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Idealist vs. Pragmatist

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Conflicts encompass more than just between good and evil. They are often between two certain kinds of good, which can be internal and external with each other. These kinds of good would often be classified by two kinds of people with similar but conflicting values.

On one side, there is someone who strongly believes in higher ideals. They have clear compulsions against killing, believing it either absolutely something to be avoided or saved for the heat of battle, and is reluctant to result in the death of one of their own. They are firm believers in the Power of Trust, believing their strength comes from honesty. They would also prefer resolving conflicts through diplomacy, and on the governmental side, would rather give everyone a voice and the freedom to choose their lives instead of having everything set for them. It fits well for a Wide-Eyed Idealist or someone who puts Honor Before Reason. After all, The Golden Rule hints that good karma comes out of it. However, an idealist could fall into Black-and-White Insanity, such as persecuting those who Shoot the Dog, even if the action clearly prevented a worse outcome. Their ideals could also prompt them to make irrational decisions that cause trouble in the long run.

On the other side, "The end justifies the means." This quote is misattributed Niccolo Machiavelli as his most famous work, The Prince, was one of the first essays on extreme pragmatism in government and diplomacy. The very term "Machiavellian" is today used to describe someone who does not care if their actions are highly ill-received as long as the job is done in the most effective way possible. They would sacrifice one of their own if it means saving far more people than otherwise. They would have a more authoritarian aspect as well, keeping their enemies tied up in lies and political games while using military force against foes who cannot be reasoned with. It fits well for a Byronic Hero and any kind of Anti-Hero who is not too tied to morality, though he might be seen as a hero anyway by making decisions no one else could have made. Of course, this can also backfire as using force, or even the threat of military force, can create the opposite effect and make a situation even worse.

It often results in Teeth-Clenched Teamwork when they are on the same team since their views are incompatible. Sometimes, they will not be classified as people but certain choices that people can make, mostly seen in video games and visual novels. A Moral Pragmatist may be the middle ground to this, as the moral thing sometimes is the pragmatic thing to do. Which one the work declares is right usually depends on where it is on the Sliding Scale of Cynicism vs. Idealism — cynical works side with the pragmatist while naturally, idealistic works side with the idealist.

See also Team Mercy vs. Team Murder. Compare To Be Lawful or Good, where the Idealist and Pragmatist could be on either side. When such a conflict occurs, it results in White and Gray Morality or even a Morality Kitchen Sink. See also Can't Default to Murder, in which a usually very violent pragmatist is held back by a more pacifistic idealist. This is a common means to inject conflict into a Technician/Performer Team-Up, though which falls on which side can vary.

This is a debate that actually occurs in real-life philosophy, namely between Deontology (where the idea that the good or evil of an action depends solely on whether it fits some set of rules) and Consequentialism (where the idea that the good or evil of an action depends solely on the results). That being said, real people can't be cleanly fit into the labels "Idealist" and "Pragmatist" as their motivations would be more complex than a fictional character, and as such, No Real Life Examples, Please!


Examples:

