Follow TV Tropes


WMG / Dogma

Go To

Loki and Bartleby were indeed forgiven and allowed back into Heaven.

Loki certainly redeems himself at the end. And God said it all with that loving embrace - she doesn't really need words to say it any more clearly. Allowing them back into heaven arguably wouldn't cancel out existence - it doesn't prove God is WRONG, it proves God's infinite mercy. The sort that to this troper, is the only way the world makes sense.

  • Many would say that God said, back in the day, "They will NEVER be allowed back in," and, thus, they can't. But theological history has shown that God can change "His" mind, so if Bartleby was forgiven at the end (which is NOT expressed by a hug; that could have just been a 'there, there') he could have been allowed into Heaven because God changed her mind.
  • Another idea that as Angels Loki and Bartleby can never return, but as humans God can allow them back in.
    • The banishment could easily have been lifted once God was revived, and so some viewers assume that Loki (although not Bartleby) was granted forgiveness and re-entry to Heaven.

Loki and Bartleby's exile to Wisconsin was never intended to be permanent.

It was actually a Secret Test of Character. Bartleby thought he knew better than God (sin of pride) and convinced Loki to follow him. God wanted to prevent another Lucifer incident so exiled them to earth until they showed humility. Trouble is Bartleby is too proud, and Loki too easily led, to apologise and admit they were in the wrong.


Loki eventually passed this test when he tried to stop Bartleby killing Bethany and was forgiven and let back in not proving God wrong, but proving God's compassion. The same happened for Bartleby when God confronted him at the church and made him realize the true ramifications of all his actions and genuinely asked for God's forgiveness.

Metatron is Lucifer's twin.
No real proof for it, but something to ponder.
  • Well that certainly fits under wild mass guessing.
  • Lending credence is the fact that Lucifer was a Seraphim like Metatron before the fall.

The events of the film are all a part of God's Plan.
With the end goal being presumably to restore Bethany's faith and set her up as a proper mother for the next incarnation of the Saviour. This explains why God was so easily dispatched, why the Metatron felt the need to call for Bethany's help yet never intervenes himself, why nobody seemed to understand how plenary indulgence actually works, and why none of the other millions of angels in God's service, many of whom exist for exactly this sort of occasion, ever get involved.

God is Alanis Morissette
Like, the Real one. Meaning God doesn't understand Irony, making the Bible make much more sense, if you think of it as God trying to be Ironic.

Bethany has a special protective aura around her.
Which is why Bartleby didn't know she was the last scion until she told him. Who had the foresight to put this aura around her? Metatron, of course. If Loki or Bartleby crossed paths with her, the plan to rescue God and save the universe would fail, so he took extra precautionary measures.

God is Haruhi.
Seriously! Just look at how she acts! Which I suppose would make Kyon as Metatron.
  • She even does the eye thing that Haruhi does.

Dogma was the reason why the Clerks cartoon was canceled.
See The View Askewniverse

The reason Loki and Bartleby were willing, or even able to be willing to go against God's direct, unfiltered orders was because the message was clouded by their living memories after God didn't use the big voice and they didn't personally get to chat with God for a long time.
They may have gotten the message passed down through Metatron if they were on earth (in Wisconsin) when the exile was explained to them, or God has a business voice that specifically filters out all the cool and potentially earth-rending stuff that the Vox Dei can do (such as the voice that got put into the burning bush, or talked to Abraham and Noah). At the end, God telling Bartleby something only a few seconds long results in him realizing how much he messed up, which is because he'd been reminded of how amazingly, wonderfully, freaking awesome God is, the way humans are supposedly incapable of not exalting God once they're in "His" official presence, free will and all. If they had been banished to a really sucky corner of heaven, or to a commune of people who really, really love God and aren't afraid of showing it, they never would have thought about disobeying for more than a few instants at a time.
  • I sorta thought it was because, y'know... they were angels? Metatron's head didn't explode when he was RIGHT NEXT TO HER in the ending, so why should it be any different for Loki and Bartleby, so long as there weren't any other humans around, they should've been fine. They were banished, not turned human.
    • Two things: First, it's only humans that can't withstand God's voice. Remember Metatron's warning:
      Metatron: Anyone not already dead or from another plane of existence had better cover their ears.
    • Second, Loki and Bartleby are like Satan: they're banished angels. Satan went against God's will and didn't apparently have a lot of trouble doing it, and indeed all those who followed him into Hell didn't have any problem doing it.

The reason Bartleby and Loki were banished to Wisconsin is because, in-universe, it shares the defining aspect of Hell:
God's presence can't be felt in Wisconsin. No decent skee-ball machines.

Jesus had a child. It's probably similar to The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail.
In the movie, it was said that Mary also had children with her husband and Bethany is a descendant of one of them. But this would only make her a descendant of Mary, not of Christ. Yet she is always refered to as the last descendant of Christ in the movie. Why? Because Christ himself had children, and Bethany descends from one of them.
  • No- she is clearly explained to be the great-great-great-etc. niece of Jesus, not a direct descendant. Obviously holy genetics don't have any problem with this side-line descent; Jesus must have enough holiness to spare.
  • At least in Catholicism, Mary has plenty of holiness herself. Just being a descendant of her would probably be a pretty big deal, too (and apparently is).

The seven male businessmen represent the Seven Deadly Sins

Rufus is the son of Simon
Simon, the man who helped Jesus carry the cross, is said to have had two sons, Alexander and Rufus. Rufus is indeed in the Bible, he was just never said to be a prophet.

Loki is/was an alcoholic.
He's the reason God declared angels are no longer allowed to imbibe alcohol. And when he becomes mortal, the first thing he does is get shitfaced. He probably took up drinking to deal with all the atrocities he had to commit as God's enforcer/ angel of death.

How well does it match the trope?

Example of:


Media sources: