TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The Order of the Stick

Go To

This is the thread for discussion of The Order of the Stick plot, characters, etc. We have a separate thread for discussing game rules and mechanics. Excessive rules discussions here may be thumped as off-topic.

OP edited to make this header - Fighteer

edited 18th Sep '17 1:08:08 PM by Fighteer

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#59776: Jul 7th 2022 at 4:52:00 PM

A sketch of Xykon kicking Redcloak in the butt means nothing. That's literally just their relationship. Always has been; At least, since Xykon weaponized Redcloak's propensity for Sunk Cost Fallacy by getting him to murder Right-Eye for nothing.

Xykon loves to punch down, and Redcloak's is one of his favorite faces to hit.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 7th 2022 at 4:52:41 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#59777: Jul 7th 2022 at 5:08:06 PM

In fairness, it has been pretty heavily implied that Xykon has some idea that Redcloak isn’t being entirely forthcoming and honest with him about The Plan. He did put...Goth Girl, the name escapes me for the moment, up to the task of researching the spell behind Redcloak’s back and feigned ignorance when Redcloak brought it up.

Redcloak:By the way, I found her waving around your half of the ritual around. Do you know anything about that?

Xykon:...No.

Redcloak: Huh. Odd.

That moment always stuck in my head because it meant that her research wasn’t a matter of “Hey, I need somebody to look at this and I don't care about what Redcloak thinks about my stuff” but more of a matter of “Listen, you need to do this one thing, hope I don’t have to tell you to not let Redcloak know”. It was deliberate deception rather then just spiteful self-centeredness.

Also, hey, Zennistrad! Didn’t know you read this comic!

Edited by fredhot16 on Jul 7th 2022 at 8:27:20 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#59778: Jul 7th 2022 at 6:33:28 PM

That's the thing about Xykon. Everything he does is petty and cruel...but sometimes it's also clever.

Disgusted, but not surprised
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#59779: Jul 7th 2022 at 7:26:02 PM

[up]

He lived to a to a fairly old age before being turned into a lich - villains normally don't live that long by being dumb.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#59780: Jul 7th 2022 at 7:51:15 PM

Xykon was basically like a Warhammer 40k Ork. Brutally cunning and cunningly brutal. As shown when he defeated Eugene's mentor by beating him to death with his own Wizzy Award.

Edited by M84 on Jul 7th 2022 at 10:52:56 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#59781: Jul 7th 2022 at 8:24:00 PM

And lazy, let's not forget that. I just realized that his way of trying to find out more about the ritual is to make somebody else do the research! XD

It actually raises a fascinating question: when did Xykon start suspecting that there are more details to The Plan then what's he been told?

I'd say when he actually heard The Plan, he bought it, but sometime before he became a lich and broke Redcloak, he began preparing for Redcloak's betrayal with his little mind trick over TTID.

It's like he thinks that Redcloak will follow him and go forward with The Plan: Xykon Edition but he also suspects that The Plan does have something hidden to help ensure that Xykon is going to be burning in every level of the Seven Hells when all's said and done.

Edited by fredhot16 on Jul 7th 2022 at 8:37:42 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#59782: Jul 7th 2022 at 8:28:09 PM

He probably did suspect it for a while, but prior to finding Tsukiko he didn't have anyone he could pass off the work. As you said, he's lazy.

Disgusted, but not surprised
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#59783: Jul 7th 2022 at 8:32:54 PM

Redcloak still has his real phylactery and he's still in the dark about it, so Redcloak still holds the advantage even if Xykon does know more than he's letting on.

Xykon's train of thought is probably something like, "I know he's pulling a fast one, but I still need him and I can crush him like a bug with my unmatched arcane might when the time comes. Speaking of crushing things with unmatched arcane might, is that a squirrel that's still breathing?" foosh

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#59784: Jul 7th 2022 at 8:40:42 PM

Don't forget that Xykon also charmed the Monster in the Darkness to eat Redcloak if Redcloak threatened his phylactery.

Disgusted, but not surprised
RaichuKFM Nine thousand nine hundred eighty-two reasons. from Where she's at Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Nine thousand nine hundred eighty-two reasons.
#59785: Jul 7th 2022 at 8:55:11 PM

Right, but Xykon expecting Redcloak to try and betray him back then really doesn't establish that he expected the ritual not to do what he was told it would back then.

Mostly does better things now. Key word mostly. Writes things, but you'll never find them. Or you can ask.
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#59786: Jul 7th 2022 at 9:11:56 PM

what are 3.5 rules regarding saves against ongoing charms, purely out of speculation?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#59787: Jul 7th 2022 at 9:13:49 PM

[up][up]It seemed less like he expected Redcloak to betray him and more of a contingency plan just in case. He is otherwise fairly confident that Redcloak will never have the spine to truly turn against him after Redcloak killed Right-Eye just to avoid admitting he was wrong.

Xykon for the most part doesn't take Redcloak too seriously as a potential threat since he is aware of Redcloak's character flaws. He doesn't believe Redcloak is capable of growing past said flaws enough to actually work up the courage to turn against Xykon.

Edited by M84 on Jul 8th 2022 at 12:15:51 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#59788: Jul 8th 2022 at 1:53:39 AM

Redcloak still has his real phylactery and he's still in the dark about it, so Redcloak still holds the advantage even if Xykon does know more than he's letting on.

