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Faramir I really need a job... from Just before a Deadline. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
I really need a job...
#1: Nov 22nd 2010 at 10:27:49 PM

Hi. I make Xawu the comic.

In every other review people have complained they don't know what's going on, or told me that I should think of the why-s and how-s of the story.

I've already done a LOT of world-building, I've planned pretty far ahead, and I know the "why, how, and when" of everything so far.

How can I show my work (which includes maps, portals, cultures, and more) without throwing in an info-dump?

I want the story to get a more-or-less real-life feel to it, and I've been told it does, but only one out of like.. ten people thinks that. The rest are just confused.

How can I make things more understandable? Should I, at all, or should I keep going the Jigsaw Plot route?

edited 22nd Nov '10 10:29:27 PM by Faramir

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you can't sell him fish anymore.
wellyea Since: Dec, 1969
#2: Nov 22nd 2010 at 10:41:13 PM

I stopped reading like 14 pages in...what the hell did I just read? I have zero idea whats going on. Honestly I have nothing to go on to even give you advice. Could you sum it up or something?

The only thing I can say for sure is you need to draw it. It seems like everything is happening of screen and all I ever see is this things face. Also, characters are being introduced by name and I have no clue who or what they are.

I don't get it. sorry man

GenericGuy Since: May, 2010
#3: Nov 22nd 2010 at 10:45:11 PM

You could always make a wiki or frequently asked question page on you site that can give background and explain the setting.

"If you make people think they’re thinking, they’ll love you; but if you really make them think, they’ll hate you." —Don Marquis
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#4: Nov 22nd 2010 at 10:58:48 PM

Remember that Reality Is Unrealistic. As someone in this very forum once said to me, "unlike real life, fiction has to make sense". So, sometimes, you may need to throw in an Exposition Fairy or Mr. Exposition to make sure the audience can keep up. Also, don't be afraid to allow your protagonist to have a "Eureka" moment or two and notice a detail that no real-life person would figure out.

I had/have a similar problem in my own work, so I understand where you're coming from.

Faramir I really need a job... from Just before a Deadline. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
I really need a job...
#5: Nov 23rd 2010 at 2:11:48 AM

@wellyea: This is exactly my problem. People don't get it... and I've been told that whatever the reader imagines is always gonna be 20 times worse/scarier/more awesome/weirder than anything I draw, most of the off-screen stuff was an experiment on that. Half of this whole comic is an experiment in one way or another.

The comic itself is an experiment to see if I can stick to a schedule, the princess' bright thought and speech bubbles were an experiment to see if attention-grabbing bubbles fit with a supposedly attention-grabbing character. Starting late was an experiment with Howard Tayler's "in late out early" rule. The lack of exposition was an experiment to see if people liked it better without Maid and Butler dialogue, and over-exposition.

The results are "I can't please everyone because 3-to-10 people actually like it this way, but everyone else doesn't get it". I really suck at giving people what they want.

New comic is up.

I thought about making an FAQ section, but my guess is, that'll be a big on-going project, and I have to focus on making my buffer big before starting it.

My thing against expository characters is that, if you were showing a story set in the real world, you wouldn't put up an infodump, or a Mister Exposition to explain away internet, or TV, or electric guitars, would you?

I'm trying to make it look as if this world is old.

Lots of stuff has happened in this world, but I don't want to write a history book. I want to write a webcomic. A story.

I'm trying to show that these people have lived in this world for long enough to know a lot of stuff the reader doesn't. They have all (exept for Rikard, my soon-to-be Watson if worst comes to worst) been exposed to tons of different cultures since they were young, and they all find things that the reader might find bizzare, normal. My problem is, as illustrated beautifully by wellyea, people don't get it.

I'm also trying(and failing) to make a Jigsaw Plot, or something that has the readers thinking and trying to figure out what happened here, and what happened there.

Since it's hard to understand, I'll give out some background.

Beware, Wall of Text Ahead.

Faren was framed for murder by the king (his father's) councilor. He is also a prince, and he is also a ship's navigator and an amateur cartographer.

