Headscratchers / The Flash 2014 Season 5

New entries on the bottom. Spoilers, naturally.

The Flash's future enemies

• How come the Flash is a longtime enemy of people very far in the future? Abra Kadabra's from the 64th century, and I forget if we ever got a date for Reverse-Flash's future but he did say to Cisco, "To me, you've been dead for centuries." If it was just the matter of a veteran hero's enemies attacking him in his youth, they'd only be from a few decades in the future, not such an incredibly long time. Is Flash immortal, does a time travel incident strand him permanently in the future, what?
  • Actually yes, in the comics, Barry and Iris live in the 30th century for a period of time. Long enough in fact for their grandson, Bart Allen be born.
  • Its well-established in the comics that the Flash time-travels to future eras and has adventures there. In fact, that was how he first encountered Eobard Thawne in the comics (and for all we know, that holds true in the show's continuity as well, since we still haven't seen the first meeting from Thawne's POV). So its entirely possible that at some point in the future, Barry starts semi-regularly adventuring in the future and that leads to him making some enemies from those eras. Alternatively, some of these foes from the future could time-travel to the 21st century at a point later relative to where Barry is now, which is where they first encountered him.

The Flash's Disappearance

• So Nora confirmed that Barry did disappear in the Red Sky Crisis in 2024. But we know he made a message in 2056 to send to Rip Hunter. So doesn't that mean he always came back? Or was just part of a timelline change from Flashpoint after Iris originally died?
  • As of now, we simply don't know. It's worth noting that the message Rip had was from 2056, and Nora appears to be from 2049...so for all we know, Barry is destined to return later but Nora doesn't know it yet. And yes, of course, the timeline changing from Flashpoint could have made a difference - though even in that timeline, Barry does disappear during the Crisis.

Killer Frost's Origin Has Plot Holes

• So it's been confirmed at this point that Killer Frost has been a part of Caitlin since childhood due to her father's experimental cryogenic therapy. Killer Frost appears whenever Caitlin is scared or angry. Caitlin has experienced the trauma of losing Ronnie twice as well as being held captive for weeks by Zoom, the latter which gave her PTSD. She was whammied by Rainbow Raider in "Rogue Air" in which she lashed out at Cisco for Ronnie's death in a state of anger. All of these experiences put her in a heightened emotional state in which she was likely to have experienced anxiety and anger, but Killer Frost just happens to manifest within her again in Season 3?
  • While it may be the lazy answer to these questions, put quite simply, all your examples of Caitlin having gone through major emotional experiences without Killer Frost coming out... Happened prior to Flashpoint. Before Flashpoint, there were absolutely 0 signs of Earth 1 Caitlin having Killer Frost inside her, while everytime we've seen it manifest was afterward. We don't know the details of how Flashpoint changed these events in seasons 1 and 2, if she ever went through any of the same experiences (sans Ronnie's death). Unfortunately, we just can't take any events before Flashpoint into account when judging these sorts of things.
  • Are you kidding me? They retconned her origins so that Flashpoint wasn't the cause of Killer Frost, because poeple complained that it didn't explain why the Particle Accelerator post-Flashpoint would give her a Superpowered Evil Side. So we traded an origin story with a debatable plothole for one with several plot holes.
  • Didn't her dad also try to suppress her powers once he realized what he had done to her? So maybe it just took all that time for that to finally wear off, at which point Killer Frost was finally able to come out when Caitlin is stressed. Metas from other sources often have delays between the source of their powers and actually using them.

What is The Nature of Cicada's Dagger?

• In episode 5x03 Nora said that no heroes, including Supergirl, the Justice League, the Legends, Team Flash, and Green Arrow, could take Cicada down in her timeline. Ralph suggested it was because of his dagger nullifying their ablities. The 100th episode showed his dagger can only nullify the powers of metas who got their powers from the particle accelerator, excluding Killer Frost. Heroes like Supergirl and Citizen Steel didn't get the powers from a Dark Matter wave, so how is it that they couldn't take Cicada down?
  • He's still extremely dangerous even discounting his trump card of being able to cancel powers. Plus the Cicada that Nora was talking about was a homegrown terrorist who might have had plenty of other tricks up his sleeve to handle enemies.