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    Anime & Manga 
  • Bungo Stray Dogs: This is one of the reasons Dazai and Chuuya do not get along. Dazai rarely factors morality into his plans and is usually willing to employ any number of underhanded methods to accomplish his goals. Chuuya, on the other hand, prefers fighting challenging opponents to winning easy battles and detests Dazai's unethical tactics, though he begrudgingly admits they are always successful.
  • Code Geass: Suzaku is an Idealist who refuses to kill civilians, let alone resort to terrorism, believing everything should be done through faith in the system. Lelouch is a Pragmatist who finds the Britannian aristocracy as too cut off from reality and that forcing them out is the only solution.
  • Dance in the Vampire Bund: A conflict in the early chapters of the manga center around allowing the vampire children of the Bund to be able to go to a human school and this pits Battle Couple Mina Tepes and Akira Kaburagi Regendorf against each other. Mina is more pragmatic and ruthless and forces this decision by threatening to permanently vampirize the grandson of a minister to force him to allow them into the school. In contrast, Akira is more idealistic and feels this is too far and even gains a Broken Pedestal that lasts a bit because of this.
  • Death Note: Light Yagami, despite having a god complex and being self-convinced that he is the hero, is a Pragmatist who sweeps the world of its most notorious criminals including those who are on the run or somehow got away with their crimes by exploiting the system. As a result of his actions, crime and wars around the world plummet to an all-time low. The Anti-Kira Task Force and its affiliates are Idealists, with some to the point of near fanaticism. While they have lines they do not cross, they strongly believe that killing is wrong no matter who the victim is or what the circumstances are, and they especially treat the Kiras as nothing more than monsters who deserve to be locked up for life.
  • This is seen in Moriarty the Patriot with Sherlock Holmes and John Watson. Their very first mystery together in A Study in "S" ends with Sherlock considering an offer to murder a man in cold blood to get answers about The Lord of Crime while John is entirely horrified. Unfortunately for John, this is only the beginning of this dynamic.
  • My-HiME:
    • In episode 9, Mikoto has tripped an alarm at an abandoned District One facility that Natsuki is investigating. She tells Mai and Mikoto to look for any info they can find, and then meet her back at the entrance in five minutes. When they meet up, there's already a police officer at the door. Natsuki, firmly a pragmatist at that point, summons her Element, a pistol, preparing to shoot the officer. Mai, firmly an idealist at this point, pushes the gun down, and insists they surrender. Natsuki points out that it might be a District One operative and not a real cop, but Mai isn't budging. After they're rescued by Sakomizu, he reveals that it was genuine cops.
    • After a bit of Character Development, Natsuki starts to move more to the side of idealism, informing Mai that she refuses to play District One's game and participate in the Festival, seeing as how the organization was responsible for her mother's death. Her Arch-Enemy, Nao, however, is not only more on the side of pragmatist, she proves herself a Combat Pragmatist. Knowing that both Natsuki's Element (pistols) and Child (a combat wolf with twin cannons) give her range, Nao instead arranges to ambush her on a coastal road, using her Razor Floss to take out Natsuki's motorcycle while she's rounding a blind curve.
    • As the Festival gets started in earnest, Yukino is blackmailed into attacking Mai. She decides that due to Mai's power, a sneak attack using her Child's vines and coming from behind would be ideal. When Mikoto rescues Mai, Mai orders Yukino to leave, still firmly clinging to Thou Shall Not Kill.
    • Haruka and Shizuru are another case. Haruka is Hot-Blooded, believes in Justice, and believes she serves higher ideals, telling Yukino things like "no dirty tricks if you work with me". By comparison, Shizuru is pragmatic, Brilliant, but Lazy, delegating authority whenever possible, usually dumping the workload on Haruka, and is a self-loathing lesbian secretly in love with her best friend. Her response to anything that threatens her or her crush, Natsuki, is to utterly annihilate it.
  • A massive focal plot point of Naruto is a central conflict between two characters that symbolize both sides of the trope in conflict while wanting the same goal. One idealistic character symbolizes using Love and The Power of Friendship to achieve their goals, while the pragmatic opposite uses Power and Might Makes Right to reach their ends. All of this ties back to the sons of the Sage of Six Paths who would go on to reincarnate across generations to continue their struggle. The titular Naruto and his rival Sasuke would serve as an example as well as their predecessors Hashirama Senju and Madara Uchiha.
  • Psycho-Pass: Inspector Akane Tsunemori is one of the few idealistic characters in a dystopian futuristic environment where the Sibyl System uses pragmatic and morally questionable means to instill peace and order in Japanese society. Akane's idealism is challenged throughout the show which tends to bite back at her. But she still retains her ideals in a much more realistic take. Her Enforcer partner Shinya Kougami, who is a Moral Pragmatist, trusts her very much and believes her idealism can balance out her role as an Inspector.
  • Space Battleship Yamato 2199: After seeing the awesome destructive power of the Wave-Motion Gun, Nanbu takes the pragmatic stance that they should use it to wipe out the Gamillon fleet, starting with their forward base on Pluto that has been bombarding Earth with planet bombs. Kodai says that it's too powerful, and would destroy Pluto, ultimately causing more problems for Earth. Okita decides the WMG will only be used for self-defense, that their mission is to reach Iscandar, not pick more fights with the Gamillon. This decision pays off at the end of the series when Starsha considers not saving humanity, incensed that they used her gift to create the WMG in the first place. But her sister Yurisha points out that they only used it in defense, never to initiate a conflict. And Redof Hyss pointed out that the Yamato saved Gamillon from Dessler's attempted Colony Drop, saving their enemies with the self-same weapon. Okita's adherence to idealism ultimately helps save humanity.
  • Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann: The second half of the series presents Rossiu as one who is willing to Shoot the Dog in order to make any progress with the limited resources under his command. Simon refuses to sacrifice anyone. The latter ends up more successful.

    Comic Books 
  • The DCU: Whether or not killing is justified under any circumstances has been a source of conflict between Wonder Woman and other superheroes, particularly Superman and Batman. The most (in)famous example is when Diana killed Maxwell Lord in order to stop him from using Superman to slaughter people in the lead up to Infinite Crisis; while Diana felt the act was necessary to stop Max's murders, Superman and Batman felt she had betrayed what the League stood for. Note that this was not the first time Diana had killed someone, just the first time she'd killed someone who was human.
  • Transformers:
    • Early in Marvel's Transformers comics, Prowl and several other Autobots suggest using the life-granting power of the Creation Matrix to create Ultimate Autobots: powerful warriors they can use to crush the Decepticons. Their argument is Pragmatic: the longer the war carries on the more damage is done to Earth, therefore anything that brings about the end of the war sooner is a good thing. Optimus Prime's opposition is Idealist: The Creation Matrix is meant to bring about life, and using its life-giving properties to create beings meant only to kill would be a perversion of that function. He also fears an escalation: the creation of Ultimate Autobots would most likely lead to the Decepticons creating Ultimate Decepticons to counter them. Unusually, the Matrix itself grants Optimus Prime a vision that implies it agreed with Prowl's Pragmatism, leading to the creation of the Aerialbots as dedicated war machines. Alas, Optimus's fears turn out to be accurate, as the Decepticons create the Stunticons to counter the Aerialbots.
    • In the Earthforce comics (exclusive to the Transformers UK continuity), Grimlock is very much on the Pragmatist side and actively mocks Optimus Prime's Idealist stance, viewing it as weakness. In one comic he derides and sneers at the Autobot Code as being outdated and useless. That said, the time he actually led the Autobots as a whole his leadership was disastrous: he spent most of his time picking fights with other Autobots for challenging his authority and openly considered human casualties to be "acceptable". This cost him the respect of the other Autobots, and so when Optimus Prime returned the Autobots kicked Grimlock out of his post and welcomed Optimus back.
  • Ultimate Marvel: Nick Fury often reacts to crisis with a pragmatic approach, has little concern for Collateral Damage and takes little issue with killing villains. The Ultimates usually have a similar perspective. Sometimes the plot justifies it by making the villain really powerful and leaving the heroes with no other options, and other times this leads to a conflict with idealistic heroes such as Spider-Man who try to Take a Third Option.
  • This is the central crux of the conflict between Daredevil and The Punisher. Both characters have few to no superhuman enhancements and deal primarily with street-level crime, but their opposing philosophies lead to vastly different approaches. Daredevil is a lawyer and a Christian who believes taking any life, no matter how bad, is morally and ethically wrong and that the justice system should sort out criminals since that’s what it was created to do in the first place. The Punisher, on the other hand, believes killing criminals is the only way to stop them for good and has taken to gunning down every last one he meets. What makes the conflict interesting is that both men have an amount of respect for each other regardless of their methods and it’s never made explicit who’s supposed to be “right”.

