Naruto kind of sucks by comparison, and that's by design, because he's a relatable plucky underdog with a nuke in his stomach.
EDIT: I thought there was a Japanese mythological thing justifying the eyes and there isnt. I apologize for my mistake.
Edited by AegisP on Apr 9th 2025 at 12:12:24 PM
As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.Again, it was 3 years because that's when Japanese kids go to high school.
I'd hardly say Naruto learns nothing. He's much improved from where he was before, it just pales in comparison because Sasuke improved so much more. Ironically, this is the same issue Kakashi said Sasuke was having around the hospital fight.
In an unfortunate way, the story inadvertently validates Sasuke's abandoning Konoha.
Because he spent years training body and mind during his walking hours, and learned at the hands of the village's best Jounin, mastering his signature technique in record time.
Yet Hard Work Hardly Works, and all his efforts make him no closer to Itachi's level than he was during the night of the massacre.
And it is clear that had Sasuke stayed in Konoha this would not have changed.
So Sasuke's only option if he wanted to stay was to abandon his rightful vengeance, because otherwise it would be impossible for him to achieve it.
Edited by jawal on Apr 9th 2025 at 9:27:08 AM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurtThat would be if Sasuke's quest for revenge wasnt a terrible thing he needed to get over, he got all that power and he killed him and that turned out be ,surprise surprise, a really empty and sad victory. Heck, even with all that power, Itachi had to pretty much commit suicide instead of there being any genuine victory or triumph.
EDIT: Another thing. Remember Naruto ALSO left the village, and Sakura stayed and improved 355%.
Edited by AegisP on Apr 9th 2025 at 1:45:13 AM
As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
x2
It's weird because Sasuke's revenge isn't hollow because revenge is hollow. It's hollow because everything Sasuke knew about the situation was wrong. It's a weird situation because Sasuke might never have found out about the truth if he had stayed. But, that leads to a whole tree filled with butterflies.
The short issue is that if Itachi was a serial killer who might one day come after him like he and everyone else thought, Sasuke probably would feel pretty relieved on some level if he died.
and
x3
Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura often seem "behind the curve" when it comes to information about the world, techniques, or power. Sometimes it makes sense because it allows the audience to get information (like learning about the ninja system or the sage of six paths, chakra control/elements, etc). However, sometimes it can feel like their lagging behind their peers when it happens repeatedly.
Edited by Freshwater on Apr 9th 2025 at 5:19:08 AM
Some of the Amagi Naruto fanfics are meh. Some of them are quite interesting.
What if Itachi made a different choice?
Not really? Sasuke got hit with like a triple whammy of inadequacy ( two of which deliberate), but overall his growth as a ninja was just as fast in Konoha. Comparing him to Itachi at that point is kind of meaningless because Itachi was on par with Sannin. The gap was always vast, and after siding with Orochimaru, it was still just as vast. Sasuke in the end still could not beat Itachi, despite choosing the path of "power". As much as Sasuke is the last one standing, Itachi ultimately ran circles around Sasuke. In the end it was not actually a close fight.
First it's Itachi, so after he gets his revenge it's the Hokage, and then it's all Kage, and then it's everyone.
Is this something Kishimoto has said? besides, the story isn't about going to school, so that makes the timeskip idea only worse.
Edited by devak on Apr 10th 2025 at 5:28:12 PM
x3
Right, revenge should be hollow and unreasonable. But, with Sasuke that's not what happened.
He thought his revenge was against Itachi and only Itachi because Itachi murdered his family. There wasn't any mission creep. It wasn't until he found out about all the bizarre conspiracy stuff and put under Obito's wing that he actually went after anyone else.
Even then, Danzo and company were directly responsible for his family's death. Danzo ordered the killing and convinced Itachi to do it. So, it's not like his mission changed (i.e. kill the person who directly killed his family). He even mentions feeling some sense of justice after killing Danzo.
Edited by Freshwater on Apr 10th 2025 at 11:34:04 AM
Yeah, he does go off the deep end. But, a lot of that has more to do with Sasuke being kind of dumb and a moral absolutist. Alongside, being lied to repeatedly about who did what and why.
Once Sasuke gets to recocile with Itachi and hear about the history of the leaf during the war arc, he's still evil, but he's not motivated by revenge.
It's also weird because killing Danzo was the correct decision. Sasuke's revenge is wrong passed that point but it doesn't really explore what the right way is when it comes to Itachi and Danzo.
