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WMG / Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse

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The story is about a different kind of three-way war between Lucifer, YHVH and the other gods.
  • It's mentioned that Krishna, a Hindu deity, is opposing Lucifer and Merkabah. The game starts with the main character getting brought back by Dagda, a Celtic deity, to be a 'godslayer'. It sounds like the other gods are getting sick and tired of putting up with the war between Chaos and Law.
    • It's suggested that he's opposing the gods in general and not just Law and Chaos. Especially if translations of him being the child of Lucifers arm is true.

YHVH will finally return in a pure form.
  • The theme of the game is deicide, and there's an image of this game where Lucifer refers to YHVH by that name - not as God or the Great Will, but as YHVH. Furthermore, this is the second time a main series game has been expanded upon. The first time was II, which was a direct sequel to I and featured the most recent appearance of YHVH.
    • Confirmed with a vengeance. He is also the final boss of at least one route.

The game takes place in a timeline like Prayers and Demonic Gene, where Flynn never existed
  • Why else would Lucifer and Merkabah still be around? Without Flynn to act as the Neutral representative, Isabeau would not have the strength to slay them, but they also would not be able to defeat the other. The end result is a stalemate that is only broken when Krishna and the other Old Gods decide to kill 'em all.
    • Jossed. There's artwork of Flynn appearing in Final. What this means, now, is an entirely different matter.
      • There is, however, an alternate timeline Tokyo you can access where no messiah (including Flynn / Masakado's summoner and Akira / Nanashi) existed: Twisted Tokyo, the result being that Tokyo was eventually consumed and turned into a massive Domain that hosts the Fiend boss battles.

You play as the reincarnation of neutral route timeline Akira.
  • Few reasons I suspect this:
    • Flynn from SMT IV was a reincarnation of a major character from SMT IV's backstory (the Counter Demon Force soldier who summoned Masakado / the roof), so having Final's protagonist be the reincarnation of another major character (King Aquila, the founder of the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado as we know it) would make for a Meaningful Echo.
    • Neutral timeline Akira had contracts with multiple demons, explaining how the new protagonist could end up on Dagda's radar.
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    • When the protagonist gains his powers, he gets a green mark on his cheek identical to the scars Blasted and Infernal Akira have.
    • Protagonist has same distinct eyebrow design as the Akiras.
  • Confirmed at the beginning of the game no less.

One ending will have humans living with the gods and another will have all gods killed
  • At least two of the choices the MC will make will be whether to ultimately side with Dagda or Krishna. Possibly your choice of partners will also influence this.
    • Partially confirmed. Siding with Dagda leads to the Massacre ending, but you never side with Krishna and the Divine Powers.

This game is an alternate timeline where Flynn goes Nihilist, and you're the poor bastard who has to bump him off.
  • It might be just me, but Flynn looks distinctly meaner in the new art. It'd make for an excellent Rogue Protagonist.
    • Jossed. SMTIVA is based on the Neutral path, with a fourth party (the Divine Powers) interfering.

The Demi-Fiend shall make an appearance.
It's finally a battle against YHVH. It wouldn't be right without him.
  • Confirmed in that he does appear, but Jossed in the reasoning. He appears in DLC alongside the Hero and Aleph to help fight Stephen.

In this game we will finally...
  • ...see what it is that caused YHVH to become the dictator he is and what the hell the great flaw of the universe is for something. Also this hangs a bit on that another WMG is correct, but if SMT IV and this game takes place during the 30 year timeskip of SMT I then this game could also explain what lead Lucifer to take a level in kindness and what made Gabriel the Only Sane Man.
    • The Topic of Satan and Mysticism brings up the idea that if demons can separate from YHVH and be evil then it's likely he was always evil.

Flynn was the one who made a truce between Lucifer and Merkabah
  • In the second trailer it shows Flynn alongside Merkabah and Lucifer, suggesting that he acts as a sort of intermediary force between them. Also a further guess is that due to this, if Flynn should die in the story, it would shatter the alliance between the two, probably to the benefit of the God Killer.
    • Jossed: Flynn is established to be aiming to defeat both Merkabah and Lucifer - i.e. the game starts off the Neutral route in SMTIV. The first time in the game when Merkabah and Lucifer are pictured together is when they are discussing a ceasefire in order to prevent the Divine Powers from making Flynn their Godslayer.

Dagda, gameplay-wise, will function as this game's Burroughs
  • Dagda's story significance implies that he will likely not be a starter demon the God Killer uses, instead acting like an equal ally to the protagonist, helping them with the mechanics of the game and commenting throughout the story. Also he is shown on a gauntlet-like device on the God Killer's arm, like how Burroughs was used.
    • Confirmed, somewhat. He resides in your phone and makes commentary from time to time, buut he doesn't tutor you outside of some training quests that he leaves you to do by yourself.

