Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings: In-universe WMG]]
- Depending how similar each iteration is he may be a prior Iteration of Melkor that was never corrupted or has been reformed. It would explain how he can resist the influence of the Ring. The Valar may not have been able to resist the Ring but Melkor is much more powerful than the rest of the Valar and he is a master of ring craft and so may have extra resistance against the influence of it. Matti 23
- Moria is about to be invaded by Nameless Things
- It was actually stated that in the 4th age the dwarves dug ever deeper and were never heard from again. Probably dug deep enough to hit the Nameless Things
- It was stated that Sauron was hoarding Mithril. Other than Frodo's Mithril shirt we didn't have any mention of Orcs or others in Sauron's service using Mithril. This might be what he was doing with it. It was also mentioned that he was using it for war. Building such a device might count as building a superweapon. The ring required a huge amount of energy because it needed to dominate the others. Such a device wouldn't need to be as strong, it just needs enough to count as a part of him and allow him to wield Arda. Getting his ring back would certainly help though as it could be a very costly task.
- Gandalf probably just forgot. He is really, really old. As in, ancient. Old people forget things all the time, and it's not unreasonable to think that he simply had a senile moment, especially with all the crazy shit going down. But when Frodo and Sam were about to die on Mt. Doom, something triggered his memory and he remembered he had an eagle whistle.
- Mordor may maintain a fleet of flying creatures to secure their airspace. These may either be present in great numbers or very powerful allowing them to destroy or repel any push into their territory towards Mount Doom (Sauron knows its the only way to destroy the ring and air travel by eagle is a pretty fast way to get there). Eagles are large and may find it hard to avoid the detection and interception capabilities of Mordor or knowing that this would be an efficient way to destroy the ring, specialized defences may be in place against the most viable methods in by air. Flyers definitely exist in the Mordor forces as we see the dragon-like creatures being deployed against Mordor's enemies. They may not show up in greater numbers because they are busy protecting their airspace. It would look pretty stupid for Mordor to flood Minas Tirith with flyers only for Frodo to push into Mordor with a large force of eagles, overwhelm what defences are left at Mount Doom and then drop the ring in.
- Mordor may also maintain ground based weapons capable of shooting down flyers. This could take the form of either a very long ranged magic attack (either from a creature, sorcerer or building) or mechanical weapons. The Eye of Sauron might help in targeting when it is available.
- As for why they could use Eagles to get back — well, by that point, Sauron's power was broken, so the Eagles no longer had to worry about Mordor's defenses.
- Gandalf may have been afraid that the One Ring would corrupt the King of Eagles.
- Alternately, there's this theory that Gandalf's original plan was to use Eagles, but he had to keep the plan secret — even from the other members of the Fellowship, as, if captured, they could be tortured into giving away the plan. He chose his path in a way that would allow him to meet the Eagles in a hidden area but designed it to avoid rousing Sauron and Saruman's suspicions. However, when forced to go through Moria, he ended up having to fight the Balrog, and never got a chance to tell the plan to the others.
- The reasons not to use eagles (besides the ones already cited) was because the lava pit where the ring could be destroyed was inside the mountain. Just because Mt. Doom was a volcano, doesn't mean that it was a perfect cone with direct by air access to the magma chamber. The door to the magma chamber was left unguarded, but only because Sauron didn't expect anyone to come that way. Had he seen Eagles (with riders) heading towards the mountain, Sauron could have sent his army to shore up the mountain's defenses, closing off access to the chamber. The whole point behind Gandalf's plan was subtlety. Misdirecting Sauron so that the hobbits could gain access to the magma chamber. Huge flocks of giant eagles would have been counterproductive to that plan.
- Destroying the One Ring effectively marked the end of an Age for Middle Earth, a diminishing of magic's influence there, and the passing-over of the continent to the future custody of humans. An Age such as that wouldn't have a place in it for giant talking Eagles, only normal-sized birds of prey. So possibly the Eagles, while they didn't want Sauron to reclaim the One Ring and dominate the world, also didn't feel they should be helping to bring about its destruction, and their own eventual displacement or extinction, either. Once the deed was done, they could act to save the hobbits as a courtesy to Gandalf, but they wouldn't fly them there.
- Maybe Gandalf did not use the eagles, because eagles could not fly that far carrying passengers. Note that whenever Gandalf uses eagles for transportation (once to escape Isengard, once to save Frodo and Sam from Mount Doom and once in Hobbit to escape orcs), the flights are always rather short. Maybe the eagles are too small to carry such heavy loads for far. Also note that the lizards ringwraiths use as flying mounts are much bigger than eagles and thus the weight of the passenger is not as great a strain in overland travel.
- Eagles are visible and the mission was relying on stealth.
- In The Hobbit, Eagles talk about being shot down by farmers and shepherds for stealing sheep. They wouldnt't have gotten very far in Mordor - the only reason why they did so much in Return of the King was because they had Gondor's army on the ground, and the ring had just been destroyed as well.
My proof of this theory is that while it's stressed that Elves have a pretty solid resistance to evil, it was shown in the Silmarillion and implied in Lord of The Rings that they are not above it. Besides how would elves that outright denied paradise have any idea of what exactly evil is? It would not have been difficult for Sauron to turn them to his side with some half truths.
- We know that no elves are known to have fought on Sauron's side in the War of the Last Alliance (as there are sources saying they were the only race to only fight on only one side. That this seems to indicate that there were orchs on the side of the Last Alliance is, of course, a matter of interest in itself...). Of course, all that means is that no elves were known to have fought on Sauron's side. If the Sauron-Avari stayed in the far south/east and did support work, the Last Alliance would remain unknowing.
- I don't know, bringing back your omnicidal boss isn't a good way to bring about global order.
- Mordor isn't on the East side of the world, nor does it have a coastline. There is land past Mordor and below Mordor.
- Re: Barren Mordor: the whole south of Mordor is fertile farmland; only the northeastern bit is a wasteland.
- And note Orcs can apparently reproduce, and apparently multiply quite quickly.
- Direct elvish ancestry isn't even necessary, just some descent at some point from a member of the Royal bloodline of Númenor. The early Shire-dwelling hobbits are known to have had contact with the dúnedain kings, after all, if there was a hobbit/human marriage the elven ancestry would have passed into the Took bloodline.
- By Elendil's time everyone in Númenor would be descended from Elros (in roughly the same proportion), and by Bilbo's time all the Dúnedain – perhaps all the Men of Middle-Earth – would be descended from Elendil, because of pedigree collapse. (And from the Witch-King (see below) unless his descendants, if any, died out within a few generations.)
- Fairy could also describe someone like Goldberry (whatever she is - possibly some sort of nature personification) or a minor maia (if she isn't one).
- In the earliest writings, Fairies and Gnomes are branches of the Elves; Gnomes became Noldor, and Fairies became Teleri.
Think about it. The glow is not there to tell Orc enemies that the Orcs are there, but to help the Orcs find them wherever they're hiding. The glow helps them out, just like a lighthouse guides a ship.
- Maybe orcs can't see the color blue?
- Even if they can't see blue, they can see light. And there don't seem to be any other sorts of glowing swords.
- Except the Elvish swords like that were made in Gondolin during the First Age.
- It's actually that the makers weren't planning on stealth. The sword shines with a blessed light that hurts orc eyes: facing an eleven host with such weapons would be like trying to fight with blazing spotlights pointed at your face.
(Based on an ''SFX'' column by David Langford.)
- This theory actually goes way back (at least by the Internet's standards), and it might even be true. Mithril sounds very similar to titanium; in the original Siege of Gondolin, the Balrogs attacked riding mechanical dragons with "fires in their bellies"; various texts mention the Númenóreans having ships that could sail into the wind and arrows that could fly over the horizon. Moreover, a technologically advanced First Age would fit with the theme of steady decline characteristic of the setting: the end of the Third Age really was an unsophisticated place, but their ancestors were far more advanced and more knowledgeable, as well as taller, stronger, longer-lived... Tolkien had zero fondness for technology as it existed in his day — his views on early-20thC industry can be deduced from The Scouring of the Shire — and his professional career was focused on the Voelkerwanderung of the Dark Ages; but Lewis had a penchant for science-fiction which quite possibly rubbed off on him.
- Langford's theories do not stand up: the main isotopes of uranium have such massively long half-lives that you have to go back billions of years to find a time when there was significantly more of it; Dwarves seem to have had mine ventilation (and drainage) all worked out; if Orcs were radioactive enough to induce fluorescence at any significant distance they would simply not be able to survive; the demolition charge they used on the Deeping Wall - like the ones they used on the Rammas Echor - definitely has the characteristics of a gunpowder explosion; the Great Signal resembles a volcanic eruption much more than it does a nuclear mushroom cloud; a swimming pool reactor has a negative thermal coefficient of reactivity and would not go bang with the addition of a little more uranium; and even if the Ring was made of pure 235U it would still be only weakly radioactive - alphas, too - and safe to handle... what would be dangerous would be Gandalf throwing it in the fire, since uranium is rather combustible and would produce a big cloud of toxic smoke. The only real possibility for uranium being involved is as an explanation for the difficulty of melting the Ring, as uranium-gold alloys in the correct proportions can have a melting point much higher than that of pure gold (and since uranium and gold are almost exactly the same density, nobody would notice from the weight). But it doesn't really act like that, it acts more as if it is the three-dimensional projection of something which has a large thermal mass in higher dimensions. Sorry.