Farrell is Faren's brother (something heavily hinted at by the fact that they both have the exact same hue of purple and lettering in their voices). He is a warrior prince. He's been in the military since the day he was old enough to join the military (contrast Faren, who entered because he was told and left the moment he was allowed to)

The princess is the youngest of her family. She has one sister and two brothers.

The girl in strip #27 is Faren's fianceé, they were in a Perfectly Arranged Marriage with eachother, but now that he's dishonored and exiled, her father wants her to marry some duke.

Hori is an Astarif, when I do a Creation Myth flashback (someday, between strip 50 and 200) I will show that in the beginning there were entities that caused chaos and war between each-other, then out of their ashes and energy, the Astarif sprang up. Beings of neutrality who tried to keep the balance. They decided that they would focus the gods/beings/whatever-you-want-to-call-them on one task. This would stop the wars because they would be too busy taking care of their ant-farm, world. Hori is the only astarif that didn't think the creatures that were created by...everyone there really... were inferior in any way, and decided to make friends with them. Because instead of True Neutral, Hori leans toward the Chaotic Good side of things, this ended up costing her (yes, it's actually a her, that's ALSO supposed to be a big reveal) a lot. Hori lost her voice when she lost a bet with a pufkash about 80 years ago (she's hundreds of years old, and believes that Living Forever Is Awesome). She is also a long-time friend of the current Elven King. She doesn't know how long she's been gone (the aforementioned 80 years). Another interesting thing is that astarif love neutrality (with their motto being "don't interfere unless they're bothering us") and they are also lovers of routine and peace. Hori actually likes to "Mix it up a bit". The "Job" she was fired off of, was finding other astarif (or 2nd generation astarif like her) who are bold, weird, or innovative enough, to cause a big change in the world. She gets mad at them for firing her because they never bothered to check for themselves (believing that she was one in a million) and she wasn't reporting any of them, thereby avoiding their capture. The reason sometimes it looks like she wants adventure, and sometimes it looks like she doesn't is that while she likes to "mix it up", her instincts still tell her adventure is bad, so she has mixed feelings about it all the time. But she's tired of the monotony of the nothing, and the higher beings are tired of her constant complaining about the monotony, so they fired her.

Rikard is a dwarf who wants to explore magic as another branch of science, not believing in Don't Think, Feel.

The bartender is a hobgoblin, actually staying true to the whole "friendlier" thing. Their world sucks, the whole Here Be Dragons thing is more or less guilty, so they're found in every continent in the world, except their own.

The shadow is from the other side of the world.

The world is flat, more or less, but it has two sides. The borders are surrounded with portals so that if you jump off one side, you land in the exact opposite of the same side (it's hard to explain without visual aids). The bottom part of the world (remember it's like a flat disc... with a hole through the middle) is covered in World in the Sky, which are pieces of land that are sucked in through the hole in the middle and spit out the other side, until they crash in the border of the world, so that over millions of years they appear on the other side again. The thickness of the world is more or less the same as the diameter of the earth.

This means that the gravity is more or less the same, but the surface area is a lot more, thereby justifying why all land hasn't been discovered yet, even though they're at 1890s-to-1930s depending-on-the-region level of technology. With a little Magitech thrown in by some dwarves that think like Rikard.

The setting in strip 25 is a lookout place where some military members (who either are'nt suited for battle, are waiting for paperwork of some kind, or actually like staring out in the open mountains waiting for something suspicious to come near.) look-out for any enemy tanks. It is the start of something like a cold war between several countries.

Litien is the capital city of... you guessed it, the country Farrell and Faren are princes of.

Their father isn't actually dumb, he's just susceptible to magic.

The moon works as a kind of "cristal ball" for the higher beings, meaning that they see what's going on through it. Unless they decide to manifest themselves personally, or make a new one soon to be destroyed.

One of my biggest problems is that I don't know how to do a flashback well.

I'll come back later with more information about it, if people still don't get it.

edited 23rd Nov '10 11:33:01 PM by Faramir

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you can't sell him fish anymore.
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#6: Nov 23rd 2010 at 7:17:17 AM

Here are some comments

  • The bit about Asterifis being .7 meters and grey seemed pretty out of place. Perhaps you could find a better way to work it in, if that information is actually necessary. We already know that Hori is an Asterif, although it's not clear before that whether Asterifs are a race or profession or what.

