Follow TV Tropes


Headscratchers / The Dark Knight

Go To

These headscratchers are now entirely grouped in folders in approximately chronological order of asking. Please put subsequent headscratchers at the bottom of the page, and try to avoid asking questions already asked before.

    open/close all folders 

     Batpod Design Flaws 
  • The Batpod is cool and all, but why is the escape pod for the two-seater Tumbler a single seat motorcycle?
    • Perhaps during the six month interval between this and Begins, he realizes that a) he's never had to use the spare seat for passengers since Rachel got hit by the fear gas and b) he could do with an emergency exit if the Tumbler should suffer catastrophic failure. So he implements it into the frame of a new Tumbler prototype with Lucius' help.
    • If the Batpod was built into the original Tumbler (which is the same one seen in both films), Bruce and Lucius reasoned that the type of missions where you expose the vehicle to risk of catastrophic failure are not those where you bring passengers, for safety protocol. Therefore, if you need to eject, you're only going to be carrying yourself inside anyway and no need for a passenger. The only time the Tumbler ever had a passenger were both in Batman Begins: when Bruce was test-driving it with Fox, and later during the police chase when he was rushing Rachel back to the Batcave.
    • Maybe there are two Batpods, one for each seat. But they only deploy when needed. We only saw one Batpod because there was only one passenger at the time.
    • But it would be a bit much to presume a civilian like Rachel would be capable of driving a Batpod as an "escape pod", even if she wasn't currently suffering the effects of the fear toxin.

  • Okay, so the Batpod is cool as hell. But that cape kept flapping mere inches above the rear wheel and waiting for something messy to happen. Seriously, couldn't he tuck it in or something?
    • One of the special features on the DVD features development of the Batpod, and they had actually thought of this danger. Originally they decided that the memory technology in the cape would allow it to fold up into a backpack shape so it would be out of the way. When they tested the pod using the costume, however, the cape never got snagged in anything, so they abandoned the pack idea—though it did fold up for Lau's extraction setpiece.

  • During the chase sequence, the 'Pod bursts out of an alley, and the lights mounted with the guns seem to be spinning around the long axis of the bike. Is that what's going on, or is it an optical illusion?
    • It's not an illusion. The wheels can actually pivot 360 degrees around the long axis of the Batpod. You can see it again when Batman drives it up the side of a wall and then the 'Pod twists completely around to keep him upright. Presumably it's designed that way so a sideways skid doesn't automatically lead to a wipe out.'
      • In order to have a stable sideways roll, shouldn't the wheels have a perfectly-circular roll-cage around them? If not (which they don't), the roll would be incredibly unstable: bumpy at best, and violent at worst.

  • How is the Batpod assembled? It shoots right out of the left side of the tumbler, but uses both front tires. Either the tumbler has an extra wheel just for the batpod, or it's a bloody Transformer.
    • Again, the "special features" on the second disc cover this. The driver's-side wheel pops out first, followed by the passenger's-side wheel, which fixes itself onto the back of the 'Pod. (However, it all happens so fast that it's nearly unnoticeable without freeze-framing.) The guns are presumably concealed under all that cowling...remember, the Tumbler was made for military purposes. A) it has to have an 'eject' function in case of IEDs, and B) that eject function has to be at least somewhat lightly armed.

     Rachel: For her Protection? 
  • Don't know if this has been asked yet, but Rachel didn't want to be with Bruce Wayne because being Batman is like having a giant bullseye on his back, yet when the mafia tries to kill Harvey she doesn't cares. Hypocrite anyone?
    • That's not at all why Rachel didn't want to be with Bruce Wayne. She says exactly why she doesn't want to be with Bruce: Because she sees that Batman is more important to Bruce than she is. She'd always be second fiddle to his obsession with fighting crime.
      • But Harvey is guilty of the exact same thing.
      • That isn't remotely true. Harvey shows through the whole film that Rachel is his number one priority.
      • Also, even if Harvey is more committed to crime fighting than Rachel (which, as mentioned above, is debatable), he's not putting on a bat suit and risking his life by going out to beat up criminals to do so, which is probably the more significant part of Rachel's rejection of Bruce. Clearly the whole Batman stuff is a pretty big deal breaker for Rachel.
    • Rachel’s reaction was hypocritical, but in a human way and not really villainous. She supported Batman’s campaign as long as he was doing good for Gotham, but when the Joker arrived she thought it’d gone too far. She put up with it as long as she could, but she couldn’t put up with it forever. The human spirit, no matter how great it can be, is still only human. She did ask for his forgiveness for leaving him though, so she respected him even if she didn’t agree with him.

    Harvey's Suit 
  • When Dent is in the disused factory near the end with Gordon's family, how did he get his burnt suit back? (he is clearly wearing it in that scene) When he was taken into hospital it would have been cut off him and thrown away.
    • Who said it was the same suit? Perhaps he opted to burn a new one.
      • The District Attorney has enough pull to make emergency room technicians disregard standard procedure? If he refuses any sort of treatment to keep his face intact, maybe he refused their attempts to remove the suit.
      • And on top of that, if there was any reason to suspect that the clothes might be evidence in a crime (as in this case), most E Rs know to keep them until law enforcement can collect them. It's then not an unreasonable stretch that Dent used connections to steal them from evidence.
      • They did cut off his suit. He probably made a new one.
      • They had already taken off the suit by the time he had regained consciousness. He wouldn't have been able to resist them removing the suit like he did with the skin grafts, so by the time he would have made a fuss about it, it would have been long gone.
    • He actually had the burned suit in every scene after the hospital, not just at the burned out building.
    • Simpler explanation: the suit jacket was removed during/shortly after Dent getting burned. He was conscious the entire time and he/Batman may have removed it since it was, you know, on fire..

    Batman is Persecuted 
  • Why is everyone persecuting Batman? He saved the entire city in Batman Begins! Do all the citizens want to die at the hands of some psychotic mass murderer? Batman is the only reason they haven't... yet.
    • At the beginning of TDK, they aren't persecuting him; hell he's got imitators claiming he's an inspiration for justice. It isn't until people start getting killed because of his perceived selfishness that they start to raise complaints.
      • Yeah, but technically the police were looking to arrest Batman, even at the beginning of Dark Knight. He hasn't gotten any medals for saving the city.
      • Vigilantism is illegal and so the cops are forced to search for him. Don't forget that the city is still incredibly corrupt.
      • They were looking really hard to arrest Batman. Their top suspects included Abraham Lincoln and Bigfoot, and Gordon was openly operating the Bat-Signal.
      • The idea is that official policy is to arrest Batman because he is an illegal vigilante, a line which would probably be declared to placate moralizers and bureaucrats.
      • The mob still has considerable influence in Gotham at this point, so it's not hard to imagine that they're pushing the commissioner to catch the guy who's beating them up all the time. Plus, if you've seen The Amazing Spider-Man or Daredevil (2015) or Luke Cage (2016) (all works that feature cops in prominent roles), honest cops usually don't like the idea of someone doing their job and a) making them look bad, and b) repeatedly committing crimes varying from assault and battery to destruction of public property to terrorist threats to reckless endangerment, etc, etc.
    • the persecution later on in the movie is due to simple human nature, you can save the day for a year straight but once things start going bad on your watch it is all your fault regardless of whether it is or not.
    • Especially after he gets pinned for the murder of Harvey Dent whom everyone loved and admired. Plus the Joker was killing people because he wanted to get to Batman and so they can blame him for that. Lastly, we don't know that Batman is persecuted by the populace. We only see the police chasing him and that's probably because of the government. It's likely that there's still a serious pro-Batman population in Gotham.
    • Also consider that Batman is starting to spawn imitators who aren't nearly as good or sane as he is, and possibly without his code against killing. His schtick is getting a little out of hand.
      • And how can the population at large be aware those imitators are fakes? For all they know, it's the real Batman who's been running around shooting up the slums, or at least put the copycats up to it.
    • In further addition, consider that plenty of people in Real Life deal with terrorism by considering it a force of nature and blaming the person or people whom they perceive as having "brought it down", usually its target.
    • There's also the fact that aside from Gordon, Lucius and Rachel, absolutely nobody knew Batman was responsible for saving the city in Begins. The only people who saw him that night were the escaped inmates and a bunch of fear-gassed citizens who thought he was a dragon.
    • Batman being persecuted is part of the job. He's a vigilante who inspires fear and often has to deal with monsters who are too similar to him for comfort. This film and the trilogy itself brings up the fact that as an outsider Batman can do good that goes beyond the law's control, but because people rely on the law for their security and guidance he unsettles them.