- However, this is not to say that Arda was entirely devoid of nuclear technology, the most obvious example being the Feanorian lanterns, which glow continuously without need for refuelling and are shaded rather than extinguished when not required. These are surely made by mixing radium (or maybe even just high-grade uranium ore) with zinc sulphide or some other luminescent mineral. More tentatively, the Silmarils could consist of concentric shells of alternately negative and positive condensed matter, by the geometry stabilising itself and cancelling the overall total mass nearly exactly, and creating in the centre a sufficient pressure to allow fusion reactions to take place in a self-regulating manner. Effectively, they are miniature stars in a bottle, which could be why Varda got into them so much, stars being her thing. Of course, creating negative matter and condensed matter is not a trivial task. It took Feanor a very long time and a lot of effort to work out a way of doing it, and the result was distinctly imperfect, having the unpleasant side effect of inducing severe psychosis. However, it's evidently not the only way of doing it. There is at least one other method of producing similar devices which does not require extensive smithying facilities (being practical in an entirely sylvan setting) and moreover gives a superior result, lacking the psychosis-inducing side effect and with a sufficiently delicate equilibrium that it can be switched between inactive and active by the heat of someone's hand. Naturally, it took someone with a lot more gumption than Feanor to figure this method out.
- This logically explains Melkor-Morgoth's We Have Reserves military policy. He was conserving resources. The more orcs died on the battlefield, the smoother his recycling capability — allowing him to whip up the next batch.
- He's implied to be a Huorn: they're stated to be wilder and more dangerous and much more prone to taking vengeance on other races. It's easy to see a huorn without the moderating influence of an active Ent in the vicinity becoming like Old Man Willow.
- Not all plants are hermaphroditic, though your idea does have disturbing and funny implications.
- And somebody, or something, besides Bombadil is influencing the trees of the Old Forest to leave the Shire and its inhabitants alone as long as the hobbits leave them alone. There's a lot of Huornishness, and even Entishness, to the Old Forest. Bombadil probably knows the score, but he won't tell on them.
- So that's what the Númenórean "iron bows" were.
- Or, more simply, Sauron had a lot more of those flying critters than the ones the Ringwraiths rode on, and they made Mordor's airspace unattackable until Sauron's fall. That's why Gandalf could ride one to save Frodo and Sam afterwards — the creatures had fled in fear after Sauron fell.
- Here's a simpler explanation: it wouldn't have worked because Sauron could control the air itself. See the Caradhras chapter.
- It's implied that Caradhras itself is attacking the Fellowship, not Sauron, although nothing's definitely stated...
- Boromir's theory that Sauron was responsible for the weather in the Caradhras chapter came from the fact that Sauron could control weather closer to home.
- I thought the same thing as the above troper, the fell beasts would probably have eaten them or caught them and done something much, much worse.
- Someone actually sent a letter to Tolkien asking why the Fellowship haven't flown to Mordor. He got so angry he draw the logo of the Mordor Air Defense and sent it in the reply. True story.
- Alternately, they might have refused because they'd heard a prophecy that Eagles of the next Age would be reduced to non-sentient birds no bigger than a goose, and wanted to postpone the diminishment of their kind as long as possible. The Wargs could've heard a similar prophecy about wolf-kind's future, and sided with the bad guys in self-defense, to try to ensure that the Ring would never be destroyed and the Third Age continue forever.
- Or they feared the corrupting influence of the ring could tempt an Eagle to fall from grace; The Hobbit explicitly states eagles are not predisposed to be kindly, and some are outright jerks.
- Not vertically. Aragorn descends through the Northern Dúnedain from the Númenórean Elendili; his paternal line (once broken by Silmariën) goes to the line of Kings up to Elros Tar-Minyatur. The Witch-King was not an insular Númenórean, but a Second-Age continental human, probably of colonial Númenórean descent. As such, he can't be Aragorn's ancestor. Unless you want to propose that some southern Black Númenórean Witch-King descendant sneaked north and married into the Northern kingdom, and she or one of her descendants married one of the Kings of Arnor/Arthedain/Chieftains.
- Sure, why not?
- Maybe the Witch-King isn't his direct ancestor. They may still have some relations.
- Considering how little we know of the Witch-King's identity, there's all kinds of things that could make it possible. Who says Sauron didn't offer a Ring to one of the indirect or even direct lines of the Royal Family? Elendil himself wasn't actually first choice of the Númenórean Kingship actually. There's even coincidentally a rather malicious king that died mysteriously before the Nazgûl first appeared, though again, there's not much concrete information either way.
- There's a theory floating around that the Witch-King is the Numenorean Isilmo. Isilmo was the son, brother and father of rulers of Numenor (his father was Tar-Surion, his sister was Tar-Telperien, and his son was Tar-Minastir), but never got on the throne himself. If Sauron showed up and offered him a kingdom of his own, the temptation would have been hard to resist.
- Civil War
- Invasion by men out of the East
- Given that Europe's current population, save the Basque people of northern Spain and southern France, are descended from invaders from the East (the Proto-Indo-Europeans), this idea has a ring of truth to it.
- I partially support this. I would say that the Easterlings did invade, but only subjugated the Men of the West and forced them to speak our language. Especially in Western Gondor and west of the Misty Mountains. The reason I think this is the DNA evidence in the region. In Western Europe today, the vast majority of men still carry what in the LOT Rverse would be the Númenórean (Celtiberian) marker (R1b), as opposed to the Easterling (Indo-European) marker (R1a). If you want to find a majority R1a population, look in the Balkans/Black Sea region.
- Appendixes state that Aragorn conquered the Easterlings and basically annihilated their culture (it was based on worshiping Sauron and Melkor, and both are "dead") and helped them revive an older one their evil overlords had suppressed. They wouldn't have been able to invade unless the empire had already crumbled, but a rebellion is possible.
- Given that Europe's current population, save the Basque people of northern Spain and southern France, are descended from invaders from the East (the Proto-Indo-Europeans), this idea has a ring of truth to it.
- Rebellion
- History repeating itself, with Gondor going the way of Númenor - in all respects.
- This is what did happen. They fell to evil worship cults and basically screwed up completely. Tolkien began to write the tale of it but it was so depressing he packed it in after 13 pages.
- Construction of technology beyond their means, which destroyed them
- The escape of Melkor-Morgoth/Shai'tan
- Whatever unexplained catastrophe rearranged the continent's geography
- Stuff with things.
- The elaboration below about an earlier interglacial. This doesn't explain why nothing shows up in the archaeological/paleontological record, though.
- Pippin and Merry complain about hobbits being overlooked in "the old stories", and several races don't seem to recognize hobbits. However, they also joke that an elf is silly for not being able to tell the difference between a hobbit and a man, who claims "sheep may look different to other sheep". This suggests many races who didn't know about hobbits may simply have assumed they were a type of Men or even human children (which even hobbits grudgingly admit), in a similar way that Gandalf has been confused for an elf. Thus there might have been many adventurous "men" or young children who were actually hobbits, who never clarified the matter or were enlarged for the sake of a good story.
- Alternatively, Gollum wasn't really thinking anything other than the Ring and wanted to commit a "double" suicide. The power of the Ring had so utterly broken him that he was mentally prepared to die but his addiction to the Ring displaced the thoughts of suicide in his mind. His obsession kept him alive against his will, forcing him to feed and protect himself, thus extending his suffering. Once he got his hand on the Ring, his quest was over and he felt a fullfiment of sorts that gave him a moment of clarity. He realised that the Ring would never again give him such a satisfaction and that he still could never let go of the Ring. Thus he did the only thing that seemed to make sense to him — jump into the fire and be incinerated along with the Ring. In his mind he wouldn't be doing harm to the Ring since the Ring would want to be with him to the end and thus "Sméagol wasn't doing anything wrong, was he Precious?"
- As another alternative, Gollum's death was a suicide committed in obedience to an earlier command by Frodo:At the last need Smeagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command.
- Later, when Gollum tries to take the Ring from Frodo, Frodo warns him
If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.
- And that's what happened - It was the last need, Frodo had put on the Ring and was wearing it (it was on his finger...) and Gollum obeyed, leaping from a precipice and casting himself into the fire.
- ^ This. Frodo cursed him under the Ring's influence, and the curse followed through.
- A Nameless thing in human form
- The One, aka Eru aka Ilúvatar. The Ring has no affect on him whatsoever, and in fact, he makes the Ring disappear briefly! When Frodo puts on the Ring, it is said he is putting one foot in the Wraith world and if he wears it too long, risks becoming a wraith. But the "wraith world" is not necessarily an evil place, for, because of the Ring, Frodo is able to see Glorfindel's "other side" the side that exists in the "wraith" or "spirit" world when Glorfindel goes all badass at the Ford of Bruinen. Tom does not disappear when he puts on the Ring, because the Ring has nowhere to pull him to, he already exists totally on "the other side" as the One. In a way, by making the Ring disappear, Tom is pulling the Ring all the way over to "the other side" with himself. Gandalf remarks at the Council of Elrond to the affect that it is notsomuch that Tom has power over the Ring as that the Ring has no power over him, which fits in with Tom as the One, since a creation cannot be higher than the Creator, but the One being a Creator that doesn't muck around with the free will of his creations (but doesn't mind extending a helping hand every now and again). Even Tom's habit of incessant singing fits this theory.
- The whole idea was Jossed by Tolkien in 1954, as he has stated in his letters that The One has no incarnation in Middle-earth. This naturally depends on how heavily you accept the Word of God.