  • Faren and Farell's names are too similar. I got really confused by that.

  • I think you should put in more exposition through narration instead of dialogues. For example, in a comic like #27, it might be nice to include a box explaining who the characters are, since it's hard to figure out otherwise.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
Faramir I really need a job... from Just before a Deadline. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
I really need a job...
#7: Nov 23rd 2010 at 11:39:56 PM

[up] It's important to say they're gray because Hori's deviation from the standard True Neutral alignment is represented in her fur color. In her backstory, she was thrown in the empty for about 80 years, to try to break her, turn her submissive, etc. This has dulled her once bright orange color to a duller brown. If she ever ends up having a mental breakdown (which, the more I explore her, the more I think is going to happen in the future), she might suddenly turn bright orange/red again and then go gray for a while. The height is another thing that matters, but I guess I can Retcon it into "really little" or something like that. Most astarif are small because they don't want to interfere with anything. Hori doesn't care if she interferes, and sometimes actively pursues it.

I'm going to Retcon some dialogue mistakes when I reach strip 60 in my buffer, I've only fixed typos so far.

I decided that between strip 60 and strip 120, I will have an Exposition Break somehow, to try and fill in some blanks.

Aren't there any ideas about how to put more exposition in though? I'm trying to use narration boxes as sparingly as possible, and I thought that In the aforementioned 60-strip space, I would put a story set in a school, in this world, where kids are doing projects about Astarif and history. Putting up a frame-story for the exposition, if you will.

Any other coments, ideas, etc? I've started to use a couple more narration boxes, but they wont be seen until like, January (Buffer!).

edited 24th Nov '10 10:12:04 PM by Faramir

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you can't sell him fish anymore.
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#8: Nov 23rd 2010 at 11:59:15 PM

Find a convenient break point- such as at the end of a story arc, or after a cliffhanger. Have some of your characters walk onto screen in a FAQ-like section, where they explain some of the concepts in the story. Like in Flipside.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
wellyea Since: Dec, 1969
#9: Nov 24th 2010 at 3:22:32 AM

If you want to tell a story without showing anything write a radio drama. If you want to do a comic book, do a comic book. I can't tell who's talking and it's confusing.

I really think you should stop doing this straight panel style. Comic panels need more diversity.

I reread it up to current and it makes more sense on a second read.

Someone is trying to take over the kingdom using obvious tricks everyone but the king (who's under a spell) can see.

That girl loves the prince framed for murder

The main character is a asterif that for some reason can't talk (I couldn't figure that part out)

It's not to confusing and I realise it just started but it need some kind of punch, action or something, right now it just seems kinda boring. I think you need more panels per page and to stick with a character for a bit longer to get that effect.

other than that there are a few typos. how do you mispell "soon" man? Oh and you should switch "Giant bar" to "Giant's bar" I didn't get it at first, that should help a bit

edited 24th Nov '10 3:23:50 AM by wellyea

Faramir I really need a job... from Just before a Deadline. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
I really need a job...
#10: Nov 24th 2010 at 4:59:25 AM

"Soone" is the name of the character that Tyrus was talking to through the radio, not a typo of "soon". As is shown by the capitalization of the word, and the first speech bubble, in which Tyrus says "Hey Soone, you copy?".

The whole POINT of the speech bubbles with different colors and fonts is that you can tell who's talking without seeing them. At the time, I hadn't finished designing the characters (and I recognize it was incredibly dumb of me to start the comic so early), but I wanted to start it anyway, so I showed who's talking by the speech-bubbles, that way you know. Or should know... I doubtlessly need help getting my info across without doing Expospeak. I've already started to plan the "exposition break" part, if worst comes to worst.

Also, I was trying to decide whether or not to make the comics longer. Your vote has made the choice, starting January (or February, depending on how long the buffer lasts) I'll have longer comics.

Every little word in the comic (starting from around #19 anyway) is meticulously planned to tell the reader something about the character, the setting, the story, or to make a joke. I just need analytical readers with enough free time to realize all the work that went into it.