Edited by Freshwater on Apr 10th 2025 at 11:55:03 AM
But... this is blatantly not true. Itachi spends a considerable amount of effort to convince him of this, and then Obito gaslights him some more, but neither would have had to spend so much effort to convince Sasuke if this were true.
Sasuke cares, a lot, that's kind of the entire crux of the problem for Itachi.
I don't know about that, Sasuke entire family and clan were killed I am not sure how he can "get over it".
we are not talking about a childish argument in school that Sasuke had to just forget and live on, if his ordeal is not a valid reason to revenge, then I honestly don't know what it is, unless one think that avenging/bringing justice is never justified, period. No buts or ifs, even against a mass murderer we need to forget and forgive.
Which is a sentiment that I am afraid I can't understand or agree with, there is actions that derserve punishment and vichims who deserve justice.
I said it before but Sasuke is the one who has the more justified Freudian Excuse in the series.
.............
I am not sure how this math works, but anyway Sakura was still weaker than both Naruto and Sasuke, let alone Itachi, so I don't think this proove that staying in the village is just as valid way to power than leving it.
Also, Sakura was partly motivated to ask Tsunade for aprentichip becasue Sasuke left the village and she felt useless
...............
How? Being a genuis doesn't mean you can advance infinitly or conjure power from thin air, here it just mean that you learn fast and that you can find new and creative ways to apply what you learned.
You still need guides and teachers to advance.
The only theorical people who could train Sasuke are Tsunade and Jiraiya, but neither of them expressed interest in training Sasuke, and it isn't clear how much he knew about them
................
This is true, Like Naruto and Sakura knowing nothing of the Uchiha massacre, to the point that Sakura who spent her time obessessing with/stalking Sasuke, doesn't realize that saying something like "orphans are lucky because they have no one to tell them what to do" is not the best way to gain Sasuke's affection.
Or how Sasuke never heard of Madara, his legendary ancestor.
..............
After learning all thet Kakachi (the vilalge top Jounin) has to teach him and mastering his best technnique, he was still unable to defeat Naruto or Gaara.
Hours after releasing the second Orochimaru's seal he fought and won over Naruto (although it was a close fight).
Three years later after both he and Naruto studied under a Sannin, the two boys met at Orochimaru's lair, and Sasuke is clearly the superior fighter.
So his defection to Orichimaru did pay of and he gained powers that he will not have achived by contnuing training with Kakachi or going on C-missions to fight bandits for Konoha.
..................
Just for nitpicking, Itachi was stronger than the Sannin as Orochimaru himself admitted.
True he escaped from Jiraiya, but it is clear to me that he looking for an oportunity to "fail" the Akatsuki's mission and avoid actually hurting Naruto or Sasuke.
................
This is an exageration, while Itach may indeed have held back in their ultimate showdown, the "gap" was not "just as vast".
There is no comparison between Sasuke and Itachi "fight" in part one or their confrontation in Shippuden, Sasuke has become quite powerful as Itachi himself admitted.
Remember that Itachi himself wanted to die at the hands of Sasuke, but only once the latter become strong enough to carry on his vision of a new and ideal Uchiha.
Sasuke prooved that to Itachi in their fight as he did before by defeating both Dideara and Orichimaru, and as he will prove it later by becoming even more powerful than Itachi.
All this was unlickly for Sasuke to acchive if he stayed in Konoha, if he did, his only option was to forget about Itachi, which he - and I sympathize - couldn't do.
Edited by jawal on Apr 10th 2025 at 10:33:15 AM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
No one asked Sasuke to forgive Itachi, and he WAS growing fond of his new friends and Found Family. He genuinely was getting over Itachi, but when he went to save Naruto, Itachi put him through Mind Rape and that's when Sasuke went "Fuck It, I need to leave and kill Itachi."