- Tom making the Ring disappear was described in a manner that makes it pretty clear he pulled a simple coin trick on the hobbits to mess with them.
- Aulë the Smith. Aulë is unique among the Valar in being fonder of life in Middle-earth than in Heaven, as the god of created objects he would naturally have power over the Ring, and he is romantically involved with an earth-mother goddess who is described in similar terms to Goldberry. Only he has the means, motive and opportunity.
- A longish essay (on painful background, unfortunately, until you click for plain white) on this premise is here.
- Oromë was like that too, and I could more easily imagine him as Bombadil than Aulë, whose fascination with created and non-living things just doesn't fit with Tom's close-to-nature lifestyle. Also, his nature as the "Eldest" being on Middle-Earth would support this, as, if this troper remembers correctly, Oromë was the first of the Valar to set foot on Middle-earth and certainly the only one to remain there for any length of time.
- Or he's one of the Maiar, since Gandalf seems to view him on equal terms, not as a servant would his master.
- Aulë wasn't Olorin's master, Nienna was. It's still a good point though, especially since Aulë was Saruman's master, and it seems doubtful that Saruman would have dared set up shop that close to his former master after betraying the White Council.
- If he was a Maia, wouldn't he be seduced by the ring like his fellow Maiar? Gandalf refuses to even touch the ring because of the danger is poses to him, and Saruman eventually falls to that temptation. A Vala, on the other hand, would be above such petty bits of jewelry.
- Not really. The Maiar would act in different ways. Maybe Tom has no reason to want to take the ring at all or maybe he might not have a sense of evil because in the book he is comical and does most of his mischief in a off-hand way. But all the others in the series show hints of evil in them (Except of course the Vala and Eru).
- Tom could be a wholly different Ainur who slipped into Arda without the other Valar knowing, or even knowing but not caring, and thus him not being in any myths.
- The Witch-king of Angmar. Explained here.
- As strange as that theory is, it does look like it has textual backup.
- But why didn't he just keep the ring after he made it disappear? Or when he almost didn't give it back?
- The article brings up the quote, "They were... in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring." Nazgûl are some of the only creatures who know instinctively that they can't take the Ring's power for themselves. Thus they're the only ones Sauron trusts to bring the Ring back to him. Sauron perhaps didn't count on the fact that the Witch-King could disobey him and live a double life as Tom Bombadil, but the Witch-King is not under Sauron's direct control when Sauron doesn't have the Ring in his possession.
- No. Doesn't work. It doesn't fit at all with the idea that Tom is "oldest and fatherless" nor would the Witch-King (a Númenórean) possibly be as old as Elrond (hardly the oldest of the Elves in any case, despite what the article says), and certainly not the likes of Círdan or Treebeard. Remember how he was around before the Elves. This doesn't explain anything about Goldberry either. As for the Barrow-wights... well, yes, maybe the Witch-King could have controlled them, but there are certainly other named (and unnamed) beings stronger than the Witch-King; there's no reason why this would logically point to him. It's also doubtful that Sauron would not know about such a dual identity considering the Witch-king is his closest lieutenant. No, while Tom was certainly... something... maybe, as has been put forth by some before, even something malevolent, but not the Witch-King.
- Tom lied. He isn't older than the Ents, Elves or Elrond. That's just part of his assumed identity.
- A construct, possibly created by Ilúvatar and/or the Valar as a sort of corporeal gaming-avatar through which to vicariously observe and savor His creation as its natives do. The One Ring couldn't affect Tom, for the same reason it never turned the chain it was strung on invisible: it doesn't work on objects, only living creatures. This resolves the contradiction in which Treebeard is described as the oldest living thing to walk Middle-Earth, yet Tom has been around since the very beginning: Tom isn't a living thing.
- The best most comprehensive theory that also helpfully deconstruct others. Seriously, it's that good. He's the spirit of the Music of Creation. This would explain
- His powers: He's the spirit of the song of creation, his song is powerful.
- His unique weakness: He's weak in the East where the Discord of Melkor reigned strong because the two musics is utterly incompatible.
- His immunity to the ring: The ring is concentrated essence of Melkor's discord, the Music and Discord was described as incompatible but cannot cancel each other out.
- His indifference to the ring(ie: he has no desire to keep the ring safe): in the beginning, the Music of Ainur was sung, then the Discord of Melkor was added and finally Eru added his own note that destroyed the discord completely. Eru's note created the races of Middle Earth, which is the only thing that can destroy Melkor completely. As the Spirit of the Music, Tom knew this and act accordingly.
- "The First, the Fatherless, and the last to fall": this is where the Music and the Fire meet: both the Music and the Fire are Eru tools of creations, both can claim the title of "Eldest". Should Sauron win, the Discord win and the Music would be destroyed forever.
- He is uttered obsessed with his wife, who is a river spirit and of the element that retain the most of the song.
- Best theory this troper's seen yet: He is the Secret Fire incarnate. His having power over the Ring rules him out of being anything less than a Vala (Gandalf, elves and plenty of Men and dwarves are tempted by it, so he can't be any of those). He is "the Master of wood, water and hill" - which is three Valar's domains (Oromë, Ulmo and Yavanna) - he beats them all. He is the "Eldest" who was in Middle-Earth even "before the Dark Lord came from Outside" (Melkor was the first being to come to Eä after its creation, even before the Valar), and "if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First" - conquer Middle-Earth and you destroy the Fire keeping it alive. It makes sense of Goldberry saying "He is" in reply to "Who is he?" (which prompted a letter to Tolkien saying that sounded too much like "I am who I am", which in turn prompted the above 1954 letter denying that) - he isn't Eru per se, but the Fire "is with Ilúvatar" - and apparently the Secret Fire is the Holy Spirit, so he kind of both is and isn't Eru (per Tolkien's Catholic worldview). It's all there in the link.
- Or he could be one of the spirits not created by Ilúvatar who were drawn to Arda, like Ungoliant except benign.
- Both ideas have a lot of merit, especially when considering Tolkien's Catholicism. This is the one I'll go with until a better one comes along.
- Gandalf called himself the servant of the Flame, yet his attitude toward him is annoyed and dismissive. Also it's called the Flame Imperishable, it can give life to creation, not vice versa. And Sauron wanted to rule the world, not destroy it. All in all, the Music Theory was much better. The Music theory was also the basis for the Fire anyway.
- Or he could be one of the spirits not created by Ilúvatar who were drawn to Arda, like Ungoliant except benign.
- The text is very clear. Both Bombadil and Goldberry explicitly say, "Tom is the Master"
- Tom Bombadil was originally a Dutch doll owned by one of Tolkien's sons (Michael?). One of his other sons (John?) flushed him down the toilet. He was rescued and revived, but it was a close thing, and the near-death experience resulted in his mind projecting itself as a pan-temporal entity in Middle-earth. All the thousands of years of Bombadil's existence in the books result from his mind freeing itself from time for those few seconds of him drowning in Tolkien's toilet.
- A fallen star from "The Chronicles of Narnia".
- A Maia who was exiled for being too annoying.
- Something from the Land of Fiction.
- A Time Lord.
- A Time Lord who ended up in the Land of Fiction.
- The Doctor.
- Alternatively, Goldberry is a Time Lord. While Tom Bombadil is her TARDIS. That's how he's so strange, can teleport and has weird powers.
- One of the evil Ainur, who repented and has to redeem themselves by keeping this dangerous area in check. As he was in Arda before Morgoth perhaps he joined Melkor at the beginning but as Arda was formed realised his mistake and repented.
- A Maia who was sent like the Wizards but more secretly.
- Lord Voldemort. This would suggest that Middle-Earth is, in fact, the limbo where Voldemort was sent after his defeat, and the fetus-like form his fragmented soul took eventually evolved into a small man once Voldemort started repenting his crimes.
- Ungoliant's counterpart. Ungoliant is a spirit of an unknown kind, outside the order of the Ainur, implied to have originated with Creation as a living embodiment of Darkness. Her spawn, Shelob, is described as having no use for the Ring, because her only interest is Hunger. Bombadil is equal and opposite, the personification of Light: good because that's his nature, completely content with what he has (ie, the exact opposite of Hunger), but also with a might incredible enough to resist Sauron yet put him in a position where he would fall if all else fell, just as Ungoliant could bring fear to Melkor yet still be driven back by his Balrogs. Like Ungoliant, he is oldest and fatherless because he emerged with creation itself, perhaps as a note of the Music. He has no interest in the Ring because, like Ungoliant, he is blinkered by his nature as Light incarnate.
- Lindo. He's the first and the eldest. And he tells stories that go back to the beginning of creation. And Vairë is Goldberry.
- Interesting theory, but it seemed to this Troper that when Melkor was making the dragons, he went through a series of prototypes, starting with a regular serpent, then evolving them to have fire and later wings, then causing evil spirits to possess them, until he had the finished product.
- The first dragons were flightless, wingless reptiles possessed by evil spirits (fallen Maiar) so their bodies must have been bred from reptiles, possibly by making fallen Maiar take physical form to mate with them.
- Dinosaurs.
- The ringwraiths might've been taught by elves, as Aragorn was.
- The Ringwraiths would not have been elf-friends; Sauron wouldn't have entrusted the Nine Rings to them if they were, and four of them were from the Easter lands where people traditionally didn't get along with elves. Also, the gesture described above is just the ordinary swordsman's salute which 'officially' opens the battle; just about everyone trained in swordsmanship with Western blades does it.