Speaking of exposition, Should I use the Alt Text for it? I've just been using it for little jokes here and there so, maybe it'll be a better use for it to make it exposition.

edited 24th Nov '10 5:14:35 AM by Faramir

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you can't sell him fish anymore.
Ettina Since: Apr, 2009
#11: Nov 24th 2010 at 7:47:33 AM

Yeah, alt text might work. But some people might not think to check it out.

If I'm asking for advice on a story idea, don't tell me it can't be done.
Mammalsauce Since: Mar, 2010
#12: Nov 24th 2010 at 3:10:00 PM

^^ Cygan Angel: I strongly disagree. That's the absolute worst kind of info-dumping and there's no way I could take anything seriously if it tried that.

CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#13: Nov 24th 2010 at 5:36:11 PM

I never said it was a good option. Jut one of the options available.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
OOZE Don't feed the plants! from Transsexual,Transylvania Since: Dec, 1969
Don't feed the plants!
#14: Nov 24th 2010 at 6:02:45 PM

See, I have a bunch of flashbacks and in one of them the main character's father explains the darker parts of the setting to the main character when he's young, sort of invoking a Does This Remind You of Anything? with The Talk.

I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene. Oh don't you see, finally I'll be, somewhere that's green...
Faramir I really need a job... from Just before a Deadline. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
I really need a job...
#15: Nov 24th 2010 at 10:06:05 PM

I'm not good enough of a creator (evidently) to pull off a flashback effectively. I've already shown others an idea for a flashback, and no one either liked it, got it, or thought it was a good idea.

Something that's been driving me nuts here is that this guy (read the last posts) liked it, so it shows that some people get it, but everyone else didn't.

How can I widen the amount of people that get it? If you see strips 25-onwards, those are all trying to be a bit expository. The first strip I drew to be #25 is the current strip #33 (not yet published) because I realized I needed to give the readers some context. The new comic gives up a lot of info, any comments on that? or how to work in some more info into dialogue without making it sound forced and expository?

Is it working? Is ANYONE getting the story more and more as it goes on?

Is Tyrus' story obvious? (I think it's obvious that he's an elven military recently-promoted-General who's been told to find the princess, but if there were people who didn't figure out the princess was INSIDE the bag, I probably have a standard of "obvious" too high.)

edited 25th Nov '10 5:51:47 AM by Faramir

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you can't sell him fish anymore.
wellyea Since: Dec, 1969
#16: Nov 25th 2010 at 10:55:14 AM

Why don't you stick with one character for longer than one strip?

I have no idea who these people are. Who are these guys in the car?

I think you're making this a crap ton more confusing than it needs to be. Though honestly I just don't think this is my kind of story. I'll check back on it in a few months and see if that changed.

edited 25th Nov '10 11:00:12 AM by wellyea

Faramir I really need a job... from Just before a Deadline. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
I really need a job...
#17: Nov 25th 2010 at 11:12:02 PM

[up]Is it really that hard to pay attention to the speech bubbles? Seriously, is it that hard? Font and lettering should tell you (if you paid attention.) that Farrell is somehow related to Faren (they're brothers), and it should also tell you that "those guys in the car" are Farrell and some random dwarf who gave him a ride. Calling back to THREE STRIPS AGO, when "someone" told Farrell to "hitch with a dwarf, you'll get there tonight with luck" in response to him saying "I'm heading out. It IS a ten day walk."

Whatever happened to drawing conclusions?

Tropers are smart enough to draw conclusions based on every little detail there is. This is why I came to all of you for help, instead of just asking strangers on the street, you're Tropers! You visit the TVtropes Forum!You HAVE braincells to rub together, you ARE smart enough to get this. There are hundreds of thousands of tropes, examples, Character Sheets, Playing With pages, Troper Tales, crowning moments of something, forum threads, don't forget the Sugar Wiki and Darth Wiki. The fact that you are here, saying something, tells me that you've contributed to at least one entry in that wide variety of things, you should be able to understand tropes.

Prove it!

