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No he isnít? Like what the fuck.
Vegeta is the shitty father in DB.
Edited by slimcoder on Sep 11th 2018 at 10:22:04 AM
When did Sasuke lie to Sakura so that he could go spend a year training instead of spending time with her, give a mass murderer a heal before he fought Sarada, or risk the universe that they all live in for a chance at good fights?
When did Sasuke die for his daughter twice?
He never had the chance to, so you can't hold that against him. I'm just saying, if spending years avoiding Sakura when he could have contacted her makes Sasuke abusive to Sakura, then Goku doing the same thing to Chi-Chi shouldn't be any different.
Hey Chi-Chiís no victim.
For one thing she lies about their financial situation to trick him into working.
Sure he should support his family but she actively lies to him that their poor & even when he becomes a successful farmer she still thinks heís a worthless good for nothing.
Plus she is the one who got him into marrying her by forcing on him a promise they made when they were children.
Edited by slimcoder on Sep 11th 2018 at 10:37:05 AM
Okay, I can accept their relationship as mutually abusive.
If we take the anime, Goku basically told Gohan to suck it up when Spopovitch was beating Videl to levels where a pulp would be an improvement, went off to get a Senzu bean, forgot about that and spent time stuffing his face until he remembered the woman his daughter loved was suffering horribly, waiting for him to return with something to heal her.
I do recall that Sasuke without any hesitation dove in between very deadly knives aimed at Sarada and took a nasty hit for her. I don't think there's any hint whatsoever he wouldn't die for her if he had to without hesitation.
I had no idea Gohan was a woman.
No, that's Princess Trunks.
Wow, did I mess that one up.
Yeah the whole Videl thing kinda has nothing to do with anyoneís parenting ability.
Edited by slimcoder on Sep 11th 2018 at 10:47:32 AM
Allowing the woman your son loves to lie tortured after telling your son you'd help her isn't bad parenting?
Edited by IniuriaTalis on Sep 11th 2018 at 1:49:57 PM
I recall he was told to do nothing due to Shinís input.
I find it really funny that Sasuke is the one authority figure Boruto actually respects and looks up to.
As for his crimes... eh, it's hard for me to feel outraged about them, since they are pretty much chump changed compared to what is businesses as usual in shinobi world. The only difference is that Sasuke did it for personal reasons instead of doing it on behalf of a military dictatorship that brainwashes people into utter loyalty since birth.
On that note, I can't wait for Kawaki to destroy ninja world, because it's honestly kind of shitty place that should be eradicated.
"Does he deserve shit for betraying ditching the village whose leadership is on record for their garbage decisions, produced some of the most monstrous villains in the series, and taking care of a portion of said village's enemies and inadvertently saving the world with said village's hero? No to that as well."
While I agree people here are being a little too harsh on Sasuke, he didn't know about any of the poor decisions any of the hokage took note (and for the record, the only ones I really think are questionable are Hiruzen for sparing Orochimaru and trusting Danzo, and possibly Minato for not looking after his team better. But that's hardly a comdemnatory record; virtually everything else is largely a result of Madara being a massive dick, but he was never a hokage.).
All Sasuke knew is that the guy who tried to wreck his entire village and killed the Third could give him power, and went to him for that. I consider this a pretty serious betrayal, and a lot of the justification for it kind of has to ignore the context of who Orochimaru is. Heck, even the argument that Sasuke is doing it because he thinks he can't get stronger in the Hidden Leaf village is kind of undercut because this is partially in response to Naruto's rasengan being stronger than his Chidori - and Naruto was trained by the Leaf.
And yes, he doesn't actually manage to kill anyone innocent aside from a few guards in a situation, IIRC, intentionally provoked by Zetsu and Tobi to force the issue. (I believe Sasuke's initial plan was to wait for Danzo to leave and assassinate him).
But a lot of this is moral luck, really. Sasuke actually tries to kill innocents on multiple occasions. Even if we ignore that he might be preparing to use Kirin on Naruto in their first post-time skip confrontation, and that his recklessness nearly gave Orochimaru control of his body (and that would have succeeded if Itachi hadn't secretly been good all along), Sasuke in the final arc actively plans to go on a rampage and destroy the entire Hidden Leaf village, even though no one living there had any idea about the truth of what happened to the Uchiha. That's thousands of completely innocent people. He targets and attempts to kill B, someone who had committed no crime whatsoever, on the orders of a maniac in pursuit of this objective, and as a result helps start a world war.
He abandons some of his companions during the five kage summit, and while his stabbing through Karin could be seen as ruthless but not evil, I can't see him accepting Tobi's order to kill her as she lay defenceless as anything other than murder (this is something that he suffers absolutely no consequences for by the way, even from Karin). Sasuke doesn't succeed in killing these innocent people that I mention. But that's not for lack of trying!
Even at the end, after seeing everything he's seen, Sasuke is still too damn stubborn to accept the world (even after the stress of the war has basically united everyone left alive) and Naruto has to beat some sense into him one last time to finally get him to accept all of this.
Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 12th 2018 at 1:28:20 PM
Goku was asked to go get senzu beans, forgot about it and spent a while stuffing his faceuntil Karin reminded him.
Or the wonderful moment when he threw Gohan to Cell, gave Cell a senzu bean and was giggling like an idiot while Cell was crushing Gohan's back while his son screamed in horrible agony.And he fell asleep at Gohan's big movie premiere.
I have seen defense of the whole "make Gohan fight Cell' because of Gohan's hidden potential and so forth and Goku not realizing Gohan isn't as gung ho on fighting. Giving Cell a senzu is inexcusable.
This parenting talk is amusing, but beside the point. People can stand Vegeta because he went through a character arc from villain to anti-hero to pretty much hero by the end of the original manga. To do this, everything from his pride to his reasons for fighting had to be tested or abandoned for something greater than himself. No one's saying he's totally redeemed from his past, as Piccolo readily points out to him when he dies fighting Fat Buu, but its because he accepts that and fights anyway that he's more palatable.
Not everyone cares about anime only events.
First thing I have to say is that I actually enjoy this thread now way more than when it was super active, some actually pretty good back and forth get going instead the cesspool of hate that was this thread during the last stretch of the War Arc and long after.
Secondly, to me, while I understand actual damage done counts, it's always been strange when I see people go "X killed more people than X and yet" both intent and action matter, and if the malicious intent failing doesn't matter much to me, morally speaking.
Also, a lot of people were going on about Sasuke losing his family and Clan, but I don't remember people hating him for being upset about that. I remember issues with him going "destroy the village!" right after he found at that everything Itachi did was for the village, his clan was at fault, and most people in the village weren't actually involved though.
And as for the father debate... Sasuke is a shitty dad. Goku is also a shitty dad, though I think he's actually much less shitty than people tend to make him out to be. Vegeta is also a shitty dad, and I think he actually qualifies as much worse than either Goku or Sasuke in certain ways.
Edited by LSBK on Sep 12th 2018 at 7:11:13 AM
I mean, the village was at fault for discriminating against Uchiha in the first place, and taking advantage of a mentally disturbed child to do their dirty deeds for them. It's true tho that Sasuke went a little overboard with his revenge, which really should've ended with Danzo.
The village did not discriminate until a Uchiha clearly brought on the attack on the village. Tobirama makes it clear he didn't trust anyone, and he made them police since he thought they were best at it. Even then only the top were the ones discriminating and Hiruzen may not have been the most competent, but he was willing to talk things out unlike the Elders.
They even point out Madara had sympathizers even when he left the village and was, y'know, trying to kill everyone who lived there Uchiha included.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 12th 2018 at 6:00:55 AM
At worst the village was victim of an Uchiha specifically going out of his way to frame the other Uchiha in terms of discrimination; but it's not like any of them had been killed, and the Uchiha response was to try and outright overthrow the village leadership.
It should be noted that what Danzo does that makes the coup inevitable is kill Shisui and steal one of his eyes, preventing Shisui... from brainwashing the Uchiha. That was the plan of the *good guy* in that situation.
Sasuke wants to destroy the entire Hidden Leaf village, even though of everyone living there only Danzo knows about the Uchiha massacre; (Sasuke wanting to kill Danzo is understandable). The other people who knew are dead; heck, Sasuke is working with "Madara" who helped Itachi kill them all.
I think the thing that's most irritating is that Sasuke actually makes a pretty important "sparing Naruto" moment in the final scene of the first part at the Valley of the End - he chooses not to kill Naruto even though Itachi told him it would activate the Mangekyo Sharingan - so Sasuke will betray his village for power but he doesn't have it in him to betray Naruto for power. (It's actually some pretty good writing).
However, then, in what I think is probably the worst choice in writing Sasuke in Shippuden, he nearly kills Naruto in the second arc with Kirin but has to be stopped (by Orochimaru!), and even dismisses his own previous mercy as a whim. Had he considered it, but faltered, and when Orochimaru asked him to kill Naruto fobbed him off with the excuse about the Akatsuki rather than the other way around, I think Naruto's obsession with bringing him back wouldn't have been half so annoying. If Sasuke's descent into asshole had happened a lot more gradually over Shippuden instead of being immediately after the timeskip I feel like people would have actually been on board with a morally grey secondary protagonist fighting people who are pretty consistently worse than him.
Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 13th 2018 at 12:53:44 PM
Honestly, I feel that the last few chapters put Sasuke's previous actions in a less...horrible light. That he considered Naruto a friend, and was lying to himself about it. ("I only spared you because of a whim!") and his actions were trying to crush what he thought was a weakness.
Kishimoto...did not always do this effectively, to say the least.
And that is why people are critical of Sasuke as a character, because he can feel inconsistent and can change based on the whim of the writer.
I honestly feel like he was fine until right about when he abandoned Snake/Hawk, when in his last major battle he had unlocked powers in his eye strictly to save them. The transition there was very abrupt.
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