- Before the Downfall, the Númenóreans had developed astonishing arts and technologies that were mostly or wholly lost after its sinking.
- In The Lost Road, Tolkien makes a few scattered notes alluding to zeppelin-like airships in Ar-Pharazôn's arsenal—this never made it to canon, but may provide a clue to T.'s conception of that civilization's attributes.
- As with Sauron's Third Age empire, similarities to 20th-century fascism are thick on the ground. Tolkien hated anyone's treating his universe as allegorical, but it's not allegorizing to note certain parallels between Tolkien's mental image of late Númenor and the European Brownshirts/Blackshirts.
- Consider the aesthetic effect. The late Númenórean rulers fall into focus the second one stops picturing them as mediaeval storybook kings, and starts imagining them in a twisted Art Deco vista, with quasi-military tunics, surrounded by mechanistic wonders of steam, steel, and clockwork. To gauge the effect of Ar-Pharazôn's Temple of Melkor on the capital's hallowed ground, imagine it looking like something out of Brazil.
- I'm generally quite skeptical about WMG, but this one is eerily plausible. Let's turn to the description of Frodo's deciding at the Council of Elrond:
An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.'I will take the Ring,' he said, 'though I do not know the way.'
Double points once we realize that this part of the narratve was most likely compiled from the notes of Frodo himself. At the very least this theory might explain why the Ring didn't make a trick like one it did woth Isildur and Gollum - that is, slip and hide.
- I think it's practically canon that the ring's will was a major factor.
- Wormtongue actually isn't his given name. It's a nickname given to him by the people in Rohan who can see through his act. But him not fitting in with Rohirric culture is quite plausible.
- Isn't this canon?
- The text is rather explicite that they're shock and awe weapons. They glow blue/silver with a light like to Telperion's to burn the eyes and skin of orcs, goblins, trolls, and other servents of Morgtoh and Sauron. They also alert their users to the presence of their enemies and light the battlefield so their wielders can see even if Morgoth or Sauron has darkned the sky itself. Elvish swords are only ever about killing good.
- Tom Bombadil basically has everything he wants. The Ring had nothing to offer him so couldn't tempt him and therefore had no power over him.
- Hobbits are a pretty happy lot overall. Given enough food, some mild recreational substances, their friends, and the occasional illicit adventure they're pleased with life. It's hard for the Ring to find much to work with there in terms of turning them into evil overlords. Sam explicitly laughs at the Ring when it tries.
- In contrast, Boromir is a mass of unfulfilled ambition and the Ring gets to him without him ever owning it or even handling it.
- Elves and Maiar are slightly more resilient than humans but would fall that much harder if given the temptation of the Ring. For example, Boromir wanted to use it as a weapon to protect Gondor, whereas Galadriel immediately professed her desire to become Queen of the world if Frodo would give it to her.
- It was also a Maia and hoped to become the new Evil Overlord with the ring.
- Actually, the one in Moria does have skeletal bat wings, but no solid material between the bones to give it lift. There was only smoke, thus it was flightless.
On the other hand, Saruman did have some partial success, producing both the Uruk-hai and those goblins who had less visible corruption, could pass as men, and were mistaken for being "half orcs."
- There's nothing in the book that says he didn't. He may have been a real creep before, but I'm willing to accept that he wasn't evil and that he genuinely loved her before Saruman bought him. I think this is practically canon.
Now think: Galadriel can read Frodo's mind quite easily, even while he bears the Ring. It's implied that it's because she wears one of the Elvish rings of power. However, it's also said elsewhere that the Elvish rings only amplify the wearer's native powers, which would mean that she would have had to have been mildly telepathic before gaining the ring. The men of Numenor have a lot of abilities more commonly associated with the Elves, such as long life and the ability to prophecy, so perhaps this weak telepathy is common to the Elves and the Dunedain. As to why Boromir and Denethor never show this ability? One of the first things we learn about Faramir is that he's much, much wiser and more patient than Boromir. Perhaps this wisdom and patience allowed him to unlock a long hidden racial talent?
Admittedly I'm reaching, but is it really that crazy?
- Finrod Felagund was also a telepath : when he met Men for the first time, they did not speak the same language but he could understand whatever it was they were saying at the time by reaching to their mind. Legolas also claims to hear the stones' thoughts while in Eregion, so telepathy is clearly an Elvish power that could have been passed to the Dùnedain, albeit diminished.
- There's a passage early in the The Return of the King that could support this theory for both Faramir and Denethor. After Denethor finishes questioning Pippin, Gandalf tells Pippin that Denethor was able to read a lot between his words because "by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir," and that "[h]e can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off." Granted, the latter part may be due to his use of the palantir, but he wasn't doing that while talking to Pippin in person.
Given his prior track record, I'm going to guess that that was partially Aule's fault. Perhaps only to a small degree, but he certainly seems like the most ignorant and morally dubious of the Valar.
In fact, in Book 2, when Aragorn talks about Gandalf being their last hope, the great, heroic "White Rider" against the black riders of Mordor, I think the reader (who's been following Gandalf much more closely than Aragorn has) is supposed to realize how desperate the situation is. Gandalf is a wonderful ally to have, but if he's your last hope, you might be screwed.
- The whole area was deserted after the fall of Cardolan, so they wouldn't have found a harbor to ship from. Besides, the shores of Gondor were probably already under threat from the Corsairs of Umbar.
- To say nothing of the possibility of horrible sea monsters being drawn to the Ring and attacking their boat. Remember, they encountered the Watcher in the Water in a freaking Moutain Lake. Imagine for a second what's in the open ocean.
Gandalf could have just run with the rest of the Fellowship when the Balrog ambushed them, but instead he stopped to challenge it on his own, leading to his death. Why would he do such a thing?
The Valar know that these terrible creatures still exist, and that if they allied with Sauron the situation in Middle-Earth would become so desperate that they would be forced to intervene, leading to another War of Wrath (which the Valar wanted to avoid at all costs.)
To deal with these threats and others, the Valar send the Istari to travel Middle-Earth influencing events. But Gandalf wasn't aware that he himself was being influenced, and thanks to fate he ends up as the only being standing between the Balrog and the outside world.
In the book he says "A Balrog... now I understand," and in the films he has a pained expression on his face, but they both mean the same thing: After centuries of wandering his purpose is finally revealed, too late for him to avoid it. Gandalf knows that destroying the Balrog will destroy him too, and grimly accepts his task.
His ineffective stab at Frodo was actually an excuse to drop his knife so Wormtongue knew he was defenceless.
He had several reasons to want to die:
- He had nowhere in Middle-earth to go, and no more mischief to do. He certainly wasn't likely to be able to take over anywhere else in the current political climate. He also felt that Frodo's mercy had "robbed [his] revenge of sweetness" so he couldn't even sit on a rock and gloat to himself.
- To spite Frodo by making sure that both his mercy (letting Saruman live) and the reason behind it (the hope that Saruman might eventually find a "cure" for his fallen state) had no effect. At least, no effect on Saruman.
- To add one more crime to Wormtongue's name so the Hobbits were less likely to offer him hospitality again. Whether he lived or died, he wanted his one servant to be even more miserable than him.
- He had claimed that his death in the Shire would poison the area, and hoped some of the hobbits would at least half-believe him, giving them a few months' more grief.
- He thought his spirit might be allowed to return to Valinor to rest, and as the elves were unlikely to let him on a ship that was his only hope of getting there. This last hope was apparently dashed when his shade was blown away by a wind from the west.
Morgoth knew that his Balrogs were his most powerful assets, and that losing even one would be a huge blow to his power. It would be perfectly in-character for Morgoth to place this curse upon his servants just so he could spite anyone who dared challenge him in this manner.
This also fits nicely with the non-canon Shadow of War game, where another Balrog is cast into a frozen lake by Carnan. Carnan doesn't technically "die" in this instance, but her current avatar perishes, which would still fulfil the criteria of the curse.
- Christopher Tolkien says he may have been sent to watch over the nature of Middle-Earth as Yavanna sent him. Radagst was living near Mirkwood to protect those most threatened by Sauron.
- Gandalf says it wasn't him so they think it must have been Saruman. Yet attention is drawn to him wearing a hat and it is claimed Saruman goes hooded. Also the old man causes the horses to run away and when they return Shadowfax is with them. Radagast is the Wizard most attuned to nature, so the horses recognised him and went with him. He then sent them back with another horse, realising Gandalf had returned due to his birds.
- Apparently Tolkien wrote that only one of the Istari returned to Valinor, that being Gandalf. Yet maybe Radagast deliberately remained in Middle-Earth as he still needed to protect its nature.
- Perhaps he still needed to restore damage done to Middle-Earth by the War of the Ring. Apparently Tolkien may have intended Isengard to be given over to Radagast. Perhaps Radgast went to Isengard to restore the nature that had been damaged.
- But protecting the animals and plants of the forest from the war.
- He remained in hiding in Mirkwood, knowing they would be after him.
