- That... makes a terrible amount of sense.
- This may be my favourite theory I've ever read on WMG. To expand on the points in favour: if one assumes the Christian parallels fit, this slots neatly into the First Incarnation's story, as he commits a sin so grave the planes have been dying ever since. As mentioned, the Nameless One always lies that his name is Adahn, and when discovering his name realises that it's a simple thing, and not what he expected - the name Adam being deceptively simple. Further, this puts a new spin on the game's central question: "What can change the nature of a man?" Adam means, essentially, 'man'.
- And from a bit of a meta perspective, the answer the game essentially gives you (the player) is "your choice." From certain theological perspectives, Adam and Eve chose to exercise their wills and disobey God. This one DOES make a scary and remarkably awesome amount of sense.
- It makes me wonder what happened to Eve, though.
- Adding on to this theory, Adam's first wife, Lilith, became the "Queen of Air and Darkness" after being cast out of Eden, and mother of the demons known as the lilin, who came to people in their sleep and gave them nightmares — the Middle Eastern version of the Western idea of the "night hag". Hello, Ravel.
- It also means that the Nameless One simultaneously fulfills the role of Christ, at the end.
- Christian doctrine describes Christ, after all, as the "New Adam", a new father of all mankind who goes right where the original went wrong.
- Also, mind-bendingly enough, the Gordian Knot is an item you can find in Curst, described as being from "a distant Prime Material world." This means our world (or at least, a mythic version) is definitely somewhere in the universe of Torment.
- Trouble is, and I speak as both the son of a preacher and a lifetime D&D nerd when I say this, the cosmologies and metaphysics of D&D and the Bible are incompatible. Even aside from the obvious issues such as the respective quantities of deities and afterlives, there are such issues as: 1)The Bible runs purely on Black-and-White Morality, whereas in D&D Order vs. Chaos is just as important. 2)Evil is a corruption and deviation on the norm that is Good in the Bible, whereas in D&D Evil and Good have independent existence and have equal metaphysical "validity." 3)Angels, devils, and demons are all distinct beings in D&D, whereas in the Bible they're all the same "species" (for lack of a better term), the difference between them being the same as the difference between a good human and an evil one. 4)In the Bible, angels and demons are immortal, incorporeal spirits and The Needless. In D&D, they are as physical, killable, and in need of sustenance as a human. 5)In D&D, the gods and outsiders are sexed beings just as mortals are (Depending on the Writer, admittedly), whereas Yahweh, angels, and demons are not, due to predating such aspects of mortal biology as much as rocks and rivers do. 6)In D&D, the gods are finite in power, finite in knowledge, need prayer badly, temporal beings with a distinct past, present, and future, and can be killed. None of this is true of Yahweh.
- I must point out, that Planescape: Torment simultaneously takes borrows ideas from a more biblical mythos and ignores some aspects of the Planescape setting. The most obvious of those the idea of the Lower Planes being a punishment for Nameless One's crimes, him not being reborn as any of the lower planes bottom feeders, etc. Not fully conforming to Planescape canon doesn't make it worse story and being barely compatible with Christian canon doesn't make these thematic references, comparisons invalid, because the game devs live in our world, and 90s video games see a lot post Satanic panic counter-culture demonic aesthetic choices and self-reflection on their own Christian youth. You are right to take the "Adam" theory above with a grain of salt, but just because it isn't literally true and canonically incompatible it can still be thematically relevant and a meaningful reading of Planescape: Torment.
- The problem is that the Blood War has never had much in the way of collateral damage. It's always been contained to the lower planes, and is viewed by most everyone as a positive thing. It keeps the demons and devils occupied so they don't conquer the multiverse.
- Yeah, the Blood War is a good thing. It keeps the demons and devils fighting each other instead of overrunning the rest of the cosmos.
- According to canon source material, the Baatezu and Tanar'ri first met millennia before they discovered man, which means the Blood War probably predates mortals.
- Alternately, he is the reason the Blood War is necessary in the first place. He is the reason why fiends outnumber celestial by so much, why Good Outsiders, naturally-occurring and independent from deities in terms of both creation and growth (like lillends), are so much rarer than similarly natured Evil Outsiders. Somehow, the Nameless One fundamentally and permanently shifted the Balance Between Good and Evil towards the side of evil. What else could condemn a man to hell, no matter how much he changed as a person or did to make up for it?