Zoom's Fate in the 100th Episode

• So after Barry and Nora accidentally encountered Zoom, the latter chased the former two through the wormhole only to be caught be a time wraith. Shouldn't that theoretically mean Zoom was killed by the wraiths earlier tha the Season 2 finale? or did it really knock him back to his time? If the latter, why not stop him then knowing that later events would lead to Barry creating Flashpoint?
  • It could've been a time remnant of Zoom. Or the Time Wraith simply wiped his memory before sending him back.

Thawne Knowing About Savitar

• Barry and Nora went back to the events of episode 2x17, and Thawne knew about Savitar's exploits. Savitar was a product of the post-Flashpoint timeline. Thawne is from a pre-Flashpoint timeline, as he knew Nora as Dawn and only realized her name cahnged as a result of his meddling with the timeline. So how would not know that but know everything about Savitar?
  • Savitar is pretty weird even by the standard of this show's time travel villains. He wasn't a product of the post-Flashpoint timeline, he used Flashpoint to escape his cage. Presumably Savitar has always existed due to various Stable Time Loops, and even though he is dead and will never be born he's sort of still alive, at least enough for people to remember him.
  • Are you kidding me?! Savitar was a product of creating and deleting the Flashpoint timeline. Killing Iris was just prove of that since she lived long enough to write the future article in the pre-Flashpoint timeline. And Savitar being a time remnant of Barry should've remembered Flashpoint even before being imprisoned.
  • Pr Thawne knew Savitar like he knew Pr De Voe, Cicada and Dawn West-Allen ... He knew the alternate version of them. Cicada was 'the one who went away', Thawne has no idea that the Cicada Team Flash is fighting has nothing to do with the one he knew (more or less like Sherloque). So it is possible that in the Original's Barry timeline there was another Savitar/Time Remnant that happened in 2021 or 2022 instead of 2017.
  • Savitar apparently always existed to some degree thanks to the Speed Force. Jay spoke of him as a Speed Force legend, despite being outside of Earth-1 and therefore completely unaffected by the changing timelines. If that doesn't help answer the question, well, the time travel rules in the Arrowverse have never made sense to begin with, you just gotta go with it.
  • Its entirely possible that in the timeline Thawne comes from, something else happened to cause Barry to create a time remnant who turns rogue and becomes Savitar. Remember, Savitar existed before the creation of Flashpoint. Yes, the Stable Time Loop which creates him, namely Iris' death at his hands, only seems to be established after Flashpoint. And Savitar does remember his origins that way. But Savitar's own memories were constantly being altered due to the changes he was making in 2017. For all we know, he could have had a totally different origin pre-Flashpoint, which was replaced by the new origin involving Iris' murder post-Flashpoint.

Iris is the founder of the Central City Citizen?

• Okay so Word of God confirmed this season that Iris was going to be the founder of the Central City Citizen, the newspaper outlet that reported on the Flash disappeared in the 2024 Crisis (circa 2021 Pre-Flaslpoint, circa 2019 Post-Flashpoint). If that's the case, how did the newspaper still exist in the alternate timeline where Savitar killed her, let alone have the piece being written by Julie Greer? It feels like a testament to the fact that Iris' journalism career was an afterthought on the show, especially during Kreisberg's tenor.
  • Well, in "Memorabilia" we see Iris founding the newspaper and we learn that 'Central City Citizen' was the only name available. So presumably, in the 'Savitar Kills Iris' timeline, Julie Greer or someone else is the one to found a newspaper by that name, which features that article.

Why didn't Grace just...

• ...go back in time to the point where she could save her parents from their deaths?
  • There are plenty of good reasons not to make major changes to your own timeline, as shown with Flashpoint. Grace's case is complicated by the fact that she's completely crazy, and perfectly willing to let humans die in order to kill more metahumans. So maybe she considered their deaths necessary for her crusade to start.
  • Her being crazy would be my top reason as to why she just wouldn't give a crap about starting her own Flashpoint. But yeah, the second point could be an explanation.

