This is the thread for discussion of The Order of the Stick plot, characters, etc. We have a separate thread
for discussing game rules and mechanics. Excessive rules discussions here may be thumped as off-topic.
OP edited to make this header - Fighteer
edited 18th Sep '17 1:08:08 PM by Fighteer
Okay, let's review the situation here.
Belkar, until fairly recently, has been a complete sociopath, with little knowledge of how to work with other people. He also has a very narrow skillset, centered around killing and/or taunting people, which were all the skills he needed as a sociopath.
You are saying that his actions have generally been unhelpful, instead of beneficial to the group, which is true. However, your argument is that "he isn't really trying", despite the established fact that he is still learning how to be a team player, and having to work with said very narrow skillset. Not only does this run counter to the way morality in the OOTS-verse works
, the implication of "incompetence equals malice" is really disturbing.
So, in your opinion, he didn't automatically flip from "total sociopath" to "ideal team player" overnight, therefore he's not trying? Wow. Just wow.
P.S. And exactly how was Belkar supposed to know Roy would have to fight Thog? That reveal was done at the last second, when before everyone thought it would be Roy vs. Gannji.
edited 16th Sep '13 6:25:38 PM by TotemicHero
Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)If we're talking about Belkar's supposed change, I haven't seen it. Effort counts, according to the celestial who evaluated Roy. Is Belkar trying to be a better person, or is he trying to look like a better person?
Moreover, I agree that Belkar hasn't shown remorse for any of his past actions, except to the extent that they've inconvenienced him personally. A Good person, or even a non-Evil person, would experience remorse at their past bad actions for their own sake.
Vaarsuuvius, who is Neutral, experienced a huge bout of My God, What Have I Done? when he learned that he was responsible for such a huge act of mass murder, even though he wasn't fully aware of the consequences at the time.
So far the only other being whose welfare we've seen Belkar genuinely cares about is Mr. Scruffy.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.One Good-ish deed does not a lifetime of Evil redeem.
And I'd argue that Belkar's moral improvement has been a case of Becoming the Mask rather than a genuine change of heart. That's not to discredit becoming the mask as a legitimate way for someone to become a better person, but I do think it means he can't really be given much credit for attempting redemption, because the reality is that he was consciously attempting to remain the same Evil character he'd always been by lying about his motives and obscuring hi actions, and it backfired.
I think the rescue of Gannji and Enor is pretty impressive, as I can't think of many other examples of Evil characters displaying empathy in the strip (I guess you could sort of count Redcloak after he had a Heel Realization regarding his treatment of hobgoblins). Evil characters may be capable of kindness to those within their "circle", but they don't extend it to anyone outside of it, which makes it striking that Belkar of all people is the exception to that (yes, getting random mooks stomped and eaten by a dinosaur was a definite plus).
I also think that Belkar has shown the most growth since Durkon's death- he seems to have gone from exulting in his behavior (i.e. "Sexy Shoeless God of War") to self-hatred. Also, if he has any skill making a Listen Check, Roy told him outright that he's not long for this world and that everyone knew his fake character development was just that- and yet he's still loyal to the team...
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wikiOn the topic of Belkar being useful, he demonstrates remarkable usefulness here
by taking out Nale; Belkar, at this moment, being the only member of the party who is completely invulnerable to Nale's Suggestion, through virtue of clever planning by Roy.
The only reason they even found the damn pyramid
in the first place is because of Belkar.
Here
he joins Roy in engaging Tarquin, and even keeps Tarquin busy
for Durkon to heal Roy.
Belkar didn't just spontaneously start being useful once Durkon died; he's always carried his weight, and recently is no exception.
edited 16th Sep '13 8:30:44 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I agree. I think he stopped being The Millstone after his Epiphany. I'm more saying that the kind of growth that would potentially allow him to die as Chaotic Neutral has largely happened since Durkon's death. Before that, he was more like Chaotic Evil and useful and then a bit later, Chaotic Evil and useful and starting to Become The Mask.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wikiOn the topic of Belkar being useful, he demonstrates remarkable usefulness here by taking out Nale; Belkar, at this moment, being the only member of the party who is completely invulnerable to Nale's Suggestion, through virtue of clever planning by Roy.
Yes, but that's another example of what I was talking about. Belkar is being strategically deployed by Roy (put in a position where Holy Word makes him invulnerable to suggestion), but Belkar himself isn't doing anything praiseworthy - he's just engaging in his favourite activity of "killing people".