- But he had not seen Gandalf in many years, and so did not immediately recognize his now–aged appearance, nor know him by the name "Gandalf", which is why Gandalf had to name–drop his "cousin" Radagast to clue Beorn into his identity without explaining it outright in front of Bilbo. This also explains why Gandalf seemed to describe him as an old acquaintance to the dwarves, only to back–peddle hard when Beorn didn't know him at all. Think about it: Beorn is able to magically change shape, without any explanation whatsoever; Radagast is referred to "a master of shapes and hues". Radagast is a noted friend of the animals of Middle–Earth, caring little for its people, while Beorn loves his animals "as his children" and is as antisocial as they come. Both live in Mirkwood, Radagast in Rhosgobel and Beorn in an unnamed hall, and neither travel very far from their home unless it is very important to do so. And Beorn, beyond his general antipathy for other people, is a special enemy to the goblins, the soldiers of Sauron. The eagles even knew to deposit the dwarves (and Bilbo, and Gandalf) at the Carrick, implying that they knew of Beorn and that he would be a friend to Gandalf, even though Beorn seemed not to know Gandalf at all and to be very dangerous besides. In The Fellowship of the Rings, we learn that the eagles are used to working with Radagast, explaining this otherwise very strange choice.
- Incidentally, the story Gandalf told the dwarves about Beorn's origins was a lie he made up on the spot to protect his friend's privacy, which is why it sticks out like a sore thumb when the usually–silver tongued Gandalf stumbles over it.
- This theory comes directly from the Rankin-Bass animated Return of the King.
- So I'm part hobbit? Sweet!
- Jossed. Tolkien says that Hobbits are smaller now and they hide from us, meaning that they're still here but don't appear to humans.
- Indeed, Tolkien gives the hobbits a rather depressing Downer Ending: at some point in the future of the books, they lost their homeland, once again becoming wandering vagabonds like their ancestors, but this time they lost their craft and skills, along with their history and became physically smaller, ending up as hunter-gatherers always on the move, avoiding the Big Folk in terror (which indicates that humans were responsible for the destruction of the Shire and the hobbits' further strife).
- Obviously the entish draught is very hobbit-forming.
- Even their name is a hint (homo sapiens + rabbits)!
- "Is that a Hobbit?" "No, it's a Hobo and a rabbit, but they're making a Hobbit!"
- So...Frodo, Sam, and Sméagol committed cannibalism in the chapter "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit?"
- May I direct you to this?
- Remember that joke about how Tolkien could go on for pages about trees and not say the elves have pointy ears? Funnier now, isn't it?
- With Tolkien, hard to tell. There are base-12 human cultures that count knuckles using the thumb. (Each finger that isn't a thumb has three knuckles, and there are four fingers that aren't thumbs; that adds up to twelve.)
- Base 12 was entirely familiar to Britons at the time Tolkien was writing because of the mental currency system we were using - 12 pennies to the shilling, 20 shillings to the pound - and the similarly mental units of measurement with 12 inches to the foot. Doing arithmetic in multiple bases was simply a fact of life, and base 12 was the one that cropped up most often. Fortunately, we did not evolve a forest of tentacles on our hands to cope with it.
- But during the journey through the Helcaraxë their ears got so frostbitten that the points snapped right off. Lamarck's theory of inheritance of acquired characteristics took care of the rest.
- Normal orcs are descended from reanimated elf corpses. Uruk-hai are Frankenstein Monsters, mixing elven and human corpses.
- It's implied in The Two Towers that Uruk-Hai are Orcs cross-bred with Men.
- In the novel version, there was a race of cross-breeds created by Saruman, but they were a separate race from the Urak-Hai created by Sauron. Some could pass for human, though most had obvious signs of mixed heritage.
- It's implied in The Two Towers that Uruk-Hai are Orcs cross-bred with Men.
- This is supported by the fact that Tolkien got the name from the tale of Beowulf; in Old English, "orc-neas" means "devil-corpse" or "walking dead". Yes, they had zombies in Old English, too.
- From the brief description in The Silmarillion it sounded like Orcs were created via the torture/mutilation/brainwashing/etc of living Elves. But this works, too. After all, torture and mutilation are known to kill...
- That's certainly the case in The Silmarillion, which was gathered from J.R.R. Tolkien's notes by his son, Christopher; but the man himself was never entirely satisfied with the explanation, and was constantly trying alternatives, though it seems he never managed to find one that he liked.
- Tolkien in a letter suggests that Orcs may have also been derived from Humans, Dwarves or Animals. Perhaps the original Orcs were twisted elves. As elves cannot die, they can be reincarnated (as shown in the movie), making the original victim Elves the Uruk-Hai. To bulk up their numbers, the Uruk-Hai can breed with Humans, Dwarves or even animals forming the various breeds of Orcs. Note that Orcs always seem to be male. This has some relevance to Hobbits. Could Hobbits have been a breed of Orcs that escaped the taint of evil? Frodo and Samwise disguise themselves as Orcs successfully. Merry & Pippin are mistaken for Orcs by Treebeard. They originated just east of an area with large population of small Orcs.
- Orcs from Animals - as far as I can make out - surely solves all the doctrinal problems, both in-universe and with Tolkien's own beliefs? Is it not Catholic doctrine that animals don't have souls? If so, the problem of them being irredeemably evil surely no longer matters. Take a baboon or a chimp, which are pretty aggressive anyway, boost its intelligence and reshape its larynx by some dark art so that it can speak, perhaps also extend its lifespan much as Rings do, and there you have it, one Orc. Bingo.
- Hobbits are an offshoot of Men.
- That's certainly the case in The Silmarillion, which was gathered from J.R.R. Tolkien's notes by his son, Christopher; but the man himself was never entirely satisfied with the explanation, and was constantly trying alternatives, though it seems he never managed to find one that he liked.
- There is some support for this in The Silmarillion that Christopher published, actually. It mentions how Melkor-Morgoth was greatly reduced because of how much of his evil power went out into his hordes of evil creatures. Maybe in the form of animating elf-corpses?
- This also fits with many of the mythological origins of the story: in the Nibelungenlied, the dragon Fafnir was originally a dwarf transformed into a monster by his greed for the treasure he guarded, and Siegfried's companion Reginn (also a dwarf) was Fafnir's brother.
The only two characters we see who possess the Ring for several years are Bilbo and Gollum (or Sméagol), who are both Hobbits. Bilbo actually shows signs of becoming like Gollum himself twice in The Fellowship of the Ring: In the very first chapter, when Gandalf demands that Bilbo gives up the Ring, he refers to it as "his precious". Later, in Rivendell, when Bilbo and Frodo meets again, Bilbo asks Frodo to show him the Ring and tries to take it from him, upon which he appears to Frodo as "a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands", possibly implying that, for a short time, Bilbo resembled Gollum; note that this is before Frodo meets Gollum for the first time.
While it is absolutely possible that this "transformation" is the power of the Ring corrupting Bilbo the way it might have done with Sméagol (although Bilbo did not actually possess the Ring in Rivendell), here is another theory: While Hobbits in general are rather good-natured, if one of their own were to turn evil, their body and mind would change the way Gollum's did. Hobbits are notoriously unambitious, so even the worst of them are at most unpleasant, instead of outright evil. It took an immense evil influence, as the Ring was one, to turn Sméagol, and almost Bilbo, into the wicked, shady counterparts of the Hobbits.
Keeping that in mind, it would make sense that the Hobbits live such a simple, carefree and unambitious life. Keep yourself content with the simple pleasures, and don't get any silly ideas about wanting fame and fortune, as these are just a possible pathway towards a life of evil, which will turn you into a monster. In Bilbo's day and age, these stories are mostly forgotten, or regarded as cautionary fairy tales, instead of something that might have been a common occurence many centuries ago.
Creatures like orcs and elves came about as the military's attempts at creating bio-weapons to aid in battle. Orcs were their first attempt, but failed miserably due to them being super-strong, but incredibly dumb and easy to kill. Elves came next, designed to just be better than humans at everything. This worked well at first, but unlike orcs, the elves had minds of their own, and didn't like being treated like property. This lead to a rebellion war which the elves naturally won.
And hobbits? More than likely they're the end result of an eccentric billionaire commissioning a genetic experiment splicing human DNA and rabbit DNA. See the above post.
- "He was twitching 'cause he's got my axe EMBEDDED IN HIS NERVOUS SYSTEM!" Now how would Gimli have known that if the series took place in the past?
- People have known about the nervous system for a very long time, though for most of it they haven't know exactly how it works. Nerves are not a new invention - there's a reason why "nervous" is is a term of everyday speech, rather than medical lingo. In any case, the general knowledge of physiology was greater in the Third Age of Middle-Earth than in any known historical period before the modern times.
- Same way Uruk-Hai suddenly know what a menu is.
- Orcs came after elves, Middle Earth is not the name of the whole word (it's actually named Arda and Tolkien confirmed it's in earths "past".
- The moon and stars are exactly the same as ours, with some constellations and even particular stars quite clearly identified. (Menelvagor = Orion; Earendil's Star = very explicitly Venus; etc.)
- The red star seen low in the south by Frodo at Rivendell is Fomalhaut (which technically isn't red, but appears so in Northern latitudes because its light has to pass through so much of Earth's atmosphere at such a low angle).
- I've theorized this too. There's a general theme of "losing technology" throughout the ages. In the First Age, there were ships made of "mithril and elven-glass" that could fly in the sky and through space (i.e. spaceships). A long time ago, the planet was colonized, but the population wasn't able to keep up its technological might and fell back into the Iron Age. All the magic that seems to remain around is the remnants of Sufficiently Advanced Technology that they no longer completely understand. Only how to use it.
- Explicitly Jossed, though, by Tolkien's letters - specifically #165, #183 and #211 - as quoted here.