Sasuke Revenge doesn't really work with "Revenge is Hollow"
Sasuke has a bad habit of "and then what?" but thats less "Revenge is Bad" and more Sasuke doesn't really think it through
Shikamaru gets Revenge just fine and he feels like a million bucks
You can tell Kishi is struggling to keep Sasuke in the antagonist role when at the end the only way he can force a fight is Sasuke has decided to go for a Zero approval Gambit
Oda for the most part avoids the Shonen power curve issue of Training/Brickwalls instead opponents push the characters to their limits Luffy has for the most part only Two large training phases in story
Luffy is pretty much unbeatable in East blue even against arguable Arlong then Luffy starts getting progressively more and more beaten the hell out of him during fights once he hits the Grand line with Wapol being the sole exception... even Enel the guy he has type advantage nearly does him in
Fuck even FOXY fucks Luffy up badly
after sabody Luffy doesn't defeat anyone he majorly engages being forced to run or be nearly killed by
Then we get the Timeskip trainig and it kinda resets
Hody and Ceasar were never real threats
Doffy is the first real opponent to push Luffy and he still had Gear fourth as his trump card
its not till he brick walls at Kaido does luffy have to stop and learn new powers ...and get a lucky power up
Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Apr 10th 2025 at 2:54:55 AM
This is an outrage against Luminara!Sasuke's massive growth during the chunin exams is testament to the fact that he has incredible growth potential, not an argument against. The idea that Kakashi couldn't teach him anything else or that Sasuke could not find other teachers or that Sasuke couldn't train himself is completely at odds with literally the entire rest of the series. Especially when the explicit purpose of the Curse Mark (when he is in Konoha) is to stifle his natural abilities in favor of relying on said mark.
This is true by default since Konoha doesn't have the cursed seal, but that just makes it more of a moot point. Sasuke's growth during his brief tenure under Kakashi was explosive. Just because Naruto briefly caught up because he learned to tap into the power of a tailed beast, a being beyond literally any physical living ninja, doesn't mean that Sasuke could never catch up or find his own power. Not to mention that the Cursed Seal itself is explicitly a powerboost only, and yet Sasuke will go on to eclipse his Phase 2 Cursed Seal by several orders of magnitude without any teaching by Orochimaru.
Itachi, dying, was able to counter every single one of Sasuke's attacks and only didn't win because he explicitly wanted to lose. Itachi had him dead to rights and this was in a state where he was extremely weakened from his magic cancer. Sasuke was nowhere near beating a Sannin, yet Itachi could do so. They were not equals, a fact made all the clearer when a substantially *more* powerful Sasuke is still only barely on par with Itachi as they fight Kabuto, the same Itachi who was holding his ground against Nagato.
So actually, a major reason that the gap is closer is because Itachi was on the verge of dying when fighting Sasuke.
if Sasuke needs *that* much torture to comply, it is blatantly obvious that Sasuke is not empty inside and that this path isn't good. I don't know what else to tell you.
Edited by devak on Apr 11th 2025 at 4:42:58 PM
Yes he does.
I mean, who said otherwise? Sasuke is an incredibly talented and gifted individual who has within him the potential' to become one of the greatest ninjas in the world, and if he didn't have it, then all of his training with Orochimaru will not have served for anything.
But potential is just that, a possibility, it is not something that will automatically manifest and achieve perfection.
"If Sasuke stayed in the village, he will have become just as powerful as when he left to train with Orochimaru, because he has the potential. Right?"
No it is not right, Sasuke still needed training, guidance, and someone who taught him new techniques and showed him shortcuts, so that he could achieve that potential.
Otherwise, a teacher.
Potential is not an automatic process, like growing hair for children. When all you need to do is not die, and your hair will grow all alone, you need to work for it.
Real Life is full of people who are born with talent for science, arts, sports...etc, but becuase fate doesn't help them to get the training and education they need, their potential is never achieved and they die. obscure.
Even in the series, all the great Ninja got to where they are by having great teachers, not just relying on talent.
The Sanins trained under the Third, Nagato trained under Jiraiya, Obito trained under both the Fourth and Madara Uchiha...etc.
Or take for example Son Goku from Dragon Ball, who as a Sayian he has the potential to literally destroy Earth with his pinky. but he does not achieve that level of power by just sitting around, he travel the world looking for teachers (Eg; Master Roshi) to learn how to achive his potential.
If Son Goku did not have that born talent, he will not have become as powerful from Roshi's training, but if he did not train with Roshi he will have stayed just the same as he was in chapter 1.
Same with Sasuke, he hit a plateau in Konoha, if he stayed there for the next three years, he will maybe be.....let's say maybe a littel stronger than Neiji in Shippuden.
Which is a good level and will make him one of Konoha's best Jounins, but he certanly won't reach his full potential, and won't be able to achieve his objective (Kill Itachi).
Even if -for the sake of argument - he can unlock more power alone (he can't) then who know how many decades will pass before he succed, like littel good it will do him if he reach Orochimaru's level when he is 50 years old, I mean revenge is best served cold and all, but this will be iced.
