proven time and time again to be distinct from a Clone. The only actual blurred line is what Semi-Clones really are. And how many degrees of them can there be. Is it just "use the base character to make while sharing a few moves" like Wolf, or do they need to still have a ton of the same moves like Jigglypuff? Clones are clear. They use a character as a base, then have nearly the same moveset with changes, and can also have different proportions. Every clone has fairly unique properties, including speed, weight, and moveset functions to some degree. Echoes have less than that, but have proven to allow more freedom than shown with Lucina and Dark Pit.

So Chrom's up tilt is basically from Marth... who shares the same body shape as Chrom and Roy too. Well, that further goes into my theory that Echoes don't have to only take from the original base character, but can take from a character with an almost identical body shape too. That's good, as it allows more freedom.

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BadWolf21 The Fastest Man Alive
The Fastest Man Alive
Aug 10th 2018 at 11:59:15 AM

Their requirements are 1:1 proportions.

You realize that this has never been officially said anywhere, right? You keep saying it, but it doesn't actually have to be the case.

Characters like Pichu and Dr. Mario could very well have been Echo Fighters. But they joined the series way back in Melee and fans are used to them being their own characters now, so they're not. Dark Pit and Lucina were particularly egregious examples of clone characters from the most recent game, so they became the standard-bearers for the new way of presenting them.

May I suggest taking a step back for a bit? You're writing very long posts about something that is entirely arbitrary and really not work getting worked up over.

MileRun Possibly just a glitch. from where you aren't looking Relationship Status: It was just a setback
Possibly just a glitch.
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:05:51 PM

I'm pretty sure you're putting more thought into this than Sakurai. Dark Pit is more similar to Pit and Dark Samus is more different from Samus than any of the Melee clones were to their respective characters. Chrom's differing up B makes him about as different from Roy as Doc's Tornado makes him different from Mario. It's no secret that Melee's clones and the characters in 4 who would come to be known as Echo Fighters have the same reason for existing. The only constant that separates the two categories is in which Smash games the characters debuted.

...what the?
randomness4 Cute Huggs from Land of Inconvenience
Cute Huggs
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:13:04 PM

If animations don't need to be 1:1...then it's literally just proportions and frame data then.

If say even the slightest animation differences Dark Samus has still ends at the same time one of Samus' animations. Then that's that.

It's a minor thing, but that seems to be what matters.

Nobody needs to get worked up over anything, but it seems really simple.

Edited by randomness4 on Aug 10th 2018 at 12:15:49 PM

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Irene Whip It Good from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Whip It Good
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:25:12 PM

Bill Trinen absolutely said "they have to have 1:1 proportions". Yes, it's been officially said. You can argue he has bad information, but that's a 100% official statement no matter what. It's pretty impossible to deny that fact. The fact he hasn't been proven wrong is another notable thing.

1:1 proportions do not mean 1:1 animations. We already knew they could be slightly modified(including for Final Smashes). We thought it meant that in 4, but Ultimate already noted to us(by Bill as well) that it's absolutely not the case. Also the proportions often is missaid as relating to the model. It's the skeleton itself. Which holds true with every Echo. Chrom's model is the same proportions, but he has a different muscle mass. An understandable confusion about proportions and all.

Dr. Mario actually had different move properties in Melee. He could be argued an Echo(but Echoes did not seriously exist till 4). He has more power, more knockback, different attack speeds on one move, his Megavitamins are absolutely different. Though it seems like the only real reason he isn't an Echo is because his moveset is different in 4, where it had to be the same bar the Final Smash(bar slight property changes). He also has a different weight as is, as slight as it is, which is cited as something an Echo can not(and I do question if that's true too). Pichu does not have 1:1 proportions and actually has a different skeleton altogether. They have similar body shapes, not the same skeleton. He could never have been an Echo realistically. He has also a lot of different powerful moves. He shares the same near animations, which is the key similarity to Pikachu. Proportions? Not even close. Hell, Roy has a far closer skeleton than Pichu does. Echoes do not mean "exact same move animations" either. That's a misconception simply because they're a very low effort class of clone. Some clones have share the entire animations while Echoes have not. Plus, we know for a fact that animations can be modified(but obviously they can for clones too).

[up] Another good way to put it, yeah. Arguably weight and running speed too, but I'm not exactly keen on believing Bill on that anymore. Unless by frame data you meant that too? I forgot what frame data entails. I don't actually look into frame data as I don't play that competitively or analyze in that way. I should though, since it'd help me with working on my various Fighting games.

Edited by Irene on Aug 10th 2018 at 2:26:27 PM

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Anomalocaris20 Taste the rainbow from Sagittarius A* Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
Taste the rainbow
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:26:05 PM

So on the subject of Echo Fighters, I've been looking at each franchise and considering which ones are likely to get Echoes.