Similarly, many of the accounts of Morgoth's activities - raising up and throwing down mountains, the smoke and fire issuing forth from his underground forges, the shaking of the earth when they were at work, etc) are actually mythologised accounts of volcanic eruptions and earthquakes). The "War of Wrath" and the resulting destruction was either an exceptionally violent eruption and earthquake, or the result of a meteor impact (Eärendil casting down Ancalagon the Black and destroying Thangorodrim).
The Fourth Age, the age of Man, began during the last interglacial, but all traces of its civilizations (and of course, the civilizations of the previous Ages) were lost when a new ice age (the most recent one) began. This was also responsible for the changes in geography between then and now.
- Interestingly, placing the Fourth Age some time after the sinking of "Atlantis" (obviously a corrupted form of the Quenya name for Númenor, despite what Tolkien himself claimed) and before the last ice age places it in the same time frame as the Hyborean Age
- Extrapolating from that, most of the setting of the Conan stories is synonymous to Middle-earth and the regions as labeled in Middle-earth are lesser-known academic terms for those of the Hyborean Age.
- So the Red Book of Westmarch and the chronicles of Conan represent different mythic traditions relating to the same era?
- Don't forget the Easterlings, or, as we know them, the Indo-Europeans, whose invasions and conquering did destroy pre-existing cultures and civilizations (save for the Basque).
- Eh? FYI, Indo-Europeans include the Germanic, Celtic, Slavic, Italic, Greek.
- Exactly. Nearly all the people of modern Europe save for few oddities like the Basque and the Finno-Ugrians are of the Indo-European stock, meaning that most of us descend from conquerors who took over the lands thousands of years ago. Nothing is left culturally of the nations which preceded them. Yes, our ancestors destroyed the countries of Middle-Earth in Tolkien's mythology.
- Indo-Europeans aren't a monolithic "stock." Population-wise, Europeans at the dawn of recorded history developed from a mingling of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers (with a little contribution from the Neanderthals), Neolithic farmers, and Bronze Age migrants whom some researchers believe were the proto-Indo-Europeans. In the context of Tolkien, the peoples of Gondor, Eriador, Rhovanion, etc. comprise late Neolithic Europe (what some archaeologists call "Old Europe") while some group of Easterlings, presumably related to the Wainriders, will enter western Middle-earth a millennium or two after the fall of Barad-dûr (c. 4000 BC) representing the arrival of proto-Indo-European. It is plausible that the Northmen, with the addition of some Easterling migrants, roughly "map" to the ancestors of the Germanic tribes (keeping in mind of course that the representation of the Rohirric language as Old English at the time of Lot R is pure Translation Convention), that the Gondorians + Easterlings become Southern Europeans, etc. We can even entertain the idea that Westron, Rohirric, Adûnaic and so on formed substrates in modern Indo-European branches.
- Eh? FYI, Indo-Europeans include the Germanic, Celtic, Slavic, Italic, Greek.
- It's also possible that they are responsible for several polytheistic religions as a result of attempting to spread word of the Ainur. Which ones is anybody's guess, as the idea of pantheon isn't as distinctive and recognizable.
- Think on this: they were essentially immortal, there is no record of them ever going home, and there is no record of their deaths. Unlike elves, they would keep their immortality in the changed world. They might still be around somewhere.
- Sort of jossed in that Dwaves are symbolic of the Jews. Not the greed part, but that they awoke before the elves and have their 'thing' with Aulë ala Old Testament.
- Nitpick: The Dwarves were only allowed to wake after the Elves (they're not called the Firstborn for no reason), and the Elves had also been thought out before. So wether you count the invention or the actual appearance, Elves come first both times.
- Not really jossed. The Dwarves resemble Jews, narratively and linguistically (in the same way that Sindarin resembles Welsh), but don't forget that Middle-earth is just Earth in the distant past. The actual ancestors of the Jews (and of Zoroaster's Airya tribe) are already out there among the races of Men, presumably in Rhun (which corresponds to Asia).
- Going further with this idea:
- Sorry, but Tolkien's work does negate that possibility. Tolkien's notions of interbreeding were in accordance with conventional biology; Elves and Men can interbreed because the difference between them is spiritual, not biological. They are both "Children of Iluvatar". The Dwarves, however, were made by Aule - they are of an entirely different origin and are no more likely to be chromosomally compatible with Men than any other non-human species. (Come to that, they are probably not even physically compatible. Aule is a smith - an engineer - and he specifically designed the Dwarves to improve upon some of the physical deficiencies of existing species; it is inconceivable that a semi-divine engineer would stick with the standard mammalian reproductive equipment.)
- Tolkien was actually trying to recreate the lost mythology of Ancient England! Some of the influences from Norse and Danish mythology were things he believed were originally from the lost English myths.
We even have the Drúedain (Drughu, Pukel-men, Woodwoses) aka the Neanderthals. Obviously they survived the end of the Ice Age in small numbers, but even the fossil record of their extinction can be explained: after the First Age, the few surviving Drúedain joined the Númenóreans. Later, they abandoned Númenor and returned to Middle-Earth, long before its fall, because they didn't like the direction things were going. Thus, they disappear from Middle-Earth and the fossil record. Since their surviving numbers were so small, when they returned to Middle-Earth, they came back in such small numbers that they don't show up in archaeology. And by the end of the Third Age, they were clearly nearly extinct.
- And guess who Merlin is.
- It's possible, but an Easterling language (none of which are attested apart from a handful of pre-Third Age personal names) would be better-placed at that time to spread the way PIE is believed to have. And since, in Tolkien's history, the early Edain also came from the east, it's likely that Adunaic and the Easterling languages share many of the same influences, therefore any similarities between Adunaic and Indo-European languages might also have been shared by one or more Easterling languages, and not indicate a special relationship between Adunaic and IE.
It was all a conspiracy to control the flow of pipeweed coming out of the Shire. Gandalf, who is widely acknowledged to be the Chessmaster in the series, managed to convince everyone the Ring was a "weapon of mass destruction", and propped up Frodo as a sort of Waif Prophet, when in fact the Ring was a minor artifact or hoax. It explains everything - non-magically.
The premise of the Quest and the justification of the military manouevers needed to support it was all Based on a Great Big Lie - that Gandalf made to Frodo in Bag End. Much like the Children's Crusade to return a piece of the True Cross to Bethlehem, the notion of the One True Ring had great appeal to peasants, who believed in the legends of the Elves and the myth of the Great Rings, and Gandalf used this as a smokescreen for large-scale regime change.
As noted in the book, Gandalf used a mix of blackmail, rhetoric and magic tricks right out of The Man Who Would Be King in order to establish his friend Aragorn's claim to the Gondorian throne, enlisted a foreign Rohanian force to impose him on the Gondorian people, and "a coalition of the willing" to wage war against the (admittedly poorly governed) kingdoms of the south and east.
All of this can be traced back to Saruman, the real hero of the story, whose efforts to modernize the production of pipeweed and bring Middle-Earth into the 31st century were thwarted by Magnificent Bastard Gandalf, who wanted right-wing Dúnedain militia to have a monopoly on the means of production for Middle-Earth's most valuable resource (note the hints throughout the story about pipeweed's importance) — in order to fund their constant guerrilla campaigns elsewhere. A rigorous Straussian or Marxian analysis can thus demonstrate that, much like the Trojan War, it was all a fight over resources.
Desperate, Saruman sought a protective alliance with the dictator Sauron in hopes of building a modernist coalition to counter the agression and imperialism of the aristocrats and their claim of being "Ringbearers"; unfortunately, petty landowners refused to embrace land reform, and the Shire's resources continued to be exploited by tribal Hobbit chiefs who spent no money on the betterment of infrastructure. Sauron sent in nine "observers" to check the power of the brutal Ranger militias, who were financing themselves on the black-market with the export of pipeweed crop, kicking off the excuse for Gandalf's elaborate psy-ops mission to claim that "a Weapon of the Enemy has been found".
Unfortunately, history is written by the victors, and Aragorn commissioned The Lord of the Rings to be written from the perspective of the Hobbits, to re-interpret the historical record and create an extensive hagiography for Gandalf. (In reality, it was compiled in Minas Tirith, at least 60 years after the Hobbits are said to have lived.)
All the (non-miraculous) facts in the book are mostly true (Gondor's scholars were unable to cover up events), but put a pro-Gondor spin on everything and created a whole overlay of miracles and magic to justify the notion that Sauron's Ring, an entirely legendary object equivalent to the Holy Grail, had been found in a hobbit hole (!) and that only Frodo, a minor local mystic who believed in elves, could return it to Gondor's rightful fiefdom of Mordor (which had, not un-coincidentally, been recently lost to the infidels) and provide salvation — not hard work, technological betterment, or resistance against the Númenórean invaders!
It was really all about cornering the market in poppy pipeweed trade and preventing Saruman from obtaining access to Western goods, and to punish him for seeking a defensive alliance with Sauron, under the theory of containment.
He who controls the pipeweed controls the economy (the mechanism of addiction was not widely known in ancient times) and was capable of using their economic influence to oppress the non-Númenóreans and keep Middle-Earth locked in permanent Medieval Stasis.
Sauron tried to prove he had no such weapons, and that the Ring was purely myth and legend, and Frodo's ring a mere trinket — a Red Herring whose only useful ability was invisibility and to cause health and mental problems for the wearer.