Redcloak holds an advantage, but when he previously tried to pull "stop hurting us, or the phylactery gets it", Xykon replied "Go ahead, and see how well that works out for you".

Destroying the phylactery accomplishes nothing but make it theoretically possible to kill Xykon, once you get past the whole "nigh unkillable epic sorcerer" bit.

Will29 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#59789: Jul 8th 2022 at 3:31:23 AM

Yes. Destroying the phylactery just means he won't respawn days later. It does nothing against the currently alive active Xykon (except really pissing him off). It's a horcrux, not the One Ring.

And having it doesn't mean being able to destroy it. The thing's full of protective magic. But to be fair, if someone knows how to get around the abjurations on the thing, it's Redcloak.

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#59790: Jul 8th 2022 at 5:25:51 AM

Xykon almost definitely expects some foul play from Redcloak. He knew enough to send Tsukiko to investigate the matter and he knows she died doing it. But lacking the means to get the info on his own (lacking the knowledge ranks to study Redcloak's half of the ritual) means he can't do shit.

At the very least, he resents Redcloak for having managed to convince him to waste his time in Azure City for months and that's the main reason for his constant demeaning of him since then. He has to remind the goblin of who is in charge and he'll use every childish method he can think of just to make that clear.

HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#59791: Jul 8th 2022 at 5:29:31 AM

He probably did suspect it for a while, but prior to finding Tsukiko he didn't have anyone he could pass off the work. As you said, he's lazy.

Is he lazy (I mean, yeah he is, but), or does he know his limits and when to outsource? As a wizard and a cleric, Tsukiko had the theoretical background and training to interpret the ritual Xykon doesn’t, and despite his disdain for wizards he’s smart enough to know that. “I was expelled from some of the best wizard academies in the South, you know.”

[nja] a bit.

Edited by HeraldAlberich on Jul 8th 2022 at 8:32:36 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#59792: Jul 8th 2022 at 5:59:52 AM

what are 3.5 rules regarding saves against ongoing charms, purely out of speculation?

It depends on the spell, but broadly speaking, charm and compulsion effects allow a new saving throw if the victim is told (or forced) to do something that is fundamentally against their nature. Depending on the spell/ability, succeeding at such a saving throw either breaks it or allows the victim to refuse the specific action.

I have looked through the D&D 3.5 SRD and there are no spells in this family that would permanently compel the MitD to act as Xykon wishes, even if you twist their meaning around. At a very minimum the compulsion would have to be renewed from time to time. We don't see Xykon doing this on-panel and so either it is a homebrewed spell or he's recasting it offscreen every few weeks.

I don't really expect the MitD to succeed at a Will save against Xykon, though.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 8th 2022 at 10:38:26 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#59793: Jul 8th 2022 at 6:40:39 AM

Thinking about it further, Xykon doesn't even know what his own half of the ritual does. He simply gave it to Tsukiko, told her to tell him what it would do when used, but didn't think that she also needed to know that there was a second half that would give her the whole picture, something she only figured out when the Mit D off-handedly mentionned it.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#59794: Jul 8th 2022 at 6:42:14 AM

[up][up] The Monster in the Darkness's nature has been shifting unbeknownst to Team Evil. That may well make the difference if/when Xykon tries to enforce his compulsion.

[down]Hence "may"

Edited by sgamer82 on Jul 8th 2022 at 7:42:48 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#59795: Jul 8th 2022 at 7:41:58 AM

[up] Of course that is correct, but because we don't know exactly what the MitD is nor how Xykon's compulsion spell works, we cannot use any rules-based logic to anticipate the outcome.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 8th 2022 at 10:42:11 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RaichuKFM Nine thousand nine hundred eighty-two reasons. from Where she's at Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Nine thousand nine hundred eighty-two reasons.
#59796: Jul 8th 2022 at 11:30:58 AM

Maybe a minor point, but Xykon definitely wasn't asking Tsukiko to research Redcloak's half of the ritual, it was specifically his own half. He didn't even tell her that it was only a half, despite definitely knowing that; the Monster in the Darkness spotted it. And Tsukiko realized herself the other half was divine, she wasn't told that, so if Xykon was trying to leverage her theurgy mysticality he didn't really do a great job of it.

Wait Resileafs already said most of this, and that was definitely there before I wrote this comment. Oh well.

Edited by RaichuKFM on Jul 8th 2022 at 2:31:42 PM

Mostly does better things now. Key word mostly. Writes things, but you'll never find them. Or you can ask.
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#59797: Jul 8th 2022 at 11:43:25 AM

We all suffer the brain farts.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#59798: Jul 8th 2022 at 11:45:25 AM

Yeah, that always confused me. Why would Xykon feel it necessary to cover that up with Redcloak?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#59799: Jul 8th 2022 at 11:46:53 AM

I don't think having the phylactery gives him even significant leverage over Xykon, honestly. Can't he just make another one? Even if not, it's difficult to put the thing to use for Redcloak since he definitely can't defeat Xykon by himself.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#59800: Jul 8th 2022 at 11:50:06 AM

I feel like that might be less about what Redcloak can actually do and what he tells himself he can do. We saw with Tsukiko he's convinced himself he's the one really in control even if only subtly. That's not actually true, and something will likely happen to hammer that point in deeper, but that's the mindset that Redcloak has to be in to keep things going.


Total posts: 64,800
Top