No, Sasuke needed a better teacher to achieve his goal and reach his potential.
..................
Actually the reason Naruto started to surpass Sasuke was less him taping the Fox's power and more of him meating Jiraiya and learnig to 1) Summoning Gamabunta and 2) learnign the Rasingan.
For example in that fight on top of the hospital roof Naruto did not relay in the Fox Chakra and yet he was going to win thanks to the Rasingan.
Which add to my previous point about the importance of teachers for the growth of an individual.
....................
No this is still an exageration, if I was to quantify the difference in power between Saskuke and Itachi in their last showdown I will put it like 75-100.
But let's once again compare the two fights between the brothers.
In part one Chapter 146 the "fight" between Sasuke and Itachi start with...
Oops, that must hurt, but fear not people, Sasuke still has a second wind.
The End, this is all what trainig in Konoha allowed him to do, not being able to even land a punsh in Itachi let alone beat him.
...............
Let's come now to the Sippuden fight (chapters 384-412), Sasuke fought Itachi in Gengetsu, Taijetsu and Ninjetsu and he perfoormed admirably (it is actually one of the best fights of the series).
Itach has the adventage not only of experiance but also of the Magenkyou eyes which are stronger than the regular Sharingan.
Yet Sasuke with all the training and experience he gained during those three years, managed to defeat the Tsukyomi, to survice the Amaterasu, and to fight Itachi to a stand forcing him to use the Susano.
Sasuke failed at the end, and if Itachi was serious he could have won, But the difference was still narrower than 100-1,000,000 as Itachi (and Black Zetsu who watched the fight).
And while "magic cancer''' may have killed Itachi he is not what put him in this state with all those bruses and blood.
Sasuke was very unlickely to have been able to push Itachi this far if he had spent the last three years in Konoha guarding fat merchants.
But if you think "nuh, since Sasuke was still weaker than Itachi, and as such all his increace in power and accomplishments like killing Deidara are just academic trivia" or "Sasuke would have reached that level just as well by staying in Konoha" then -as you said- I don't know what else to tell you.
(Also Sasuke did beat a Sanin even if Orochimaru was not in his best condition then)
.....................
This is a mix up, the series doesn't in fact "end with Sasuke rejecting Itachi's worldview". This is a simplification of Sasuke's complex moral journey through the manga.
Sasuke has four objectives during different parts of the story.
1-Avenging his clan by punishing Itachi
2-Avenging his clan and Itachi against Danzo and those two elders (who sadly survived)
3-Punishing and destroying Konoha because they expolited and then discarded his village.
4-Take Over the World and focus all the hatred in his persona, while protecting the world from the darkness.
Sasuke did succed in one and two, so he did achive his revenge (or 50% of it if you count those two jerks) and although he will come to consider Itachi a victim of the system and to regret the pain he caused Naruto when he abandoned the village, he still think (and I agree) that his vengence was justified.
Sasuke abandoned number three after his talk with both Zombie Itashi and the First Hokage, he come to understand that the tragedy of his clan,(and his brother) were caused by more complex reasons that he tought at first, and he decided to grow up and try to fix the system instead of focusing only in himself.
This is the worldview that he abandoned at the end of the series, his epiphany is not "oh my Shinobi god, vengence is definitly bad, I should have just forgeted about my parents and all those other losers in my clan getting massacred in front of my eyes".
His Epiphany is "I should not take everything over my shoulders, and I should trust and form bonds with others to achieve a menanfull change and a happy ending".
Which actually is (as bith Naruto and Obito pointed out) what Itachi wanted him to do.
..............
Once again you put words in my mouth, I never said that Sasuke was "empty inside" nor do I think so .
Sasuke is focused in avenging his clan (which I think is justified) but having a goal does not make you empty inside.
People talk about how Sasuke feel that vengence is empy after killing Itachi because he know nothing of what to do with his life, as it is show from this expression.
This is false, this scen is immediatly after he woke up following the battle in Tobi's lair, he had like two seconds to process the fact that he won and killed Itachi before Tobi started talking about the past.
Sasuke did have another goal, he said it before, he want to resucite his clan, I am certain that if Obito did not find him first, Sasuke would eventually have made a new life to himself, married someone, have kids and tried to put the past behind him now that he avenged his clan.