And in response to the idea that "trying is sufficient" based on Roy's heaven experience - Belkar is trying to look good to the other team members. Prior to Durkon's death, that - and "protect Mr. Scruffy" - are his only objectives for "improvement" that we have any evidence for. He's not trying to be a good team member; he's even farther from trying to be a good person. And attacking Roy contrary to Roy's direct orders, just to be aggravating and show off, and thereby getting Roy into a fight when Roy's primary objective was "avoid having to fight as a gladiator", is not making an error based on inexperience being decent or helpful - it's deliberate and intentional unhelpfulness for Belkar's momentary amusement.
I'm starting to realise that this series is making some really damn good points about good intention versus good deed. Belkar is genuinely striving to be a worthwhile member of his team and earn the respect of his friends — he may not personally understand the concept of empathy, but he's faithfully sticking to the rules he's been presented with for good behaviour, which really is all you could ask of someone with that particular blind spot. But he's also done evil stuff in the past, for which he has expressed little if any remorse (whether "just not getting it" works as an excuse for THAT is a tough question).
V (who in the past has generally been just self-absorbed and occasionally a bit of a dick) has performed a fundamentally, atrociously evil act, and is racked with guilt about it. Guilt which, it's interesting to note, made him functionally useless to the team when they really could have used him.
So which of them is evil? Both, neither, one or the other? I'm not trying to come down on any particular side, I just think it's a very interesting juxtaposition of character arcs.
I might be late to the proverbial party on this one, but does anyone else find Sabine's comment to V somewhat touching?
I don't know if its a case of Enemy Mine or if she was just a Punch-Clock Villain, but it's nice to see some trace of kindness from her.
Especially considering how V ended up there in the first place.
Fire, air, water, earth...legend has it that when these four elements are gathered, they will form the fifth element...boron.V and Sabine have had a Friendly Enemies rapport ever since meeting in an Azure City bar.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"That is a question that we cannot answer, as we are not Rich, Rich's wife, or Rich's accountant. It's none of our business.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"He sells other OOTS merchandise too, and plus runs internet ads (thus getting some ad revenue) on his site's forums. Also keep in mind that most of the costs of printing the books are covered by his Kickstarter drives. Beyond that, it's as Fighteer said, and your guess is as good as mine.
Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
There was one Kickstarter drive to cover reprints of all of his books, which he could not have afforded to fund out of pocket. He did fund all of the previous printings himself. He has a family which he provides for and has good health insurance for a self-employed individual with a chronic medical condition. That should enable anyone who cares enough to do the math to ballpark his income within a reasonable range.
But it is very rude to inquire how much an author earns.
edited 17th Sep '13 9:38:39 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"![]()
And again, the books aren't his only revenue stream.
This is the answer. Any answer beyond this is overly personal and not our business.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Belkar is genuinely striving to be a worthwhile member of his team and earn the respect of his friends
I wouldn't go that far. Belkar believes he is due respect just for being Belkar, and because he has the capability to kill anyone who doesn't give it to him. I don't think he's trying to earn anything, because he really thinks he just deserves whatever he wants.
I wouldn't even say he's being genuine in his efforts to be a more productive team player. He is a more productive team player ever since his Mark of Justice trip, but it's important to remember that the lesson he learned from that psychedelic journey was exactly theopposite of genuine and good; he learned to lie about being helpful and good specifically so he could remain his selfish, evil self.
A good illustration of this point was back in Sandsedge when Durkon was fighting the tree, and Belkar volunteered to get him back. He accomplished this by bashing Durkon over the head twice, not because it was the only thing he could think of, but because it amused him and could be passed off as being the only thing he could think of.
Becoming the Mask does count for something, but I don't think he deserves very much credit for it when it was the dead opposite of his original intention for donning the mask, and even his behavior since he started becoming the mask has been closer to, as Fighteer put it, minimum acceptable standards, than it has been to praise-worthy.
Also, new comic.
Whoops, I should probably actually put the link in there.
edited 17th Sep '13 1:32:33 PM by Wryte

"A few hours" is the time since Durkon's death, after which Belkar began making a consistently positive contribution to the team. In the Empire of Blood, for the reason I described - bullying prisoners for his own amusement and getting Roy stuck in a near-lethal gladiatorial match - Belkar's actions overall were evil, and more unhelpful than helpful.
edited 16th Sep '13 5:56:53 PM by WarriorEowyn