The parental feelings Barry and Iris have towards Nora

• Is it even natural? They act like they raised her and know her so well, it's even stranger considering they're basically the same age.
  • It's possible to have parental instincts towards someone your own age, hence the Team Mom and Team Dad tropes. Nora was also acting very vulnerably and looking to them for help when they first met her, which would arguably have triggered their Chronic Hero Syndrome and made them want to look after her. Also, it does take a bit of bonding before they begin to act comfortably towards her (remember the awkward Iris-Nora coffee scene from the start of the season?).

White lightning

• In Godspeed, Nora says that there's never been a speedster with white lightning before. Except Savitar had white lightning when wearing his armor, and the armor is right there in the Flash Museum (well, a replica, the original one disintegrated after Savitar's death).
  • Savitar's may be seen as very, very, very bright blue in-universe. Or it's another thing the Flash museum straight up got wrong.
  • Maybe Savitar got Ret Goned once Iris was never killed, so that now he will never have existed at all?

How would Iris have been in the right to dampen Nora's Powers?

• Maybe it makes sense for Nora as a kid to not risk her life with her powers, but it's entirely different as an adult. Cops and Firefighters risk their lives everyday with what they do and their parents don't stop them.
  • It wasn't ever really considered right for Iris to do so, more that she had understandable reasons for doing so. She lost the love of her life (and possibly her brother) during the Red Skies Crisis, so it makes sense that she wouldn't want to lose her daughter the same way.
    • Present!Iris flat out says her future self must have had a good reason, Barry and Cecille both take her side, and the subplot ends with Nora forgiving Iris. That's a lot of characters defending what's supposed to be a morally gray decision.
• Nora mentions she's always been a little excessive. It could have been, simply, as Barry disappeared and all the speedsters were gone, no one could have helped Nora. What if she ran into traffic after getting in a fight with Iris, or had someone killed because she stopped speeding at the wrong moment?
  • Iris isn't necessarily right in this. She (as mentioned just below) can be selfish at times, and Barry and Cecille might have just gone along with her.

How can Iris be so selfish?

• "Going into the speed force and leaving me?" Has she seriously forgotten that Barry had no choice in the matter? It was either go in there or stay and let the world get destroyed.
  • She's angry at Barry and not thinking clearly during their argument. Simple as that.
  • Iris' emotions getting in the way of logical thinking has been a pretty consistent character trait (that, and when forced to confront logic and reason, straight-out denial).

Barry always wanted a family?

• That seemed completely outta nowhere, Barry has never before shown any signs of wanting to have kids, and in the Season 4 finale, he seemed quite unnerved at the thought of Iris wanting to have a baby.
  • I think that had more to do with him not wanting to have kids right now.

Sensing other speedsters in the speedforce?

• Since when did Barry learn to sense other speedsters in the speedforce? Is there something I'm missing or forgetting? Was it ever touched upon before he warned Nora against traveling back in time?
  • I'm guessing Barry made it up so Nora would think he meant it and wouldn't travel back

Why does it matter how Sherloque revealed Nora's secret?

• The truth had to come out one way or another.
  • Because at that point, Nora was actually mustering up the courage to tell them herself (which Sherloque clearly realized), and not only stole the spotlight to make it look like the only reason Nora was going to tell them was because she had no choice, but also painted it in pretty much the worst possible interpretation.
  • I don't think interpretation matters when you're working with such a monster. Keeping a secret like that is wrong regardless.
  • There was still the matter that she was clearly going to tell them herself, and Sherloque knew that. But instead of letting her do it herself, or offering support or any kind of help, he takes that chance away from her to satiate his own ego.
  • When detectives investigate criminals and expose them is it a matter of ego? What's the difference?
  • The difference is that he never told anyone about his suspicions before now. He knew Nora was lying for months, yet never actually said anything about his suspicions to anyone else.
  • If he did, they wouldn't have believed him, and also Iris sure did not take it well when she saw he was investigating her.
  • Because he never said why he was investigating her, never told them that he suspected she was working with someone else, nothing.
  • Also, interpretation does matter. What Sherloque said implied that Nora was maliciously working with Thawne to "make puppets of all of [team Flash]", while Nora probably would have said that Thawne would help stop the Flash from dying, that he wanted Nora to help meet the Flash, that he was repentant. Which one do you think would be more understandable to Nora's family?
  • And I do think the context of when Iris found Sherloque investigating Nora matters- were she to find out about the investigation in, say, two episodes time, she would be possibly more understanding. But she found Sherloque investigating Nora when she had her back broken, couldn't move, was in a bad emotional space for those two reasons and thought she would never be able to run again. Obviously, she'd be pretty pissed off.

