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Avatar: The Last Airbender/The Legend of Korra

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Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#12976: Nov 4th 2022 at 11:29:29 AM

The base assumption, as said by Iroh and Zuko, is that the Avatar being seen defeating Ozai is seen as divine judgement, whether as anyone else does not hold the religious reputation and thus their victory would be seen merely as a political power grab. It’s not just about defeating Ozai, but making sure he doesn’t have imitators. Especially since the Avatar has been absent for 100 years and needs to prove they are still relevant to this world. If Ozai looks like the target of a coup, then he might have enough followers to whip up into a coup of his own. But if the setting’s equivalent of the Buddha himself kicks his butt, then it sends the message to everyone that Ozai is condemned by the heavens themselves and don’t try anything like him if you don’t want divine wrath.

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#12977: Nov 4th 2022 at 12:03:39 PM

[up]But doesn't the expanded universe sort of make it clear that that didn't actually work?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#12978: Nov 4th 2022 at 12:07:15 PM

It didn't eliminate all problems and tensions but that was never feasible. The question is would such tensions be worse if someone besides Aang stopped Ozai. Obviously we don't know the answer to that definitively but that's what the characters were going with, and I can understand the reasoning behind it.

Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#12979: Nov 4th 2022 at 12:32:08 PM

I would have personally liked to have seen the Order of the White Lotus revealed to have been doing something to justify their existence. As it is, they were just a name that got tossed around a few times until we found out that a number of the friendly adult characters Team Avatar encountered were members.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#12980: Nov 4th 2022 at 12:37:42 PM

I think the Order of the White Lotus would have been better used if they had to face a group like the Red Lotus that appeared Korra as their opposite

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lycropath Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#12981: Nov 4th 2022 at 12:41:32 PM

The Order of the White Lotus isn't exactly global police force or formal army, just a secret society of pai-sho players.

deuteragonist Since: Dec, 2013
#12982: Nov 4th 2022 at 12:46:33 PM

The base assumption, as said by Iroh and Zuko, is that the Avatar being seen defeating Ozai is seen as divine judgement, whether as anyone else does not hold the religious reputation and thus their victory would be seen merely as a political power grab.

Yeah and I say it all of the time: Iroh is completely wrong.

For one, a coup is basically what did happen. The comics go out of their way to show that many Fire Nation citizens completely rejected Zuko as Fire Lord because of the fact that he allied himself with various nations to usurp both his father and sister. And even if that happened without Aang, the only people that would care about this sort of thing is the Fire Nation. The rest of world would completely rejoice, just as they did in the actual canon finale.

But more importantly, the confrontation in question between Iroh vs Ozai would have happened as his brother is trying to incinerate an entire continent. If Iroh had defeated Ozai with the help of the greatest fighters in the world, the war would literally be over and millions of people would have been spared from burning to death. Prisoners would be freed, colonies would be liberated, and many lives, including many Fire Nation citizens, would be spared.

Why would anyone but Ozai's deranged followers see this as a political power grab?

Like yeah, Aang was the best case scenario, but the worst thing that could have possibly happened is the Fire Nation having its own civil war. To which the rest of the entire world would just look at the Fire Nation and just say..."Whelp tongue".

Edited by deuteragonist on Nov 4th 2022 at 12:50:24 PM

lycropath Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#12983: Nov 4th 2022 at 12:53:01 PM

I can see why liberating Ba Sing Sei is the stratagem of the day, doubts of their ability to defeat Ozai aside, seizing power in Earth Kingdom to give the rest of the world a fighting chance again after the comet passes seems like a better move then fighting their way to the heart of the Fire Nation and trying to hold the capital.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#12984: Nov 4th 2022 at 12:58:17 PM

[up][up] Iroh being supported by members of the Water Tribe, Earth Kingdom and renegade Fire Nation members would feed into the idea that Iroh is a puppet ruler. And Iroh is getting old, to the point he doubts if he could defeat Ozai in single combat. So it would be a much more bloodier civil war whereas with Aang and Zuko... Well, do you want to argue with a Physical God who can crush you like an ant?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#12985: Nov 4th 2022 at 1:02:02 PM

I'm actually curious how much older is Iroh than his brother?

It seems like they have a rather big age difference?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#12986: Nov 4th 2022 at 1:04:06 PM

Give or take 20 years.

Wake me up at your own risk.
TheMountainKing Since: Jul, 2016
#12987: Nov 4th 2022 at 1:06:23 PM

[up]x5 I think it's a fair assumption that Iroh doesn't want the Fire Nation to have a civil war, because that would result in a lot of people dying.

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#12988: Nov 4th 2022 at 2:11:18 PM

Indeed, Iroh's goals pre-Aang waking up are ambiguous. In retrospect, to the extent it's consistent, my guess is that he wants to redeem and shape his nation by shaping Zuko into someone who can do that and putting him on the throne.

He missed his window to prevent Ozai from taking the throne without a massive civil war (which he might well lose and which would definitely leave the Fire Nation vulnerable to rebellions and reprisals), probably due to emotional reasons. Azula is, or at least is believed to be, sociopathic and definitely is fanatically loyal to Ozai (which sort of contradicts sociopathic, but let's step away from that lightning rod quickly).

