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ZheToralf Floating Advice Reminder from somewhere in Germany
Aug 2nd 2018 at 1:06:29 AM

I like that this has pretty much always been this way, but only now are they slowly starting to get the bigger picture.

Pandora, Jerry/Zeus, Helena & Demetrius, Magus and Voltaire have all meddled with the lives of the main cast at one point or another, if not outright manipulated them. Most of the time, however, they did not even realize it. I find it fascinating, and I really hope that one day they will learn the extend of the interventions of them.

Hell, it could be a motivation for Tedd to go down a darker path (Maybe some Arc where he almost becomes a Lord Tedd?). Wanting more power to break free from being a pawn.

Edited by ZheToralf on Aug 2nd 2018 at 10:09:16 AM

You lost!
TheLovecraftian Relationship Status: Seeking boyfriend-free girl
Aug 2nd 2018 at 3:28:02 AM

Hm. Like I said, what you're pointing out is a good idea on paper, but in practice, I think Shive takes it too far and makes the protagonists mostly unimportant in their own story.

RainehDaze from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Aug 2nd 2018 at 7:15:59 AM

They're perfectly important and competent on their own scale, but it's wrong to think of the large scale magical alterations as really their story except for where Tedd and Pandora bridge the two. It's not an issue if the two things are considered separately.

I STILL LIVE
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Aug 2nd 2018 at 8:48:17 AM

@Discar: Actually, I think Helena and Demetrius weren't watching. Magus even noted in the past that he was careful to act when the two weren't hovering nearby (which is why it took him so long to pull off his plan). I'm guessing Voltaire was similarly paranoid about being observed. Granted, it wouldn't surprise me if they eventually find out anyway somehow, but I suspect that they don't presently know his involvement (or the extent of it).

As for the involvement of the main characters in the plot... here's the problem from my perspective.

Part of plotting something out involves getting the audience to be emotionally invested in the characters involved in the plot itself. This emotional involvement isn't necessarily positive (e.g. you dislike the villain and want to see them fail), but it's still present. When the characters in which you as the audience have emotional involvement are less involved in the plot, you care less about the plot.

Pinball Protagonist isn't even necessarily appropriate in multiple cases in the most recent plot because, as noted, a good chunk of the main cast isn't even bouncing off the plot. Elliot, Ellen, Ashley, Susan, and Diane did have the plot bounce off them, and Tedd even (briefly) got to be active in the plot, but for most of the cast? Zip. Okay, I'll be generous and say that Sarah got to be a Pinball Protagonist as well, but only in the vaguest sense.

Not only that, but for now, the plot doesn't even directly affect most of them. For now, really only Susan, Diane, Tedd, and Sarah (and I've noted before how I think Sarah's reaction struck me as a bit much) have significant investment in how things played out, and it seems like a year is an awful long time to set up that much for that little payout.

Quite frankly, even though the stakes and the resultant effects are almost guaranteed to be much less, I have more emotional investment in the theoretical (if Shive ever gets around to writing/drawing them) dates of Justin and Sarah than anything that just happened in Sister III. At least there, the characters that the story is directing us to care about are the focal point and the characters will get to make choices that affect them.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Aug 2nd 2018 at 8:58:32 AM

The difference here is that Helena and Demetrius were actively accosting Magus whenever he showed up (and he had no way to hide from them). Immortals can easily hide from each other, and in that particular instance there would have been no need to confront Voltaire because Mr. Verres had everything under control.

RainehDaze from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Aug 2nd 2018 at 9:15:20 AM

Elliot, Ellen, Ashley, Susan, and Diane did have the plot bounce off them

That seems unfair. In the case of the first three, they were involved in a completely different plot to the whole deal with there being too much magic and magic changing, and in the actual Sister III portion of it, it's not like they were incidental observers. Yes, events were out of their hands and they basically lost—not helped by the rules changing partway, but that was only incidental to it—but that's not a bad thing. We've known for years that there was plotting and conspiring going on to do something.

Lack of emotional investment in the rest of the arc seems strange, to me. Raven and Pandora may as well be main characters by this point (well, who knows with Pandora now) and with the whole gist of it being family...

I STILL LIVE
Aug 2nd 2018 at 9:00:50 PM

Curious, Charlotte, Diane and Noah feel more like they belong in the main cast by now.

Forgive me for not being a walking stereotype. Saint Ryouga
DatLonerGirl Weirdlords Supreme from a top secret place Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Weirdlords Supreme
Aug 3rd 2018 at 8:22:10 AM

For a sec, I was wondering who Curious was.evil grin

Writer, or something.
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Aug 3rd 2018 at 9:03:50 AM

@Discar - Perhaps Voltaire can hide himself from Helena and Demetrius, but can he necessarily hide what he's doing from them when they're present? Perhaps so, but it seems like a needless risk for someone plotting to pull an A God Am I scenario. Even if they didn't necessarily realize he was doing something, it seems like too big of a risk to do something that they'd probably be likely to undo if they saw it happening (even if they didn't know why it was happening).

