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El Goonish Shive

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RainehDaze Even so! from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Even so!
Sep 18th 2019 at 10:34:56 AM

I mean, I think the skirt was also because that's more or less the starting female outfit in Fable II? It looks about right for that, so it would make sense here.

Believe in justice!
Daremo Misanthrope Supreme from Parts Unknown Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
Sep 18th 2019 at 1:17:15 PM

NP Parable 9

Hax.

Also, is there anyone here who, if they suddenly and without effort gained rock hard abs, would NOT tear the midriff out of their shirt?

http://www.spinnyverse.com/comic/05-12-2010

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.
Sep 18th 2019 at 8:17:55 PM

Shame this isn't Kingdom of Amalur otherwise susan would learn that spammable attacks means infinite aerial juggles.

Apocalypse: Dirge Of Swans.
Daremo Misanthrope Supreme from Parts Unknown Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
Sep 19th 2019 at 8:07:15 PM

Comic Party 64

Well, this is happening.

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.
Sep 19th 2019 at 9:35:53 PM

Hmm. So I guess this whole little dance was to keep Diane from learning Grace's secret?

TheLovecraftian Relationship Status: Seeking boyfriend-free girl
Sep 20th 2019 at 2:45:38 AM

Hm... comic's fun and all, but I strongly disagree with forcing the clearly uncomfortable girl to go the party she's clearly not interested in going to. Let introverts be, goddammit.

Oh well. Shenanigans be important, I guess.

JamesTheA-Hole Mr. Underutilized Potential from Right where I want to be. Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
Mr. Underutilized Potential
Sep 20th 2019 at 5:56:48 AM

[up] The plot is going to happen whether you want it to or not, you might as well just accept it.

Wow, you contributed a couple of tropes to a massive list of them. "Clearly" this is a CrowningMomentOfAwesome!
fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Sep 20th 2019 at 11:14:10 AM

O.K, I'm getting these thoughts out of my head now.

1. Tedd and Grace are off-putting. It feels less like an acutal relationship and more as though:

Grace: "You're the only boy that's been nice to me ever since I escaped (sans moment where you tried to solicit me)."

Tedd: "You like me, embody all of my fetishes, and appeared to me in nothing but a trenchcoat. Also, you haven't tried to hurt me for my perversions yet."

It's not a healthy beginning for a relationship. It happens so quickly, it feels more inspired by Grace's loneliness and Ted's willingness to hook up with a girl that doesn't seem repulsed by his attentions then anything else. Yet I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a bad thing from the perspective of the story.

2. Sweet God in all the Heavens, was Nanase dating Elliot only for the sake of putting in romantic drama? It comes up for a bit and then is skinned the moment Nanase knows about Susan's confession by her instantly breaking up with Elliot.

What? The thing barely existed enough that it really does seem as though it was only there for romantic drama with Elliot and Susan. It's also not helped by later revelations that she wasn't really attracted to him and may actually be a lesbian.

3. I could feel how much the story wants me to sympathize with Ellen, it's palpable. And I do to a certain extent. However, the rapidness with which she turned into a villain (through the annoying cliche of "she became insane") and her proclaiming that she's the "evil twin" cooled me a little.

I'd be more O.K with her being a villain if she didn't instantly become one. Like, give it a week or two, let the time limit count down so it becomes a last resort, not a first one.

Odd confession: When I first read this, I was more willing to sympathize with Ellen if, instead of trying to ruin Elliot's life, she was trying to take it back. First thought was through murdering Elliot and coercing Tedd, second thought was through forcing a fusion with Elliot where he would be subsumed into Ellen.

I read at this at one in the morning, give me a little slack here.

4. Grace is odd. She has enough grasp of social rules to repudiate Tedd's attempt to get her in bed with him and apparently could tell that Elliot and Sarah were heading for rough waters yet she was apparently captured and imprisoned as a child until recently and can't grasp why nobody can endure her nakedness (except for when she clarified she wasn't naked in a trenchcoat for sex reasons). She's simultaneously too aware for her backstory yet not aware enough.

I feel the problem might be, for me at least, that while I know about the squirrel-hybrid thing, I do not know where she actually came from, where she got the nudity values from.