Wasn't Barry being a hypocrite?

• He was criticizing Nora for being mad at Iris for something she didn't yet do. But back in Season 2 he was showing extreme hatred for Thawne, nearly beating him to death when that was a version of him that hadn't yet killed his mother.
  • 1. Character Development 2. The situations aren't that comparable. When Thawne reappeared in Season 2, he still murdered several people with no remorse and while he hadn't killed Barry's mother yet, he was clearly looking forward to doing so in the future. In contrast, Iris was clearly horrified upon hearing that she would end up doing what she did.
  • But Barry said theres no way Iris could change so drastically in the future without him around, even though he once met a future version of himself that abandoned his friends over Iris' death.
  • Because Iris had already been 'abandoned' by Barry (the speedforce prison and jail), and thus, he had tangible proof that if Iris could hold it together for her friends, she could almost certainly do it for her child.
  • Also, no matter how bad you feel Iris' actions were, they're really not comparable to murdering an innocent woman out of spite.

Why, in the future, did they apparently need Cicada's dagger to keep Thawne in check?

• The Girl With The Red Lightning finally reveals Thawne's true intentions for encouraging Nora to help stop Cicada in the present; Cicada's dagger is what was used to depower Thawne while he was in prison, and Thawne thus wants to see it destroyed. But dampeners that can render a metahuman powerless already exist in the present day, and will presumably only be further developped in the future. Couldn't they just use one of those to keep Thawne in line?
  • Possibly, but as the pilot of Season Four showed, a speedster with enough power can break through the usual cell for metahumans.
  • Well there's no reason to think that a loss of power to the prison wouldn't give him a opportunity to escape, kinda of like how Grodd escaped from ARGUS after the Enlightenment. And knowing how dangerous Thawne is, the guards would want to have a fail safe in such an event.
  • Sure, as a backup the dagger is a great idea. The problem is that the dagger was apparently the only thing they were using. It would make more sense if Thawne's cell had a dampener, and he was wearing meta-dampening cuffs, and they had the dagger strapped to him. Then, they could have a scene (maybe right before he kills the guards) where he explains how he disabled every other failsafe, and the dagger was the last one. And to be fair what we were shown doesn't explicitly contradict that there were other power-dampeners that he disabled (not all such things are obvious), but the fact that we weren't shown anything else does imply very strongly that there weren't any.

Why Didn't Orlin Dwyer Get Restored To Life in Legacy?

• Team Flash is able to beat Cicada II in Legacy by convincing a young Grace Gibbons to take the metahuman cure. Without her powers, the crazy future version of Grace Gibbons determined to kill all metahumans can never exist. Yet Orlin Dwyer, who was killed by Cicada II, doesn't suddenly reappear even though, logically, he should still be alive if Cicada II never existed
  • It's the same reason that everything Thawne or Savitar or Nora did remained intact even after they'd been erased from existence: time travel rules in the Arrowverse work however the writers want them to work.

Nora's sacrifice makes zero sense

• It's already been established that timeline changes don't propagate to other Earths. They had Cisco right there! He could've easily sent her to Earth 2 or any other Earth to wait out the timeline changes or even permanently. But no, they had to conveniently forget this little fact. It's so stupid when Rule of Drama forces characters to suddenly pick up the Idiot Ball.
  • There's a difference between timeline changes and being erased from existence like that. The latter certainly doesn't seem like it's that easy to beat, otherwise Savitar could've just hopped to a new Earth to escape that. Even if it could delay the erasing effect, the Speed Force would probably end up sending a Time Wraith or Black Flash after her to correct that.
    • Still, seems odd that no one even brought it up as a possibility, so it can be rejected.