    Fan Works 
  • A Supe of a Man: Lois is practical to Clark's idealism. When Clark angrily confronted Hughie and Lois about their membership in The Boys, Lois admits that she's not happy to resort to justifying murders, extortion, and breaking the law, but she was screwed over by a system that protects the corrupt Supes. She believes that Clark can't understand because he has the power of a god. However, Clark can be more accurately described as realistically pragmatic than a pure idealist. While he is tempted to act like a vigilante, not only could he endanger others if he lost control but murdering the likes of Homelander would be detrimental to his reputation, and he doesn't have the support to do that. In short, while he understands Lois and Hughie need to be vigilantes, there are serious consequences, pragmatic and idealistic, if he acts out.
  • This is one of the causes of conflict between Lelouch and his childhood friend Suzaku in Code Prime: As in canon Lelouch is the pragmatist whereas Suzaku is the idealist. Lelouch, being a former prince of Britannia, knows full well how corrupt the empire is, especially since they’re allied with the Decepticons, and wishes to topple the current system. Suzaku however, believes that achieving a goal through dishonorable means is no victory, and hopes to become an Internal Reformist, even when Optimus warns that he might end up Inherent in the System instead. It takes the SAZ Massacre, and Lelouch calling him out on it when he tries to blame him for the Massacre occurring, as well as asking him if he’s gonna start blaming Euphemia for his mistakes, does Suzaku realize that he had no chance of changing Britannia, and joins the Black Knights against the empire and the Decepticons.
  • Knight of Death and Rebirth:
    • Lelouch uses whatever means to defeat the Big Bad Ensemble composed of Britannia, the Order of the Chief God, and the Mamono. Most of the Mamono are Idealists who hate killing people and wish to diplomatically ease Lelouch's hatred towards the Royal Makai.
    • Members from the eventually defunct Order of the Holy Ice Flower are on either side. On the Idealist side, they try to restrain Lelouch from going off the deep end such as abusing his Geass. On the Pragmatic side, they're willing to one-sidedly slaughter Britannian soldiers and Mamono whenever they murder civilians or resort to actions they find utterly distasteful.
  • The Mountain and the Wolf: The Wolf (aka Wulfrik the Wanderer, the High Executioner of the Chaos Gods of Warhammer Fantasy) repeatedly comes into conflict with his own side (that is, Daenerys' side, but he also arranges to provide Cersei with War Elephants) several times due to his pushing for ever-less restrained action, most notably over how the siege of King's Landing should be handled. He seems convinced that Daenerys has a goal and personality typical of a Chaos warlord, and seems genuinely confused that she wouldn't try to act like one. His sheer size and strength keep the confrontations from becoming physical, and while he's never truly convinced by Tyrion or Daenerys, he only takes out his frustration at being contradicted on inanimate objects.
    • He makes it no secret that he wants an out-and-out battle and even advises Daenerys to ignore the bells if she hears them, and arranges a False Flag Operation that causes her to torch the city when they surrender peacefully.
    • When Jon Snow and Grey Worm are arguing over the fate of the Lannister prisoners (Jon wants them imprisoned until Daenerys decides their fate, Grey Worm wants to kill them), the Wolf shows up and starts murdering the Lannisters in so needlessly gruesome a fashion that even Grey Worm prefers to spare the Lannisters than be seen to agree with the Wolf.
    • The Wolf and Tyrion have an argument that degenerates into a screaming match over what Daenerys will do once she returns (having snapped out of her Unstoppable Rage and flown away): turn her sights on conquering the world (the Wolf's opinion) or break the wheel (Tyrion). It ends when the Wolf realizes he's about to let slip that he caused Daenerys to attack and leaves without a word. Tyrion is eventually proven right, for a little while.
    • The Wolf asks Daenerys for permission to butcher the Lannisters in her name so she can start her reign of terror properly. An increasingly angry Daenerys turns him down, then his offer to beat them into a military force worthy of her, and keeps insisting that she's inviting assassination and intrigue by showing herself to be merciful.
    • However, when Jon orders the Wolf to sail after Arya, who's taken a ship to assassinate Euron. The Wolf is the one who calmly explains that it's a fool's errand to send a single ship after her (something Davos already told Jon). The fact that he knows the Iron Fleet isn't actually sailing to King's Landing as per his orders might have something to do with it.
    • The Wolf is utterly taken aback at what he sees as Intolerable Tolerance in Westeros society (it never seems to occur to him that some are motivated precisely because he advocates an immoral course of action), such as Bran never naming Jaime as the man who broke his legs, Davos Seaworth willingly following the man who chopped his fingers off, Daenerys pardoning the Lannisters, Tyrion letting Bronn go after a failed attempt on his life.
  • In Scootertrix the Abridged, Princesses Luna and Celestia frequently butt heads over how to govern Equestria. Luna consistently advocates a more traditionally moral approach: helping Equestrian citizens in need, and approaching other nations with diplomacy first, only employing violence as a last resort. In contrast, Celestia regularly trolls her own citizens for fun—and her approach to dealing with emergencies is to either dump the problem onto her undertrained "top apprentice" and hope for the best, or do nothing and let her citizens figure it out themselves. Celestia justifies her apparent callousness as "tough love": in spite of all logic, her approach somehow keeps working out for the good of everyone. A major twist in the series finale ultimately undermines this justification: Celestia reveals that for centuries, she's been using a magic spell to ensure all her decisions, no matter how hare-brained, work out for the best. She admits that without this magical crutch, she'd have brought Equestria to ruin with her poor impulse control, and explicitly acknowledges that Luna always has been a better ruler than her.