- See the above WMG — the only mortal whose choice changed the very nature of the universe that much would be Adam (or his wife).
- What about Cain?
- See the above WMG — the only mortal whose choice changed the very nature of the universe that much would be Adam (or his wife).
- Why is everyone saying that the planes are slowly dying because of his original crime? I understood that his original crime simply damned him to fighting in the blood wars for eternity regardless of his actions afterwards. The planes are not dying because of his original crime, they're being slowly, very slowly, drained of lives by his immortality forcing death to take other people instead of him.
- Icewind Dale: The blind seer and the cat lady of Targos (confirmed by Chris Avellone himself)
- Dragon Age: Origins: Flemeth, an old hermit crone with intense magical powers and extraordinary longevity
- Fable: Theresa, blind seeress possessed of incredible longevity and arcane magical knowledge
- Knights of the Old Republic: Kreia, twisted blind seeress possessed of arcane magical knowledge. For bonus points, written by Chris Avellone and imbued with some elements that didn't make it into Ravel's character.
- Final Fantasy: Old and insane blind seer, Matoya
- The Dark Tower: Rhea of the Cöos
- Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines: Pisha the Nagaraja, a flesh eating vampire living underneath an abandoned hospital, with a vast knowledge of magic and the future.
- Silent Hill: Dahlia Gillespie, evil, demonic witch extraordinaire. Dahlia is probably only just becoming one of Ravel's avatars, and the first hint is her looking ancient while really being only 40.
- Dishonored: Granny Rags, the blind old witch who lives in her apartment, with magic powers and control over the plague rats.
- The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt: The Ladies of the Wood and She-Who-Knows. Four powerful old crones, three of whom are figuratively blind (deformed eyes and covered faces), the fourth being trapped in a tree.
- Blood And Wine: The Witch of Lynx Crag. A jilted lover with a vengeful streak, found in a very tree-themed quest.
- Pillars of Eternity: Caldara de Berranzi, an old crone with arcane magical knowledge who is something of a Ms. Exposition and is first found dead in a tree, and Lady Webb, an old recluse and cipher who takes over in exposition where Caldara leaves off. For bonus points, Chris Avellone also worked on this game.
- Also Grieving Mother, for her resemblence to Old Mebbeth, the magical midwife and branch of Ravel that the Nameless One meets early on. Aaaand there's Chris Avellone again.
- Torment: Tides of Numenera: Mother Tomaz, again for her resemblance to Old Mebbeth. It is a Torment game, after all.
- You can cast Gate to go to Sigil any time you like. In fact, you can cast Gate to get out too. It just so happens that most people can't cast ninth-level spells.
- If PST follows the rules of PlaneScape, Gate cannot penetrate the Lady of Pain's defense. Nothing can. If twenty gods teamed up to batter down her barrier, it would result in twenty very frustrated gods.
- More like twenty very dead ones. Her Serenity doesn't take deities messing with what's hers well. Remember Aoskar.
- Maybe his spell included polite ask for permission for his party? Since he himself stayed outside, and his party has not angered her before, she could simply shrug and think: "Sure, why not?"
- Or he just gated them to the nearest available portal to Sigil and elided that fact in his explanation.
- If PST follows the rules of PlaneScape, Gate cannot penetrate the Lady of Pain's defense. Nothing can. If twenty gods teamed up to batter down her barrier, it would result in twenty very frustrated gods.
- Godsbane...the avatar of the god Mask? Helped only so much?
- Morte's Fate Worse than Death is very appropriate for someone whose crime in life was along the lines of Cypher in The Matrix
- After more study of the Planescape setting, I shall elaborate. The Nameless One was formerly a fanatical Doomguard, and created Coaxmetal as the ultimate tool of entropy. However, he abandoned the Doomguard after realising what he had done.
- Or he was creating a mighty weapon for an even mightier foe, and it had Gone Horribly Right, as the weapon took the idea to its logical conclusion. And that's the threat what would weaken the Planes themselves, by the way.
- Hell, I'd rather have him as the healer than Fall-From-Grace. I'm totally going to mod him in as a party member.
- Fell was a canon NPC in the source material, so that might explain why he's so well developed.