Nora's reason for going back to 2018

• She stated that she was there to stop Barry from disappearing in 2024. But when it seemed like Cicada was about to be defeated and before future Grace showed up, she made it clear that she was going back to her time as it said in her diary that there was no reason for her to stay anymore. It's confusing.
  • Mainly because Thawne led her to believe that beating Cicada and destroying his dagger would be the key to saving Barry from that fate.

Team Flash getting the drop on Thawne did not make much sense

• I don't think strategy matters when you're up against a guy who can literally kill you in a heartbeat. Especially when he's supposed to be smarter than all of them.
  • After 3 years dealing with evil speedsters and seeing how the Flash could be beaten by non-speedster enemies, you may learn some tricks useful against a speedster that literally hadn't used his powers for years and may be a little rusty.
  • Also, Thawne ALWAYS toys with Team Flash before attacking. They've gotten used to that and thus, attacked first.
  • Thawne's problem here is the same one Barry always has—speedsters are practically unstoppable in motion, but before they go into Bullet Time, they're as vulnerable as the next bloke.

Cisco taking the metacure makes no sense.

• So why is Cisco taking the metahuman cure at the end of the season? Cisco has cognitive powers that let him see into the future, in other places around the world, and into other timelines and parallel worlds, let him travel from anywhere in the world to anywhere else instantly and to other parallel worlds, and fire powerful blasts from his hands. All of which Cisco can perfectly control without causing any harm to himself or anyone else around him. Last, Cisco's girlfriend is perfectly fine with Cisco having these abilities and even seems like she likes that he has them. Cisco could just not use his powers again if he didn't want to be Vibe anymore and spend his time actually inventing things if he wanted to be known for something else. In fact, every other member of Team Flash that has powers has better reason to want them gone, even tiny ones, than Cisco does. It smacks of Cursed with Awesome without the cursed part.

How do Barry and Iris remember Nora?

• If she's been erased from existence, shouldn't she be erased from their memories as well?
  • The same way Team Flash remember Savitar after he was erased from existence: time travel rules have never been consistent.

Thawne & the Negative Speed Force

• So it's now established that the Negative Speed Force is suppose to make the user immune to timeline changes. It explains why Thawne keeps returning and why he had no problem trying to kill Barry as a child but ultimately killing Nora Allen. But he lost his speed presumably because if Barry never became the Flash, Thawne was never inspired to become the Reverse Flash. So how was he still affected by that timeline change? And shouldn't such an immunity prevented him from fading out of existence after Eddie's suicide in the first place?
  • As noted above, time travel in the Arrowverse works however the writers want to. It makes Steven Moffat look downright straightforward by comparison.

Why did Barry not disagree with preventing his disappearance?

• Surely Nora coming back from the future to keep him from disappearing is not that different from saving his mom and creating Flashpoint. How could that possibly not come to anybody's mind that what Nora was trying to do could wind up causing Flashpoint 2.0?

CCPD's Baffling Negligence

• How in the name of sanity did CCPD not hire another CSI after Barry lost the job, or outsource any of the cases? Crime scene investigation is an utterly vital part of police work and the justice system. It'd be like saying that no one could call the police for a couple of months because they fired the one guy who answers 911 calls. Even if they somehow just didn't get around to hiring someone due to gross negligence, the cases wouldn't pile up; they'd be outsourced to other precincts.
  • Could be that they arranged for someone from another precinct to do the CSI and as the main characters wouldn't be around the crime scenes as employees, so therefore, we didn't see it happening.

"Can I get a Zoom, to go?"

• Does no one at Jitters have the slightest ethical issue with naming one of their drinks after an evil mass murderer? It'd be like going into Starbucks and ordering a 'decaf bin Laden'. Even worse: Zoom murdered several police officers at Jitters. Right in the same spot where people are ordering his drink.
  • On paper? It's a callback to the villain without bringing him into the show again. In universe? Maybe after the Flash coffees became popular, Jitters staff came up with new brandings after the public figures of Central City (Kid Flash, Zoom, Cicada, X Spresso etc.).