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OP edited to make this header - Fighteer
edited 18th Sep '17 1:08:08 PM by Fighteer
Without knowing how the trap works, it’s hard to tell. If all it takes is getting Sunny to close their eye before Calder gets it in his head to fly out of the chamber, one dispel magic from V or Durkon will end the fight. (That seems too easy for such a big set piece as this.) But if subjecting the trap to antimagic has disabled it in some more permanent way, it depends on if V and Serini can fix it while under fire (literally) from the dragon. Otherwise they might well have to kill him.
Edited by HeraldAlberich on Feb 4th 2024 at 10:48:06 AM
We’ve gotten no indication of how Calder feels about other dragons, of any color including his own, besides that he forces people to worship him in a “dragon cult.” Maybe he thinks other races should worship all dragons and not mass-murder them, or maybe he doesn’t care and would perhaps like to loot some of those black dragons’ hoards for his own. Who knows?
Not necessarily: it may just mean that he considers his imprisonment—which, as it turned out, involved being held immobile but aware—to be worse than death.
I would imagine that the confrontation happened well before the business of the Gates—after all, the Scribbles split up as part of the latter.
If I may, it's nice to encounter someone else who feels that way. ^_^
Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Feb 4th 2024 at 6:48:11 PM
My Games and Asset PacksYou don't forfeit the right to be alive merely by being evil, no. You forfeit it by actively doing evil, such that killing you is the only way to stop a clear and present danger.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 4th 2024 at 12:24:20 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!":)
Also Fighteer we're literally discussing a situation where Calder surrendered and thus there were options for how to prevent him from doing a cult again besides the murder. Like, say, the thing the Scribblers actually did. You're discussing a different thing now.
Also you aren't describing forfeiture of right to life—or rather, maybe you are, but your justification only backs up killing with no other choice. A forfeiture of right to life would mean it's okay to kill you even if unneccessary to stop you; you have no right to life anymore, there's nothing to balance against to produce 'lethal action against you is okay if it's the only solution'.
Like, am I just having a weird amount of difficulty? I really cannot follow you at all, is that just me or is there somevreal disconnect here?
Mostly does better things now. Key word mostly. Writes things, but you'll never find them. Or you can ask.
I believe Fighteer is emphasizing "he's an ancient red dragon" not because red dragons are always evil and can't be redeemed, but because ancient red dragons are extremely powerful and can't really be disarmed. It would be difficult to imprison him or otherwise make certain he doesn't break the surrender and cause further death and destruction as soon as he changes his mind.
Sure, and they had to And I Must Scream him to pull it off, which he claims is no better than death. I'm not sure I disagree with him there. It's incredibly difficult to end the threat posed by a dragon without slaying it, and as we see here, even if you do, that's probably just going to result in Sealed Evil in a Can, someday to be uncorked and become someone else's problem. Maybe that's enough to pursue a nonlethal solution, but you have to wonder if just killing Calder would have been a mercy compared to what actually happened, in addition to ending his threat for all time.
"but I do think that just by being alive, one has a right to life, and that isn't forfeit by being evil."
Allow me to disagree. I don't believe in the real life existence of evil creatures, but if I could be convinced that they exist, I would be all for exterminating them.
I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.![]()
Oh, yeah—like I said before, I actually don't know if trapping somebody frozen and unaware abd unthinking is really any better than killing them. In a setting with an afterlife, one could argue it's even worse—it may as well be temporary cessation of existence. And of course since Calder wasn't unaware and unthinking, that's another thing, and at least he himself would have preferred death to it. (Of course, the Scribblers didn't know that'd be what happened.)
So if stasis and death were the only options on the table, you could argue death would still be better... But I'm not sure those were the literal only two options they had? I'm not super well-versed in Epic 3.5 stuff but there were a lot of tools between all their casters. One could still argue death would be best in the circumstances, but it'd be a different argument than that death is the only option.
Edited by RaichuKFM on Feb 4th 2024 at 5:20:59 AM
Mostly does better things now. Key word mostly. Writes things, but you'll never find them. Or you can ask.There's also the conundrum in that if, when faced with a genuine surrender, one chooses to kill their captive specifically because they're too powerful to otherwise easily contain, that ultimately amounts to killing because it's more convenient to oneself than not killing, and not because the situation legitimately calls for it. Especially if the captive is a being who was born that way.
That's the kind of caveat that would probably lead a Paladin to choose to spare a being like a dragon. Doing the right thing even when it's hard to do so it kind of what they're about. Heck, I can't think of any reason a Paladin would choose to kill a prisoner if the only argument against was "we can't contain or disarm them."
Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 4th 2024 at 9:02:33 AM
Not exactly. It's actually more like the opposite. Being a paladin means being very sure and confident of the things you are going to do through keeping in mind whatever right and wrong means in your setting, and only breaking from that surety if you have a very good reason.
You don't have to act perfectly all the time unless you'll fall. You don't even have to act good all the time. You just have to not break your oath or do anything "evil."
So you're not going to have much difficulty playing a Paladin normally, unless your definition of "playing normally" is "do whatever I want to whoever I want without consequences." Plus, killing a prisoner isn't something a player is generally going to do accidentally.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 4th 2024 at 10:18:41 AM
Dragons, especially red ones, are known for being fiercely intelligent, so any surrender must be assumed to be part of a subterfuge. It's more than that, though. If you spare them, regardless of the reason, you become accountable for any harm they do afterwards. The villagers who are presently on fire and/or being eaten won't thank you for your moral stance.
If there were a way to depower a dragon so that its threat is legitimately removed, allowing it to undergo some kind of rehabilitation arc, then sure. But as the black dragon pointed out to V many books ago, a human or elf deprived of magic is just a meat sack, while a dragon is still a death machine.
To be clear, I don't mean to say that chromatic dragons should never be shown mercy. I just take issue with this being the place Soon decided to draw a moral red line, especially in context with his later actions.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 5th 2024 at 9:15:40 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!">In a setting with afterlife, is stasis any better than death?
Remember that evil afterlives and good afterlives are very different. An eternity of suffering can easily be argued to be worse than cessation of existence, and an eternity of mindlessness can also be argued to be equivalent to it.
Edited by Medinoc on Feb 5th 2024 at 3:29:36 PM
"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

@Raichu: Tbh this is just why Pathfinder started to move away from "racial alignment" thing even before OGL debacle removed alignment as mechanic. It makes for weird conversations