  • Super Mario: Already got one in Daisy. I don't think a second Echo is likely for them, unless they decide to make Dry Bowser a playable character. So... not likely.
  • Donkey Kong Country: They did just get King K. Rool, but Metroid got both a full newcomer and an echo so it's entirely possible. Funky Kong for Donkey Kong is a popular pick, as is Dixie Kong for Diddy Kong; apparently Diddy Kong's moveset was changed to no longer use his tail for his jab combo, so they may very well be planning to add her; the question is if Diddy still has his pink and yellow palette.
  • The Legend of Zelda: I don't see any of the Links getting Echoes since they're already semi-clones of each other. Zelda's lack of an obvious Hilda palette could be foreshadowing, and some people have suggested Impa as a Sheik Echo, but personally I think they'll get one full newcomer and no Echo.
  • Metroid: Just got Dark Samus, and there's nobody really left to add, so no.
  • Yoshi: Nah.
  • Kirby: Dark Meta Knight could potentially be a Meta Knight Echo, since we haven't seen Meta Knight's DMK palette yet as far as I know. It might be overplaying the "Dark" Echo card, though. Echo unlikely.
  • Star Fox: There's not many people left to add. Fox, Falco, and Wolf are all already in the game and there's only so many times you can recycle their similar movesets, and Krystal's confirmed for an AT. I don't see anyone clamoring for Slippy or Peppy. No Echo.
  • Pokemon: There's not really any popular Echo that would work off the existing characters except maybe Raichu as a Pikachu Echo, but the proportions are a little off. Like Zelda, I think Pokemon will get a full newcomer and no Echo.
  • EarthBound: Ninten I feel is too similar to Ness to be an Echo; most Echo fighters at least have different designs to feel distinct. Claus could work as a Lucas Echo, but again he's basically a palette swap. Don't see an Echo happening.
  • F-Zero: Falcon still has his Blood Falcon palette, so that's not happening. Black Shadow as a redux of Melee Ganondorf is a popular pick. Gonna consider this possible but unlikely.
  • Fire Emblem: FE already has the dubious distinction of having two Echo fighters whose root characters are already semi-clones, so I don't think yet another is likely. There's plenty of options to pick from at least. Echo unlikely.
  • Kid Icarus: Pit already has Dark Pit. Palutena doesn't really have any options; Viridi does have a staff, but she's still likely on the Reset Bomb Forest stage, and Medusa fights too differently. No Echo.
  • WarioWare: Wario is inimitable. No Echo.
  • Pikmin: If Pikmin was going to have an Echo, it would have been Alph getting promoted, but he's still just a costume. No Echo.
  • Animal Crossing: A lot of people are talking about Isabelle, including some leakers who may or may not have been right. I don't think she really works in that role, but I'm going to give it a definite maybe.
  • Wii Fit: No.
  • Punch-Out!!: While the whole cast is boxers, nobody really matches Little Mac's style well as a tiny, rapid jabber. Echo unlikely.
  • Xenoblade Chronicles: I've said before there's a viable Shulk Echo, but if it WERE to happen it would be as DLC. Possible but unlikely.
  • Splatoon: Everybody says Octoling, but that would fuck up the ink color system. I'm not just going to say it's unlikely, I'm going to say it's nigh-impossible for purely mechanical reasons. Not unless they can pull eight more very distinct ink colors outta their ass.
  • Retro: Nope.
  • Metal Gear Solid: Snake's already sort of an amalgam of Solid Snake and Big Boss, so I don't see the latter getting his own spot. Echo very unlikely.
  • Sonic the Hedgehog: A lot of people are banking on Shadow. With Richter proving that third-party characters can have Echoes, I'm actually gonna consider this very probable. However, it's also possible that the only reason they subbed Shadow for Knuckles was because the former was basically just the Stop Watch item.
  • Mega Man: Not happening. Any potential Echo is already part of his Final Smash.
  • Pac-Man: Ms. Pac-Man has been suggested, but... why? She's just Pac-Man with lipstick and a ribbon. One thing every Echo Fighter thus far has added is that while their movesets are shared, their character, stances, voices, personalities, ect. are very distinct from their source character. Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man have no personality to distinguish them by.
  • Street Fighter: I don't just think Ken is possible, I think he's very likely at this point. Street Fighter got a crapload of new songs for its stage so it's obvious they want to add a lot of Street Fighter content.
  • Final Fantasy: The exact opposite of Street Fighter's scenario, no Echo is happening because FF is extremely barebones in Smash to begin with.
  • Bayonetta: It would have been Jeanne, but she's still a palette swap for Bayonetta, so no.
  • Castlevania: Already got theirs, so no more.