Which, unless he's willing to entertain truly wild reorderings of Fire Nation society, which I see no evidence of, or remarry and have more children, which he seems unwilling/uninterested in, that leaves Zuko.

Playing it out if the Avatar didn't return from Iroh's perspective (he doesn't know about proposals to burn down entire continents, instead the expectation would be that the comet would be used to smash the Northern Water Kingdom defenses, or conquer Ba Sing Se, neither of which really matters for his plan...Zuko cannot complete his quest, but does eventually grow into a calmer, wiser young man and the very skilled bender we know he can be. Azula is presumably her father's heir. Perhaps he could train Zuko to overcome her, or perhaps a group of White Lotus masters could ambush and assassinate her. Either way, if done right, either an Agni Ki or an assassination, Ozai is left with only his son to inherit, unless he remarries and has more children (which he also seems totally uninterested in).

Alternatively, his goals may have been far more minor, just protect and raise his nephew as best he could, given his failure to do so for his son. The actual extent and goals of the White Lotus in the absence of an avatar are pretty ambiguous.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#12989: Nov 4th 2022 at 3:22:10 PM

Given that the Fire Nation is in a genocide campaign, it falling to civil war doesn't sound bad, honestly.

Wake me up at your own risk.
lycropath Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#12990: Nov 4th 2022 at 3:33:09 PM

No one knew that the Fire Nation had planned on genociding the Earth Kingdom til Zuko had revealed they where.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#12991: Nov 4th 2022 at 3:39:08 PM

It was also Azula and Ozai's idea remember?

They only came up with it from what we usee a few months (?) Before the actual Comet.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#12992: Nov 4th 2022 at 4:12:20 PM

[up][up][up]Not to you, me, or their enemies. To a man raised in the Fire Nation, who commanded their armies and was friends, allies, comrades with presumably hundreds of other loyal Fire Nation soldiers? Who would have to take up arms against his brother and might well end up having to fight and kill his niece and nephew?

EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#12993: Nov 4th 2022 at 5:48:21 PM

"The Day of Black Sun" in a real-world scenario would have been far from an Instant-Win Condition, as the absolute best chance would have been to capture the palace and upper officials including Ozai and probably hold out against a siege for a few days while they negotiate terms of armistice. There was simply no way a fighting force that small, however elite, could hope that a defeated leader would result in a peaceful surrender. "Sozins' Comet" on the other end had presented a scenario that optimized a largely peaceful transition of power and end to the war without open massacre. Iroh's statement about not being sure he could defeat Ozai or that his victory would be seen as a royal family power grab holds true, as without added planning and foresight they had to improvise the best situation possible in the moment.

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#12994: Nov 4th 2022 at 5:59:45 PM

There's also the question of what would Aang have done if he did meet Ozai when the fire was off. Just try to beat him up but not kill him?

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
TheMountainKing Since: Jul, 2016
#12995: Nov 4th 2022 at 6:50:23 PM

[up] It's not clear, especially because they didn't have Zuko on their side, so we don't know what their plan for the Fire Nation would be if Ozai was out of the picture. It does bring up an interesting point, which is that a lot of people talk like "should I kill Ozai?" was an internal conflict Aang struggled with for the whole show, when it was actually only introduced in the series finale.

The real answer is that the writers didn’t worry about it because they knew that Aang wouldn't confront Ozai at that point.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Nov 4th 2022 at 9:53:43 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#12996: Nov 4th 2022 at 7:04:23 PM

If we're talking about whether or not Aang actually had to be the one to beat Ozai or not I feel like the Day of Black Sun is a much better discussion point.

It always seemed strange to me that they were apparently still expecting some titanic battle to occur when the entire point was that the Fire Nation would be (mostly) powerless.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 4th 2022 at 9:04:48 AM

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#12997: Nov 4th 2022 at 7:10:24 PM

[up]I thought they expected a titanic battle to get in position for the hammerstroke during the eclipse and to hold the ground they'd taken thereafter.

Now, this doesn't actually make that much sense given the timeframe they were operating under as any reasonably sized forces couldn't have snuck up on the Fire Nation capital and if the Earth Kingdom could have invaded the Fire Nation without the help of the eclipse (which they'd have to for the battle at the capital to occur during it) then they would have already.

ETA: Though I don't think we know what the actual plan was going to be? Been a while since I saw those episodes. If they planned to try to lure Ozai and company out of the capital, with some sort of offer to negotiate, or challenge, that might make more sense.

Edited by ECD on Nov 4th 2022 at 7:11:22 AM

Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#12998: Nov 5th 2022 at 3:50:50 PM

I do not get why this franchise is churning out comics. Shit should be like GI Joe.

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#12999: Nov 5th 2022 at 3:52:34 PM

Because they are popular and people actually like them, despite what some people claim?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#13000: Nov 5th 2022 at 3:54:06 PM

There's a demand and they're supplying,seems fairly obvious

have a listen and have a link to my discord server

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