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(Mod edit to add a courtesy link to El Goonish Shive.)


Yay! Its back again! I stagger my reading of it to Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday cause there aren't enough good webcomics on those days, so I am not the best person to lead a real time discussion, but it really needs a thread. So in Monday's we see the mysterious return of the dark figure. (linky)

Who is starting to sound really, really desperate.

Also, is it just the art upgrade, or does Ellen's green ray seem more... jeeze, what is a same word to use? Powerful? More powerful then usual?

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Oct 10th 2025 at 12:46:21 PM

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#16026: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:07:30 PM

It's what makes it sexual harassment, which again, I have conceded is obviously not okay.

IF ANYTHING, Tedd and Sarah are in the wrong for not calling him out for sexual harassment and getting him kicked out of the store.

And no, their wrongness in this regard does not mitigate the wrongness of the sexual harasser, it doesn't work like that.

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:07:59 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

PapercutChainsaw Since: Jul, 2010
#16027: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:07:35 PM

...Can we just say that different people have different levels of tolerance as to what's okay for them and what isn't? Sarah was asserting what isn't okay by her, and that his behaviour was making her uncomfortable, but other women may have other opinions. Some women (for example Susan) don't enjoy being flirted with at all, in any context, and that's not unreasonable as long as they establish those boundaries politely. Others would see Larry's behaviour as acceptable or even flattering.

Basically, there's no universal standard as to what is and isn't okay when it comes to flirting, but there are things that guys can consider doing to minimise the chances of being offensive. And this includes, as has already been said, getting to know the person before you start making moves.

3DS Friend Code: 0018-0767-4231
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#16028: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:09:13 PM

@16024: That's the thing Tomu. You shouldn't have to deal with it in any random social scenario. Also you should probably not go with the nightclubs and nerds bit, that point isn't getting any better by you elaborating and you should probably pick your words more carefully.

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:10:40 PM by Wildcard

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#16029: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:09:45 PM

And that, Chainsaw, is why Larry's behavior isn't unacceptable (well, excluding the aforementioned sexual harassment point) up to the point where he's rejected, because the behavior is the mechanism whereby an individuals limits are communicated.

You can't say "well, everyone has a different threshold, so therefore you should always be expected to operate at the lowest threshold." Well, you can, but it's an ineffective mechanism for human communication.

[up] I stand by my nightclubs commentary until someone's given me an explanation for why it's HORRIFYINGLY RACIST or whatever. And again, I disagree: having to deal with having to say no is just one of the costs of a society that values the ability to communicate with sincerity. I shouldn't have to say no twice and I shouldn't have to fear saying no. But I should have to say no when I want to say no. That's how sincere communication works.

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:11:32 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

nomuru2d Gamer-turning-maker from Port Saint Lucie, FL Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
Gamer-turning-maker
#16030: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:10:38 PM

Oh my god, this fucking thread... -_-

Long live Cinematech. FC:0259-0435-4987
Dopants Breathe. Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#16032: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:11:51 PM

@nomuru2d: You can stop reading any time if it bothers you that much.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#16033: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:12:19 PM

Some people consider it acceptable to denigrate others based on race, religion, sex, or other such differences. Is that part of the "social contract" as well?

Just because somebody thinks that behaving in a certain way is acceptable doesn't mean the rest of us have an obligation to put up with them. In fact, educating people on what kind of behaviors are not acceptable are a key point of civil rights movements.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#16034: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:13:01 PM

Also, just to be clear:

In Larry's engagement with Tedd, Tedd was repeatedly "saying no." Larry was not acting in a sincere manner in that circumstance, unless he's just ASTOUNDINGLY naive. But that naivete is why it's important to actually SAY no.

If there are issues with saying no, the problem is with the issues with saying no, not that you need to say no.

[up] That falls under similar reasoning as sexual harassment. We make keyed exceptions to the "sincere communication" rule. I'm just not convinced "guys shouldn't hit on women outside the context of obvious mating grounds" is a particularly good exception we want to make.

Again, this is in part due to a successful pairing in previous experience.

And again, I do not defend Larry's methodology at any level. He's very derpy in his approach. So for the inevitable replies, please do not make arguments that hinge on his approach. If you can't divorce the approach with the path, then let's just drop it. No one has made a convincing argument one way or the other, I have a paper to write, etc.