    Police Can't Save a Hostage 
  • Why is it that when The Joker tells Batman where Dent and Rachel were being held, it's necessary to only go after one of them? Couldn't the police have just as easily split up, one team going for one hostage, and another team going for the other?
    • They did split up. The police went after Harvey, and Batman went after Rachel.
      • Then why was only Harvey saved? Rachel couldn't have been too far away to be rescued, or the whole choice would have been meaningless.
      • Because Batman is just faster than the police. They were probably both the same distance away from the station. This is likely the plan: Rachel and Harvey are at two addresses, each an equal distance from the station. Both are just close enough for Batman to reach one before the explosion if he really books it, but it would take too long for a squad car to get to the other. That way, Bats only has time to save one and it's going to be the wrong one, because the Joker told him the wrong addresses. No matter what he or the police did - and there just wasn't time to do a whole lot - Batman was going to lose someone very important to him.
      • When Batman left the building, there were policemen... or at least Gordon, waiting outside.
      • Weren't they booby-trapped so that removing either victim would trigger the other bomb?
      • Gordon and Batman are at different locations when the bombs go off, both at the same time. Batman just got there first.
      • Standard police procedure is to establish a perimeter around the site and wait for SWAT to arrive. That's why the police were still outside when the bombs went off. After all, they have no idea what the Joker is planning, or if he's even telling them the truth. There could have been trip wires, or goons waiting to ambush and shoot the cops or Batman, for all they knew.
      • Batman went after Rachel, and the police went after Dent. However, the Joker lied about who was at which location. The point of the scenario was to make Batman choose which of them to make his priority, and then perform a nasty bait-and-switch.
      • Confirmed; the addresses provided in the dialog show that the Joker lied, saying that Harvey was where Rachel was and Rachel was where Harvey was; this can be demonstrated later by the fact that Two-Face's death site has the same address that was originally given for him, yet he says "where my family died". Also, the fact that as the police rush to try and save Dent, they say the address they're going to (the address provided by the Joker for Dent) but, of course, the police see Rachel die instead.
      • Fridge Brilliance posits that the Joker could easily have mixed up the addresses because he was dizzy from Batman slamming his head into the table all those times.
    • There was VERY heavy traffic, with Gordon's Crown Vic cruiser even having to mount the curb to get to Rachel at all. Bats, on the other hand, has a very agile, smaller vehicle. The cops all go after one person because that way, there's more chance of at least one of them getting there in time, and they know Bats is faster than they are, so they aren't going to risk getting in his way.
    • The police procedure explanation makes sense. Although, if they know as a fact the deadline for the bomb is before any special units can arrive, if they would go in anyway. But it's hard to believe there wasn't a single cop closer to the location who could have made it on time.
      • Once again, police procedure. If there's a bomb known to be located in a building with no visual, especially one that might be on a timer, the police are supposed to not enter the building unprepared, because all that would do is cost them more innocent lives should the bomb go off while they're inside. The correct procedure is to get a visual of the bomb and the hostage through infrared or the like (if possible), and then send in a team in special suits (or a bomb defusal robot; see the Dallas cop killings of 2016) to extract the hostage and/or neutralize the bomb after evacuating the area. It's a very lengthy process. If the Joker actually said specifically when the bomb would go off (he didn't) that might have changed things if desperation to save the hostage was a factor, since the police in that situation would probably ignore procedure in that case.
      • Police procedure or not, it takes more time to assemble the bomb squad members, get them into their special suits, and then get them into their cars, and then drive them there, no matter how urgent it is. Batman has better equipment, he can go out alone right now, and he has the Batpod to drive there in.

    Batman's One Rule 
  • What's with Batman's refusal to kill villains or use guns? It's not that people should kill each other more, and not advocating for guns in the real world here, but it's internally very inconsistent in the movies. Instead of just shooting the criminals (heck, he wouldn't even have to shoot to kill, he could try to aim to incapacitate,) he involves them in these ridiculous chases to try to force them to a standstill. Not only is there a good chance of them getting away to do more damage, but what about all the civilians who would potentially be harmed by a high-speed vehicle chase through the middle of a heavily-populated city, said chase usually being complete with fiery explosions? Why is it somehow more morally abhorrent to shoot one murderer than to allow an untold number of bystanders to be killed or injured in the apprehension of that murderer? Again, not advocating for vigilante justice in the real world— but if the premise of the movie is that he's going to be a vigilante, why place the lives of the criminals he's chasing above those of civilian bystanders? Is it only direct killing he objects to, and if so, can he not see how much room for abuse of power that allows?
    • The sad/stupid thing is that neither movie ever establishes that Batman doesn't kill. They just expect you to know this, even though he takes plenty of actions where it's completely unbelievable that nobody died.
      • What? It was established, quite clearly, in The Dark Knight that Batman does not kill. Maroni taunts Batman with it when he dangles him over the side of the building. The Joker even makes it extremely explicit during the interrogation scene, when he says that Batman only has one rule, and "Tonight you're going to break your one rule."
      • And Batman Begins had a very important scene where Ducard tells Bruce to execute a criminal and Bruce refuses.
      • And before that, Rachel slapped him twice for plotting to kill Joe Chill, which evidently made him contemplate about killing, although that part is off-screen.
      • Yet Batman is completely okay with killing off his former mentor through some rather flimsy Loophole Abuse, so the original point is still valid.
    • It's a genre convention, for one thing, and it's been explored in other contexts. The reason why Batman in particular doesn't kill people basically boils down to this: what gives him the right? He's a hero, not an executioner. How does he decide who deserves to die? He'd rather leave it up to the courts. Plus once he crosses that line, how does he know he'll stop there or what he'll become if he doesn't? Bruce is a very, very angry man, and there's really not a whole lot separating him from someone like Ra's al Ghul - but some of it is the decision to kill in the name of order. That's important to him. As long as he adheres to that rule, he's Not Like Them. Yeah, it does endanger people, he knows that, but it's a decision he made and he's dealing with it - and it's often very hard, as the movies prove.
      • Another interpretation. If Batman kills, then he's failed in his mission, to rid the city of the evil that took his parents and prove that the ultimate approach of fear and violence isn't the only way to do it, that true justice can still work. This is part of the Joker's point; he's trying to get Batman to break his one rule, and prove to him that no convictions or morals are absolute, and that, even if they are broken in one situation, virtues and justice are worthless in the face of real adversity. If Batman kills, even once, then he proves that you have to kill and compromise yourself in order to do the right thing, that Gotham, and, by extension, the world is incapable of being uplifted from the violence and darkness it's fallen into, that it's impossible to truly bring protection from peace, and, essentially, that his entire mission is a joke.
      • Not to mention that Batman has a very specific hatred of guns because Joe Chill used one to kill his parents. He recognizes the importance of the police having guns but he would never use one due to that traumatic occasion.
      • It's actually addressed in two shots in Batman Begins: Bruce is standing on the pier looking at the gun in his hands, and he flashes back to the gun Joe Chill used to kill his parents. In disgust/despair, he hurls the gun away, and doesn't carry a gun from that point onward.
      • None of the above sounds that bad. Sticking to morals that just don't work for the sake of your conscience doesn't sound very heroic.
      • You've got that a bit backwards; anyone who can disregard their conscience and morals the second they make things difficult or inconvenient is someone who essentially has no conscience or morals, which isn't very heroic. Besides which, the movie ultimately demonstrates that Batman's morals do work; the whole climax revolves around the people of Gotham proving the Joker's nihilistic viewpoint of them wrong.
      • It was summed up very nicely in Kingdom Come: When you strip everything else away from the Batman, what's left is someone who doesn't want to see anyone else die.
      • In a comic, Batman is visibly distressed and gives a big "NO!" when a mobster, who just killed a young kid, accidentally falls into a garbage trucks compactor.
      • Why does Batman have a gun on his Tumbler. Handguns are a no-no for him, but a couple cannons is? Granted, his aim is good, and he never hit anyone directly with it.
      • The guns mounted on the Tumbler fire rubber bullets, which can potentially be lethal in very rare freak circumstances, but generally are not.
      • Never mind the fact that in the comics Batman keeps and deploys thermite, C4 and hydrochloric acid amongst other things. The difference is, he doesn't use them on people. He uses them to breach doors, disable vehicles, or even to take someone like Superman down a peg or two. Batman can have guns on the Tumbler and not kill anyone, and the Joker can kill someone with a pencil. It's not the weapon, it's the man wielding it who decides if it kills someone.
      • There's a difference between shooting up the environment to intimidate opponents and clear out obstacles and shooting people. The weapons on the Tumbler are obviously there not to be used on human beings.
      • Also remember that the Tumbler wasn't built from scratch by Batman himself like all the other bat mobiles, but was an all ready built MILITARY vehicular, the weapons were probably just standard options that it came with, not something he went out of his way to include.
    • "Aiming to incapacitate" is a lot harder than it sounds. Bullets are designed to kill people, and that's something they are very good at; hitting an opponent in the leg or shoulder runs a very strong chance of severing important arteries or permanently disabling them. Batman is better off using dedicated nonlethal weapons than actual firearms.
      • Or not, there are literally hundreds of different types of non-lethal rounds available to normal citizens, much less the Goddamn Batman
      • Which is why he never actually aims at anyone. He only ever fires at walls or vehicles.
    • And remember... his parents were shot dead right in front of him. That's gotta account for SOME gun animosity.
      • This was actually played with in Mike Mignola's "The Doom that came to Gotham", where the Waynes are killed by knife, and Batman freely uses guns.
    • In addition to everything else, the penalty for attacking someone with a weapon is greater than just using your body. Sure, Wayne money could probably buy an entire team of lawyers to get him off, but it would be nice to start off with slightly smaller charges. He's just thinking ahead.
    • In Batman Beyond, a much older Bruce Wayne finally decided to stop being Batman the day he had to resort to threatening a mook with a gun in order to win a fight. Yeah, he really hates guns. And hey, three words: Honour Before Reason.
    • Batman doesn't kill, it's that simple, he'll capture someone and beat them bloody but he'll still deliver them to the police. it's the exact same reason why police officers will get in trouble for killing the worst guy in history when they're already in handcuffs. Maybe they'll stand with their backs turned while other prisoners kill the person but they can't actually kill the person.
      • It might make a huge difference, in the book of rules. Fair enough. But supposing you know someone is about to be killed—possess the means to stop it from happening—and deliberately choose to do nothing. In ethical terms, are you better than the person who does the actual killing?
    • A lot of people will condemn Batman for not killing his opponents but there's a reason why Batman doesn't listen to them. He's a hero no matter how dark he acts, he inspires people to be good, if he killed then it would show thousands it was okay to kill someone to make justice go a bit quicker.
    • Another reason is that Batman is not legit, he's a vigilante. If he were to kill he would be nothing more than a common criminal. That's why he can't kill: It's to separate him from the criminals.
    • Most versions of Batman are significantly more competent than the Batman presented here, so he manages to save everyone even without resorting to guns. Or, to put it another way, most adaptations of Batman are more idealistic.
    • Also, and though it's not a movie source, consider Batman's philosophy on guns as expressed in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns: "A gun is a coward's weapon; a liar's weapon. We make it too easy to kill, sparing ourselves the mess and the work..."
    • Batman DOES kill criminals in the comics. And he did use guns.
      • Early on, when DC wanted an angsty action hero. It was only later on that they gave him his code of honor and hatred of guns. Characterization Marches On.
    • Batman doesn't want to use guns or kill people. Keep in mind, he's not a police officer or a soldier; he doesn't have a responsibility to protect anyone. He does it because it's what he wants to do. You may not like that he does things the way he does, but would you rather have him go back to just being an idle rich playboy?
    • In the comics it is frequently stated or implied that since Batman is just barely on this side of evil and madness to begin with, he knows himself well enough to realize that breaking the one ultimate rule he's set for himself and going as far as anyone can go would be too possibly liable to push him all the way over the edge. And believe me, a Face–Heel Turn from Batman would be scary business indeed! The way he put it once in the comics is, "I [unlike the villains] can go out into the darkness and still come back."
    • This is why we have the Technical Pacifist trope. Batman refuses to kill, but he causes all sorts of pain, and half of the stuff he does would kill somebody in real life anyway. (Remember that car chase from Batman Begins? "It's a miracle no one was killed!") But frankly, it would be really hard on the writers if they had to invent ways for Batman to be effective and realistically nonlethal at the same time.
    • Except, at the end of the movie, Batman totally does kill Harvey Dent and doesn't really seem bothered by it.
      • That's because Batman didn't intend to kill Harvey Dent. Batman was trying to save Gordon's son - letting his life hang on a coin flip was just too big a risk - and Dent's fall to his death was an unfortunate accident that resulted. It was involuntary manslaughter.