Edited by fredhot16 on Sep 20th 2019 at 11:15:43 AM

TheLovecraftian Relationship Status: Seeking boyfriend-free girl
JamesTheA-Hole Mr. Underutilized Potential from Right where I want to be. Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
Mr. Underutilized Potential
Sep 20th 2019 at 2:28:37 PM

@fredhot16

1. It's not a healthy beginning for a relationship. I agree, Tedd and Grace's relationship was the result of the excuse plot that the comic originally started with; however, Shive has acknowledged the crappy origins of the characters and worked to improve their relationship naturally throughout the storyline rather than resetting it. In a way you could say I admire Shive for that. Since back in (2010?) a lot of people were asking for him to do that.

2. Was Nanase dating Elliot only for the sake of putting in romantic drama? Yes. At the start of the comic Shive was testing the waters for what he could put into his comic and having fun exploring their natural conclusions. Shive did not care much for having his characters be human, he just wanted to use them to tell the story he had in mind. Later on when Shive came to care about his characters more, because of his previous missteps, paving the way for emotional consistency became that much harder.

3. I'd be more okay with Ellen being a villain if she didn't instantly become one. Yeah, this was due to Shive not understanding how to pace the comic very well, (and honestly he still isn't very good at it) and failing to comprehend the true emotional impact that having your life taken away would have on a person. The rapidness with which she turned into a villain and her proclaiming that she's the "evil twin" cooled me a little. Ellen wasn't the "evil twin" she claimed that she was so she could distance herself from her old friends and feel less bad about taking over Elliot's life.

4. Grace is simultaneously too aware for her backstory yet not aware enough. Once again, this is due to the inconsistent writing of the earlier comics. In the early days, Grace was as smart or as stupid as she needed to be at that particular moment. This changed when Shive devoted himself to making the comic better than the Cliché Storm it had been prior. With Shive now focused on character writing Grace became a much more human character (Ironic I know) which allowed her to become more dynamic while still remaining consistent.

It seems that most of your problems with the comic are from pre-2010, have you read all of El Goonish Shive?

Edited by JamesTheA-Hole on Sep 20th 2019 at 2:29:46 AM

Wow, you contributed a couple of tropes to a massive list of them. "Clearly" this is a CrowningMomentOfAwesome!
DatLonerGirl Mystery Twin from a top secret place Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Mystery Twin
Sep 20th 2019 at 4:35:58 PM

He's new. When he catches up, he can complain about the same stuff as the rest of us.

Writer, or something.
fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Sep 21st 2019 at 1:11:00 PM

It seems that most of your problems with the comic are from pre-2010, have you read all of El Goonish Shive?

Nopers. I'm still in the bowels of 2008, around Ellen's little burst of villainy bursting into pieces.

Sep 21st 2019 at 4:26:45 PM

...2008? 2008 was mostly Sister II... do you mean 2003?

fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Sep 21st 2019 at 4:39:39 PM

[up]Bugger, I meant 2002.

Sep 22nd 2019 at 9:16:05 AM

Oh dear. I'm starting to like Diane. What is the world coming to?

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
jaff from France Relationship Status: It's complicated
Sep 22nd 2019 at 11:29:08 AM

@fredhot16: I'd be more O.K with her being a villain if she didn't instantly become one. Like, give it a week or two, let the time limit count down so it becomes a last resort, not a first one.

Actually, I think it work much better that way: it's not a rationnal, willful decision to "become evil" slowly maturing over any period of time, it's an instantaneous freakout of colossal proportion due to 1)suddenly being born with the full life experience of someone you are not AND 2)believing you are doomed to die in a few days.

also, one could argue that Ellen did not become a villain, given that she tried to be a villain pretty much since the moment of her birth.and failed just as immediately

@Known Unknown:Oh dear. I'm starting to like Diane. I'm pretty sure you are expected to, now.

Personnally, I found her more interesting when she hadn't been pure and perfect since forever, but I guess it wouldn't be appropriate to have that anymore.

Robots shall be the second load of fertilizer dumped upon the human race -Clippy-
fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Sep 22nd 2019 at 3:15:46 PM

Actually, I think it work much better that way: it's not a rationnal, willful decision to "become evil" slowly maturing over any period of time, it's an instantaneous freakout of colossal proportion due to 1)suddenly being born with the full life experience of someone you are not AND 2)believing you are doomed to die in a few days.

It would still be an emotional decision because it would be still entirely motivated by the same emotions that motivated her: her unwillingness to fade away, brought on by the clock ticking closer and closer to oblivion and (presumably) Tedd being unable to prove to Ellen she won't disappear. We'd get more time to actually get a feel for what it means to be Ellen, the damage it's done to her life, her resentment of Elliot- who Ellen is in everything except body (and bizarrely sexuality). We'd get more time to sympathize with her, understand why she becomes a villain the way she does, and maybe get more insight into Elliot.