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TPPR10 Local Man Brings Rice from Suomus Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Local Man Brings Rice
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:27:33 PM

Honestly, I was sort of surprised that Chrom got in. I'd figured Sakurai would be more self-aware than that, but I guess there is no such thing as negative votes.

Eat, shoot, repeat
powerpuffbats The Undead Miko from Green Hill Zone Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
The Undead Miko
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:28:58 PM

Sorry to go back to an older post, but this one really piqued my interest:

Unless it's remotely a rule Sakurai actually created(and even noting that rule alone is ten times more productive than acting like a pure know-it-all), it's worthless to shut down an idea. And sometimes that rule/guideline can be ignored if it's for the fans(no, I won't say Goku has a real chance of being playable, if we're going for an example. I think he'll stick to the rule he created. Obviously if Sakurai ever were to go for a non-game character, he'd use iconic characters anyway. One recognizable enough that it would please a ton of fans. Goku, Mickey Mouse, Popeye, these are all big enough that easily would get someone's attention).

A couple things here:

You wanna know what it feels like being stuck in a clay body? It is awful.
Irene Whip It Good from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Whip It Good
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:29:37 PM

Ninten does have a design using a beret instead of a backwards cap. I'd rather he wasn't in instead of an alt myself, but they could use that. (note that considering Lucas is basically a semi of Ness, I'd rather not have 3 movesets. Only reason I don't mind with the Links is because Toon Link took Young Link's spot in Brawl by proxy, so it wasn't a big deal at the time. Though I'll be fair and say Ninten wouldn't be a big deal anyway. Just not my cup of tea, but I got no real argument against it)


I'm going to say this as someone who expected Chrom as an Echo(just of Ike, not Roy. In hindsight, Roy makes perfect sense); With two of Awakening's 3 characters playable in 4, and Chrom outright shafted during 4 to the point of being mocked, I felt this was a perfect thing to come full circle. I wouldn't have cared if Lucina wasn't playable, but I think there's no point in having 2/3 protagonists there. Mind you, Chrom being a Final Smash was fine. But him being knocked out, left lying in the dirt, and then mocked by Viridi? Fans didn't take it well. They really thought he should be playable due to this. Mind you, this is obviously more of a fan viewing on my part. He's also someone people expected but had legit fans, so the ballot probably got him in.

Edited by Irene on Aug 10th 2018 at 2:36:26 PM

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BadWolf21 The Fastest Man Alive
The Fastest Man Alive
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:33:15 PM

I think it's important to also point out that costumes are still a thing. Like, Wii Fit Trainer doesn't need a Male Wii Fit Trainer Echo because they're already the same thing, just reskinned. Same with other versions of Link. Zelda doesn't need an Echo because with three body-shapes for Link already in the game, they can get any of the others that they want in via costumes.

MS. PAC-MAN should be that. Give regular PAC-MAN the Tertiary Sexual Characteristics and be done with it. Also, we should get her. Her game is arguably the more popular one anyway.

Irene Whip It Good from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Whip It Good
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:38:45 PM

I agree. Not every alt should have it. Alph is one of the few who I wouldn't mind, but also see why he isn't(as the character is still called Pikmin & Olimar in Japan, just like it was from day one in Brawl. The Pikmin are basically a key focus of the moveset, with the Captain being interchangeable). While he isn't directly confirmed as a costume via the site or anything, I think he is still one due to the previous game and no real evidence to suggest otherwise.

Hilda is a missing alt costume for Zelda, so I could see that happening. But to be honest, I think Zelda might stay at 6 characters. Skull Kid actually could be our next one, for ballot reasons. As much as I want Tingle, he's probably not in. Not just because of the Great Bay stage(as while people can make the Toon Link on Spirit Tracks argument, he was a playable character beforehand. Sakurai has never presented a character in an NPC role and then showed they were playable in the same game, in that exact order of events. It can happen, of course, but it just means the Toon Link thing isn't a great argument due to the nature of how Sakurai reveals things).

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Anomalocaris20 Taste the rainbow from Sagittarius A* Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
Taste the rainbow
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:40:24 PM

MS. PAC-MAN costume for PAC-MAN would be cool and acceptable. I just don't see the purpose in making her an Echo. I don't know anyone who actually wants her because they like her and want her to be a distinct character, just people who point out she COULD function as a replica of PAC-MAN.

What is with Namco and ALL-CAPS'ing everything related to PAC-MAN, anyway?

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BadWolf21 The Fastest Man Alive
The Fastest Man Alive
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:41:31 PM

I dunno. It's just the official way to do it.