    Don't Save the Joker! 
  • What the HELL happened to "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you." from Batman Begins? If anything, the Joker is worse than that villain from the first movie. Why didn't Batman just let him die like he did that guy?
    • Technically speaking, the villain from the first movie could have possibly extracted himself from that situation (and might well have done so if, like Batman, he had done something rather than merely stare at approaching death and close his eyes.) The Joker, however, cannot fly, which is the only way he would have extracted himself from that predicament. Besides which, the whole point of the Joker's scheme there is to get Batman to prove he's not a hero by forcing to kill the Joker there, and damned if Batman's gonna give him the satisfaction.
      • And where exactly was he supposed to go? He only had two real options; either go back through the cars behind him, which would take minutes at best when he only had mere seconds, or jump out the gaping hole in the front and get run over by the train itself. There was no escape, the film made this very clear, hence Ra's closing his eyes to calm his thoughts before his imminent death.
      • He could have run and jumped out of the massive hole in the back of the train car that Batman made when he impressively flew out.
    • Two possible reasons:
      • First, Ra's Al Ghul had put himself in the situation that resulted in his death. He got on the train and set off for Wayne tower knowing full well that Batman would have to try and stop the train somehow. Contrast this with TDK where Batman actually threw the Joker off the building. If Batman hadn't stopped the Joker from falling there'd be no other way of interpreting it other than Batman directly killing him.
      • Second, it's probably just a case of straight-up Character Development. In Begins, Batman was new to the game and still developing his methods and morals. In Dark Knight he has grown into his role and has fully adopted the principles that make him who he is. Some inconsistency between the two films is to be expected.
      • Which fits perfectly with the comics. In his first few appearances, Batman did kill.
      • Yeah, back in the Golden Age.
    • Killing the Joker means the Joker wins. Didn't the movie make that clear?
      • It stated it, but it never made it clear that was a correct point of view. Killing the Joker = lots of innocent people saved = good.
      • How so? The only chance he had to kill the Joker was when he was falling off the building. At that point, the people were already saved.
      • It stated and demonstrated the point. The Joker may claim otherwise, but he's the most meticulous schemer in the trilogy - he engineers situations wherein even if he loses, he wins. Sure, you've saved a lot of innocent people, but you had to sacrifice the core premise of your moral justification for your actions to do it and have therefore sent yourself down the path of darkness. To beat him, you have to be better than he could expect you to be - you have to be able to save those innocent people and spare his life; he has won if you fail at one or the other. The Joker's plan wasn't about killing a bunch of people, it was about making people more like him - and Batman killing him would have accomplished that. Batman failing to save the people on the boats would have accomplished that. One of the boats blowing up the other would have accomplished that. Destroying the image and legacy of Harvey Dent would have accomplished that. He sets up so many things that will accomplish his goal, and makes it so that stopping one makes it harder to stop some or all of the rest. He only lost, in the end, because he was wrong about the people of Gotham.
      • Right before he declares that he doesn't have to save him, Batman breaks a window which Ra's could easily escape through. Ra's chose not to because he had ultimately failed. The League of Shadows had been crippled, his plan to destroy Gotham was in ruins (it would be nine years before Bane could pull off something more successful), he has no chance of ultimate escape because he would be captured within short order, and he had ultimately been proven wrong in the idea that "doing what is necessary" means having to kill. In the face of this realization, he chooses to accept his failure (and the resultant punishment) with quiet dignity.
      • He broke the window just to create a wind strong enough for him to use his hanglider-wings.
      • A little from column A, a little from column B. Batman's preparing his own escape, but it's a pretty big hole. Ra's could easily have ran and jumped through it.
      • One could interpret the kids' stories from Gotham Knight as an illustration of all the things Nolan's Batman-series reboot is not. He's not spooky for its own sake, he's not supernatural, he's not unreasonably high-tech ... and he's not a killer. He's just a very driven, dedicated human being, as the fourth kid's actual contact with the Dark Knight proved.
    • Then again, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Ra's could have escaped through the window that Batman broke through, just waiting till Batman himself was gone.
      • The problem with this is, that Ra's literally has about two seconds after Batman jumps out the window he broke through. And even if he does manages to react in time and jump out, he's going to be falling a pretty damn far distance, which he probably wouldn't survive. There is literally no way for Ra to survive that scene.
      • He's a ninja, he could have figured out something. Given the absurdly large explosion and absurdly small amount of time, he'll be a contender for the epitome of No One Could Survive That! if it turns out he's still alive.
    • It was that Ra's put himself in that situation with no escape, where Batman pushed the Joker off the building. Therefore it would've been on his hands and it wouldn't fall into not saving him.
    • True, the Joker wants to create a city gone mad, but he wants to do it to prove that it can be done, and seems only interested in Gotham. Ra's, however, makes it pretty clear that he would do this to every society in the world if he has to. If one had to kill only one of them, it would definitely be Ra's.
    • Also, who's to say we're supposed to see Batman's refusal to kill as a good thing? In the comics Batman constantly wrestles with the moral implications of leaving his enemies alive and has come close to the edge so many times it's almost a cliche. Looking at Batman's no-kill code as one of the character's faults is... well interesting if nothing else.