He may even considered reconcillating with Naruto (and in fact if Tobi wasn't there, Naruto and the others would have found his unconcious body)
.....................
After this very short post , I am now thinking of two unrelated things.
1-All in all itachi's death is more sad than I rememberd.
2-There is an irony in Obito corrupting Sasuke in his dark lair, just as Madara did to him two decades earlier, this is because Sasuke is the reencarnation of Madara, so From a Certain Point of View even if Obito does not realize it, he is curropting his corrupter.
Edited by jawal on Apr 12th 2025 at 11:05:25 AM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurtYou don't have to explain to me what potential is. I already immediately followed it up with Sasuke displaying enormous growth, as well as enormous future growth post-orochimaru, making it obvious that other paths were very much available to him. His self-teaching already put him at the top of the class, meaning that unlike Naruto even if nobody ever taught him after the Massacre, he was still bound to be a top ninja.
I don't understand what you base this on. Sasuke wasn't finished growing after the Chunin Exams. he literally just demonstrated an incredible capacity for growth, then two sannin-level ninjas beat the crap out of him repeatedly to make him feel inferior, and this is somehow proof that only Orochimaru could make him grow? Even though post-orochimaru he also grew? you keep ignoring this.
He directly and explicitly only could do that because of the Fox's power. Only because of Kurama could he train enough to perform a Rasengan and summoning Gamabunta is again explicitly due to tapping into Kurama's power. This isn't even subtext, this is literally Jiraiya's entire training program, which he also explicitly states to Naruto. Jiraiya's entire purpose in coming to him and training him is *EXPLICITLY* to learn to use Kurama.
Itachi is also near-blind and already dying. Sasuke is a lot stronger but he isn't beating actual sannin.
He beat Orochimaru because his soul transfer jutsu relies on a technicality, which Sasuke could exploit, in no small part because Orochimaru goes insane when he sees a Sharingan. If it were Jiraiya or Tsunade, he would've been dead. We know this for a fact because both in fact can fight Mangekyou users and come out on top. Sasuke isn't capable of beating an Orochimaru who is actually *fighting* but then this is also how Itachi trivially beats him with the Sharingan.
For clarification, this was not explicitly aimed at you but a continuation of the previous discussion about Sasuke's motives and goals. But it connects to Sasuke's character, namely that he very much could've set Itachi aside. He would not have struggled with the decision to leave Konoha otherwise, and this was - and you keep ignoring this - after the two most powerful people in the world (roughly, but it's the 2nd and 3rd if we ignore Nagato and Obito who were unknowns at this point) beat him up with the explicit purpose to feel weak and inferior.
Given that in their final showdown, Itachi toys with Sasuke to draw out Orochimaru, it's fairly obvious that Itachi didn't actually intend him to go to Orochimaru.
Oh hey look Itachi's worldview that was subsequently rejected. Sasuke's bitter pill is that he has to accept that the brother he looks up to was seriously flawed, but that pill is bitter in no small part because he spends so much effort chasing him (literally and later figuratively), being fed poison by Obito and doing a revenge quest against everyone.
I decided to check the fight. the blood from his mouth he coughs up (after a substantial fireball jutsu exchange) with no direct attack from Sasuke, and the blood from his eyes is from Amaterasu. The blood (here on his right hand) is from touching his bleeding eye. So actually, yes, a substantial portion of those injuries are self-inflicted.
Edited by devak on Apr 12th 2025 at 7:08:30 PM

It is also, IMHO, not a problem that Sasuke is more skilled, has more jutsu, or seems more impressive. That's basically his thing, Sasuke is the cool and skilled ninja. Naruto kind of sucks by comparison, and that's by design, because he's a relatable plucky underdog with a nuke in his stomach.
Sure but again, why have a 3-year timeskip when you don't want your character to learn anything during that timeskip. basically the entire reason people do timeskips is for shock value, and the only shock value timeskip Naruto gets is that he learned barely anything.
Yes i get that but this doesn't actually answer the question. Non-eye powers exist in Naruto all the time. the Rinnegan is explicitly an eye in the same vein all the other dojutsu are specifically *eye* powers. Say what you want about Mangekyou Sharingan but you need to *look* to use their special powers. Byakugan is specifically about 360 vision and long-range X-ray vision. Vision-based powers is what makes these, well, dojutsu.
That's what makes the Rinnegan stand out because it's neither thematically vision nor pragmatically vision, so what gives?