Ending Speculation
  • Flynn - SMT IV Neutral ending, except with you there.
    • Mixture of confirmed and jossed, in the Bonds ending. Both the people of Mikado and Tokyo come to coexist peacefully, but it happens in a manner different from SMTIV. In SMTIV, the people of Mikado immigrate to Tokyo so that Masakado can safely destroy the Firmament, and with it, Mikado. In SMTIVA's Bonds ending, after being rescued, Flynn goes back to Masakado's rock, only to be told that Masakado will leave the Firmament intact, allowing people of both civilizations to coexist without destroying either. There's also the matter of killing YHVH, who doesn't even appear proper in vanilla SMTIV.
  • Krishna - You allow the polytheistic gods to take control of humanity and trust their (hopefully sane) judgement in ruling.
    • Jossed. There's no route that aligns with them.
  • Dagda - Kill Lucifer, kill Merkabah, kill Masakado, kill Krishna, and kill any damn god who dares to meddle in humanity's affairs. Let humanity decide its own fate from now on, free of divine interference.
    • Confirmed, though in a twisted way, as it involves killing all of humanity.

Stephen is another avatar for the Great Will
  • What else explains how he can inexplicably appear in many alternate universes, survive catastrophic events no matter what, is always benevolent, and is the strongest enemy in the entire series with a level of 128 and requiring multiple chosens in order to defeat?
    • Jossed. He's actually a human who achieved enlightenment via a science experiment by accident. Mido and Count of Saint Germain are also on this level.

Dagda is a Reaper main.
  • They're both "edgy" Jerkasses whose powers involve death and resurrection. Why not?
  • And he is probably Susanoo main for the same reason.

The final neutral dungeon is, in-universe, obnoxiously long on purpose.
  • It was designed by YHVH or the Great Will as one final test of strength and patience for the heroes.

In Massacre, Nanashi will not suffer the same fate as Hijiri
  • It's implied in Nocturne that Hijiri is a reincarnated Aleph, and is being punished for killing YHVH. It's not as likely that Nanashi would suffer the same way Hijiri did for several reasons.
    • First, YHVH in this game has a severe decrease in believers. Yes, everyone knows that he exists, but no one worships him. In the second game, the Messians run the only city in the game and encourage fanaticism. In Apocalypse, only the people of Mikado believe in him, and it's relatively halfhearted. Going to Mikado on Massacre states that they've given up on angels and possibly God as well.
    • Second, more importantly, YHVH has no more believers in the universe, period. Everyone's dead, and Nanashi controls all the souls. Aleph could only kill YHVH but couldn't reshape the hearts and minds of the people he saved. It's a sad reminder of how Tokyo Millennium was built after the Neutral ending of I.

The real Lucifer is a background character in the game.
  • It's confirmed that the Lucifer that Walter fused with isn't the real one. He's probably running around manipulating events, somehow.

On the Massacre route, Dagda didn't brainwash Flynn
  • When Dagda resurrects Nanashi, Nanashi is still his own person and is fully capable of going against him (although Dagda can control his body). In contrast, Flynn is completely submissive to Nanashi, and even says that he's the reason for his existence. The partner brought back as the True Goddess comes as a middle ground; their hatred towards Nanashi vanishes and they're perfectly all right with destroying the world, but they still have their old personalities. Their quote upon being resurrected just has them thanking Nanashi instead of kowtowing like Flynn. Dagda bringing back the True Goddess and erasing their hate is the extent of his skill at that point in the game. Krishna probably was the one who brainwashed Flynn and broke his will; Dagda just took over.

Dagda doesn't hate friendship as a whole.
  • More specifically, he views the friendship Danu and the others preach as just a hollow herd mentality, an instinct for the weak. He views it as a corruption and complete mockery of the phrase. On the other hand he values the concept of true friendship highly, namely the situation where two beings can understand and respect each-other and remain individuals, and that no matter what happens and what someone might decide the do, a respect that endures even should they cross swords.
    • So... it's a case of You Keep Using That Word?
    • There is a Persona comic with a similar idea (Persona 4 TW Additional Add On, part 94). Basically, at the end of Persona 4: Arena Ultimax, Yu snaps and yells at Minazuki for claiming to reject all bonds. Rather than preaching at him, Yu points out that Minazuki had to have formed some sort of a bond for the plan to work at all, citing that Minazuki and Sho had to work together to make the plan go through, and Minazuki needed the power of Hi-no-Kagatsuchi. If Dagda were like Minazuki and really hated all bonds, then he would never have sought out a Godslayer.
    • In all seriousness, though, Dagda hates bonds, not friendship. The word bond in general can refer to relationships, but can also refer to Bound and Gagged. To him, bonds are a form of poisonous friendship where you have to conform to peer pressure to stay in. Dagda hates what the others call friendship, because real friendship works like I Want My Beloved to Be Happy: genuine friendship won't shatter if you go against the group, and The Complainer Is Always Wrong is not a given (not that it's always true or always false, just that it's not definite). Dagda mocks the fragility of human connection like the Hunter's Association, especially when they want to lynch two teenagers for accidentally releasing Krishna, and jump on your bandwagon when Nanashi kills Shesha. To the above comic, Dagda doesn't dislike relationships made purely out of pragmatism (i.e. he wouldn't have made the contract with Nanashi if he had an inherent objection to working with someone else, still associates with other people like Stephen).

