El Goonish Shive

God of Awesome just gave the definition that most of the people I know nowadays use... but not everyone, and it might be regional (I realize part of the issue may be me growing up in a fairly insular area). But even then, most of the people I know using that definition are local and grew up where I now live, so I don't want to make any pronouncements as to what is "common" and what isn't.

For the issue of game design.... well, that's a great philosophical question. I guess I should put forward first and foremost that the philosophy Shive espouses is a fairly common one at major developers (while not necessarily stated as such, it is a guiding philosophy for Shigeru Miyamoto). That said, Lovecraftian is right in that it is not the only one that can produce a satisfying gaming experience. In fact, the argument flows that too slavish of a dedication to the "rule" that "gameplay = reward" results in too restrictive of game design, and it leads to less creativity in game development, not more. It's like any other creative endeavor - it helps to have rules to guide development, but always know when to break the rule in question.

My reading of Shive’s commentary is that he agrees with Lovecraftian here. Let’s look again:

By “most often,” Shive is referring to the focus of the majority of the game, not what an individual player might choose to focus on. He’s saying that requiring a boring mini game to get the economy started instead of a quest or something else that uses the core gameplay mechanics is detrimental.

...fair enough. I hadn't interpreted Shive's line like that, but it makes more sense from that point of view.

Mind you, what said also applies: knowing when to break a rule is also important. I've never played any of the Fable games, but if there's some thematic reason behind it, having the Player start their economy by having to take part in a minigame would make sense. If, say, the idea was to make the Player feel more like a part of the world by having them start from the place of a common person, to then rise to the level of a hero, that would make sense. But it really depends on what the game's going for.

When I was a teen, I was under the impression that "geek" tended to cover the strong and "unnatural" obsession for a subject, while "nerd" mostly covered the socially awkward/unpopular part. But then again, those terms were integrated recently, and I don't think there is straight french equivalent to them.

Also, I disagree slightly in The Lovecraftian analysis: friday comic introduced "the good" by showing her disdain for all thing nerdy, monday did more than plant some seed,it defused the whole situation with a "it's just a misunderstanding, let's clarify the terms".

I almost believed for one whole week-end that there was going to be some actual conflict, but no, problem solved.

Edited by jaff on Feb 25th 2020 at 5:01:14 AM

Comic Party 126

Express yourself.

This makes Shive look pretty out of touch to me.

Not he's not, it's the children who are wrong.

This also feels like a bit more low key whitewashing of the kind of person Diane is/was, by establishing that she - a recovering bully and former Alpha Bitch - was actually only dismissive of nerds before because she just assumed they were all horrible people.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 26th 2020 at 5:35:57 AM

Unless Diane/Shive has been living in a cave since the 90s, they should be well aware that the words nerd and geek don't really mean much in this day-in-age. Hell, you using them in a derogatory fashion nowadays is more likely to get yourself mocked for using such outdated and toothless insults.

Edited by Kaiseror on Feb 27th 2020 at 6:20:49 AM

Diane, I don't know about. Shive? I sometimes could be made to believe that he still lives in the cave, and just found a way to get some internet connection down there.

That said, I don't find Justin's explanation too wrong for my tastes. It's old and a bit out of touch, but it's also coming from a guy who likely grew up a nerd, and, given his backstory, was probably ostracized for it alongside all the other stuff that got him ostracized in the first place. From him, it makes sense.

Now, if the others back him up on this, that'll be another matter entirely.

This one. This one gets it.

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Feb 26th 2020 at 3:45:58 PM

Diane is right.

I'm honestly not sure if she's meant to be right. I legit have no idea if the direction this conversation is going in is meant to be "Diane misjudges the 'nerd' label" or if it's "Self-proclaimed nerds are too attached to their own victimization". I don't know. Because Diane is right.

In panel 7, Justin's like "Cool people HATE US AND PERSECUTE US for playing video games!" and then Diane's just like, "Cool people PLAY VIDEO GAMES. The f*ck are you smoking?" And Diane is right.

But I don't know if Diane's supposed to be right or if this is Strawman Has a Point. Shive has a history with Strawman Has a Point. That history's name, ironically, is Diane's identical relative Susan.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 27th 2020 at 1:15:30 PM

I think Kaiseror is right, and Shive is operating out of a somewhat out-of-date notion of what a nerd is and what their usual interactions with others are, which would indeed make Diane a case of Strawman Has a Point, even though, from the direction Shive seems to be approaching this, that's a point that I would normally not award her.

Like, there has been persecution of nerd people, video-game/tabletop RPG players especially. But that was a whole two decades ago at this point. Back then, and even in the early 2000s, the scene Shive is building would have been entirely valid, and I would defend Justin's point vehemently. Today, that's almost entirely out of touch with how things work, which kinda brings one around to Diane being right, despite Shive's narrative not having that intention.

So yeah, you're probably right about that.

For now I'm going to give Dan the benefit of doubt and assume he intends for Diane to be right and for Justin to realize his view of nerddom is antiquated.

@Medinoc: In-universe, antiquated view of nerddom would be a strange flaw for an actual nerdy teenager like justin to have, though.

Edited by jaff on Feb 27th 2020 at 4:21:19 AM

Being a nerd is a point of pride for Justin. Part of being a nerd is an especial enjoyment of things not considered "mainstream"—or at least, it used to be. If everyone likes the nerdy things, are they still nerdy? Answers may vary. I can understand if Justin doesn't want to give up the label just because the stuff he likes is popular now.