(By telling me how I can make it clearer.)

edited 26th Nov '10 2:40:13 PM by Faramir

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you can't sell him fish anymore.
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#18: Nov 25th 2010 at 11:26:44 PM

^ Actually, I didn't notice any of the stuff you just mentioned. I did figure out that it was Farell, but only because he referred to Faren as a brother.

Also, what is shown in the first and last panels of #9? I can't figure it out at all. There's just a solid blue background and what looks like a shelf or something.

edited 25th Nov '10 11:42:19 PM by storyyeller

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
Faramir I really need a job... from Just before a Deadline. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
I really need a job...
#19: Nov 26th 2010 at 2:09:13 PM

That's Tyrus' house, he's looking for some things to prepare and find the princess. I admit that is one of my least explicit strips, I'm gonna make better ones when I'm somewhat farther into the story.

edited 26th Nov '10 2:13:46 PM by Faramir

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you can't sell him fish anymore.
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#20: Nov 26th 2010 at 4:17:41 PM

Viewers Are Geniuses may be the driving force, but a lack of ability to pace or keep things understandable for the masses is a sign of poor storytelling.

Don't try and praise us and expect more from us. You are the one lacking here.

Read my stories!
Faramir I really need a job... from Just before a Deadline. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
I really need a job...
#21: Nov 26th 2010 at 8:26:34 PM

Should I assume that Viewers Are Morons then? Grab them by the hand and feed everything to them on a silver plate? The Viewers Are Geniuses page has plenty of popular webcomics in its examples, so this probably isn't a bad thing right?..

...Right?

edited 26th Nov '10 11:08:01 PM by Faramir

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you can't sell him fish anymore.
BaleFire Since: Dec, 2009
#22: Nov 26th 2010 at 11:07:16 PM

Not to sound like a jerk, but that would probably help. It's always better to underestimate people in stuff like this than overestimate them. With the former the worst you'll get is some annoyance and some comments on how the comic is talking down to them. With the latter you have an audience who has no clue what is going on and is completly lost. Balance is best, but if you really can't achieve that, then underestimating people is better than overestimating.

Having read through the first fifteen comics, my foremost suggestion beyond that would be stop having so many characters talk off panel. The coloured speech balloons help, but with so many characters introduced so quickly, people don't get a chance to take in each one and recognise them before things have moved on. The rapid changing of perspective is also something I would advise against doing. Find a character, stick with him for at least twenty strips, and then maybe move on.

That's my take on everything.

Dreamkeepers Prelude, check it out!
Faramir I really need a job... from Just before a Deadline. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
I really need a job...
#23: Nov 26th 2010 at 11:32:59 PM

Talking about sticking with characters, since that seems to be one of my biggest problems, does anyone think it's a good idea to swap between two characters for twenty strips (ten each), or should I stick to one character for ten then stick with another one for the remaining ten? I'm trying to give a sense that it's a world, and the main plot isn't the only thing happening.

Hell, I haven't even showed the main plot so far.

Right now, I'm swapping between Farrell/Caitie(yes that is her name, strip 30)/Tyrus.

This rotation goes on until strips 34-35, depending on when I come back to Hori. Should I just push the current strips 36-to-50 to 50-to-74, and stay with these three characters for the rest of the chapter?

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you can't sell him fish anymore.
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#24: Nov 27th 2010 at 6:22:29 AM

If you must rotate, than my advice is stick with them for a longer period of time.

Read my stories!
Faramir I really need a job... from Just before a Deadline. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
I really need a job...
#25: Nov 28th 2010 at 11:10:34 PM

New comic's up.

So, to recap, "Stay with characters long enough for readers to get to know them", "Don't be afraid to use expository characters", "Make the strips longer", " Underestimate your readers until you know more-or-less who they are", and "try out flashbacks".

Any strange and daring ideas?

I've been thinking (since I'm reading The Hobbit now) to do an in-world parody equivalent called "The Astarif" that could show Hori's backstory. I have to make it less of a parody since Hori's story isn't all that much like Bilbo's, but it could have some Shout-Out parts.

Comments?

edited 28th Nov '10 11:51:41 PM by Faramir

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you can't sell him fish anymore.
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