    Prisoner's Dilemma: What button does what? 
  • In the bit with the two boats leaving Gotham, it didn't occur to anyone on either boat that the Joker might have been lying, and had given each boat its own detonator after all? That argument alone would have quickly shut down any thoughts of activating the detonator without all the ethical quandaries.
    • It occurred to me, to, but this was the classic Prisoner's Dilemma. Could you trust that those on the other boat would not blow the ship up if they were wrong?
    • Not exactly. In the Prisoner's Dilemma, the two can "win" by collaborating, but in the Joker's scenario they would both lose.
    • Eh, modified prisoner's dilemma, equilibrium would be the same, if you know, the boat that didn't make the choice wasn't you know, exploded.
    • The Joker was probably lying. Remember that his whole point is corrupting peoples' morals, so pushing the detonator would probably just blow up your own ferry boat, or maybe even a skyscraper somewhere, as that is what his schtick is. Plus the Joker consistently lies: he switched the clowns with the hostages and he switched the addresses of Harvey and Rachel. The Batman said he was going after Rachel but he found Harvey Dent instead.
    • When it came right down to it, the people on the boats didn't choose to give up, they chose not to be killers. And they did it knowing they would die, but at least they wouldn't be responsible. The point was to corrupt them, and they essentially decided they would not be corrupted. It doesn't matter if the Joker was lying or telling the truth; either could be the case with the same outcome, and it wasn't the point at all.
      • Good point. If that's the case, that makes Harvey Dent's nosedive all the less believable. If one clearly upstanding guy can be so easily and thoroughly corrupted, you'd think a mass of people, particularly the convicts on that one boat, would've pulled the trigger in an instant, especially when they (unlike Dent) had actual motivation.
      • Frankly, the prisoners deciding not to press the button makes a whole lot of sense. They knew there were likely kids on the other boat. Many prisoners do commit some truly heinous crimes, but at the same time, they don't like kids getting hurt in the process. This is why child molesters get put in solitary confinement.
      • They aren't kept in solitary, in fact... take it from a corrections officer. There are too many and the cost would be incredible. But they are treated as a special risk category for abuse by other prisoners. In fact many were abused themselves as children.
      • Did you listen to the big speech afterwards? 'Until their spirit breaks completely.' The Joker had spent a great deal of time and effort breaking Harvey Dent. One's girlfriend/fiancee's death, having half your face burnt off and being in horrible pain every goddamn second, all of which was caused by someone you trusted, certainly counts as motivation to snap and go on a rampage especially considering Harvey had been shown to have something dark in him from the get go.
      • Also, the movie implies that Dent wasn't too tightly wrapped to begin with. He was Gotham's White Knight, trying to reform the den of scum and villainy that it had become, and he felt like he was banging his head against a wall when he discovered that some of the city's finest were crooked. The Two-Face thing was just the ultimate culmination of lawful-aligned cynicism.
      • The Joker wasn't lying, seeing as he'd want the sadistic boat who killed off the other to be the ones remaining. He was big on Anarchy.
    • Again, the simple truth is that it doesn't matter. Whether the Joker would have the people blow up one boat, both boats, neither boat, or any other combination is ultimately irrelevant. The purpose of the exercise was for the Joker to force people to come down to his level, to show the rest of the city that everyone was as corruptible as anyone else. And he failed. That's the only point to it. Wondering which detonator would destroy which boat simply detracts from the more fundamental result of the exercise: no one blew anyone up.
      • Indeed. Besides, if they think of that, then they end up questioning everything endlessly, rather than concentrating on the threat at hand, and realize that no matter what they do they're screwed.
      • The kicker is that the Joker wins either way. If one of the boats presses the detonator, he proves all people can be corrupted. If they don't, he blows up both of them, proving that the only way out is to take the path of evil. The only way he loses is if neither presses the detonator, and Bats manages to stop him.
      • Except he wouldn't prove that about all people, just about a few people.
      • Between this and the other two points you put up, you're taking things far too much at their literal face value. It was symbolic, and meant to be representative of humanity. Of course he's not going to prove something is "correct" about every single person out there. Nobody can. That's why any experiment uses a representative sample.
    • Come to think of it, Is there a single instance in the entire movie that would make them think he was bluffing? This guy just blew up a friggin' hospital on a whim. And besides, he wasn't bluffing, he just got interrupted.
    • Note that, for his hospital threat, the Joker had absolutely no way of knowing whether anyone killed Reece or not. He was going to blow up the hospital anyway, regardless of whether anyone obeyed his order. So, he might not bluff, but you'd be a sucker to take him at his word.
    • Personally, the Joker lying would be pointless. The entire point of the boat exercise was showing that everyone, deep down, is as sick and twisted as the Joker. If the detonators set off both boats, he wouldn't know which one chose to set off the bomb (the optimum result would be the civilians choosing to blow up the other boat.) and if they blew up their own boat, he wouldn't be able to rub it in their face that he was right.
      • There is absolutely no way of predicting for certain what The Joker is going to do, in that situation or most others. That's what makes the situation—and the character—so great.
      • WMG - The Joker himself didn't know which boat was wired to which detonator. He give the detonators and the explosive to different lackeys, with orders to not tell which boat they choose.
      • He wouldn't care one way or the other whether anything was proved by that situation; he did say he wasn't about to bet the battle for Gotham's soul on being able to outfight Batman long enough to blow up some boats. IMO, he just wanted to see the explosion and laugh at the thought of all the people he freaked out.
      • Given how the Joker's motif seems to be showing the ugliness in everyone, it seems likely that if the civilians had blown up the boat with the criminals, he could have called them up on the radio and said that this proved that they were no better than the prisoners, since they killed in order to stay alive.
    • The whole point of the ships was that no matter what, as long as at least one boat blows up, the Joker wins. Think about it: if one boat pulled the trigger and it blew up their own boat, everyone would assume the other boat pulled the trigger, based on what the joker said. For the Joker, the means really are just a way to an end; that is, he doesn't care what he has to do to get his way, just so long as he gets it. No matter what way the boats were rigged, the Joker still would have won if Batman hadn't shown up.
    • All of the above about the point of the exercise from the Joker's perspective is true; it didn't have to be a moral dilemma for those actually on the boats. It could have been a merely rational one - if it had occurred to anyone that they couldn't be sure which detonator blew up which boat, there would be no question of what to do. It is true that they still wouldn't know what the other boat would choose to do, but they have no control over that either way, and they don't even know if pressing their own detonator would save them or destroy them.
    • There were children on that boat. No matter how uncomfortable it makes them feel, a mother would always, first and foremost, place the lives and welfare of their own children above themselves, and if that means they have to become a killer, so be it, especially when it means taking out the scum of society.
    • Heck of a blanket statement. Considering there are mothers who have sold out their own children for themselves, literally and figuratively, and even murdered their own children, that one would "always" act as you suggest just doesn't bear out.
    • The basic point that in general mothers are psychologically inclined to protect their offspring against any threat, even at the cost of their own life, is hardly an unsupportable one.
    • Presumably, there were at least a few people on that boat who were willing to take extreme measures to keep the children alive. But there was a chance that hitting the button would blow up your own boat, in which case you'd actually be killing the children rather than saving them. And even putting that aside, I think everyone was hoping for a Third Option to show up... which is exactly what happened, in the end.

    The Magic(ally Inconspicuous) School bus 
  • The Joker can just back a school bus into the front door of a bank, sit there for 10 minutes, not attract any attention, then smoothly pull out into traffic with a bunch of other school buses and nobody's gonna NOTICE? Like say, the bus driver right behind him, wouldn't you think the driver might think, 'hey that's weird, why is a bus pulling out of the bank trailing rubble?'
    • Given what a crappy, depressed city Gotham is depicted as, they were demonstrating the Bystander Syndrome. Just keeping their head down and trying to make it to the end of the day.
    • Rule of Cool Ditto the rest of the movie.
    • Also, it's totally possible that the rest of those bus drivers were on the Joker's payroll.
    • How did it get the momentum for it? That street was not very wide and there was plenty of traffic on the other side.
    • Based on the timing, as well as the gap between the buses, it's reasonable to assume a couple of things: a) the police didn't see the bus pull out of the bank (or smash into it, for that matter), and b) the other buses are driven by more of the Joker's lackeys, considering the absolute lack of reaction from the other drivers, and the fact that no children are visible in any of the buses. Plus, the bus driver that gets killed specifically says "School's out, time to go", meaning they were anticipated. And if you look closely, that opening in the line of school buses for the Joker's bus to fit in to was clearly by design. Why would such a long train of buses be driving through the heart of downtown Chicagotham if not to create an elaborate smoke-screen?
      • Though while no children are in the buses, we hear the laughter of children as they drive by. Creepy, or bad sound editor?
    • Given that it's a bank owned by the mob, and the possible chance that it's one of those "well known secrets", the pedestrians and witnesses just probably thought that the mob will take care of them later. In fact, they're used to bank robberies. It would not be surprising if the mob banks in Gotham are deliberately "robbed" from time to time to cover up the transfer of illicit funds, the laundering of money from one bank to another, or untraceable withdrawals, for stuff like bribes, paying off rival gangs, the like.

    The Wayne Party: Batman's Gone, What Now? 
  • The Joker crashes the fundraiser party and throws Rachel out the window. Batman jumps out after her and saves her, leaving the Joker there with all the guests and a fairly poorly-hidden Harvey Dent. (Seriously. In a closet? With a bar across the double doors? The Joker would never look there!) Then the movie moves on to later scenes. What did the Joker do while Batman was gone? Schmooze with the guests? Help himself to a bit more wine? They just leave a tense moment without resolving it.
    • He threw Rachel out the window to distract Batman and make a getaway. However, why Batman not rush up there to check, instead laying there cuddling and cracking jokes.
      • Well, come on, he just fell how many stories onto a car? Some personal pain is preventing him from moving for a bit. Plus, Joker lets go of Rachel's arm, and then immediately starts running away in the split second before he's out of frame. It's reasonable to assume he continued running, because he knew Batman would be coming back and getting out of a penthouse in time would be a big enough concern.
      • The cape did nothing to slow their speed, by the impact their bodies had on the car. Batman wraps himself around Rachel as if his body would somehow absorb the kinetic force of their momentum, and even if that's the case, he himself gets off without harm.
      • The cape being unable to fully deploy plus being weighed down by Rachel meant it wasn't nearly as effective as it usually would have been, but it still did something to lessen the impact.
      • In order for the cape to do something it would have to be "open" like a parachute or kite, allowing the air to catch from underneath it. Instead it was wrapped around them like a ball. Even forgetting that, assuming the flapping edges of his cape slowed them down somehow, they still hit the car with enough force to shatter bones. How much they were slowed we can't really know, but however much it was it was still enough to crumple the car's window and top, and that's not something you can just walk away from.
      • If you notice, when they're about 10 feet from the ground, his cape does open for a second, which might have slowed their fall a little. Probably not enough to avoid injury, but we're talking about Batman here. The car was probably just so scared of him, it crumpled under him to absorb the blow, rather than risk angering him.
    • The Joker did point out that he thought for a while that Dent was Batman. Having Dent vanish from the party and Batman appear would certainly seem like a big clue, and shift Joker's focus away from searching the penthouse.
    • According to the novelization by Dennis O'Neil, the Joker was escaping during this time, and Batman even sees his getaway car speeding by while he and Rachel are recuperating. Additionally, while getting away, the Joker wonders if Rachel is "someone special" to Batman, so by this point he may have been considering that Batman is Harvey Dent, which lines up with the above comment.
    • What Harvey was told after the party? Since he woke up in a closet that was barred from the outside, with little to no memory of how he got there, he'd have a few questions. Also, does Rachel ever tell him about getting thrown out the window? Maybe that's how she distracts him from asking questions about the closet incident.
      • Once he's told of how the party was interrupted and by who, it really isn't much of a logical leap for Dent to figure out that Batman sapped him and stuffed him in a closet to keep the Joker from finding him. Which is actually what happened, let us note.
      • Bruce is counting on him thinking it was Batman. Which is why when he grabs Dent from behind and locks him in the sleeper hold, he uses his Batman voice to tell Rachel, "They've come for him. Stay hidden."