Anyway, you can practically hear the brakes squealing as the strip swerves into a new topic.

Edited by HeraldAlberich on Feb 27th 2020 at 12:23:21 PM

Did this webcomic always go on lengthy discussions about things that have nothing to do with the comic itself and I'm just now noticing or is this a more recent phenomenon?

Edited by Kaiseror on Feb 27th 2020 at 11:54:37 AM

Diane remains 100% right. Whoo! Go Diane! Stomp these nerds!

Recent. As in, it's been a thing for the last two or three years, but the comic has been around for long enough that "the last two or three years" can be considered recent.

And also somewhat annoying, in my opinion.

...can we get back to the fantastical things Dan knows are fantastical?

@Tobias Drake: you know, I really can't say if you're joking or not.

Also, That last page is a fascinating illustration of Webcomic Time, because during our character's last school year (when the comic started), there was no Mass effect, the Lords of the Ring trilogy wasn't finished yet, and Castlevania:symphony of the Night was still fresh and new.

And yes, probably for that reason (and maybe because the author has not put a foot in high school since then), Justin is wrong: because every thing he's citing is most definitely not unpopular anymore, not among the young crowd, at least.

Sci-fi is cool. Fantasy is cool. Video games are cool. Superheroes are cool. Anime are cool. And you'd have to both very shallow and very out of touch, as a kid nowaday, to consider them otherwise.

Now, back in my days, if you wanted an objectively lame and unpopular (but still known) hobbies? I'd say tabletop rpgs. Or programming. Or maths. Or Pokemon. But then my days were a few years ago already, and I acknowledge that this picture is probably not accurate anymore nowaday (at least tabletop rpg seem to progressively get out of the gettho, albeit I'd argue it's nowhere near the same level of popularity as everything else Shive mentionned). Also(but that might be a matter of geography, more than time) the level of loathing for people who practiced these unpopular activities was nowhere near the level depicted in american medias (although I did get punched a few times for being seen with incriminating evidence like Mt G cards, but those were isolated incidents, not permanent systemic bullying).

Finally, the idea that "nerdiness" is based on the "unhealthy" obsession with something mainstream is, in my opinion, bullshit. People can be obsessed with, say football (or any popular sport, really, but in europe it's mostly football), or popular music genres, to a point that would put most rpg fans to shame, and that is considered perfectly normal, and not nerdy at all.

So, Justin is the Straw Man Diane is "winning" against here, and I don't know wether that is voluntary or not, but I have the nagging suspicion that it is not.

Edited by jaff on Feb 28th 2020 at 4:35:13 AM

I'm being sincere, but the specific phrasing of "stomp those nerds" was deliberately absurd, given that the context of the conversation transpiring is Diane insisting that these people aren't nerds.

I am 100% on Alpha Bitch's side here and am having a blast watching her trash the whole concept of nerddom. The "nerd", as we know it today, is just a particular brand of persecution complex. The word is literally an insult, defined by the dictionary as

"an unstylish, unattractive, or socially inept person"

It literally means that you suck and people don't like being around you. That's what "nerd" means.

It's worn as a badge of honor by people who take pride in the idea that they're unique and special snowflakes that get shit on by the world at large for their intellectual or academic interests. "People don't like me because I'm a nerd." No, people don't like you because you never learned to use deodorant or talk about things other than your hobby, and might also have a bit of an attitude problem. YOU don't like people who only want to talk to you about football, yet you see other people shutting down your vocal Star Wars diatribes as some unique social response to "nerdy interests".

Nobody likes a person whose personality is defined by a single interest, nor do people want to have prolonged conversations about interest that they don't share. It doesn't matter if that interest is My Little Pony or baking cookies or owning lots of tiny dogs. If that's all you have to offer to a conversation, people get sick of you very quickly. But nerds insist that this is a special form of persecution that they and only they suffer, because people who proudly wave the "nerd" banner tend to be very myopic.

For a bit of levity, see also:

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 28th 2020 at 9:12:10 AM

I think you do have a point, Tobias, though I think that once you bring in people who are, say, neurodivergent, things get more complicated. Not that that excuses asshole behavior, mind you, but I do feel like some of the social behavior you’re describing can be at least due in part to that? This very strip brought up hyperfixation, for one thing.

And I’m not going to lie, this:

Seems like a vast oversimplification. The definition you gave doesn’t involve being an actively shitty person - such things can easily be due to factors beyond your control.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Feb 28th 2020 at 11:23:53 AM

On the one hand, I super relate to Tedd's reaction here, because that's how I felt when I finally thought to look up what the traits of ADHD actually were.

On the other hand... why are we talking about ADHD suddenly?

I mean the obvious answer is "ADHD".

I'm in the opposite boat. I was clinically diagnosed ADHD when I was a kid but never really thought about what it means. I knew I had it, but had no idea how it actually makes my brain function differently from other people's. I thought it just meant I was easily distracted.

When I finally started learning about ADHD, I spent a lot of time going, "Holy shit, that's the ADHD?! I thought that was just ME. ...wait, THAT'S the ADHD too?! I thought EVERYONE was like that!"

For anyone who's interested in learning more about ADHD and what it actually means to live with ADHD, might I recommend ADHD-Alien? Discovering these comics is what made it possible for me to take that important step into accepting what ADHD actually means for my life.