Also, logically speaking, H&D were mostly focused on watching Elliot, Ellen, and Tedd (I presume they were more looking into Tedd at the time). The fulcrum of Voltaire's plot (and thus where he most likely would have been present) was at where Pandora was doing stuff (since the trigger for the rules of magic changing was her doing - he probably wanted to make sure she was provoked into doing something to cause a magic rules change). Logic strongly suggests that Helena and Demetrius were busy elsewhere and thus don't know yet about Voltaire's specific doings.

@Raineh: Well, first and foremost, Ashley was there specifically to be an observer. She could have been completely absent and the plot would have gone down the same (with the exception that Magus and Sirleck's exposition would have come off really odd... but when your purpose is to trigger exposition, no, you're not really part of the plot).

Beyond that, Elliot and Ellen's bodies were important to the plot, but they spent most of it hijacked, and they didn't accomplish all that much (it seems likely that Magus would have been able to finish off Sirleck even without Ellen's help, and Elliot's fight scene with Magus was mostly pointless). Ellen and Elliot could have been replaced with ambulatory toasters for all that they affected the plot of Sister III.

@Kaitroper: I think Diane more or less is at this point, and Noah, well, he accomplishes about as much as the main cast does at this point.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
RainehDaze from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Aug 3rd 2018 at 9:17:06 AM

Their bodies being important is exactly why they were important. The ominous plot required hijacking because, funnily enough, there was no other way for Magus to convey or complete the plan. I'd say that's doing something, and the fight at the end was important for character reasons even if it didn't amount to anything.

If it had ended with Magus defeated, it would feel like a bit of a cop-out. All that buildup to end the instant the non-world-shattering plot is complete over a few pages of fighting?

So I'd say they were definitely still heavily involved and shaped how it all turned out rather than just bouncing off things, even if the practical outcome (Magus not changing Ellen's body and now being on the run from the authorities) is quite small.

I STILL LIVE
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Aug 3rd 2018 at 10:25:18 AM

Being living Macguffins is not the same as being important to the plot. They didn't do anything that actually helped resolve or move anything. You are describing a Pinball Protagonist.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Aug 5th 2018 at 7:39:29 AM

NP

What bothers me most about this image is that wind waker rito don't have beaks. Don't ask me why this bothers me.

Edited by stevebat on Aug 5th 2018 at 10:41:15 AM

Apocalypse: Dirge Of Swans.
SalFishFin Ace with a Podao from A respectful distance away Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Ace with a Podao
Aug 5th 2018 at 7:45:37 AM

She's a Pidgey(otto?) Of course she has a beak.

Can't learn Peck for some reason though.

3DS FC for PKMN & Smash:3583-2242-1801
Aug 5th 2018 at 8:31:37 AM

[up][up] Yes they do. ...mostly. It's placed a bit differently and they have a human mouth underneath, but they still have beaks. I guess technically it's just a nose, but it's close enough that it took me a few minutes of looking at both pictures to realize what the difference was.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Aug 5th 2018 at 12:24:21 PM

If you want to split hairs, Rito in Wind Waker technically don't have beaks because a proper beak would mean that the hard protrusion would include the jaw as well as the nostrum. I think it's properly called a horn in the case of Wind Waker Rito. (Breath of the Wild Rito, however, do have proper beaks.)

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Daremo The Cat Who Walks by Himself from Parts Unknown Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
The Cat Who Walks by Himself
Aug 6th 2018 at 10:10:25 AM The Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.
TobiasDrake Always watching, never seen from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Always watching, never seen
Aug 6th 2018 at 12:13:21 PM

This stopped being a Pokemon parody at some point.

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold, dispassionate logic that which can be equally or better explained by emotional outburst.
Aug 6th 2018 at 2:32:43 PM

According to the original pokemon anime, most pokemon travel moves are extremely useless thanks to humans being the wrong size. One of the few times they were actually serious too.

Apocalypse: Dirge Of Swans.
TobiasDrake Always watching, never seen from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Always watching, never seen
Aug 6th 2018 at 5:12:51 PM Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold, dispassionate logic that which can be equally or better explained by emotional outburst.
Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Aug 7th 2018 at 2:29:15 AM I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Daremo The Cat Who Walks by Himself from Parts Unknown Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
The Cat Who Walks by Himself
Aug 7th 2018 at 1:37:52 PM

Sketchbook

With bonus hairstyles in the commentary.

The Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.
Daremo The Cat Who Walks by Himself from Parts Unknown Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
The Cat Who Walks by Himself
Aug 7th 2018 at 11:45:50 PM

NP Gam23

Don't stop! You'll drown!

The Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.
jaff from France Relationship Status: It's complicated
Aug 8th 2018 at 6:45:24 AM

@Tobias Drake: This stopped being a Pokemon parody at some point.

I think we can safely infer what I would call "Shive's Law" at that point.

"As an EGS storyline grows longer, the probability of fetish-based tranformation hijinks approaches 1."

Edited by jaff on Aug 8th 2018 at 6:45:05 AM

Robots shall be the second load of fertilizer dumped upon the human race -Clippy-
Daremo The Cat Who Walks by Himself from Parts Unknown Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
The Cat Who Walks by Himself
Aug 8th 2018 at 11:49:41 PM The Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
Aug 9th 2018 at 8:41:22 PM

[up],[up][up] Now that's what I call juxtaposition.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.

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