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Kory: i will need to do some more testing to see if the 500KB should be lowered even more but either way everyone can relax because the database will not crash or implode in anyway due to page size so splitting pages isn't a huge priority and is just more of a suggestion. For pages that actually load slow, splitting the pages will help slower internet users navigate these pages better.

     Eddie's old post 
Looks like we have a big page lock coming. Big in the sense of many pages and big in the sense that the pages to be locked are too big.

It looks like pages over 500,000 characters (html formatted, that is) are crashing the server when someone tries to edit them. programmer's whine 

They need to be fixed, anyway. Way too big for one page. They need to be broken up into subpages of a reasonable size.

I'm trying to get better about communicating before big changes, so we'll let this one run for a while before taking the action. The server crashes do come under the heading of 'urgent', though.

another programmer's thing 

See this page: Overly Long Pages

Explanation of what triggers the too-long page warning

Edited by kory on Dec 18th 2023 at 2:36:21 AM

DanteVin The Time Has Come from Somewhere Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Singularity
#3026: Dec 16th 2023 at 4:26:46 PM

Got another too long warning while crosswicking just a single example into Animesque... yet the page's counter on the bottom left is only at 195K.

Not sure why I seem to be noticing more of these too long warnings recently... Has something changed in the backend today which now marked pages that weren't flagged as "too long" before?

With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation
AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#3027: Dec 16th 2023 at 4:28:34 PM

[up] Animesque seems easy to split. Just split the biggest one of them off based on the soft split.

Malady (X-Troper)
#3028: Dec 16th 2023 at 4:33:36 PM

[up][up] - Yes. Limit went down by 100K.

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DanteVin The Time Has Come from Somewhere Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Singularity
#3029: Dec 16th 2023 at 5:01:08 PM

[up]Ah so that's why the "too long" warning keeps popping up a lot recently.

I'm currently in the middle of a Crosswicking spree, which is why I noticed this happening today. In fact, I found another one a minute ago - BlindIdiotTranslation.Video Games.

If it's due to a backend change, I think I'll just hold off/avoid attempting to make page splits for now, just to be safe? Don't wanna make massive unilateral moves across a lot of pages, especially if it's clear that likely a ton of pages are being affected right now.

With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation
Malady (X-Troper)
#3030: Dec 16th 2023 at 6:13:28 PM

WMG.El Goonish Shive

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Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#3031: Dec 16th 2023 at 7:24:03 PM

[up][up]The English translations would be safe to split off into a separate page, though before we split off the page, there are many unfolderized examples.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Dec 16th 2023 at 10:24:33 AM

Kirby is awesome.
MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#3032: Dec 17th 2023 at 12:15:01 AM

@Kory: I think Eddie's point wasn't so much about long pages in and of themselves crashing the site so much as saving a long page crashing the site. Not that you didn't take that into account anyway, but I wouldn't have been surprised if the wiki infrastructure was a lot more primitive when the thread started back in 2010, when The Great Crash was still in recent memory. (Also, the fact that Eddie talked about the servers crashing when someone tries to save a long page, but then that long pages needed to be broken up regardless of that, would be odd if the former was a lie.)

Also, in one of the labelnotes in the original post Eddie acknowledged that even then, merely saving a single long page wouldn't shut down the entire site, only someone repeatedly doing so:

A crash switches traffic to another server while the crashed server recovers. That part is okay-ish. Our capacity goes down for a little while, but we're not out of business. However, if there is a nimrod out there pounding the save key over and over on some behemoth page, we get in situation where all the servers are in restart mode and we are out of business. Pretty much until the nimrod grows a brain. We can't have this.

I still don't know what to make of the situation. Kory claims the message is supposed to just be a "suggestion" now, but between the wording making it sound like a pretty strong suggestion to the point of literally begging the reader to split it, still being in bright "danger" red, and (mostly) the lowering of the threshold to trigger it, it seems to have had the opposite effect where everyone on this thread is taking it as seriously as ever and rushing to split all the pages in the 400-500k range that have started triggering the warning. I'm not opposed to this - back when we had ways of measuring the size of pages other than whether they triggered the warning, we usually split pages once they hit 400k or so in order not to risk the dire consequences we feared would happen once they hit 500k - but I'm not sure it's what Kory or the administration had in mind, and it's worth noting that pages on other wikis seem to be allowed to grow significantly beyond the size that used to trigger a split, which is odd if the threshold is now based on things outside the wiki's control.

Maybe at 400k there can be a message, not in red, advising that the page might be slow-loading for people with slow internet connections, and then something closer to the current message at 500 or 600k? Idk, I'm just spitballing. I might end up starting a new thread on Wiki Talk to try and firm up a new policy or even just a motivating principle for this thread's regulars to align it better with reality, the administration's wishes, or at least wiki consensus.

kory Admin (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Admin
#3033: Dec 17th 2023 at 1:23:35 AM

Well right now it isn’t mandatory and we won’t do anything ourselves if users don’t split pages since it won’t break the database or be some huge detriment to the overall site, but perhaps you’re right and we should make it an official policy instead of a suggestion. But before we make it an official policy I wanted to do more testing to be sure 400KB was a good threshold for this purpose or if it should be raised or lowered further.