    Films — Animation 

    Films — Live-Action 
  • The Dark Knight Rises: Bruce Wayne a.k.a. Batman strongly follows the Thou Shalt Not Kill policy. Selina Kyle a.k.a. Catwoman is willing to kill and steal if needed. The latter ends up more successful when confronting Bane.
    "The whole 'no guns' thing? ... I'm not sure I feel as strongly about it as you do."
  • Marvel Cinematic Universe:
    • Most conflicts involving this trope are centered around Steve Rodgers/Captain America and Tony Stark/Iron Man. Steve retains a moral code in addition to his ideals, such as not lying to people nor pointing guns at others in the name of protection. Stark completely privatizes his arc reactor and Iron Man suit technology, additionally hogging all other kinds of technology into the hands of the few people he trusts (Damage Control, Avengers, SHIELD, etc.), to personally enforce world peace and security.
    • Captain America: The Winter Soldier has the titular character on the Idealist end. His counterpart, Nick Fury is willing to lie and keep secrets from people. At one point, he forced a hostage rescue operation and the elimination of an eco-terrorist cell when negotiations failed with them.
    • The last two films of the Avengers Infinity Saga favors the Pragmatist side. Avengers: Infinity War has the team stick by the "we do not trade lives" mindset, which results in Thanos obtaining the Stones anyway and wiping out half of all life in the universe. Avengers: Endgame changes their mindset to "whatever it takes" to stop Thanos, resulting in them winning with the loss of only two named characters.

    Literature 
  • Ciaphas Cain: Cain, versus any named one-book commissar, and Amberley Vail, versus any other Inquisitor she encounters (Rasmus Vekkman in Choose Your Enemies excepted), are the pragmatists. Cain is reasonable, brave, and steady-handed with his troops, hewing much more towards the "morale officer" part of his job than the "shooting retreating soldiers" part, ostensibly because commissars who don't, tend to become the targets of Unfriendly Fire. Amberley, meanwhile, is a moderate who protects the Imperium from alien threats while causing as little collateral damage as she can manage, mainly by trying to arrange things so that the right people are in the right place at the right time.
  • Discworld:
    • The dynamic between Sam Vimes and Carrot Ironfoundersson can be considered this. Both of them have moral codes that they stick to — it's just that Vimes's is shaped by thirty years of seeing the worst in humanity. They serve as Foils to each other, with Vimes tempering Carrot's youthful idealism, while Carrot reminds him what it means to be a good copper.
    • The older witches, especially Granny, are pragmatists to Magrat's idealist, with Nanny at one point saying the main rule Granny follows is "When you break rules, break them good and hard". However, unlike Vimes and Carrot, Granny generally dismisses Magrat's viewpoint, seeing her as a "wet hen" whose soppy ideas stop her being as effective as she could be.
  • How a Realist Hero Rebuilt the Kingdom shows the contrast between the summoned hero Souma of the Eflreiden Kingdom and Empress Maria Euphoria of the Gran Chaos Empire. Souma is a Machiavelli fanboy who takes a realistic approach while Empress Maria is an idealistic ruler loved by her people yet is inexperienced in ruling herself, relying on her sisters to govern for her. Souma himself defines their contrast as Maria bring good at heart but having the Fatal Flaw of always anticipating the best of all circumstances, whereas he has foresight over every worst-case scenario.
  • The Hunger Games: Katniss frequently opposes some of the most ruthless traps devised by Gale such as one targeting medics caring for wounded soldiers or one threatening the targets' children, along with initiatives such as burying alive the Nut of District 12, even though there were innocent civilians inside. This attitude is best shown by the following exchange:
    Katniss: I guess there isn't a rule book for what might be unacceptable to do to another human being.
    Gale: Sure there is. Beetee and I have been following the same rule book President Snow used when he hijacked Peeta.
  • Inadequate Heir: When philosopher prince Keris of Maridrina and general Zarrah of Valcotta first meet, this seems to be the case. Over the course of the book it turns out, however, that Keris can be a skilled politician ready to manipulate everyone around him, while Zarrah is at one point ready to die for her ideals.
  • Legend of the Galactic Heroes:
    • Yang Wenli is an Idealist who hates fighting and would rather win without casualties but prefers obeying his superiors and doing things through the democratic system, even when the people in charge and their decisions state otherwise. Yang makes notable successes such as the capture of Iserlohn Fortress without a single loss, but his inactivity also causes millions to die, the Alliance to surrender, and himself getting killed before he could take power and practice his beliefs. While Reinhard von Lohengramm does have a code (i.e. preferring to gain power through merit over blackmail), he is mainly a Pragmatist who prefers doing things efficiently, even if it means jumping the chain of command and angering his superiors. Reinhard has notable failings such as the nuking of Westerland, yet he ends up being more effective in war and accomplishes far more such as reforming the Galactic Empire, persecuting the corrupt politicians of the conquered Free Planets Alliance, and defeating the Ancient Conspiracy behind the scenes. Eventually though, the Idealist side prevails in the long run since despite his accomplishments, the autocratic model Reinhard imposed would not last for very long. While he is reluctant to impose an actual democracy in his nation, Reinhard and his wife Hilda agree to conduct constitutional reforms to secure his Empire’s future after his passing.
    • Reinhard's aides are Oberstein and Kircheis and later Hildegard. Kircheis acts as a voice of reason to prevent Reinhard to avoid the same abuses as many officers and nobles of the Goldenbaum Dynasty. Oberstein does anything to solidify the rule of the new dynasty, such as allowing Westerland's destruction to destroy the nobles' hope to bring back the status quo, manipulating events that leads to Ruenthal's rebellion and eventual death, and a massive crackdown on former Free Planets Alliance worlds to solidify the rule of the Goldenlowe Dynasty.