    Four Funerals or Five? 
  • At the end of the film, Gordon and Batman discuss how to deal with the five murders that Dent committed. But there are only three killings - those of Detective Wuertz, Maroni, and Maroni's driver. Even if Ramirez died from her pistol whipping, that leaves one unaccounted murder. Who else did he kill?
    • The only other one is the guy who was supposed to be in the car with Maroni. If you watch closely, you can see him get dragged off.
      • There's four: Wuertz, Maroni, Maroni's Driver, and the guy he does away with to get into Maroni's car. Perhaps it was a mistake. It's entirely likely that a scene was shot in which Ramirez did die, and it was changed in editing. If that happened, it's also probable that Oldman's line was shot as "four" and "five" and the editors left the wrong one in.
    • Gordon said: "five dead, two of them cops." So apparently Ramirez did die from being pistol whipped (either that, or Harvey found a creative reason to flip again like he did with Maroni).
      • Another possibility: The Joker shoots a cop at the hospital, then hands a gun to Harvey later on. If it's the same gun, perhaps Dent was blamed for that murder as well. Of course, that cop's body would've been blown up, and the Joker's gun doesn't appear to be the revolver he hands Harvey. (For one thing, it has a silencer/suppressor on it, and revolvers can't be silenced.)
      • The cop's remains could have still been mostly intact, if somewhat crushed. The building was blown up, but it wasn't a fire-based explosive.
      • Actually, notice that Officer Polk (that's his name in the script) goes into the hospital when his partner Davis doesn't radio back that there's space on one of the buses for Dent. When he goes into Dent's room, the Joker is disguised as a nurse and shoots him with the gun that he just used to shoot Davis. And Wuertz may not have been a cop as far as Gordon was concerned, given his corruption.
    • If Harvey died in the fall, he'd be number five.
      • Considering that they were able to pin the murders on him, it's not that he WAS the fifth.
      • Okay, Gordon knows that there were two cop traitors and that Dent was out to kill them. Perhaps he just falsely assumed that Ramirez had been killed instead of spared.
      • After all, Gordon had no way of knowing that she was still alive. So, including the other cop, Maroni, Maroni's drive, and Dent himself, those are the five deaths..
      • Yeah, Gordon knows that A) Ramirez was guarding his family, and B) Dent kidnapped his family. Presuming he went straight from the Joker to Dent's, he probably would have assumed Dent killed Ramirez.
    • It also could have been the bartender with Wuertz. Harvey wouldn't have managed to learn how to appear and disappear into thin air after just seeing it once.
      • Watching it again, it seems that the five deaths are as follows: Wuertz, the bartender, Maroni, his driver, and Dent himself. Assuming that Gordon knows about Ramirez, that is. If he doesn't, then [remove the bartender, and add Ramirez, which is the most likely situation. He doesn't refer to people being murdered, just people dead. And he simply says that there's no way to cover it all up and make Dent out to be the white knight the city needs. So, he not listing Dent's kills, he's simply stating the fact that so many dead people can't be hidden from the public. Which prompts Batman to state that he killed "these" people. Note the use of the word "these". He's explicitly including Dent.
    • Nolan was actually asked about the seeming inconsistency in the body count. His reply: "I will answer this question one day. But not today." Here is a list of whom he could have meant:
      • 1. The cops guarding Harvey Dent at Gotham General Hospital. Polk radios a Davis, who is guarding Dent's room. Davis doesn't reply, so Polk goes in to check out the situation. He goes into Dent's hospital room, where The Joker shoots him and presumably has already shot the other guard. That's two cops right there and it's possible that Gordon assumed that Harvey killed them when he left the hospital not realizing it was actually The Joker.
      • 2. Detective Wuertz. Killed in the bar.
      • 3. Detective Anna Ramirez. While Harvey lets her live, he knocks her out. She would have at least been reported missing. Gordon, knowing she's the one who drove Rachel, might have assumed she was dead. Or, less likely, Dent inadvertently killed her—although he intends to let her live, she could have been severely injured (e.g., head striking pavement) after being knocked out by Dent, and subsequently died.
      • 4. Maroni's bodyguard. When Maroni walks out of the building, and then walks around to get in the passenger side of his car, look to the left of the screen on the driver's side of the car. The bodyguard standing there is grabbed by Dent in a chokehold and pulled off-screen. (It's very fast and very quiet so don't take your eye off that guy.)
      • 5. Maroni's driver. Shot in the back of the neck by Harvey while driving through the Amtrak yard.
      • 6. Salvatore Maroni. While Harvey walks away from the crash unscathed, we never find out what happened to Maroni after Harvey flipped heads for him. We can assume he was either killed in the crash because he wasn't wearing his seat belt or left Gotham and went into hiding afterwards.
      • 7. Gordon could have meant Dent himself, because in The Dark Knight Rises the public is under the impression that Batman murdered Harvey Dent in cold blood. It is never mentioned who else that Batman had supposedly killed.
      • 8. The bartender. This one's a far-fetched theory, but here it is. When Harvey goes to the bar to kill Wuertz, the bartender goes to the bathroom. Seconds later, we hear Harvey walk out of the bathroom. He might have also killed the bartender to get rid of a witness. Note that Two-Face always obeys the flip of his coin no matter who the person is or what they might have done wrong. If this did happen, the reasons the scene might have been cut are 1) it was too violent even for a PG-13 film; 2) it was too early for Two-Face to kill an innocent person (it would have been his first murder); and 3) Christopher Nolan wanted him to be a tragic character and therefore wanted to focus on him taking revenge on the people who ruined his life, rather than on him killing an innocent bystander.
      • 9. The cops guarding Gordon's apartment. Also a bit far-fetched, but when forced to call Barbara Gordon, Ramirez refers to cops that are guarding the Gordons, and tells Barbara that they're not to be trusted. After letting Ramirez off, Dent might have killed them in order to ensure that they didn't stop the Gordons from leaving. Note that during the phone call, Ramirez stated that she could distract the cops long enough for the Gordons to leave—but Dent then strikes her. If so, then Gordon is not referring to Wuertz—implying that Gordon did not know Wuertz had been killed.
      • However, since Gordon was in the observation room during the interrogation scene, where the Joker told Batman, "You didn't disappoint; you let five people die," fans could argue it could be five people the Joker killed: Brian Douglas (the fake Batman who was dangled in front of the Mayor's office windows), Judge Janet Surrillo (the judge presiding over Dent's mass prosecution of the mobsters), Commissioner Gillian B. Loeb (the police commissioner), Patrick Harvey and Richard Dent (the two men in the apartment where the Joker left notice of his plot to kill the Mayor).
        The flaw in this argument, as far as comparing this to Gordon's final statement to Batman after Dent's death, is that it's a matter of record that the Joker killed these other people or had them killed in league with Maroni, and Batman's "letting" them die was simply a matter of Batman not turning himself in and revealing his true identity, at which point the Joker would have retreated (though Rachel thinks not). Gordon is referring to people who have died after Dent's disappearance, and whose deaths might be traced to Dent. And remember that by that time, Rachel was already dead, which would have upped the Joker's death count to six. Another possibility is that the deaths were off-screen in some way. The Joker says that he wanted to see what Batman would do, after putting out his ultimatum to turn in his mask, or "people will die". So, the five deaths in question could be those that took place after this happens. In which case the "five dead" would be casualties amongst the police who were part of the car chase scene: the two helicopter pilots, the cop at the roadblock that the Joker killed with his shotgun, and maybe two more from the chase scene (likely the two in the pilot car he shot with the RPG). The Joker says that Batman let these people die because he didn't really turn himself in, and the Joker knew it. This would also explain how all the dead would be friends to the police (lining up with Stephens' remarks).