However, Sauron's hands were tied since he himself had promoted the notion that he was a God-King, and had the orcs known he did not in fact possess such magical weapons, he would have been quickly overthrown. In back-channel negotiations, Sauron's sympathizers and peace activists pointed out that the notion of a ring with the Informed Ability to create military victories and "cover the land in the shadow" of the wearer was inherently ridiculous, and that Gandalf was engaging in a fear-mongering campaign talking about "the all-seeing eye of the enemy" and "a Nazgûl under every bed". But a volcanic eruption, no doubt engineered with high explosives, destroyed the evidence.
- Not sure where the Elves fit in this historical analysis. It is clear they were either entirely mythical figures introduced into the story to legitimize our heroes, or offscreen historical figures elevated to the status of immortals, or perhaps they were an actual aboriginal tribe of Magical Native Americans who had been the subject of various claims and superstitions after being brutally displaced by human incursion on their hunter-gatherer way of life.
No blood for pipeweed!
- David Brin agrees.
- A better theory is that David Brin makes up everything he says in his essays. In reality, he loves LOTR, but he's jealous that he didn't come up with the idea.
- A still better theory is that Brin is a LOTR fan but also a still-stronger fan of the Enlightenment, and this is his psyche's way of reconciling his fandom with his sociopolitical convictions.
- A better theory is that David Brin makes up everything he says in his essays. In reality, he loves LOTR, but he's jealous that he didn't come up with the idea.
- And subsequent annexing of all that fertile volcanic soil (further enriched by the blood and corpses of innocent She-Orcs, whelps and hospital inmates/old folks). Much of the narrative was completely made up, and the Orcs were mostly quite decent folk. Except Krishnak, whom really was summarily executed for mistreating a P.O.W.
- That tends to happen when you live with them, since they like to kill and destroy. Also, since they're like this way because of the Dark Lords....
- Well that's kinda racist. Just because an orc's an orc, they like to kill and destroy?
- In the mythology of Morlindalë much of this is Elvish propaganda; in this work the orcs were a shadow of the elves, formed to retain a natural balance that the elves in their immortality and superhuman abilities broke (Ungoliant's misery was likewise caused by the creation of the Two Trees). Orcs were mostly just miserable and wretched creatures who were hunted by the elves for no reason, other than hate they themselves couldn't explain, which was due to this connection, and this situation persisted until Melkor came along and taught the orcs how to fight back.
Lord of the rings was propaganda BUT Sauron and Saruman were still no heroes. Winners write history both sides had valid points and bad points but really it was just an imperialist war between two opposing factions ( Gondor wanted to cultivate the volcanic soil in Mordor and Mordor wanted acces to pipeweed in the shire.
Adaptations of The Lord of the Rings: In-universe WMG:
- Similarly, Tolkein's forward in the book shows his support for applicability. As someone who actually got to have early ideas of a filmed production of his book shown to him, presumably he would not sensible mind changes for concepts no long popular or relevant (e.g., the emphasis on mystic kingship de-emphasized, Sam and Frodo's relationship being less classist and more as initial equals)
Before his becoming a lieutenant, Gothmog was confined to simple sentry duty atop Cirith Ungol, keeping the many unruly orcs in line. One day, however, Gothmog caught some loathsome little snaga teasing Shelob in her lair. She attacks, but Gothmog steps in. Fending Her Ladyship off, Gothmog walks away with only a tiny nick from the Giant Spider's fangs. Unfortunately, he has an adverse reaction to spider venom, and so grows puffy.
A variety of ancient unicorn, called the "Monoceros", resembles these creatures; "[it] has the head of a stag, the feet of the elephant, and the tail of the boar, while the rest of the body is like that of the horse; it makes a deep lowing noise, and has a single black horn, which projects from the middle of its forehead, two cubits in length".
Naturally, unicorns as we know them are not the size of elephants, nor are on the side of darkness, but it wouldn't be the first time a familiar beast was re-interpreted through inclusion into Tolkien's mythos.
- Interesting, espeially when you consider Unicorns in the north european mythology the whole Legendarium is based on were aggresive and wild, which would lend them well to being on the side of evil.
- Actually, those creatures are called "Yurgs" in the Tolkien Mythos. They're like oxen, but bigger and tougher.
- Except a moth appears earlier, when Gandalf is in a tree and uses it to send for the eagles.
- Or perhaps the ring was just giving him some protection.
- "Is he gone? Nope; I'll just lie here a little longer then... I ain't getting stabbed over a piece of jewellery. Fuck *that* noise."
Cross-universe and Out-of-universe WMG:
There's the first one: "Macbeth shall never vanquished be until Great Birnam Wood to high Dunsinane Hill shall come against him". "Cool!" Johnny Tolkien thought to himself. "An evil king who gets defeated by an army of badass walking trees? What a perfect ending!" He was dismayed, though, when he found out that the prophecy actually meant: "Macbeth will be vanquished when Macduff's soldiers hold up a bunch of tree limbs and make it look vaguely like the forest is moving". So he vowed that when he wrote his own story, he would include actual marching trees. Hence, he gave us the Ents, who defeat Saruman by marching against Isengard.
Or there's the other one: "No man of woman born can harm Macbeth". Johnny Tolkien expected a cool Prophecy Twist from that one, but was dismayed when the twist turned out to be: "Macduff was born by c-section...which technically doesn't count as being born from a woman". "That's your idea of a cool plot twist?" he thought. "Wouldn't it have made more sense if a woman had bypassed the prophecy and killed him instead?" Hence, he gave us the Witch-King's death at Éowyn's hands. He's protected by a prophecy saying "No mortal man can kill him", so he gets killed by a woman. It made more sense, and it felt cathartic.
- Confirmed by Word of God, somewhere. Tolkien was annoyed by the weak outcome of those prophecies.
- Except that the second prophesy in Macbeth was "none of woman born shall harm Macbeth," which also includes women. Shakespeare was aware of prophesy twists, and didn't leave something that obvious lying around.
- Remember that Meriadoc is not a Man (in the sense of Homo sapiens) either. He is a male hobbit.
- Aslan is an allegory to Jesus, he is not supposed to be the same character the way Eru is. That said, the Wood Between the Worlds means you can link them (and many other settings) together with no issues.
- Actually, Aslan's dialogue near the end of Voyage of the Dawn Treader pretty heavily implies that he is Jesus in another form, rather than just an allegory to him.
- C.S. Lewis also explicitly said that Aslan is supposed to be Jesus, not an allegory of Jesus. Aslan is Lewis' fictional account of what Jesus would be like if he interacted with a universe of magic and talking animals.
- Also a problem: Aslan's country is explicitly described as being in the far East. Valinor is in the far West. So...
The thing began with some other alien racenote allying themselves with the Skaarj, discovering the planet and conducting a genetic experiment to populate it. The Skaarj being Skaarj quickly betrayed them and started corrupting everything they could (which explains the Evil not actually being able to create anything original). All they wanted was a race of minions to plunder Arda's natural resources.
The way how Melkor and Sauron could manifest as graceful could be explained by using advanced technology like holographs or remote-controlled puppets/drones. Which could also explain their recovery after engineered disasters like the fall of Numenor.
The Night Gate through which Melkor was expelled was actually a portal leading either to the Mothership or more likely to some parallel plane of existence akin to Black Sun Dimension. Melkor still resides there controlling the operation as a puppeteer.
Sauron being too smart to risk his life in actual combat wasn't really killed in the final battle at Barad Dur. The being they defeated was actually also a clone or drone.
The Nazgul are actually an imperfect attempt of Skaarj to make Archons (which is the second reason of the "good" aliens being the Protoss).
Also the dragons weren't actually engineered on Arda. Instead they were brought in from another planet.
- It doesn't have to be Terminator-style, does it? A Time Portal would seem more Tolkien's style.
- This theory is supported by Middle-Earth itself, time stands still and people from Isildur's reign wear exactly the same pseudo-medieval clothes seen during the War of the Ring, 3000 years later. And they still use swords and axes? It's obviously a universe inspired by Golden Axe.
- This is supported by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea's Illuminatus! trilogy, in which the seeress Mama Sutra reveals that the War of the Ring actually happened, and that the creature we know as Sauron was an escapee from H.P.Lovecraft's continuum - a Shoggoth. A pygmy called Phroto did indeed precipitate the downfall of the shoggoth. This makes J.R.R. Tolkein not so much an imaginative novelsit as a chronicler and journalist....
- Alternatively, he's from Oz.
- He's the Shaggy Man. Remember when the Shaggy Man rescued Ojo from the man-eating plant? He whistled a tune, and the plant let Ojo loose.
- Tom Bombadil is Santa Claus, and Sauron is the Grinch. Tom, who of course is really the spirit of Middle-Earth incarnate, switched rings on Frodo, claiming the Ring for himself. At the proper moment, he used the Ring to throw down Sauron, reducing him to powerlessness. Over the long centuries that followed, the Ring darkened his heart until he became Santa Claus, lord of greed, bringer of strife. It's all explained here.
- Or maybe he was just hanging around Middle-Earth during that hundred-year-or-so period when he was kept out of Narnia by the White Witch.
- Tom Bombadil is Thomas Covenant. He's just enjoying a holiday after his fairly harrowing adventures in a foreign land. What, the name wasn't a hint?
- Tom Bombadil is the Green Man from folklore, the manifestation of the British/Shire countryside. At least metaphorically.
- Tom Bombadil represents the reader. You are Tom Bombadil. He can see Frodo when he's wearing the ring, which has no power over him and Elrond says a world ruled by Sauron would have no interest for him but he could not take the ring himself.
- If that were so, then I'd be shagging Goldberry?