Edited by kory on Dec 17th 2023 at 1:24:36 AM

Now Monitoring Query Bugs and Query Wishlist
Malady (X-Troper)
#3034: Dec 17th 2023 at 5:37:25 AM

UsefulNotes.Restricted Rating

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Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#3035: Dec 17th 2023 at 5:42:18 AM

While other pages at Overly Long Pages still load for me without a delay, UsefulNotes.Restricted Rating takes me about 7 seconds to load even in edit mode. main-article seems to be eating 510435 bytes in HTML. It's also possible the server takes time to validate all links if they should be blue or red.

Edited by Amonimus on Dec 17th 2023 at 4:44:09 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#3036: Dec 17th 2023 at 5:42:57 AM

[up] Yeah, R Rating needs to be split ASAP.

AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#3037: Dec 17th 2023 at 5:53:01 AM

For American Music, I split off California, but I think I also wanna split off the "South" folder.

What should I call it? AmericanMusic.South? or AmericanMusic.American South? or maybe AmericanMusic.Southern States?

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Dec 17th 2023 at 10:08:40 PM

Malady (X-Troper)
#3038: Dec 17th 2023 at 6:31:39 AM

[up][up] - Split into film series vs. individual films?

  • Jump Street
  • Fifty Fifty
  • Alien
etc

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AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#3039: Dec 17th 2023 at 7:14:04 AM

Alright, my idea for splitting Awesome.Game Of Thrones follows the naming scheme of Funny.Game Of Thrones's split

Doing the math, I decided to split it as

Seasons 7 and Eight can stay on the page.

Does that sound good?

BigBadShadow25 With my last breath, I curse Zoidberg. from Basement at the Alamo (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Desperate
With my last breath, I curse Zoidberg.
#3040: Dec 17th 2023 at 2:55:48 PM
AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#3041: Dec 17th 2023 at 4:47:35 PM

[up][up][up] I'll try the film series split first.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Dec 17th 2023 at 8:47:59 PM

AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#3042: Dec 17th 2023 at 4:55:29 PM

Question though, will the Film Series split include remakes, reboots, and franchises? Like for example Aqua Teen Hunger Force movies?

Edit: Restricted Rating has been hard split! See Restricted Rating Film Series for Film Series with an R Rating.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Dec 17th 2023 at 9:43:58 PM

AudioSpeaks2 Since: Apr, 2022
#3043: Dec 17th 2023 at 5:48:36 PM

Ok, so even after removing around 32111 bytes from Restricted Rating, it's still kinda loading slowly for me.

Malady (X-Troper)
#3044: Dec 17th 2023 at 6:30:05 PM

I was thinking about splitting out adaptations too? The Film of the Book, but other than aligning to a trope, why?

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MyFinalEdits Delete message from Parts Unknown (Spin-off Series) Relationship Status: Cast away
Delete message
#3045: Dec 17th 2023 at 7:40:06 PM

Alright, like I promised here's a suggestion for the Zelda pages that got hit by the new threshold.

According to this online counter:

  • The A-to-E contents in the Ocarina of Time page weight 106265 characters.
  • The F-to-Q contents in the Ocarina of Time page weight 107534 characters.
  • The R-to-Z contents in the Ocarina of Time page weight 77892 characters.
  • The A-to-E contents in the Majora's Mask page weight 94944 characters.
  • The F-to-Q contents in the Majora's Mask page weight 88826 characters.
  • The R-to-Z contents in the Majora's Mask page weight 60188 characters.
  • The A-to-E contents in The Wind Waker page weight 95092 characters.
  • The F-to-M contents in The Wind Waker page weight 97036 characters.
  • The N-to-Z contents in The Wind Waker page weight 92673 characters.

Save for the first two, the would-be subpages for the affected Zelda articles have fewer than 10000 characters. So the question I have is: Is it best to wait until a official threshold is established, or can these pages be split right now?

135 -> 180 -> 273 -> 191 -> 188 -> 230 -> 300 -> 311
Malady (X-Troper)
#3047: Dec 17th 2023 at 10:01:45 PM

Like, so of the films are actually films of books instead of being original stories. Not sure if it's an important split, but at least it's more informative about the film than just splitting by name.

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rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#3048: Dec 18th 2023 at 12:04:56 AM

@Dumbing Of Age: We might as well go with those splits.

VideoGame.The Legend Of Zelda Tears Of The Kingdom is giving the warning.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#3049: Dec 18th 2023 at 1:22:26 AM

I'm not sure where to write this, but MCU: Loki Laufeyson is giving a "too long warning" and should be split. There are two ways it can be done:

  • Divide tropes by alphabet: keep say, A-I on the current page and move J-Z to a new page
  • Divide tropes by appearance: keep tropes from Thor and Avengers on the current page and move tropes from the Dark World on to a new page
I'm strongly in favor of the second option, because tropes from Thor and Avengers are shared by the Sacred Timeline character and the new L1130 character, and this way it is easier to provide a meaningful reference from the L1130 page.

I can do the split regardless of which option is chosen.

Edit: I also asked in this thread.

Edited by Asherinka on Dec 18th 2023 at 1:23:50 AM

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
MummyGaGa Mermaid Sparkla from A magical realm Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Mermaid Sparkla
#3050: Dec 18th 2023 at 6:27:57 AM

I just got the Too Long warning for the YMMV page for Genshin Impact.

BTW, please call me Jake.

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