    Live-Action TV 
  • The Call of Warr: Gravesite and Prince have this dynamic. Gravesite is The Captain of their squad and prefers non-violent solutions to conflict. He's a good guy with the respect of his team, but his slow and peaceful approach to interrogating Prisoner Sarah sends Prince, his Number Two, into a frustrated rage. As for Prince himself, he believes that Murder Is the Best Solution, in part because he doesn't want the prisoner to waste supplies and resources that he and his other teammates need. He's very practical and by-the-book, as well as a hotheaded Jerkass, but his goal is just to win the war and make sure he and his fellow soldiers survive it, making him the most pragmatic of all the soldiers.
  • Holby City: Chloe Godard and Jac Naylor have this dynamic. Despite both of them having gone through a Trauma Conga Line at least twice, and Chloe having an emotionally taxing Story Arc involving assault, Chloe still remains idealistic about helping people, even though she became a downplayed KnightInSourArmor and Jac was a Hate Sink who underwent Character Development to become less of a jerkass over time, it still applies. Chloe is the more idealistic of the two, and more experienced Jac is slightly more cynical and jaded, she started as a Jerkass but it became downplayed over time to the point of her becoming more sarcastic than so completely obnoxious no-one would interact with her. They did interact a fair bit during Seasons 21 to 23 of the show, until Chloe disappeared due to Chuck Cunningham Syndrome from September 2021 onwards.
  • Homicide: Life on the Street: Detective Frank Pembleton and his partner Detective Tim Bayliss have this dynamic. Bayliss is a sensitive, naive, and kind man who frequently reacts with outrage to the crime he investigates and empathizes with victims to an unhealthy degree. Meanwhile, Pembleton is ambitious and cold, focusing primarily on getting the job done no matter what, and is perfectly willing to bend the law to do so; he will destroy his own personal relationships and deliberately screw people over if it means solving a case. It is played with, as Pembleton is actually a moral absolutist with a black-and-white view on morality, which is what motivates a lot of his ruthlessness, whereas Bayliss is a lot better about acknowledging the moral grayness that motivates most of the crimes they investigate.
  • Kamen Rider Saber: After The Conspiracy unravels and the Sword of Logos outs itself as a villainous force, The Hero Touma has to contend with both them and the third Kamen Rider Calibur - his best friend and Anti-Villain / Pragmatic Hero Kento. Touma wants to defeat Master Logos with The Power of Friendship and has been able to Screw Destiny enough times to have a shot. Kento meanwhile has seen nothing but futures where everyone has died and thus resolves to turn on his own friends to seal away the magical swords they wield so the villain can't use their blades To Create a Playground for Evil. When Logos is foiled the first time but manages to become Kamen Rider Solomon, the clashing then evolves into another conundrum: Should Kento use his Evil Weapon to seal Master Logos away early in exchange for his own life or should he simply join his friends against Logos, knowing Touma may have to make his own sacrifice instead? Touma chooses the latter and interferes when Calibur casts the spell, expecting to Take a Third Option.
  • Star Trek: Starfleet has high moral policies, but one of its founding members, Vulcan, is a reformed Warlike people that still prefers an emphasis on pragmatism.
    • Throughout the franchise, Starfleet idealists come into conflict with Section 31, whose agents pragmatically believe that the ends justify the means — the ends being the safety of The Federation.
    • Star Trek: Voyager: In "Alliances", Janeway wants to stick to Starfleet principles, while Chakotay thinks it would be better to break them in emergency situations since they're lost in space. The two have many debates over this.
    • In the premiere of Star Trek: Discovery, Captain Georgiou and First Officer Commander Burnham clash over how to react to the sudden appearance of Klingons. Captain Georgiou is intent on following United Federation Policy that "Starfleet doesn't shoot first." Burnham thinks they should deviate and give a "Vulcan hello", attacking first to establish dominance in a language the Klingons can understand.
    • In season 2 of Star Trek: Discovery Captain Pike prepares to take the entire crew on an extremely dangerous rescue mission to recover a single cadet saying that the promise of Starfleet is that no one gets left behind. That is in contrast to the most famous Vulcan saying: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
    • In the alternate timeline season 1 finale of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, Enterprise encounters Romulans attacking Federation outposts in the Neutral Zone. Despite both Spock and Kirk advising him that attempts at diplomacy will be interpreted as weakness, Captain Pike sticks to Federation policy of attempting to negotiate a peaceful resolution. This leads an all out war with the Romulans who see the Federation as afraid to fight and ripe for conquering, leading to the deaths of tens of billions. In the prime timeline, where Kirk was Captain and followed Spock's advice to aggressively attack the Romulans in a show of strength, war is averted as the Romulans realize that the Federation is both capable of and willing to wage war in defense of their territory.
  • Squid Game: Protagonist Seong Gi-hun is a flawed Classical Anti-Hero with a gambling addiction, but he does believe in the goodness of humanity, is always nice to people, and immediately votes to end the titular Deadly Game; upon returning, he does everything he can to help others, make friends, and be compassionate, with only the occasional moment of weakness. His childhood friend Cho Sang-Woo, the Deuteragonist, is more ruthless- he immediately votes to continue the game, is willing to screw over and kill even his close allies and friends just to get ahead, and dismisses Gi-hun as a lucky man who can only maintain the moral high ground because other people make the hard decisions for him. This comes to a head in the final game, where they fight to the death to gain the grand prize- Gi-hun defeats Sang-woo but is unable to kill his dear friend and demands the game end with no winner, while Sang-woo stabs himself so Gi-hun can win the prize money and use it to help their respective mothers.
  • 30 Rock: In season six, Kenneth takes an interest in moving up the corporate ladder, and Jack decides to help him. However, Jack's methods are incredibly cutthroat and ruthless, which puts him at odds with Kenneth, who is fairly naive and values morality.
  • Three Kingdoms: As the series progresses, the formerly close relationship between Cao Cao and his advisor Xun Yu falls apart due to Cao adopting more Pragmatist stances (believing that consolidating power in his hands allows him to end the war and bring peace sooner) and Xun opposes him from an Idealist standpoint (believing that Cao concentrating so much power in himself makes him no better than the reviled Dong Zhuo). Xun later takes his own life when he believes he's lost Cao's friendship (and protection) for good, while Cao rails at him during his funeral for no longer trusting in his good intentions like he did when they were younger.
    • The series "Cao Cao the Hero" takes an unusual stance: Liu Bei is the Pragmatist to Cao Cao's Idealist! Liu Bei suggests to Cao Cao that to bring about peace, he needs power, and to gain the power he must be willing to cheat, lie and betray in order to get it. The historical Liu Bei was indeed known for repeatedly serving other warlords and abandoning them when necessary, and somehow despite this, he still managed to carve out enough territory to declare himself Emperor.
  • Westworld: Though the setting hinges more on Pragmatism due to the park and the outside world being a Crapsack World, there are still some characters who are idealists.
    • Dolores is initially programmed to be a Wide-Eyed Idealist until the constant abuses she experienced led her to become a Well-Intentioned Extremist who would do anything to free the Hosts even if it means using pragmatic ways. However after escaping the park and seeing the humans are treated, it turns out that she still has her idealism but she uses it in a more practical mindset. In the Season 3 finale, she admits to Maeve that despite the disarray and ugliness in the world, she believes there is still beauty in it.
    • Ford is a pragmatist who believes that humanity's evolution has ended and wants the Hosts to take over. To do that, he enforces the Hosts to suffer under constant loops of abuse, believing that the Hosts can rise up and rebel against their oppressors. Eventually, his plan worked and he entrusts Dolores to finish the job.
    • His partner Bernard is an Idealist who believes that Hosts and humans have a future together. This clashes with Ford's and Dolores' beliefs throughout the first two seasons. And despite the sufferings, he experienced such as his true identity as a Host, Bernard still believes that there's a chance for coexistence. In fact, Dolores respects him which is why she entrusts him the future of their species after she seemingly died in the Season 3 finale.

