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This is the thread for discussion of The Order of the Stick plot, characters, etc. We have a separate thread for discussing game rules and mechanics. Excessive rules discussions here may be thumped as off-topic.

OP edited to make this header - Fighteer

edited 18th Sep '17 1:08:08 PM by Fighteer

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#24301: Sep 9th 2013 at 8:48:38 PM

Man, it's a good thing he changed it because I would never in a million years be able to take a villain called Malachi seriously.

'Question not yon clams, nor yon jerkith beef. These be favored foods of the fiendmaker!'

edited 9th Sep '13 8:49:54 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#24302: Sep 9th 2013 at 9:17:20 PM

Nor would I. But for Different reasons.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#24303: Sep 9th 2013 at 9:18:43 PM

Who ever heard of Darth Malak anyway. Expanded Universe drivel.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#24304: Sep 9th 2013 at 9:20:23 PM

I suspect that Lucas' Tarkin and Burlew's Tarquin are both named after the historical Tarquin(s).

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Knowlessman hey i dunno, why don't you tell me from Stupidtown, USA (FL) Since: Jun, 2013 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
hey i dunno, why don't you tell me
#24305: Sep 9th 2013 at 9:20:50 PM

[up][up] Knights of the Old Republic, actually, so only kinda EU.

edited 9th Sep '13 9:21:33 PM by Knowlessman

i care but i'm restless, i'm here but i'm really gone, i'm wrong and i'm sorry, baby
joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#24306: Sep 10th 2013 at 5:05:13 AM

Yes kotor is generally accepted as one of the best part s of the ey

I'm baaaaaaack
hcobb Since: Jan, 2001
#24307: Sep 10th 2013 at 8:15:00 AM

"The reign of Tarquin is typically described as a tyranny that justified the abolition of the monarchy."

Baked in foreshadowing?

johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#24308: Sep 10th 2013 at 8:56:37 AM

[up]That's just the thing though, he's not a monarch. He's the commander of the armed forces and Malack is the High Priest, which are (a) not democratic positions and (b) control a great deal of power that is not easily removed just because some elected ninny gets big ideas in his head.

Come to think of it, if you're running a puppet government anyway then having the figurehead democratically elected saves the need for staging all those revolutions.

All it takes is a stern talk at the start of his term; "Look, bub, you do as we say. Now we'll listen to what the public is demanding of you, and you'll give them a lot of platitudes, and we'll concede to enough of the minor stuff to keep them sweet. When you're inevitably voted out of office, if you've done your job you'll get a nice title and a big mansion to retire to. I'm sure I don't need to spell out the alternative."

edited 10th Sep '13 8:57:34 AM by johnnye

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#24309: Sep 10th 2013 at 9:33:54 AM

This has been brought up before (possibly by me), but its very hard to square Tarquin's interest of ruling from behind the scenes and dying in comfort of old age with his interest in being the Big Bad everyone knows and fears who gets slain by The Hero.

Assuming this isn't Characterization Marches On, it seems that (whether or not they originally involved this) Tarquin and co. probably intend to openly seize power at some point.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#24310: Sep 10th 2013 at 9:36:38 AM

It's enough to him that he knows that he has the power. And to judge by the army corps he has trained for dramatic plot reveals, plus the assassins and "diplomats" who show up all over the place, there are plenty of other people who know as well.

It's something of an Open Secret.

edited 10th Sep '13 9:37:52 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#24311: Sep 10th 2013 at 9:54:49 AM

Keep in mind that the country just threw a giant public celebration in honor of the general's son. Even if people don't realize that he's secretly controlling the Empress, they obviously know that he's incredibly powerful and influential.

Bloodsquirrel Since: May, 2011
#24312: Sep 10th 2013 at 10:04:04 AM

This has been brought up before (possibly by me), but its very hard to square Tarquin's interest of ruling from behind the scenes and dying in comfort of old age with his interest in being the Big Bad everyone knows and fears who gets slain by The Hero.

Only if you forget that it's supposed to be a win-win scenario. If someone overthrows him, it'll be cool, because he still got what he wanted for a long time, and it'll make a cool story at least. If they don't, it's cool, because he got to live to a ripe old age getting what he wants.

Besides, even if he would prefer the former, he's still not going to actively plan to make it happen. He knows that's what heroes are for. He needs to have a plan for Elan to foil, or what's the point?

edited 10th Sep '13 10:04:26 AM by Bloodsquirrel

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#24313: Sep 10th 2013 at 11:11:29 AM

[up][up] If you go by the "official" history, Tarquin and Malack led the "revolution" that deposed the previous tyrannical rulers of the empire and put Her Draconic Obesity in charge of a brand new, benevolent government. He's a national hero; it says so on all the posters.

edited 10th Sep '13 11:22:52 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Shale Since: Jan, 2001
#24314: Sep 10th 2013 at 11:55:46 AM

Also, he seems at least mildly aware that there's an omniscient reader observing everyone's secrets.