Probably has to do with how it's trademarked.

randomness4 Cute Huggs from Land of Inconvenience
Cute Huggs
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:42:19 PM

I forgot what frame data entails.

Frame data is just in reference to when moves start and end.

Ness doesn't have a backwards cap, he has a sideways cap...like a gangster.

Edited by randomness4 on Aug 10th 2018 at 12:45:31 PM

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VampireBuddha [DATA EXPUNGED] from Right behind you. Just keep typing. Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
[DATA EXPUNGED]
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:52:29 PM

I wonder if Wii Balance Board will be a character. It's the character in Wii Fit that you interact with the most, so it would be interesting to see Sakurai make a moveset for it.

Oh, and it looks like there's a pre-orderable special edition that comes with a steelbook, GameCube controller, and adaptor. So help me I want that; hopefully it will be available in physical shops.

Irene Whip It Good from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Whip It Good
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:52:41 PM

I was referring to Ninten's cap being backwards. ...Or thought I was. Anyway, Ninten can wear a beret so people can't easily confuse Ninten with Ness.

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BadWolf21 The Fastest Man Alive
The Fastest Man Alive
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:54:58 PM

Anyone else kind of hoping we DONT get Decidueye? I find it an uninspiring choice. Id rather get a Gen III, or V rep, or if it HAS to be VII, Id prefer Tapu Koko.

randomness4 Cute Huggs from Land of Inconvenience
Cute Huggs
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:55:08 PM

For some reason people portray Ninten as wearing a sideways cap opposite of Ness...as well as wearing a red, white, and blue shirt...and a scarf.

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Irene Whip It Good from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Whip It Good
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:58:43 PM

With Mimikyu out, my favorite choice, I got no issues with the Ghost Owl. Or Incineroar. He doesn't feel uninspired at all, honestly. He's a severely unique design with lots of unique abilities. I doubt we'll get anything beyond a VII choice, though. The timing fits right into that particular development plan as it's the latest game. The only ones I don't think would happen are those created for USUM like Lycanroc's final form and Zeroara. Zeroara could potentially be DLC, but I doubt it too. It has a low chance of really being popular as is, but it could be considered if it hits off, and that's assuming we have no VII at that point. VIII characters have no chance beyond DLC.

Though at least Gen VII has some really great designs that could work. Including Tapu Koko(who doesn't interest me, but I like the starters and Mimikyu better).

[up] Ninten has more than one design to look at. So that's not surprising. Plus, redesigns can happen for Smash anyway(as shown by Roy).

Edited by Irene on Aug 10th 2018 at 3:01:24 AM

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MileRun Possibly just a glitch. from where you aren't looking Relationship Status: It was just a setback
Possibly just a glitch.
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:59:12 PM

With Mimikyu out of the picture, I'd prefer Tapu Koko as the Gen VII rep, followed closely by fused Lusamine. Would be okay with Zeraora as a Lucario echo.

I think it's more likely that they'll just skip VII entirely and wait to do DLC for VIII, though.

...what the?
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:59:14 PM

So I read somewhere about the possibility of Necrozma being the Gen VII Pokemon representative, and I'm very okay with that.

We'd get a heavyweight Pokemon antagonist, to begin with. And we already have Final Smash material with Ultra Necrozma and Light That Burns the Sky.

Not to mention, it is the first version mascot since gen I to not be a giant animal in its standard form (canonically 40 cm taller than Mewtwo). And, all in all, it'd be quite unique compared to, say, Incineroar.

(I also think a Kalos trainer with Chespin, Braixen and Greninja could have worked really well, but that's because I build parallels between Charizard and Greninja)

Karxrida *ring ring* from Darkness within Darkness
*ring ring*
Aug 10th 2018 at 12:59:34 PM

The rep will just be Kartana, obvs.

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fasoman1996 HYPECAM from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
HYPECAM
Aug 10th 2018 at 1:03:29 PM

We are getting Shuckle instead

Long live the hype.
Aug 10th 2018 at 1:04:51 PM

The stage select screen has plenty of empty space in the lower row; we can have a total of 109 stages if it gets filled up...

Gimme Ultra Space as a new Pokemon stage! Buzzwole if not playable is the kind of hazard that makes everything better!

(Also, can also see Poipole having some potential as a Pokemon newcomer)

Anomalocaris20 Taste the rainbow from Sagittarius A* Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
Taste the rainbow
Aug 10th 2018 at 1:05:31 PM

I'm still in the Decidueye camp. It's my favorite of the Alolan evolved starters, and I feel like it has more moveset potential than the other two.

Necrozma is interesting but rather large. I don't think we'll se much USUM content, though, if any, so it wouldn't have access to much of its moveset potential.

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