Due to a Stable Time Loop, after Massacre, Nanashi becomes YHVH
  • Danu claims that YHVH created the world, but only after defeating the old gods, which Nanashi does by killing the Divine Powers. The Bonds route reveals that YHVH was originally good, but the endless amount of time he spent alone with no equal corrupted him.

Hallelujah is physically unable to summon any demon except for Chiro
  • This might come across as a lot of Fan Wank due to the amount of unconfirmed information. It's stated in-game that demons need Magnetite, and demon summoners fuel their demons with their own Magnetite. Hallelujah is a Half-Human Hybrid, so he produces Magnetite like a human and consumes it like a demon. Hallelujah produces as much as, or less than, a normal human, but most of it gets consumed as upkeep. He can't spend Magnetite on strong demons.

Demon summoners are only shown with one demon out at a time because the Demon Summoning Program drains a lot of power.
  • Real world smartphones eat up more battery when they're running a program. Manabu implies that having a demon out drains the battery by a lot. The Samurai's Gauntlets don't require an external power source (they don't have electricity in Mikado in the first place), and Nanashi is cheating because he doesn't need a phone to summon demons. This is why Asashi and Hallelujah have to summon and dismiss their demons every time they use a turn; they need to conserve power. There are a lot of exceptions; the Terminal Guardian in the previous game can just hop to a power station because he's standing in a teleporter, so he can summon hordes if he wants to. The Hunters in the tournament are inside a building where they probably can find a charging station.

Due to malnutrition, Nanashi looks younger than he actually is
  • In the Messiahs in the Diamond Realm DLC, both the Hero and Flynn call Nanashi a child, even though they are at most three years older (Flynn is 18 and the Hero is in high school, which could mean anywhere from 15 to 18). Puberty can be delayed in malnourished children, and Tokyo is pretty awful with food (besides the disgusting Hunter Association food, vegetables are a rare treat, everyone lives off of canned food or demon meat, and there's not much of it). The people of Tokyo are used to late puberty, but the Hero and Flynn lived in places with plentiful food and so see Nanashi as younger. In the main game, Navarre gets away with calling Nanashi, Asahi, Toki, and Hallelujah children because he's the oldest party member at 25 and actually knows how old they are.

Merkabah is aware of the Axiom and its mission to destroy YHVH
  • Consider his Famous Last Words when you defeat him: "Has the false messiah led you astray? The Creator will not tolerate this." His use of "false messiah" seems to suggest that he knows that the Flynn you rescued at Tsukiji Konganji is actually Shesha. Him saying that "the Creator will not tolerate this" can be interpreted as "you defeated the representive of Law and now the Almighty's gonna be pissed off," but given the mention of "false messiah" it's likely he knows about the Axiom and his statement is meant to be interpreted as "You fell for Shesha's trap and the Great Will is not particularly fond of one of its Messiahs being imitated for an enemy party's gain."

Krishna taught Flynn the Godslayer Sword skill while he was tied up
It doesn't appear in the DLC, where the Neutral route of SMTIV was taken.

Toki calls Nanashi 'Master' because it's the only way she knows how to express love
Toki is a Tyke Bomb, and spent her whole life being blindly loyal to the Ring of Gaea. Her two parental figures treat her like a disposable pawn. When Inanna shows her what love feels like, Toki copes with it by treating the object of her affections the same way she treated the Ring: with blind, Undying Loyalty. She associates love with serving someone absolutely, disregarding anyone else, and killing people for them, even at the cost of herself. After she's free of Inanna's influence, her emotions stabilize into a healthy crush on Nanashi. If Nanashi picks Massacre, she turns on him with the rest of the party because she figured out that love is two sided, and she can care for herself while loving someone else.

Mii, Kei, and Toki are members of a minority faction in the Ring of Gaea
Their aesthetics alone are very different (black instead of red, oni mask instead of Buddhist hat and robes), and their philosophies even more so. They all have the Ring's Hat of Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy, survival of the fittest, and complete acceptance of dying for a cause, but there are some crucial differences. Compare Toki to Kaga. Both are orphans raised by the Ring, but Toki is an emotionless backstabber where Kaga is a passionate Bare-Fisted Monk. Toki accepts an alliance with Hunters, while Kaga tells the Samurai that the Ring is much more powerful than they are without even testing them. They both accept their deaths and take suicide missions, but Toki quietly submits where Kaga fights Xi Wangmu with every fiber of her being. The Ring of Gaea in previous games were said to accept diversity, so this version of the Ring probably accepted Mii and Kei's childrearing methods as long as they stayed within the Survival of the Fittest philosophy.

Alternative Title(s): Shin Megami Tensei IV Final


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