- Alternatively, Tom is Tolkien himself. There's never been a more obvious author proxy. His immunity to the story's internal logic also makes him a Mary Sue.
- Isn't anyone going to say he's a Time Lord?
- Well, he does say he's The Master.
- He's actually an incarnation of Suzumiya Haruhi, when she was going through an obsession with medieval fantasy.
- Alternatively, since he's male, he's an incarnation of Kyon, because everyone knows He's the power behind the power.
- Clearly Tom is actually a Refugee From Discworld. You know it's true.
- Clearly a wizard, most likely Ridcully in his more cheerful moment or the Dean after getting drunk enough to not mind being stuck in a forest. Someone must have made a new Roundworld with a different backstory, or changed the backstory of the original from before that business with the crabs.
- Maligree?
- Alternatively, Tom Bombadil is Ash's dad.
- Wasn't Ash the product of genetic experimentation in Carthage, a "reject" thrown out with the rubbish as a baby, who was picked up and adopted by a camp follower in the service of the company of the Lamb? Her twin sister became the General of the Carthaginian Army....
- I thought you meant the other Ash, Pikachu's friend. He does seem to be completely on his own,able to cope with any situation, helps out not just friends but people he doesn't know.
- Silly tropers, everyone knows that Tom Bombadil is Voldemort!
- Tom Bombadil is also Satan.
- Tom Bombadil is Jesus, Tom shows many signs of being Eru aka God, in fact the only reason Tom can't be Eru specifically is that Tolkien himself said that Eru has no physical incarnation on Middle-Earth, however all of the reasons for Tom being Eru work just as well as him being Jesus without the Word of God denying it.
- Tom Bombadil is a Jedi - or more specifically, the Force ghost of Anakin Skywalker as played by Sebastian Shaw (1983 original release) instead of the 2004 DVD release which had him replaced with Hayden Christensen. Think about it.
- It's darker than you think.
- Correct answer: Tom Bombadil is all of the above. Because he's just that awesome.
- Alternatively, they're just jealous they didn't come up with the LOTR first.
- Tying this into the second amendment to the next theory, this means that David Brin is actually Sauron.
- Which, incidentally, says absolutely nothing about the validity of his arguments.
- Tying this into the second amendment to the next theory, this means that David Brin is actually Sauron.
- This explains why in a suppressed 2010 interview, Boll said that he passed time between projects "reforging the Nine." In possibly related developments:
- Since last year, Seltzer and Friedberg have sported suspicious-looking "class rings."
- Computer enhancement of Boll's interview photo reveals a suspicious looking pair of "beading projects," apparently marked with the Tengwar for "McG" and "P.W.S.And."
- Jossed by a statement referenced in one of the Tom Bombadil theories- "he has stated in his letters that The One has no incarnation in Middle-earth", a statement which I apply here to Aslan.
- Not quite. Having no incarnation in Middle-Earth is not the same thing as having no incarnation on Arda.
- Narnia is explicitly (as per The Magician's Nephew) located in an alternate universe from Earth's. Middle-Earth, on the other hand, is Earth many thousands of years ago. Also note that Middle-Earth (Endor) is the name of the whole continent, not just the western bit we see on most maps.
- When you flip a map of Middle-Earth over and upside-down, then compare it to a map of Narnia, you'll see Ettinsmoor and Mordor are in the same area, the top-right. And both are barren, featureless plains, surrounded by a perfectly square range of mountains. A massive polar shift, caused by the cataclysmic events at the end of Tolkein's world, moved the points of the compass around to form Narnia as we know it!
- It needn't be so dramatic. Which direction is "up" on a compass is a cultural thing, for instance when the Chinese invented it they used South as "up" on their maps.
- It is entirely possible that they occupy two different areas on the same mega continent. Ettinsmoor and Mordor are simply the place in which they intersect. This would leave a sizable gap between the two areas. A gap that could accommodate The main/Land of Oz and its associated areas quite nicely.
- Alternatively, the maps line up along the sea, meaning that they are two separate continents across a gigantic ocean (Narnia to the west and Middle-Earth to the east.) As both worlds have another mythical landmass at the other side of the ocean (Aslan's country or the Undying Lands), the two worlds are merely semi-known to each other, through myth.
- One problem, since the Fall of Númenor, Arda was made round, from beginning to end Narnia was flat.
- I find the phrase "tiny hobbit skeletons" hugely funny, and it disturbs me immensely.
- Plethora. Bamboozle.
- The Balrog awoke from eons-long slumber after the dwarves dug too deep into the mountain. Where does that fit?
- That would be the Romans causing the Diaspora. I didn't say it a perfect analogy.
- The Balrog awoke from eons-long slumber after the dwarves dug too deep into the mountain. Where does that fit?
- Nice try, but it's clearly said the Ring can't be damaged by any ordinary means - neither the blacksmith forges, nor even dragon fire (nor, as Gimli has demonstrated, by being struck with an axe).
- nazg-gûl is Black Speech for "ring-wraith"; they appeared in the Second age and are identified as human lords of various Middle-Earthian origins.
- There never were any Hobbit settlements in Gondorian territory, they settled in Arnor.
- Sauron is clearly Metal Sonic, judging by his armour.
After the business with the War Games, the High Council of Time Lords originally marooned the Doctor on Middle-Earth, reasoning that there'd be less chance of him breaking his parole if they stranded him somewhere without much in the way of technology. They reckoned without him bumping into a bunch of Sufficiently Advanced Valar and setting himself up as a 'wizard'. Then the Doctor being the Doctor, he just had to go and get involved.
When Gandalf was introduced in The Hobbit, he was a slightly tatty, gregarious (yet still intense at times) vagabond, but following his near-fatal battle with the Balrog in The Lordof The Rings, he showed up as a white-haired, no-nonsense patrician with a more refined taste in clothes.
After the War of the Ring, he saw Bilbo and Frodo safely to the Undying Lands, then "borrowed" the Silmaril that the Valar had placed as a star in the night sky (they'd actually just launched it into a geosynchronous orbit), and used its power to jump-start his TARDIS.
He shaved and put his second incarnation's clothes back on before he left Middle-Earth, reasoning that, knowing his luck, he'd probably wind up on 20th century Earth, and whoever found him probably wouldn't be comfortable wandering around the woods with a heavily-bearded man wearing what was essentially a big white dress.
(A few hundred years later, he finally realised that he needed to return the Silmaril in time for the Dagor Dagorath, so he popped back to Middle-Earth in his Seventh incarnation, this time posing as his own, slightly clownish 'cousin', who was apparently a dab hand at bird calls...)
- It get's better. The 7th Doctor says he might be Merlin in another world.
- Sauron was a powerful Dark wizard, and the One Ring (naturally) was his Horcrux.
- Gandalf and his brethren were mighty wizard lords, wishing to crush the threat of Sauron before he overtook the world.
- Elves were the wizards of the old Germanic lands, isolated from Muggles who would wish to harm them.
- Dwarves could have been goblins, and hobbits could have been wild house-elves (or some wild variety of elf, now gone).
- When the "Elves" left for Valinor, the wizarding peoples were emigrating to Britain, where they could live more peacefully.
- Elrond is L. Ron Hubbard.
- The volcano on the cover of Dianetics is Mount Doom.
- ...that they walked out of their own world and ended up in Narnia. Coriakin and Ramandu, the magicians of the Eastern Sea are simply them living under different names. Their history as "stars" means that they were once Maiar, and through their duties with the Duffers and the sleeping lords they are atoning for leaving Middle-Earth and not fulfilling their roles as wizards.
- "ara" means "royal" in Sindarin, and if you combine that with "taur" (king), you get Arataur, which (roughly) means "King of kings" in Sindarin, while also sounding a lot like "Arthur". Also, both Mordred and Morgana contain "Mor" which means black, and is usually associated with bad things (Morgoth, Mordor, Moria, etc).
- Both are explicitly not part of Earth's history, though there are many similarities, not least of which are the Celtic Mythology roots. The geography and terrain of Prydain is also rather similar to that of Arnor, and the rules of magic also seem to be fairly similar. And in both, the paradise (Summer Country/Valinor) are in the far west, across the ocean. Hey, it's possible.
Tolkien's Works:The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Children of Hurin, History of Middle-Earth, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, etc
- The Animated Continuity
- The Hobbit (1980)
- The Lord of the Rings by Ralph Bakshi (Fellowship + Two Towers)
- The Return of the King (because of Bashki being unable to finish his second part, Treebeard, Shelob, and Saruman's fates are unknown. Bombadil and the Scouring of the Shire is not present)
- Peter Jackson's Continuity:
- The Hobbit Trilogy
- Lord of the Rings Trilogy
- Battle for Middle Earth 2 + Rise of the Witch King
- Sierra Videogame continuity:
- War of the Ring
- The Hobbit
- Fellowship of the Ring (ironically, the ONLY visual adaptation that has included Bombadil)
- (Possibly) Shadows of Angmar online game
- The Third Age Continuity:
- An alternate timeline to the Jackson films, where your party interacts with the events of the timeline
- Lord of the Rings: The Third Age
- (Possible inclusions) Lord of the Rings: Conquest
- Battle for Middle Earth I
- Final Timeline:
- Evil winning in Lord of the Rings: Conquest
- Evil campaign in Battle for Middle Earth I/II
To add one:
- Hack and Slash Timeline:
- Shadows of Mordor including some notable differences in the Ringwraith line-up
- War in the North
- The Two Towers and Return of the King (EA adaptations)