- Specifically, Fell was the first (and so far only) Dabus to worship a god. He chose to become a worshipper of Aoskar. The Lady didn't take that well. At all. That is why Annah is so afraid of him.
- It also makes sense as far as the fact that he's the only one who can retain his memories goes. His mind has been broken so often that there is nothing left to break, leaving him with an empty mind, brimming with questions and longing to have them answered to fill that empty void that is now his existance.
- Alternatively, going by 4e Nentir Vale story, The Nameless One is the person who originally made contact with the Obryith lords; he was a follower of Tharizdun and established a link between his god and the original demons, which lead to the shard of evil being forced into the universe, lead to Tharizdun going mad, lead to the creation of the Abyss itself, the primeval war between law and chaos, and eventually the Blood War and now the Abyssal Plague.
- Ao is really an idiot.
- Except, depending on your ending, he's not guaranteed to join either side. In the best ending, I expect him to keep being good.
- Jossed. The Blood War ends in Fourth Edition, and the Planes are just fine.
- For a more optimistic twist on this, if we assume the Nameless One's original sin was starting the Blood War, maybe his redemption would be ending it by himself
- By that point he can qualify as a side of his own. And then take on both other sides at once.
- Also, one of the warlock's patron options in 5e is a powerful being that cheated death somehow, and also in this ed warlocks are frequently made to aid their in the War or infernal politics/intrigues in some way. Would be a marvellous plot hook - he's roflstomping both Hell and Abyss just to meet his friends again, and you're helping.
OK, this may not seem like much, but upon arriving in the hellish Planes, he picks up a weapon, nods and goes into battle. Sure, it could be a "yeah, that's a neat weapon" nod, or a "OK, let's go kick some ass" nod, but in a story where many little details seem to have real significance, this little gesture suggests that he's making a decision. So he has a choice. Then, just perhaps, The Nameless One has kept his incredible power but, after remembering his past lives, accepts that he has to redeem himself. Note that - as mentioned above - he keeps his human body, that there is a "what can change the nature of man?" voiceover, and that he didn't seem to die before undergoing his belated punishment - it looks like he was pulled bodily into another plane. Hence he probably didn't forget things. And knowledge, like belief, seems to be a very important thing in the Planes. And lastly, but very importantly - why would the Nameless One lose his incredible power? There is nothing that indicates he did.
- It certainly makes sense to me. After all, how does The Nameless One gain the memory in the bronze sphere? By feeling regret. How can he take full advantage of it? By accepting the regret, accepting all the evil, all the sins, all the pain his existence has caused to the point where he can weaponize it. Honestly, if you went through all that, the only logical conclusion is that he would, upon feeling full and complete regret for all his incarnations' actions, willingly take the punishment upon himself.
- This doesn't add up, when you speak to Aphril in Spellhold, she tells the player that she sees TNO standing in front of the Pillar of Skulls. This either the scene where he meets Morte for the first time or the scene experienced in PS:T by the player (more likely the latter imo). Eitherway, the timeline doesn't add up."I see... a walking corpse... he speaks... to a pillar of skulls? See, it is madness!"
- But then there would be others like him.
Gith created and led a race of xenocidal, slaving sociopaths - more than enough to condemn someone to the Blood War. The last thing Gith did before dropping off the radar forever was descending into the lower planes - officially to gather allies, but actually to seek Ravel's aid in attaining immortality. Why would he tell the truth to a race her regretted creating? And every Githyanki in all the planes knows instinctively that, somehow, Gith lives, but is lost to them.
- Debunked: Gith was a female, this is why the Githyanki society is a matriarchy, it's mentioned often in the Gith tribes lore. Githzerai aren't because while they respected her as the hero who freed both tribes (which were one at the time) they chose to follow Zerthimon's (Gith's right hand man in the uprising) path of neutrality over Gith's plan of "Let's be a dick to everyone now because we were slaves".
- Chris Avellone has stated that Yemeth is not the Nameless One's original name, though he did acknowledge that Yemeth could have been a past incarnation of him.
- THAT is utterly brilliant.
- Alternatively, he committed a grave sin but his regret magnified the severity of the sin to the point where he convinced himself that even an eternity of servitude in the Blood War wouldn't be enough to absolve him.