    Tabletop Games 
  • The more nuanced conflicts of White and Black in Magic: The Gathering. The former is driven by morality, the latter believes it to be a hindrance to personal happiness. Perhaps the most triumphant example is the Kamigawa Cycle, where the ever-practical Toshiro Umezawa is pitied against the Well-Intentioned Extremist Konda (and has banter with his equally idealistic daughter).

    Video Games 
  • Advance Wars: Days of Ruin: Doing what it takes to survive in the ruined world, Brenner's Wolves takes various approaches to maintain a sense of normalcy and safety within and outside their ranks. Will and Brenner act as the Idealists, hoping to appeal to peoples' better natures to work together. Lin, on the other hand, acts as the Pragmatist, anticipating humanity's more selfish instincts and counteracting against them accordingly. The Lazurian army ends up teaming up with Brenner's Wolves via Idealism whereas The Beast's bandits, the New Rubinelle Army, and Caulder's IDS forces must be put to the fire via Pragmatic violence.
  • Dynasty Warriors: In some of the games in the series, Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong act as the Pragmatists to Liu Bei's Idealist. They believe in Liu Bei's dream of restoring the Han but are willing to go to great lengths to achieve it. Liu Bei, however, has a strong belief in "honour" and has lines he's not willing to cross (most notably not wanting to wage war on his kinsman Liu Zhang in order to seize his territory). In at least one game it's implied Pang Tong pulls a Suicide by Cop in order to force Liu Bei into action against Liu Zhang.
    • In earlier parts of the story when they're still working together, Cao Cao is the Pragmatist to Liu Bei's Idealist. Cao Cao believes that the reason the Han failed is that it was weak, therefore a strong central power is necessary to properly restore peace to the land... and Cao Cao is willing to do whatever it takes to bring back peace. Liu Bei, on the other hand, insists that a proper restoration of the Han will be enough to bring back peace and so advocates for minimal force where possible. Cao sometimes agrees with him... if only because it's the logical and pragmatic thing to do.
  • This is one of the points of contention in the support chain of Robin and Virion in Fire Emblem: Awakening. Virion is able to beat Robin (the army's tactician) at a chess-like game without fail. When Robin points out that Virion should be the leader because of this, Virion points out that the difference is more because of their playstyles. Virion is much more pragmatic, and can only win at great cost. If he were to run a real army like this, he would be deposed simply because war is Not a Game; thus the army needs someone who values the lives of its members and is adverse to losing anyone.
  • Fire Emblem Fates has this appear somewhat - while Corrin's siblings (Sans Sakura and Elise who are always idealistic) will always become more idealistic depending on the route, Nohr and Hoshido show more pragmatic sides, and Corrin is often questioned by others for their idealism, particularly on Conquest.
  • Genshin Impact: Played with. Tartaglia is noted for being the odd one out among his fellow Fatui Harbingers as the rest are fully content to put innocent lives at risk and manipulate things behind the scenes to serve their interests, while he loves confronting people head-on without tricks and, is reluctant to endanger all of Liyue. However, although Tartaglia is against plotting and scheming, he actually has fewer inhibitions than the other Harbingers as he will fight anyone any time, and is entirely willing to commit atrocities for the thrill of it.
  • Introduced in the Smile of Dreamer Event in Hatsune Miku: Colorful Stage!: Emu wants to preserve the happiness and memories of the park, but her brothers are more concerned about the financial troubles of the park and want to rebrand all of it, taking its original purpose and memories away with it.
  • Depending on player choices, the player-character in Knights of the Old Republic and its sequel will serve as one or the other, for both Light Side and Dark Side, and will have counterparts urging them to be more idealistic/more pragmatic.
    • In KOTOR 1, the game presents Light Side choices as being more idealistic and Dark Side choices as being more pragmatic for the most part. Typically, when presented with a problem, you will have Bastila, Jolee, or Carth urging the player to take more idealistic actions, and on the flip side, Canderous or HK-47 urging the player to be more pragmatic.
    • In KOTOR 2, pragmatism and idealism are firmly separated from being associated with the Dark Side and Light Side respectively, and could be considered something of their own spectrum in this game, considering Kreia spends the majority of the game trying to convince the Exile to be pragmatic with the Force, taking neither a pure Light Side or Dark Side approach.
  • Mass Effect lets Commander Shepard choose between the two options with the Paragon vs Renegade system. Paragon choices and actions are idealistic- appealing to someone's better nature and using dipomacy. Renegade choices are pragmatic- letting a few hostages die to stop a terrorist from escaping, executing criminals to insure they can't make plea bargains to escape justice, and threatening people to get them to do what you want. In the first game, every time you faced a major decision you'd always have one squad member who would argue the paragon choice and one who'd argue the renegade choice. Who was who varied based on squad composition, with the Paragon-Renegade scale being Kaidan, Liara, Tali, Garrus, Ashley, Wrex. So if Wrex was in the squad he'd always argue for the pragmatic choice while the other squad member argued for the idealist choice, while Tali would argue for the idealist choice if she were teamed with Garrus or Ashley but the pragmatic choice if teamed with Liara or Kaidan.
