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This is the thread for discussion of The Order of the Stick plot, characters, etc. We have a separate thread for discussing game rules and mechanics. Excessive rules discussions here may be thumped as off-topic.

OP edited to make this header - Fighteer

edited 18th Sep '17 1:08:08 PM by Fighteer

petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
#62276: Feb 5th 2024 at 7:54:30 AM

As far as I know, evil afterlives in DND are turning into a demonic entity based on your alignment and joining the eternal war in hell between the differently aligned demonic entities. I guess you could be summoned to the material plane for whatever reason too. But does it make a difference whether you are a human(oid) or a dragon? Xykon explicitly stated that he wants to avoid his afterlife, while apparently Calder would have preferred that to being held in place while still aware. Whether he would preferred an unconscious stasis to an afterlife we don't know.

Fjón þvæ ég af mér fjanda minna rán og reiði ríkra manna.
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#62277: Feb 5th 2024 at 7:56:36 AM

plus I think evil dragons just go to Tiamat

like, theoretically, it should be kinda like the Loki situation

Edited by alekos23 on Feb 5th 2024 at 5:57:07 PM

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#62278: Feb 5th 2024 at 8:25:31 AM

We know that Soon forced the Order of the Scribble to accept Calder's surrender (at least, by Serini's account). We don't know that he approved of Calder being put in stasis in Kraagor's Tomb as a guardian.

In fact it seems very likely he didn't have anything to do with it, since Serini and the other members of the Scribble constructed the Tomb without his help.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#62279: Feb 5th 2024 at 8:45:36 AM

We don't actually know that he forced the others.

We know that Serini said they spared him because of Soon, but that doesn't necessarily mean he strong armed them.

I'm sure that's how Girard would describe it, but Girard was Anti-Soon on literally all things.

One Strip! One Strip!
petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
#62280: Feb 5th 2024 at 8:50:01 AM

Serini seems pretty biased against Soon, and paladins in general. It's not just Girard, but probably Girard was even more strongly against him than Serini.

Fjón þvæ ég af mér fjanda minna rán og reiði ríkra manna.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#62281: Feb 5th 2024 at 8:52:05 AM

It makes sense that the party's Chaotic characters would particularly resent the Lawful Good one, especially if he had as much of a stick up his ass as it seemed from their accounts.

Interestingly, we only have Soon's side of the story indirectly — through another Chaotic character (Shojo).

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 5th 2024 at 11:52:46 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DatLonerGirl Gimme your desire... from a top secret place Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Gimme your desire...
#62282: Feb 5th 2024 at 9:38:32 AM

...Is there a way to force a character to keep their word in this world? There was the mark on Belkar, but I think a dragon would need something a little stronger than nausea.

Writer, or something. Push the button, if you dare. 🖲️
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62283: Feb 5th 2024 at 9:45:00 AM

Mark of Justice or Geas would probably be the closest options there. But both run into the problem of the dragon's spell resistance, as well as the effects being negligible for a creature of such power - who would also have options to simply remove the effects anyway.

If you're looking for a spell that is seriously powerful enough to enslave an Ancient Red Dragon into obedience, you're going to have to look at Epic magic. That is so far beyond the pay grade of any reasonably leveled caster.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 5th 2024 at 9:46:35 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#62284: Feb 5th 2024 at 9:49:38 AM

Hmmm.

With all the talk about about how hard it would be to restrain Calder, it says a lot about how effectively the Scribbler must have fought him that he felt the need to surrender, even if only to buy time.

Like, how strong were they?

One Strip! One Strip!
FuzzyBoots from Outlying borough of Pittsburgh (there's a lot of Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
#62285: Feb 5th 2024 at 9:49:45 AM

[lol] "I do so solemnly swear that I am up to no mischief and will eat no more vill- BLEAGH! My gods, my flame fluid is not supposed to spew like that and it is distinctly uncomfo- BLEEAAGH!"

"Fool dragon, did you not realize that the Mark of Justice is more than symbolic? Every time that you go back on your promises, you will suffer extreme nausea and-"

"Oh gods, but it burns... that was not meant to be in my nasal cavities! I- HURK- must not- HNGGHHH- sneeze..."

<loud foom as the dragon gets its nasal passages cleared by fiery explosion and it curls up in the corner, weeping flaming tears>

"I just want to go home... and sleep on my treasure... I don't want to be sick anymo- HURK!"

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62286: Feb 5th 2024 at 9:53:33 AM

And on that note: A dragon quite literally explosive vomiting constitutes as much of a problem for the people around them as it does for the dragon themselves.

Notably, the kind of effects that a Mark of Justice may inflict are any one of:

  • -6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1).
  • -4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.
  • Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.
  • Or a custom effect no more potent than the options listed here.

Belkar's total debilitation was the result of the comic's general policy with prioritizing drama above rule policing.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 5th 2024 at 9:54:50 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#62287: Feb 5th 2024 at 10:14:08 AM

If there were a way to depower a dragon so that its threat is legitimately removed, allowing it to undergo some kind of rehabilitation arc, then sure. But as the black dragon pointed out to V many books ago, a human or elf deprived of magic is just a meat sack, while a dragon is still a death machine.

That’s what Polymorph is for.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
shigmiya64 Somebody get this freaking duck away from me! from a settlement that needs our help, General Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Somebody get this freaking duck away from me!
#62288: Feb 5th 2024 at 10:19:11 AM

[up][up] I interpreted it as a creative version of the third option.