    Batman takes the fall 
  • Why does Batman have to take the blame for Harvey's murders in the first place? Couldn't they have just as conveniently blamed those killings on the Joker, so Harvey got to remain their white knight and Batman doesn't have to become Public Enemy No. 1?
    • Considering that this is the Joker, he very well could have had alibis for every one of those murders already in place. At the very least, it would be next to impossible for Batman to not be implicated in Harvey's own death, considering how many cops were at the scene, so he's still going to be responsible for that death.
    • He does have an alibi. He was setting up the ferry plot the whole time. And he has about fifty hostages from the hospital to verify it. Crazy-Prepared indeed.
    • Batman has a pragmatic reason to allow himself to be blamed. Earlier in the film there's a scene that suggests that Batman is having trouble: the mobsters are learning that while they may get the tar beaten out of them and left for arrest, that Batman will not kill them. Consequently, Batman has lost the element of fear and dread that makes him effective. With Batman blamed publicly for murder, the mobsters will begin fearing him again, believing Batman capable of cold-blooded killing. Batman doesn't care if the public likes him; as long as he knows he hasn't broken his moral code against killing, he's content with letting other people believe he's capable of killing.
    • It might help stop all those lame Batman wannabes from getting themselves trounced and/or killed, too.
    • And blaming them on The Joker would have meant that The Joker would have won: We was shown to break Gotham's White Knight and Batman would only have been blamed for having been incapable of saving the city.

    Arkham's Fate 
  • They made references to people being from Arkham Asylum. Why the hell are they still using it? HOW, if its been so short a time that Wayne Manor hasn't even been rebuilt yet?
    • Wayne Manor was burnt to cinders, but Arkham only had a hole in the wall.
    • It's been a year. "A year ago the cops were afraid to touch you" etc etc.
    • Don't forget that they have to build the Bat Cave, too. If a construction company accidentally found it while working his identity wouldn't be secret for long.
    • It took them a while to regain the Narrows, but when they did, they managed to lock up a lot of the escaped looneys. That might explain why Batman is dealing with something as ultimately trivial as mob money.
      • Actually, that's not really that trivial. It's stated that Lau is the mob's only money launderer, thanks to the very thorough efforts of the Gotham Police. Thus, catching Lau would effectively bankrupt the mob and could put them out of business. Indeed, if not for the Joker's involvement, it could have worked.
    • Also, Gotham Knight has a story that shows the new Arkham, which has expanded to cover the entire island (the Narrows were abandoned). Now the entire place teeming with criminals (not locked up or anything; just walking around and using guns and stuff) and more of a super-prison that an asylum. The segments are all canon, so that's what it'll look like if the place reappears in the third movie.
    • Since when is Gotham Knight part of the Nolan-verse cannon?
      • Since it came out and was noted as taking place between the first and second movies?
      • Even if it was intended to be canon at the time of release, given that two other movies have been and gone since then with nary a peep of anything that happened in it being referred to in the 'main' trilogy, and since we've certainly never seen or heard of anything on the lines of a massive super-prison of crazed inmates wandering around in an anarchic free-for-all Escape from New York/Arkham City style (which you think would have been mentioned in The Dark Knight Rises at least), it seems that that this particular detail has been quietly retconned.
      • Or perhaps they cleaned it up between The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises.

    Manager not Noticed 
  • Why did the Joker-Bankrobbers ignore the guy in the glass-walled room in the middle of the lobby at the bank when they were telling everyone to put there hands up and their heads down?
    • They didn't see him. Seriously, check out that wall: there's plants or something in front of the windows. And quite frankly, they are so hyped on adrenaline or drugs or both that they simply didn't think of it. Also, the Joker planned the whole thing: maybe he knew and didn't tell them that the guy would have a shotgun. Especially considering what he does later.
      • The office is clearly visible. Joker knew and didn't tell the others, so that hopefully the manager would kill one of his guys.
      • Or two. The guy who was killed by the bus driver was probably originally supposed to be killed by the manager (he got shot in the arm instead). Joker did seem somewhat surprised/upset that he was still alive. He took care of things quickly enough though.
    • Here's one idea. The Joker is a man with multiple alternate plans. Presumably, if the manager hadn't shot Chuckles, and the bus driver hadn't run over Grumpy, what would have happened is: Chuckles would have shot Grumpy (since Grumpy had shot Happy and Happy had shot Dopey), the bus driver would have killed Chuckles, and the Joker would still have killed the bus driver.
      Then again, the Joker plans well ahead, so very likely, what goes down in the final movie probably could have the main plan all along: the Joker is fully aware he is robbing a mob-controlled bank. Therefore, he either knew, or at the very least made an educated guess, that the manager had some sort of firearm stashed in his office, and thus had Chuckles stand with his back to the manager's office so the manager would shoot him in the back. He also made Grumpy place the bags too close to the door so that he would be run over when the bus burst in.

    Joker's Convoy Prediction Skills 
  • Exactly how did the Joker know where they were going to turn back onto a major road during the chase scene? Did he have men on every street to stop helicopters?
    • The Joker had the luxury of picking the exact time and place for his attack. Why not pick one with a very limited # of possible escape routes? Also, its not hard to predict that after losing all of his chase cars and being shot at with an RPG, the police van driver is going to make an immediate beeline to where he can get back in touch with his aerial escort.
    • Why did the police go underground at all? Sure, the Joker blocked off their route, but the other side of the road was completely clear. They mentioned they'd closed off all the roads, so they didn't have to worry about a head-on collision or anything, and they could have more or less gone the route they'd planned with a slight detour around the truck.
      • Notice that the route that's blocked off keeps on the same level as the rest of the street, while the route they take (underground) is clearly on a downwards slope, so the vehicle couldn't have forced its way onto the top path since it wasn't level with the rest of the road.
      • Eh? They didn't have to go down at all - If they took the next turning, they could have gone around the truck and the ramp.
    • Going back to "convoy prediction skills," remember that the Joker is hired by several factions of organized crime, who had people on the GCPD; Ramirez and Wuertz, for example. It's plausible there was someone on the force supplying the Joker with the Convoy route and possible contingencies.

    Setting up the Boats 
  • How did the Joker even manage to set up the boat scenario? With the Sadistic Choice and hospital scenario, it's plausible they were both a long time in the planning, but the boats was based on a last minute decision to evacuate in an emergency.
    • It's possible he knew that a mass evacuation would follow his ultimatum (he did suggest it, after all!) and knew the boats were the most likely way that it would happen.
      • He did. He specifically warned everyone during his ultimatum that the bridges were off-limits. The boats were the only way out.
      • Actually, he said the bridge and tunnel crowd would be "in for a surprise" which everyone took for a threat. The real surprise, of course, was that he put bombs on the boats instead/too.
      • It was a case of "instead". The Joker is saying they're "in for a surprise", which people take to mean that people at the bridges and tunnel are going to die. But it's the Joker, so everyone's suspecting that. Thus, the "surprise" is that those places WONT kill anyone!" My problem is, why didn't people, if they were that desperate, just swim across the rivers? Sure you can't take your stuff with you, and it'd be tough, and not for everyone, but it'd be a relatively short and easy looking swim for someone fit, and it's not a bridge or a tunnel (or a boat), AND there's even ladders/walkways along the water's edge that would make it very easy to get up! On the other hand, there are police everywhere keeping people off the bridge...
      • Are you serious? Ever tried to swim over the Hudson?
      • The confusion there is that the canon layout of Gotham has wide rivers, but the actual shot Nolan used was the Chicago river which a few hundred feet wide, at most.
      • But when the Joker was telling the people on the ferries about their choice, didn't he quickly mention that if anybody tried to jump out and make a break for it he'd just explode both boats? Maybe you're talking about people who weren't on the ferries, but was he able to make everyone else by the water hear? If so, he probably meant it for them too (as in, if they decided to swim he'd just blow up the boats). He was obviously keeping a watchful eye during the whole thing.
      • They checked out the bridges and tunnels with a fine tooth comb but no one ever thought to check the boats out?
      • Why would they? The Joker specifically said bridges and tunnels, and he's a man of his word. Until he breaks it.
      • Yeah, because the Joker specifically mentioned the bridges and tunnels and all their resources were focused on those. And everybody wanted out; "Come nightfall, this city is mine, and any left plays by my rules." No one would want to be the one to tell people they couldn't leave after an ultimatum like that from the Joker.
      • Nobody was in the engine room of either ferry at all before the launch. You'd think there would be crew down there making sure everything is running properly who would notice barrels full of explosives that shouldn't be there.
      • Forget the bridges, tunnels, and boats. Lucius Fox states that Gotham is a city of 30 million people (probably counts the Gotham metropolitan area, but still). That's more than any city in the world save Tokyo. You'd think a city of this size would have an AIRPORT.
      • Airports A. have limited, previously scheduled flights that are probably full up so that almost nobody who wasn't already leaving the city could have gotten on a plane in such short notice, and B. tend to be miles and miles and miles away from the city it mainly services because planes are very loud and need a lot of wide open space to take off and land. Even if Gotham does have an airport with its name on it, it's very likely you'd have to take a train, bridge, or tunnel to get to it. In Chicago (where the first two movies were filmed), O'Hare and Midway are both about 10 or so miles away from the Loop; and in New York City (which Gotham takes the place of), JFK, LaGuardia and Newark are all ways away from Manhattan.