  • Played with in Star Wars: The Old Republic:
    • While the game does go back to the light side being more idealistic whereas dark side is often more pragmatic, many of the sides are shown with more nuance than in the first game. On occasion, the player may be presented with two light side or dark side choices (out of three), sometimes with no option being idealistic or pragmatic. There's plenty on both sides, but light sided Imperial players tend to veer more towards Idealism whereas Dark Sided Republic players tend to veer more towards pragmatism. Sometimes? The "Light" side choice is Stupid Good, the "Dark" side choice is Stupid Evil, and both sides can become Lawful Stupid.
    • On a few occasions? The pragmatic/idealistic roles are switched, or simply not having an idealistic vs. pragmatist viewpoint at all. Very early in the story, Sith Warriors will get praised for Recruiting the Criminal rather than executing them because even though he broke your laws, idealism of enforcing it will actually work against you since this is a potential asset. Bounty Hunters aren't written off as being idealistic for bringing their targets in alive, oftentimes they are praised for doing this because they let their employer decide. A smuggler likewise can just be played as intentionally taking things that may get them money, but drawing the line at certain things.
  • The New Order Last Days Of Europe:
    • Valery Sablin, who rules Buryatia split from Yagoda's Irkutsk. While Sablin wants to bring back what he sees as the original values of October Revolution, Yagoda is much more pragmatic, to the point of later allowing private companies to opreate in Special Economic Zones.
    • Similarly, Mikhail Matkovsky separated from Konstantin Rodzaevsky because of the latter's extremist leanings.
  • In Persona's SEBEC route, Kei's cold-blooded pragmatism often comes into conflict with Mark's hot-blooded idealism, and the party turns to you to make the hard calls.
  • Persona 5 Royal: An odd variation. Maruki is a kind and compassionate therapist, but after acquiring godlike power, he decides to make everyone happy by any means necessary. This includes rewriting people's personalities to fit his utopia, even against their will. The Phantom Thieves oppose Maruki, as despite him erasing all their suffering, they realize his methods are immoral and people should be free to choose their own lives.
  • In Phantasy Star Online 2, Stratos, the Hero class instructor, is an Idealist, creating the Hero class to act as a Hope Bringer and styling it after a Knight in Shining Armor. She believes in facing her enemies head-on and on even ground, even when she's fighting Falspawn. By contrast, her Childhood Friend Kyokuya is the Pragmatist. He believes in winning a fight by any means necessary, even if it means backstabbing them and weakening them to the point of helplessness. To this end, he created the Phantom class as a means of teaching others that they shouldn't be afraid of getting their hands dirty when fighting for peace.
  • This factors into the backstory of Pokémon Black and White, with the Heroes of Truth and Ideals. The two— supposedly the founders of the Unova region— once shared a powerful dragon Pokémon, but disagreed on whether to pursue absolute morals or pragmatic ideals. As a result of their schism, the dragon itself was split in half, with Reshiram going to the pragmatist and Zekrom going with the idealist. Which one the main character ends up siding with depends on which version they play.
  • Tales of Vesperia even manages to fit this conflict into its plot. Both Yuri and Flynn recognise the Empire as corrupt, but their ideas on how to fix the problems that arise from such things causes conflict between characters. Flynn represents the idealistic side of the conflict (seeking to work within the system to reform the empire) while Yuri is the more pragmatic side of things. Yuri in particular, upon seeing that Ragou got off fairly light for all the horrible things he did, decides to just take justice into his own hands to end it. When he sees Cumore doing similar things, decides to also punish Cumore simply because he feels that he can't trust the system. The characters of course point out that he wasn't justified in his actions even though he had every reason to be angry, while Flynn inists that he is able to do it, even when he himself has to follow orders and do things he doesn't like, such as having to arrest Yuri.
    • A similar dualism is brought up in Tales of Zestiria. Sorey is a very pure-hearted hero, but unfortunately the world isn't as black and white. Rose agrees to offer the more pragmatic side of things, and is thus willying to dirty her hands.
  • Venus Blood:
    • The later games give Reign/Conquest choices, with the former collaborating with the protagonists' enemies and the latter subjugating them. There is also a Friendship/Corruption mechanic with the former bonding with targeted girls and the latter enslaving them into powerful and loyal allies.
    • Venus Blood -Frontier- has Loki and his assistant Fena doing what it takes to win. The goddesses of Yggdrasil are Tyrca, who is greatly concerned for her soldiers' well-being; Rigret, who overall hates fighting; Thor, who prefers a fair and even fight; and Freya, who puts diplomacy first. Chief Goddess Odin is somewhere off this chart.

