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MadeofMeat Since: Jan, 2001
#5076: Jul 31st 2009 at 5:42:46 PM

From How Not To Write A Novel:

In many novels where he turns into the love interest by story's end, the novelist always puts him through a more-or-less subtle masculinization. This may be through ultrafine touches like having him move a sofa, manfully taking the heroine's side in a dispute when she's becoming tearfully desperate, or just making knowledgeable comments about football.

I can't tell if this is something you're supposed to do or not supposed to do. If it's the former, why? What if your heroine prefers effeminate, quiet or just not-traditionally-manly men? I know that fiction isn't like real life, but I know I prefer men with low testosterone levels.

EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#5077: Jul 31st 2009 at 5:47:38 PM

@Zyxzy: No, the Poles make awesome movie posters.

Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#5078: Jul 31st 2009 at 5:48:01 PM

This would be a movie I would watch, sheerly for the insanity value.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
Miijhal Since: Jul, 2011
#5079: Jul 31st 2009 at 5:48:04 PM

Meaty, you're reading the book too? :D

Basically, what I think they're trying to say is that you don't want the character to be a morbidly obese slob, even if he does have a heart of gold. That's not really attractive, and people often read romances because they want to be part of a romantic fantasy. Most people do not fantasize about being in a relationship with a jolly fat man in a red suit.

And, as a note, that one is mostly for serious romance novels only (or ones that have a heavy focus on romance), from what I can tell.

edited 31st Jul '09 5:49:56 PM by Miijhal

MadeofMeat Since: Jan, 2001
#5080: Jul 31st 2009 at 6:07:27 PM

Would a character hating their rusty, heavy scalpel wings that can't fly fall into But Your Wings Are Beautiful?

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#5081: Jul 31st 2009 at 8:13:00 PM

@meaty: generally, if that book says that novelists do it, it's not a thing you should do without careful thinking about it.

I'd prefer, generally, reading a story in which characters don't have to change to find love — grow into themselves, perhaps, grow in confidence, open up, and all the rest, but I hate bad Aesops about You Must Become Manly or whatever.

(edit) and about the wings: yes. That trope isn't necessarily literal; the feature in question isn't necessarily wings, and their beauty can be purely subjective; what matters is that the person who he wants to not be ugly for thinks he's beautiful that way.

edited 31st Jul '09 8:14:49 PM by Morven

A brighter future for a darker age.
MadeofMeat Since: Jan, 2001
#5082: Jul 31st 2009 at 8:48:40 PM

Everyone is so obsessed with sex. I go on AIM and see all the sex features with little wry jokes in them and I feel like they're saying "Nyah nyah, we're in a special club! We eat eggs to improve our love life and want to know the top 10 things a man wants in bed! No asexuals allowed!" :(

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#5083: Jul 31st 2009 at 8:55:51 PM

That's because so many people discover sex and are convinced they've found this new cool secret that nobody's known before.

I'm very sexual. I'm quite the pervert, in fact. But sex is NOT the be-all and end-all of life. There are, in fact, many things I'd rather do than sex. There are even more things I'd never give up doing in favor of sex. And it's certainly not, despite Freud, humanity's only driving motivation.

A brighter future for a darker age.
MadeofMeat Since: Jan, 2001
#5084: Jul 31st 2009 at 8:58:05 PM

I just feel excluded. Asexuals don't have anything to share that fills the void, except the fact that we can make "sex is something to be avoided amirite?" jokes.

AFGNCAAP Not axe crazy I swear from Great Underground Empire Since: Jun, 2009
Not axe crazy I swear
#5085: Jul 31st 2009 at 9:53:09 PM

I felt quite like that last night. It kept me awake for a while. That is all.

Some writing.
Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#5086: Aug 1st 2009 at 2:18:43 AM

I hope my PM about it wasn't unhelpful, at least.

A brighter future for a darker age.
AFGNCAAP Not axe crazy I swear from Great Underground Empire Since: Jun, 2009
Not axe crazy I swear
#5087: Aug 1st 2009 at 2:58:27 AM

I just returned it. Not unhelpful whatsoever. Thanks again.

Some writing.
Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#5088: Aug 1st 2009 at 3:39:56 AM

And returned back. Sorry, I wrote a novel or something when a short email would have done. I embody tl;dr a bit too well, at times.

A brighter future for a darker age.
MadeofMeat Since: Jan, 2001
#5089: Aug 1st 2009 at 2:17:03 PM

Is it really an epidemic, authors describing their heroine's breast size? I can't even imagine my characters' breast sizes, which is probably a bad thing because then I have to try and "remember" when I sit down to draw.

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#5090: Aug 1st 2009 at 5:56:35 PM

Have you encountered it being an epidemic in what you read, Meaty?

I think it doesn't hurt for an author to KNOW their character's bra size, but introducing it smacks of a boring kind of fetishism. Which is a shame, when there are so many more interesting fetishes than statistics.

A brighter future for a darker age.
MadeofMeat Since: Jan, 2001
#5091: Aug 1st 2009 at 5:57:55 PM

No, I've just seen a lot of writing websites say that it's a mistake people often make.

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#5092: Aug 1st 2009 at 5:59:55 PM

I'd agree with them that it's a bad move. Statistics of any sort, not just their bust size. Until there's a non-forced moment to mention it, anyway. It just reads funny when someone is introduced, or introduces themselves, like a nutritional contents label. Even if their role is to be nutrition.

A brighter future for a darker age.
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#5093: Aug 1st 2009 at 6:01:43 PM

Whenever I hear about a female character that I don't know, I check the inevitable Wikipedia article on them. If the character exists in a fighting game or a dating sim, the article always has their measurements. It Just Bugs Me!. It seems so creepy... real people don't have them on the article, so why fictional characters?

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
MadeofMeat Since: Jan, 2001
#5094: Aug 1st 2009 at 6:01:52 PM

But why do people do it in the first place? It's so trivial, but it's not interesting or funny. Most people can't (accurately) imagine breast size anyway, so it doesn't add to the image.

They don't mean statistics, by the way. They mean stuff like "medium sized breasts".

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#5095: Aug 1st 2009 at 6:18:54 PM

Well, in general, you want to avoid over-describing your viewpoint character, certainly in a hurry. You want the reader to sink in behind their eyes and see things as them.

In fact, over-describing characters in general is a problem; note little bits over time, otherwise it feels like your viewpoint character is scoping them out in a kind of creepy way. And if you mean creepy, write it that way, but make sure the reader knows it's meant to be creepy, rather than accidentally.

A brighter future for a darker age.
MadeofMeat Since: Jan, 2001
#5096: Aug 1st 2009 at 6:20:38 PM

Why are you giving this advice to me? I'm a graphic novellist.

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#5097: Aug 1st 2009 at 6:22:36 PM

Well, you asked, so I was answering to you. Nothing meant by it. Really 'you' should be read as generic here. Whoever's intending to write.

A brighter future for a darker age.
MadeofMeat Since: Jan, 2001
#5098: Aug 2nd 2009 at 12:54:33 AM

Guys, this account has a rarely heard from other half named Doctor. He's been on my profile for a while, and posted in the photos thread once, but now he is upset by his lack of exposure and is open for questioning. I trust my keyboard in his nimble hands. God speed.

edited 2nd Aug '09 12:54:43 AM by Made of Meat

FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#5099: Aug 4th 2009 at 1:04:31 AM

I discovered a weird secret-ish kinda thing with the forum.

I feel like I should be able to use my newfound knowledge for something, but I don't know what.

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
WilliamWideWeb (weaving) Since: Jan, 2001
(weaving)
#5100: Aug 4th 2009 at 1:18:49 AM

What is your newfound knowledge?

SHIKI is dead.

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