    Fox a Hypocrite? 
  • So Lucius Fox lets Bruce Wayne walk away with explosives, a tank, an extremely lethal Batsuit, not to mention cooking the books to siphon off the millions of company dollars it takes to pay for all this, and covers up for a known fugitive wanted by the police... but when Batman wants to use the sonic cell phone trick to find the Joker before he murders thousands of people, somehow that and that alone crosses the line?
    • Just to clarify, it's never said that Bruce Wayne is taking money from Wayne Enterprises to fund his mission as Batman - the guy is a multi-millionaire. Equipment might "disappear" but money never does.
    • Well, his cell phone trick was essentially spying on a whole lot of people, including innocents. He could tell exactly where anyone in the city was as long as they were using a cell phone. Lucius was okay with Batman, who is using all of those toys and money to nab criminals and help people, but he was not okay with Bruce pulling a Big Brother. Plus, he didn't know that it wasn't a permanent addition to Batman's toys.
      • But if Lucius was okay with letting Bruce have all that other equipment because he trusted him not to misuse it, why wouldn't Lucius trust Bruce not to misuse the magic cell phone trick?
      • Because Bruce was going to use Lucius' other toys on criminals. The cell phone trick specifically exploited innocents (and it was much, much more powerful than anything he had before). Lucius himself used the cell phone trick on the Hong Kong gangster without complaint.
      • Technically Lucius used his cell phone to knock out the security devices at the building in Hong Kong. The sonar phone was just a new toy he showed Bruce. Bruce's device allowed him to see and hear anyone in Gotham using a Wayne Industries cell phone, which, for some reason, seemed to be at least half the city. Which is why we should think twice before buying an iPhone.
      • It was probably some sort of There Should Be a Law thing about the Patriot Act.
      • It probably was (a thinly-veiled reference to the Patriot Act, that is). Bruce never said anything about using the cell phone trick to spy on average Gothamites. He specifically said he was just trying to track down the Joker, which falls squarely into the "only for use on criminals" category in my opinion. Also the whole "Lucius was okay with it when Bruce was just using his Bat-gear to catch bad guys and help people" excuse doesn't really fly when you consider the full implications of what Bruce was doing. First, embezzling (and it definitely does count as embezzlement) all the money needed to pay for all that Bat-gear (plus the money to maintain, repair, or replace damaged Bat-gear) is a serious violation of the law and, presumably, whatever ethics policy Wayne Enterprises has. And since Wayne Enterprises is a publicly traded company that means they're stealing from their shareholders. Second, kidnapping a foreign national is a serious violation of federal and international law and, depending on just how far the Chinese government decided to take things, potentially an act of war. Third, how is giving Batman the power to spy on people is worse than giving him tons and tons of incredibly deadly and destructive Bat-gear and letting him run around town doing whatever he wants with it? It would have made sense if Lucius had been slightly uncomfortable with it all along and the cell phone trick was just the last straw. But throughout both Batman Begins and Dark Knight Lucius expresses precisely zero discomfort with anything Bruce is doing. He seems to trust Bruce completely when he really has no reason to (after all, he'd never even met Bruce before the events of BB). For all Lucius knew, Bruce could have been murdering homeless people in between fighting crime. Who could have stopped him? And how would they even know it was him? Homeless people probably get murdered by the truckload in Gotham City.
      • Actually, this article helps to explain the matter of Batman kidnapping Lau. Turns out to have been okay.
      • Just a small side note, Batman's equipment is not funded by embezzlement. While he may use Wayne Tech resources, Bruce Wayne has PLENTY of money of his own. The profits he makes from the company are his to do with as he wishes, just like your paychecks are.
      • Erm, no. The whole reason Reese could figure out WE was supplying Batman was the huge drain he was putting on the company funding the phone sonar project.
      • And also: Bruce Wayne is the majority shareholder, if not the only shareholder, in Wayne Enterprises; he bought most, if not all of it out, when the company went public through a bunch of trusts and companies — "it's all a bit technical". And Bruce quite explicitly doesn't consider himself a criminal if it's his own or his family's goods he's stealing — indeed that's the justification he states to Ra's al-Ghul in the first movie when he says "I never became one of them [criminals]" — because it's a Wayne Industries shipment that was stolen. It's also apparent that Lucius may not have known Bruce personally, but he knows the background Bruce is from: he knows Alfred, and he worked closely with Bruce's father on the Gotham Public Transport system.
      • Just because Bruce Wayne owns a majority shares of Wayne Enterprises, that does not mean that he owns the company. If Batman uses Wayne Tech resources without paying Wayne enterprises, he is stealing from the shareholders. For example: if, before his death, Steve Jobs had walked into an apple store and walked away with an iPod, he would have been stealing from Apple.
      • Lucius was against it because it was, in fact, a spying program. The potential for misuse was so much greater, and considering the significant investment that Bruce funneled towards the project, plus the clandestine and incredibly illegal nature of the project, and the massive ethics violation...all of that probably pushed Lucius over the edge. It's not hard to conceive that he would lose faith in Bruce. Imagine that he knew the man was a vigilante doing good. Then, out of nowhere, comes the Joker and his over-the-top methods of inducing anarchy. Lucius still supported Bruce when he tried to go conventional. Then, all of a sudden, Bruce stole his technology and implemented it on unsuspecting citizens. At this point, he's probably convinced that Bruce is willing to do anything to catch the Joker, and ultimately any criminal, and that's what violates his ethics. He knows Bruce is doing good, but when he crosses the line to try and stop the bad guy, then he decides that he can't support Batman anymore.
      • It seems less like a reference to the Patriot Act (although it's there) but more a shout out to the Brother Eye stuff from the comics. Batman hasn't had a good track record with massive surveillance.
      • One key thing... Bruce Wayne did this behind Fox's back. That is part of the reason he had a problem with it. He took an existing "toy" and made it much, much more powerful. As for comparing it to his other toys... he could essentially see everything around him. The only thing that could have been even more powerful than seeing all of Gotham City would be predicting the future.
      • Fox realizes that his willingness and ability to create a device capable of spying upon all of Gotham showed that he was on a path that could eventually lead him to being no better than the criminals. Sure, he only wants to spy on people to find the Joker. Suppose that then he decides to use the technology to find the next Joker before he has a chance to do anything. And then eventually, to stop the next mugger before he can do anything. His "resignation" was basically saying "I've given you everything I think you need, but I'm cutting you off now before you can even start to think about taking it any further".
      • Isn't it perfectly possible he won't resign? After all, he said he couldn't keep working for him as long as the sonar system was in place, and the sonar system go boom. Lucius stays?
      • That's the implication from the film. Batman's voiceover says "Some people deserve to have their faith rewarded" as Lucius smilingly watches the sonar system self-destruct. As he walks away, he's putting his suit coat back on; the whole scene screams that Lucius is happy to be back at Wayne Industries, because he knows Bruce Wayne can be trusted to do the right thing.
    • It was more the fact that Bruce crossed between being a vigilante in the shadows and almost became a living god with his omnipotence. Normally no matter how pure and good a person is, something like that will force them to develop a god complex (ie power corrupts, absolute power etc.)
    • Also, there's no way to not abuse a system like that. Even if he was only going to use it to spy on criminals, how does he know the person he's spying on is a criminal until he's already been watching them for awhile? How do you pick out the one person you're after without also noticing what all the people around him are doing? It's the same issues that the wire-tapping and Patriot Act issues in real life brought up: is catching one potentially important phone call worth listening to hundreds or thousands of innocent people's private conversations? Bruce's motives were never in question, but the very nature of such a tool violates the rights of every bystander who just happens to be in its line of sight. And Lucius didn't resign: the instruments exploding at the end was the movie's way of showing us that Bruce agreed with him, and so destroyed the machine to keep Lucius Fox aboard (remember, the ultimatum was that either that machine goes or he goes).
    • What's worrying is the Crazy-Prepared notion here. That device, and these phones were being created and sold for months before the Joker showed up. This is why it's unethical - it wasn't invented just to find somebody as dangerous as the Joker; Batman made it just in case he needed to spy on everybody. Suppose the phone was global? He could spy on the world. Precedent is a dangerous thing.
    • It's a good thing Fox destroyed it. Imagine if it were still around in The Dark Knight Rises: Bane would have had a much easier time identifying the cops not trapped underground.

     Cellphones, Lau extraction 
  • While we're all on about the cellphone trick, Here's a side question: What the heck kind of morons is the Chinese accountant hiring anyway? Lucius walks in, checks his cellphone into the security desk. Then on his way out, Lucius walks out, holding up his phone, despite having checked it at the desk, and the guard /doesn't/ find it the least bit suspicious that he's leaving a high end cellphone behind? Or (and maybe it's just my thoughts) that he's carrying /two/ identical cellphones on him?
    • That one's actually pretty easy. "Sir, you forgot... wait. Oh, you've got your phone... whose phone is this? There's no way that guy would have two perfectly identical cell phones. Ah well. I must be wrong. The right guy will show up." Sure, we can ask why he didn't try to figure out WHY Lucius had his phone, but he probably took the easy route, as humans, being the lazy, slothful creatures we are, are wont to do.
    • Yeah, it's not that far fetched to think that a security guard would shrug his shoulders at something like that. It's pretty mundane. People leave things like cell phones behind all the time.
    • That guard is unlikely to be the only guard who has manned that desk, and Lucius is likely to be far from the only person who has checked a phone in there. On seeing that Lucius has his one, the guard almost certainly assumes that another guard has already returned Lucius's phone to him and that the phone he has is one that another person, who happens to own a similar phone to Lucius, has checked in at another point.