It'd have actual build-up, which is basically the tone of my complaints: dramatic events barely have build-up so everything feels rushed. Also, no "I'm the villain because I went insane" thing.

also, one could argue that Ellen did not become a villain, given that she tried to be a villain pretty much since the moment of her birth.

She became a villain because of her choice to become a villain. Her entire speech was how she's going to be the villain now. She wasn't hit with magical compulsion or a mind control ray. Her villainy is a product of her choosing to be a villain. This is why I say she became a villain.

Also, my mental image of her keeps flashing back to this chick.

Also also, I found this scene hilarious.

Also also also, How is this not magic?

Edited by fredhot16 on Sep 22nd 2019 at 3:21:42 AM

sgamer82 from Meridian, ID
Sep 22nd 2019 at 6:53:20 PM

Question, because it's been a long time since I read those strips: Decision to become a villain aside, what actual villainy did Ellen even do besides getting Elliot & Tedd arrested?

I remember most of her "villainy" being strictly Poke the Poodle, for the most part, which kind of renders the whole "she became a villain immediately" thing kind of moot, to my mind.

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 22nd 2019 at 7:55:58 AM

Plus, remember how in Eragon everyone cries "a single tear"? Yeah, just try that with One Piece and see if it works
fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Sep 22nd 2019 at 8:21:29 PM

[up]Welp, I had only gotten up to here so to answer your question, not that much.

1. Skipping class to openly stare at girls getting undressed for gym.

2. Manhandling a teacher and telling him off. (Though this one seemed provoked by his creepy comment about how a "nice dress" would fit her better, I'm sort of including it because she wanted to get in trouble for that too.)

3. Trying to talk about inappropriate subjects before chickening out when her first try, PMS (oh, Shive, really), was taken seriously.

4. Did she get them arrested? She tossed herself through the window to escape but Elliot and Ted got themselves captured by the world's most aggressive guard. Good thing he didn't have a gun, he would shot Elliot in the foot as a warning.

Her ideas of how to cause mayhem so Elliot would be blamed for it are crappy, correct, but being a crappy villain doesn't mean you're not the villain. Zim, for example: often incompetent yet he's still an alien invader, trying to take over the world.

I call her the villain because she's the antagonist and her goal is dedicated towards doing a form of harm, specifically towards the hero, Elliot. Her not being much of a villain (not because she wasn't trying, mind you) does not have anything to do with how quickly she became the antagonist.

Sep 23rd 2019 at 12:11:59 AM

Party 65

Hmm. One of the two of the main eight she doesn't mention is Tedd, who might be an issue... (the other, Sarah, has the bigger secret, but it's unlikely to come up).

FirstSnow Love your hair, hope you win from Patiently waiting for December Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Love your hair, hope you win
Sep 23rd 2019 at 3:14:39 AM

Soo the site seems to be riddled with pop-up ads now.

Joke? Why are you calling it a joke? You drew a picture of two dudes hugging and wrote "I love hugs!" on it.
ZheToralf Floating Advice Reminder from somewhere in Germany
Sep 23rd 2019 at 4:05:21 AM

Really? I wouldn't know, I use an adblocker.

You lost!
TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Exposition Dragon
Sep 23rd 2019 at 7:32:31 AM

Yeah, I've noticed that too. Remember when pop-up ads were ads that opened their own window, which you could then just close?

In-window pop-ups that play unskippable videos are worse. Much, much worse.

[up] Adblockers deprive content creators of payment for their work.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 23rd 2019 at 8:33:17 AM

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional outburst.
wingedcatgirl it's her... the real winged cat girl... from Catgirl Heaven, presumably Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
it's her... the real winged cat girl...
Sep 23rd 2019 at 7:37:43 AM

[up] Dan does have a Patreon, you know.

e: [down] To be clear, my only point was that if you want to make sure Dan gets paid for making EGS, you have a much better option than subjecting your computer to banner ads.

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Sep 23rd 2019 at 5:52:42 AM

🐱 Name: Sylvi 🐱 Pronouns: it/they/she 🐱
fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Sep 23rd 2019 at 8:23:07 AM

[up]And what do you know about his revenue and expenses? Maybe Patreon isnít enough. Heck, the fact he went for a Patreon is indicative, isnít it?


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