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:17:14 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

KylerThatch literary masochist Since: Jan, 2001
literary masochist
#16035: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:16:00 PM

I actually think people are arguing past each other at this point. Like Tomu's scenario is some person going "I like you, wanna go out with me?" and (almost) everyone else's is "hey there, hotstuff, wanna bang?"

This "faculty lot" you speak of sounds like a place of great power...
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#16036: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:16:25 PM

"HORRIFYINGLY RACIST"

@Tomu: WTF?

Anyway your still not getting it. We have been saying from the beginning this is about time and place. Your points about sincere communication don't really enter into it. You shouldn't tell everyone you find attractive in a casual social situation "I think your very sexually attractive" and you shouldn't be dealing with it on your side either.

Yes you did have a successful pairing. Did it start with you watching that movie in a shop or whatever and you using some random pickup line like Larry did without knowing anything else about her?

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:18:58 PM by Wildcard

KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#16037: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:16:47 PM

Tomu: Ok, so if you're relying on a prior experience, could you elaborate on it for the rest of us?

EDIT: Oh, for fuck's sake. THE APPROACH IS THE PROBLEM YOU censored to avoid the inevitable ban that would result from sincerely communicating to Tomu what I think of his arguments

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:18:46 PM by KyleJacobs

nomuru2d Gamer-turning-maker from Port Saint Lucie, FL Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#16039: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:19:22 PM

"Horrifyingly racist" is just my way of saying I don't know what your problem with it is, and I assume it's somehow horrendously politically incorrect or something (it does use those who are physically incapable of dancing as a result of not having legs as a rhetorical device, so I could see how that would be considered offensive. I disagree obviously, which is why I used it as an example, but I can see why. But then again, maybe it's something entirely different).

[up][up] Then I don't have any disagreement? I find Larry's approach to be stupid. But his actions-that is, trying to hit on Sarah-aren't.

You're engaged in a different argument than I and the others.

Either that, or I still haven't made myself clear.

There is nothing inherently wrong with Larry's motive. How he goes about exercising that motive is problematic for a number of reasons (sexual harassment, being ineffective, being a distraction from the game, etc), but the motive "I want to hit on this girl because I find her attractive and we have a shared interest" is not, itself, problematic, nor is acting upon it as long as said actions aren't themselves problematic (such as for the reasons listed above).

That is the summation of my position. Please do not ascribe additional positions to me.

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:22:37 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#16040: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:20:26 PM

Tedd looked uncomfortable. Not once did he go "Please stop."

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#16041: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:20:57 PM

@nomuru2d: Ya know you can leave the thread or just post anything discussing the comic here right? No one is twisting your arm to read our responses or reply.

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:21:27 PM by Wildcard

MrMallard Since: Oct, 2010
#16042: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:21:04 PM

This is what I feel went down.

Larry was trying to be a flirt with his first line - his face highlights this. I read what he said as kinda sleazy, maybe with a wink at the end. Given his last match with Tedd, it's not unlikely that he was trying to flirt, and it would have led into his ego-centric attempt to impress Sarah like he did with Tedd.

But Sarah picked up that he was trying to flirt with her, based on that one sentence, and she wanted none of that. So yeah, she turned to him and asked "Are you hitting on me?", he got that deer-in-the-headlights look, and I assume that all but confirmed his intentions to Sarah.

I am on Sarah's side here. Larry came up and was going to talk his head off at her like he did with Tedd, Sarah heard his tone of voice and straight-up asked if he was going to be like that, and when he stumbled she told him not to talk to her like he did. He might have just seen her as a sex object, he might have just wanted a girlfriend to boost his own inflated ego, and rather than letting him go through the sleazy motions he would have gone through Sarah said no to being hit on. So I am entirely on Sarah's side here - if he hadn't been told not to hit on her, he would have done so and it would have been mad uncomfortable for Sarah.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#16043: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:24:00 PM

Once again, the problem wasn't that he's hitting on her, it's that he's doing it at the first point of contact. Larry has never spoken two words to Sarah. Literally the only thing he knows about her is that she's attractive, and that is sufficient enough information for him to make a pass at her. In doing so, he identifies himself as a creep who is only interested in Sarah's body.

