Rebuild of Evangelion

Not really, no. The corrupted Greater Grail is kinda intelligent to an extent, since the corruption is due to having absorbed Angra Mainyu, the Avenger of the Third Fuyuki Holy Grail War, who thus became kind of a driving will and intellect behind the Grail; and the corruption is because Angra Mainyu is the embodiment of "all the world's evils" turned from merely metaphorical to literal by the Greater Grail's power when he was absorbed, which accidentally led to the Grail itself becoming tainted with the same evil as well. If it wasn't intelligent, it wouldn't have actually bothered to attempt manipulating Kiritsugu in Fate/Zero, as it wouldn't be even capable of such a thing; the Greater Grail was solely intended to serve as a literal wish-granting device of supposedly (but not truly) "omnipotent" capability, with the primary creators (the Einzbern family) hoping to use it to recover the lost full formula of the Heaven's Feel True Magic (they only have fragments of it, which they used in the Holy Grail for the purpose of summoning Servants).

Said turning of Kiritsugu's ideals against him wouldn't have happened if the corrupted Greater Grail wasn't actively trying to tempt him with that illusion — which, again, wouldn't be possible if it wasn't intelligent and "aware" on some level.

Edited by MarqFJA on Aug 13th 2019 at 8:00:41 PM

All the Corrupted Grail did was have Angra Mainyu in the form of his wife and daughter show him what his wish entails before it could be granted. The whole point is that his ideal was always childish and delusional because he never grew up.

When someone who actually has an idea of what their ideal is, which we see with Shiro in Apocrypha, which is to utilize the Third Magic on a global scale, because he understands what the details of his wish is, the Grail was capable of making it a reality.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Aug 13th 2019 at 10:31:18 AM

Technically, the Grail is conscious to a degree since it was made by using the spirit of Justeaze von Einzbern as its core. Aside from that, Kiritsugu was damned because he could not understand the fact that conflict is almost innate to humanity as a whole, so trying to get rid of evil is tantamount to eliminating all of mankind. Much like Saber, he was putting his faith on something he did not fully understood and paid the price for it.

An that's in a world where the Grail doesn't exist solely to screw everyone over, like it does in the Prototype verse where it always exists to summon an Evil to destroy all humanity.

Is there some reason this discussion is not being held in, say, the Type-Moon discussion thread?

Except Avenger was apparently not summoned in Fate/Apocrypha at all (IIRC the divergence is the summoning of Amakusa as a Ruler and Darnic's plot to steal the Fuyuki Holy Grail and flee to Romania), and thus the Holy Grail is not corrupted in that world.

This is off topic and it doesnt have the excuse the Lindsay Ellis thread has.

Yeah, take it to a Type Moon or Fate thread. This is for Mr. Anno's wild ride.

The official release date of the final movie has been announced as June 2020.

At least this time the preview isn't an x-ray of a piano being played.

I just expect the movie to be about an hour of every person on the planet kicking Shinji while he's down.

With the ending credits explaining why this is justified.

You know, by this point I have half-resigned myself that Rebuild!Shinji can have no satisfactory happy ending. Not after all he has done.

Hell, if they wanted to give him a shot at redemption that doesn't feel contrived, the writers would have to do it in a Super Robot Wars game, and even then they would probably have him appear after being imprisoned for centuries, if not thousands of years.

So Shinji runs into Getter Emperor? Only thing I can think of.

Maybe with the presence of Simon, he and the Dai-gurren brigade are the only ones I can imagine could give him the time of the day.

That said, he could also borrow a bit of Illidan's characterization on his relation to the universe and status as a tool of destruction.

I just don't know what Anno was thinking.

Where does Shinji go from here? He's literally done something so horrible that no amount of guilt or attempts to make amends will fix it. There's literally nothing Shinji can do to redeem himself and not come off as an Ass Pull.

Not that I expect that to happen. Anno doesn't seem like the type. It feels like after years of people thinking if Shinji just acted like a man and was awesome, things would be better Anno decided to show them how wrong that is.

And he succeeded. If he wanted to convince us that all Shinji does is destroy everything and hurt people, even if he doesn't want to, then that's what he's done.

Hell, I firmly believe that if anyone tries to kill him, that will somehow make thing worse too.

I think by this point the most logical thing that can happen is that Shinji is ultimately trapped inside Eva-01 to mirror Yui's fate in EoE, with the twist that he's doing so to act as mankind's guardian for all eternity.

It's still a sucky ending, but at least it's dignified.

Edit:

And yes, the reason that, while I accept 3.33, I still resent it is because Anno decided that lifting the middle finger to the otaku audience was his priority.

I wouldn't be surprised if the reason why it took so long to make 3.00 + 1.00 is because Anno eventually regretted putting Shinji inside an inescapeable hole.

Edited by raziel365 on Nov 24th 2019 at 7:10:23 AM

Such is the problem when you make story decisions based more on themes rather than coherence, as much as the Eva fanbase tends to disagree. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the entire reason Anno fell into a depression again following 3.33 is because he didn't realize until after the film was finished that me may have made a mistake in doing that.

For that matter, the whole theme of the third film to me falls flat when other works, such as Madoka Magica Rebellion, Heaven's Feel, and Weathering With You have done similar things in terms of having a message about consequences of one's actions, whether one's loved one is more important than the world, etc, only in a much more balanced manner and in ways that don't sacrifice logic and coherent plot development purely for the sake of a "theme".

Edited by LDragon2 on Nov 25th 2019 at 3:13:46 AM

I would think the 2011 earthquake is a bigger reason as to why Anno fell into depression again.

Mind you, what I have to give credit to 3,33 was in not pulling its punches on how toxic and destructive is the idea of putting an individual over the world. Obviously it could have been done better but still.

I thought it did it just fine. Even if it layed it on a tad much.

And funnily enough that first example I've seen loads of people complain about that particular even in Madoka.

Madoka was worse because it was also totally unnecessary.

At least the person Shinji said FUCK THE WORLD to save needed the help.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Nov 25th 2019 at 6:04:13 AM

Tbf the luttle shits would keep trying to overthrow the current system because Kyubey and their ilk don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and Homura told then about the Witch system.

I agree that Shinjis was needed to save someone, and unlike with Meguca he couldn't know that his attempt would fail and just get a lot of people killed and worse.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 25th 2019 at 3:39:55 AM

I just think that Madoka Rebellion tackled the whole idea in a much more balanced manner, in that it showed both sides of why such a decision is justified and unjustified at the same time, letting the viewer decide as to where they stand on the issue, whereas 3.33 is way too overly harsh and pretty much shoves its intended message down the throats of the viewers.

Considering how its made clear what Homuras done hasn't really made her or anyone else happy in the end? Yeah no they're pretty clear it's unjustified.

It's a bad idea from get go, but it wouldn't have become a thing if she hadn't stated "Witches be Bitches" in front of the evil sociopathic hivemind.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 26th 2019 at 12:34:10 PM

Everyone else looked happy at the end to me...except Homu. And even then she at least made peace with it at the end, which I think makes a far more satisfying end to the series.