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#24315: Sep 10th 2013 at 12:04:53 PM

If Tarquin knows about the fourth wall then any sort of ironic death would be meaningless, because we'll still remember him as the badass he is, so he still gets what he wants. ;p

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#24316: Sep 10th 2013 at 12:12:58 PM

That's why V is the character of choice to kill him, if he's to be killed. After all, for all his talent, abilities, and knowledge, Tarquin is still a fighter, and it's only fitting that he dies in a way that makes that very clear.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#24317: Sep 10th 2013 at 12:15:42 PM

Don't you see that this whole game of finding ways to make him "suffer" in defeat is precisely what he wants us to be playing? He's got everyone — even the audience — so concerned with engineering a suitably karmic downfall that we never get around to actually defeating him.

I can almost see why Nale might have become a complexity addict. His father makes it a hobby to Mind Screw his opponents until they can't even consider straightforward solutions to problems.

Tarquin and the rest of his group needs to die, and the people in their empires need to be set on a course to true self-governance. That's it.

[down] Being defeated by the real Big Bad would certainly be an appropriate downfall for a character who is convinced that he himself is the Big Bad. I'm not sure how we could realistically expect it to happen, unless Xykon goes completely out of character.

edited 10th Sep '13 12:21:20 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#24318: Sep 10th 2013 at 12:20:02 PM

[up][up]I don't know about that. It would be too much of a repeat of Kurbota.

Also, Burlew kind of doesn't seem to like magic-users much, especially in terms of the idea that everyone else is useless compared to them.

Xykon would work better for that purpose because while he relies on magic, he's really more a demonstration of how raw power can trounce subtlety- it just so happens that his power happens to be magical.

[up] Point taken. I would also add though that in some ways I feel that Tarquin's assertion that he's won either way is to trick the heroes into thinking that they shouldn't even try to stop him.

edited 10th Sep '13 12:21:19 PM by Hodor

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Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#24319: Sep 10th 2013 at 12:25:27 PM

Xykon killing Tarquin just doesn't seem like it's in the cards at this point. It's not an issue of whether or not it would be fitting or whether or not it's in-character, it's just that the two of them are on different continents and neither has any reason to go visit the other.

edited 10th Sep '13 12:25:55 PM by Gilphon

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#24320: Sep 10th 2013 at 12:30:22 PM

Applying Break the Haughty to the wizard class is a recurring theme in Order Of The Stick. It's Xykon's favorite pastime and a key element of Roy's motivation, as well as the reason why V tends to get treated as the Butt-Monkey. It would be out of character for Rich himself to have Tarquins' downfall be about demonstrating why Wizards Are Better Than Everyone Else.

With that in mind, I have no doubt that if V actually did try to kill Tarquin, instead of being a triumphant display of how a wizard's power is the greatest thing in the universe, we would instead be treated to a successful demonstration of what spending several decades preparing for every possible contingency gains you. It would be an incredibly badass scene. Just not for V.

The man wears a Ring of True Seeing at all times, brings an army to a swordfight, literally wrote the book for how mooks can counter heroes' tricks, has an elite force trained in dramatic plot reveals, and even knows obscure counterattacks to obscure prestige classes like the Dashing Swordsman. Screw Batman Wizard; Tarquin is just plain Batman. To think that he would be caught offguard by something as incredibly likely as having to fight a wizard at some point in his career is ridiculous.

edited 10th Sep '13 12:36:07 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#24321: Sep 10th 2013 at 12:32:30 PM

I really don't think it matters that much to Rich. Wizards in his world tend to consider themselves to be the Almighty because, in 3.5 rules, they really kind of are. That doesn't mean that they suddenly suck just because he says so. V is a very effective blaster, even if that's not the best use for a wizard.

Rich's intended Aesop is that considering yourself superior to others on the basis of your class choice never turns out well. I expect V to save the day spectacularly at some point, having learned that lesson.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
hcobb Since: Jan, 2001
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#24323: Sep 10th 2013 at 12:54:22 PM

For the record, I don't want/expect Tarquin to die because it's appropriate that he gets punished karma-riffically for what he's done. I want/expect Tarquin to die because at this point, the only ways I see the Order getting out of this situation are (1) them killing or subduing basically every enemy soldier, or (2) the soldiers stopping their attack for some reason.

The former is highly unlikely from a numbers standpoint (as we've noted), and the latter will pretty much never happen as long as Tarquin is alive, because he's determined to do the "best" for his son. Unless Elan himself is brought to death's door, Tarquin will never issue a "stand down" order. So that leaves one of his companions to issue that order in his stead, meaning Tarquin himself would have to be killed or incapacitated. Given what he has done (and the Order's general opinions on him at this stage), being killed is much more likely.

Of course, if it's going to happen, it might as well happen with style, so I'm okay with coming up with karmic deaths for Tarquin.

edited 10th Sep '13 12:55:58 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#24324: Sep 10th 2013 at 12:56:22 PM

Who's going to do it, though? Xykon is already on his way to Kraagor's Gate; Sabine is banished for most of a day; V is trapped under the rubble of the pyramid.

One supposes Xykon might pull an And Another Thing... gag, but that would come across as very Deus ex Machina.

edited 10th Sep '13 12:58:36 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#24325: Sep 10th 2013 at 1:02:29 PM

Remember, the Fiends have said that they are taking care to keep V's body safe. So, said body is probably no longer buried, since they are clearly being very Lawful about their deal. And, as I mentioned, it would please them greatly to have Tarquin offed, so...

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

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