It's not wrong for Larry to hit on Sarah, in and of itself. It's wrong for him to do so as the first point of contact, without having spent any time actually getting to know her first. In doing so, in effectively telling Sarah, "Your identity is irrelevant, you exist for the sole purpose of being a flesh toy," he has made her feel like an object. Sarah is here to play a card game, and by expressing to her, right before the match, that her only value as a human being is to be fucked, he has made the game less enjoyable to play for her.

If he had actually spent the time to get to know her and, therefore, was hitting on her based on the whole of her personality and not just how good she looks, it would be different; he would be soliciting a relationship based on the full impression of Sarah as a human being. As noted, racial or sexual denigration is unacceptable as part of the "social contract". People are not obligated to put up with being treated as subhuman by their peers. However, that is exactly what Larry has done, by expressing to Sarah that her body is the only thing of value that she has.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#16044: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:24:02 PM

Again, Tedd "said" no in a number of ways. Larry's problem there was not accepting no, either through malice or incompetence. I don't defend Larry in his encounter with Tedd. AS I SAID AT THE OUTSET OF THIS DISCUSSION, the key is in learning to accept no gracefully. Larry didn't with Tedd. Perhaps had Tedd VOCALIZED his no Larry would have, but Tedd was sufficiently obvious enough about his No that it's hard to defend Larry for not accepting it.

[up] I disagree that it's inherently problematic to hit on someone at point of first contact. If that is a root axiom of your argument, I won't be convinced by said argument.

I certainly agree that it's an ineffective technique on his part, but whether or not is philosophically objectionable is another issue altogether.

Although, come to think of it, I may come around yet. Perhaps hitting on someone on first contact should be considered a faux pax except in explicit circles wherein that's expected (e.g. Nightclubs). If we allow for hitting on someone upon REPEATED visits to, say, a card game, then the prohibiting on allowing hitting on someone upon an INITIAL visit is less onerous (and therefore more acceptable).

Hmmmmmmm...

Eh, okay. Even I only hitted on my now-ex AFTER she had already laughed at a joke I told at Anime club, and then ended up meeting her again in Japanese class.

Point conceded. Larry should wait until the second tournament to hit on Sarah.

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:28:43 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

MrMallard Since: Oct, 2010
#16045: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:26:53 PM

I don't quite agree with the whole "flesh toy" arguments, but he did start flirting with her with the very first thing he said to her, which indicates interest in her being a female rather than the person she is. No "how are you" or anything, a straight-up "so, do you play cards often?" with a smarmy grin and presumably smug tone of voice. That's rude.

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:27:34 PM by MrMallard

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#16046: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:27:40 PM

I disagree that it's inherently problematic to hit on someone at point of first contact. If that is a root axiom of your argument, I won't be convinced by said argument.

As do many guys, which is one of the main reasons why women don't engage in social events like Magic.

If you're ever wondering why, in games that are roughly 50/50 genderwise, you'll only find about two or three in a room full of dozens, it's because many women opt out of social scenarios where they know they're going to have to put up with this bullshit.

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:28:59 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#16047: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:29:32 PM

You'd better not be calling me a Mens Rights Activist! :P

Besides, I already changed my mind and conceded to your point, cut me some slack already!

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#16048: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:31:13 PM

Sorry, I posted that before the edit.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
MrMallard Since: Oct, 2010
#16049: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:31:15 PM

Honestly, anything to slow this thread down and stop this argument.

It looks like Larry took the hint at least - he's not going to be a condescending smarm-master when he actually plays against Sarah, it looks like. We'll find out in the next 3-4 hours.

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:31:57 PM by MrMallard

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#16050: Jul 23rd 2014 at 6:32:12 PM

I don't think the argument is asinine (EDIT: Wait, I could have sworn you called it asinine. CRAP!) It's a serious discussion about the role of people in social interactions. Some of the arguments are talking around each other, so you have a point there, and it's only loosely connected to EGS. But I don't think, for instance, it's a stupid thing to be talking about.

[up] I like the idea of him being apologetic and super embarrassed, Sarah feeling bad, and them eventually legitimately hitting it off, but I suspect that would send the wrong message.

Unless it turns into a "Friendzoned!" commentary that paints Larry as even MORE of a dick.

EDIT: Not to drag us back into the discussion but-<Is repeatedly shot>

edited 23rd Jul '14 6:47:23 PM by TheyCallMeTomu


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