    Visual Novels 
  • Sunrider:
    • The commander Shields can go either route depending on the choices he makes. One example is whether to rescue diplomats from PACT ships or allow them to be killed to further provoke the Solar Alliance. The former becomes more rewarding in this case as the Liberation Day expansion gives a bonus mission to escort hundreds of children who were brought with the diplomats back to their home planet for extra cash.
    • The crew for the Sunrider is also very divided. Asaga, Chigara, and Kryska are on the Idealist side. Asaga favors what is right with her sense of justice. Chigara is reluctant to kill, keeping Asaga's Blood Knight tendencies in check, and prefers using technology to help people. Kryska sees the Solar Alliance as a fair and just nation that wishes to liberate the Neutral Rim of PACT and pirate attacks. She even helps the Sunrider stop the Alliance military from destroying Cera and turns herself in to expose their abuses, believing the Alliance people would see no justification for such acts. Ava, Icari, and Sola are on the Pragmatist side. While Ava can comply with Kayto's Idealist choices, she does everything by the book and doesn't mind sharing how the pragmatic side of things work. Icari is a mercenary who has a complete distrust of authority and doesn't mind getting her hands dirty. Sola is a Shell-Shocked Veteran who shoots first and asks questions later on the battlefield. Claude has no preference for either side. However, she ends up on the Pragmatist side as she's trying to prevent a universe-breaking paradox from occurring.
    • Veniczar A. Fontana of PACT is the Idealist who treats political prisoners with the utmost respect, does not sacrifice lives pointlessly, and is concerned about PACT's state of affairs, let alone wishing to reform it after he overthrows the Prototypes. Admiral Grey is a Pragmatist who is willing to cover up war crimes to uphold the military's reputation and threaten to destroy a planet to stop PACT from winning a battle. It is fitting that his command fleet is titled Machiavelli Actual. On the other hand, a peace conference between the two could place them on either side. Gray wishes for the Solar Alliance to have complete control over the Neutral Rim's reconstruction efforts to prevent a humanitarian disaster. Fontana wants to keep the Alliance out, even if such a disaster occurs, to keep the Neutral Rim completely independent and prevent either nation from gaining too much power.
  • Forms the basis of a critical Sadistic Choice in Your Turn to Die: the idealist choice is killing a young man on his request so that the group will not stoop to the low of murdering a child. The pragmatic choice is to kill a little girl on her request so that said young man can use his expertise to sabotage the Deadly Game. The resulting consequences heavily push you towards the idealist's point of view.

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