Edited by shigmiya64 on Feb 5th 2024 at 1:19:22 PM

HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#62289: Feb 5th 2024 at 10:43:02 AM

Belkar's Mark was homebrewed; the illusory Shojo called it a Greater Mark of Justice when it went off. It's explicitly better than the version in the rules.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#62290: Feb 5th 2024 at 11:22:19 AM

Based on what we’ve seen, Lirian would also most likely have been in favor of letting him live if it were an option.

Edited by LSBK on Feb 5th 2024 at 7:49:47 AM

HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#62291: Feb 5th 2024 at 12:46:34 PM

And where Lirian went, Dorukan likely followed. That's half the party (the non-Chaotic half, incidentally). And it's Dorukan who would have cast the spells.

Edited by HeraldAlberich on Feb 5th 2024 at 3:47:19 PM

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#62292: Feb 5th 2024 at 1:20:32 PM

I don't think any red dragon would accept being polymorphed into something small and harmless. The instant you say "we're going to polymorph you into a newt" is the instant the battle is back on.

Polymorph has no saving throw and is not affected by spell resistance, but requires a willing recipient. Baleful Polymorph doesn't require a willing subject but can be negated by Spell Resistance (31 for Red Great Wyrm) and a Fortitude save (+32 for a Red Great Wyrm).

Shep55 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#62293: Feb 5th 2024 at 5:32:11 PM

I'm pretty sure Serini is so harsh on Soon now because he insisted on keeping to the oath to never talk to each other again. She's learned a lot about how to approach monsters as people, but still struggles with people who take things like oaths seriously.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#62294: Feb 5th 2024 at 7:30:06 PM

[up][up] Let's say, hypothetically, that this red dragon surrenders and submits to justice. If they are persuaded that the alternative is execution, they could voluntarily lower their spell resistance and decline a saving throw against baleful polymorph, or simply accept a regular polymorph. In such a state, they would be rendered... well, not exactly harmless, but certainly much less physically dangerous. Those spells don't alter mental stats, so they'd still be fiendishly smart, and they would have an aircraft carrier worth of hit points.

Of course, since they are also a powerful spellcaster, they could remove their own affliction at any time. So you'd need to find some way to permanently or semi-permanently lock out their magic — an anti-magic cell comes to mind. Of course, anti-magic would suppress the polymorph, so we're back to the original problem.

I'm trying to think of methods within the rules to do what we're attempting, leaving out epic magic (and wish/miracle) because it's pointless to discuss the limitations of an open-ended system. A geas, refreshed every time it expires note , could attempt to enforce good behavior, but dragons can easily tank 3d6 damage per day.

As far as the imprisonment seen in this dungeon, the spell temporal stasis does exactly what Serini describes, except for the "aware of one's own trapped nature for eternity" thing that must be some kind of house rule. Binding also has certain effects that could work, especially if all of the Scribble casters joined in. The Abjuration school has all kinds of nifty toys for this sort of thing.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 5th 2024 at 10:44:05 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#62295: Feb 5th 2024 at 7:43:21 PM

A Paladin's Oath — at least back in 3.5 ed — means that they have to do the right thing, not the pragmatic thing. And killing a surrendering opponent is not the right thing.

Maybe it's not the smartest thing to let a Red Dragon live even after they surrendered. But it's something a Paladin would do.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#62296: Feb 5th 2024 at 7:44:37 PM

Can you have multiple geas spells cast on you? If so you could stack up like fifty of them or whatever.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#62297: Feb 5th 2024 at 7:46:30 PM

[up][up]Quoting from the SRD:

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

It says nothing specific about accepting surrender, unless it is ruled to fall within the "act with honor" clause. You could also interpret "punish" as "imprison" rather than "kill", but it would be entirely dependent on the DM and/or setting.


[up] Nothing in the rules specifically prevents it, but D&D has a general rule that multiple similar effects don't stack unless they explicitly say so. I feel like casting multiple geas spells with the same condition would violate that in spirit, if not in letter.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 5th 2024 at 10:48:35 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#62298: Feb 5th 2024 at 7:50:43 PM

Not sure how it worked in 3.5, but as of 5th edition, no. Like with most D&D buffs / debuffs, only the strongest one applies.

That's gameplay stuff of course. Narratively, it's entirely possible to have a character subject to multiple geas.

It even has folklore roots. Cú Chulainn was screwed because of two different geas. He was forbidden from eating dog meat, and he was forbidden from refusing hospitality.

Then someone offered him a meal of dog meat.

[up]The surrendering stuff comes from the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Edited by M84 on Feb 5th 2024 at 11:51:53 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#62299: Feb 5th 2024 at 7:56:19 PM

We don't know if BoED is active in the OOTS setting, so it's not a slam dunk ruling.

If I were asked as a DM, I'd have no problem with multiple geas spells being cast on the same character as long as they had substantially different conditions. "Taking damage" is one of the explicit cases where multiple effects do stack, so if it happened that more than one geas condition were triggered simultaneously, each could inflict 3d6 damage.

But, as I said, I wouldn't let someone cast geas twenty times on the same character with the same condition so they take 60d6 damage each time they violate it. That's almost as cheap as the commoner railgun.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 5th 2024 at 10:58:39 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#62300: Feb 5th 2024 at 7:57:19 PM

There's another bit in the Paladin SRD about not killing whenever possible. The moment Calder surrendered, the fight was over. It was possible to avoid killing him.

Edited by M84 on Feb 5th 2024 at 11:58:16 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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