    Why would Batman Kill Dent? 
  • At the end of the film, Gordon's story will be that Batman killed a bunch of crooked cops and mobsters, and needs to be arrested, whereas Harvey Dent is perfectly innocent. Fine so far. But in his story, why did Batman kill Harvey Dent?
    • Dent realized he was killing those people and confronted him about it. Things got heated, Dent gets pushed off a building.
      • Or Gordon could say Dent died in the hospital explosion; nobody knew he was missing except a few cops. Or go one better and say he died of his injuries.
      • "Dent died in the hospital explosion. Yes, he was wearing a suit at the time. How did he land all the way out here? I dunno. Big explosion I guess." Remember, the cops were right behind him. Maybe Gordon could have covered it up if it were just the two of them, but the police showed up right after and so they went with the most obvious story.
      • Yes. It's possible Gotham can get beyond Harvey and the truth will come out eventually, but if they think Batman killed him...

    Why Blame Batman? 
  • Why oh why didn't they just pin Dent's crimes on the Joker or his henchmen? It's not like anyone would notice a few more deaths in the general chaos.
    • Because the general consensus of Gotham's population is that the whole Joker situation was a symptom of a larger problem - namely a masked vigilante instigating some sort of crime arms race. Pinning everything bad on Joker and still holding up Batman as a hero would just make that problem worse and everything would be back to square one. Instead, in order to make Dent's death mean something, the authorities need to stop being in cahoots with Batman, thus making a martyr of Dent and endorsing his legitimate brand of crime-fighting while cracking down on the "real" problem.
    • Not to mention that declaring Batman a killer and a menace would probably help to discourage any more potential Copy-Bats.
    • Because it is still wrong pin a crime on people you know to be innocent even if they are guilty of plenty of other crimes. If you want to sacrifice an innocent, picking yourself is the most noble thing to do.
    • There's also the fact that the Joker is still alive and in custody. Sure, people know the Joker killed many, but he can still deny that he killed THOSE people specifically. In fact, he probably would!
      • Of course he would. He could just about repeat one of his lines from the movie: "Me, kill those people? I was right here!" * Holds up his cuffed hands* "Who did you leave them with, hmmm?"
      • Also on the plus side, if the criminal element in Gotham thinks that Batman killed a bunch of people, they'll be that much more scared of him. Bruce and Gordon probably didn't intend this part, though it would be useful and in fact is a reference to at least one moment in the comics where Batman muses aloud that he's insulted the crook he's interrogating thinks he would leave any evidence after killing someone...
      • And any decent defense attorney would take a look at those murders and figure out the joker didn't do it (not consistent with his sadistic choice style after all) a bit of digging would lead you to Dent. Whether you conclude that Dent really is batman as he said in the ruse or find out he is Two Face is irrelevant at that point as both destroy his reputation and everything he worked for. Batman may indeed blame himself for the deaths so we are actually seeing him (in his own grief stricken mind) finally taking responsibility for his own actions.
      • Plus, if they want to keep the Joker behind bars, the worst thing to do is try to frame him. If a defense attorney found proof of evidence tampering on the part of the police, they could move to get the whole case thrown out.
      • The reason they couldn't blame the Joker is that it's verifiable that he wasn't at the scene of Harvey's death; the cops found him strung up in that building by the river a short time before Batman confronts Harvey. Then again, that doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't pin the other deaths on him.
      • He doesn't have to be at the scene of Harvey's death to be guilty. They could say that it was henchmen working for the Joker who were responsible.
      • A few more deaths can be easily pinned on the Joker with no problem. With people tired of his shit, no one's gonna believe him if he claims he didn't do it.
    • Come to think of it, why couldn't they have pinned Dent's death on the Gotham mobs? Joker hadn't killed all the mob bosses (if only because he didn't have time), and we know the mobs were determined enough to kill the DA to have one of their hit men attempt to whack him in open court. So why couldn't they have claimed that some mob thugs took advantage of the Joker-induced chaos to kidnap Gordon's family and lure both him and Dent into a trap, and Dent died a hero's death while helping Gordon to save them?
    • That story falls apart in seconds. How would random mob thugs go to all the trouble of kidnapping the PC's family? Why didn't Dent go to the authorities after the hospital explosion? Where are these thugs now? Why are these thugs killing cops that worked for the mob? Gordon and Batman are at the warehouse Rachel died at, standing over Dent's body. Cops are about to storm the scene. They have very little time to come up with an explanation and are probably physically and psychologically drained from all they've experienced in the past few days. They need to pin the murders on someone that a.) is a psychologically-likely suspect b.) is capable of taking out mob bosses, cops and DAs c.) is unaccountable for large periods of time d.) is capable of staying out of police custody and/or wouldn't plead innocent (which would start a massive investigation, leading back to Dent and e.) is anonymous enough that a public manhunt is possible w/o having to investigate the actual crime too closely. More passively, they have to find some way to a.)dissuade future vigilantes b.) make Batman feared again and c.) remind the public that vigilantism is not an acceptable form of law enforcement. Blaming Bats is two birds, one stone.

    Why NOT blame Harvey? 
  • Going with the above headscratcher (although worthy of one of it's own), why not just tell the truth about what happened? Harvey, after getting kidnapped, hearing the last moment's of his potential fiancee's life, knowing she was blown to kingdom come, and having his face horribly mutilated to an unbelievable degree just snapped and went after everybody who was involved? Any decent press reporter could put the spin that the white knight that Harvey was died in the explosion and the person who committed the murders after was a different person entirely. If his white knight persona was so important, and he was as genuinely beloved as the movie makes him out to be, then most people would accept this, and the REAL Harvey Dent would live on in their hearts.
    • Because then the Joker wins. He just proved that anyone could become just like him with just one bad day. The entire movie was a fight for Gotham's soul. If Harvey Dent was outed as the one responsible, then it would prove to the citizens of Gotham that even the best of them was capable of becoming a monster and a killer. Everything Harvey had stood for would become a hypocrisy and the city would never survive, BECAUSE THE JOKER WON. No one would ever be able to rely on the goodness of people ever again, because even if another Harvey Dent came along, everyone would know that, deep down, all it would take was one bad day to turn him into a monster. If the people of Gotham start believing that, then the city would be lost; neither Batman or Gordon would be willing to bet the future of Gotham that people would see past what Harvey became, since the entire purpose of Harvey's corruption was to show that literally ANYONE could become a monster after being pushed enough. The people need to believe that Harvey Dent was incorruptible and died fighting evil, in order to continue to believe in the goodness of humanity.
    • On a more direct level, that would also put a hamper on the trial against the mob. To quote The Dark Knight Rises page: "the entire case against the mobsters would likely have collapsed, in the same way if a police officer is arrested for a crime- especially a serious crime- then all previous cases they have worked on would be reviewed. The defense for the mobsters could suggest that all of the evidence Dent gathered was suspect because Dent turned out to be a crazy murderous maniac who held a gun to a small boy's head, so who knows what else he had been up to, or what laws he was willing to break to gather evidence (case in point- holding a gun to a suspect's head to find the Joker, when said suspect was wearing his girlfriend's nametag)." In addition, as pointed out elsewhere on the page, the fact that he killed Maroni, one of the ones being prosecuted, would also lead to complications.

    Just How Did Gordon's Plan Work? 
  • Gordon's "death" and reappearance was very confusing. Would it kill them to give a little more explanation? It could take as little as one sentence — Oh, I was wearing a bulletproof vest, and then they hid me in X place ...
    • Gordon states earlier in the movie that he's playing a particular plot close to the chest. When he comes back from the dead, Dent even mentions that. In fact, he's playing it so close to the chest, that even the audience doesn't know about it. Kind of a meta-joke, if you will. Besides, it's not unreasonable to assume that Gordon would be wearing a bullet-proof vest when he's working a death threat against the mayor. Even if they don't show it.
      • You know what's really close to your chest? A concealed bullet-proof vest, that's what.
    • Those were pretty high-caliber bolt-action rifles. Can anyone identify them? And teflon-coated rounds... this is the Joker. Gordon would need a plate of steel like V used in V for Vendetta.
      • He stole the guns from a salute. Actual rounds are fired during a 3-volley salute, but the guns firing them are typically slightly modified to firing smaller cartridges. The guns used in the movie are M1's which, although they fire a large (7.62mm) round, can be modified to fire something much less deadly, like a .22 rimshot. Considering the fact that the salute is in the middle of a street, and the guns are quite obviously aimed at buildings, it's entirely reasonable to assume that we're talking very small rounds, likely .22s or something similar. Rounds that small are easily stopped by a good vest. And the Joker may be crazy prepared, but its unlikely he had the time to reload the guns, which, for the M1, is not easy to do for someone untrained without firing off all the rounds first (and even then it's hard to do).
      • BLANK rounds are fired in a real 3-volley salute. No bullet actually comes out the barrel. In the movie, Joker replaced the blanks with live rounds.
    • Yeah, but what was stopped the Joker from shooting Gordon in the head?. One shot and the whole "fake my death" plan would have collapsed.
      • It's actually really hard to shoot people in the head. It's a very small target that moves around a lot. Anyone trained to actually hit and kill people with a gun tends to aim for the chest and the heart, which is why they invented bulletproof vests in the first place. Gordon banked on it - and they were right to, since the Joker doesn't tend to go for the headshot.
      • Keep in mind also that Gordon jumps in front of the mayor. The Joker likely wasn't anticipating that, and would therefore be unable to actually shoot Gordon in the head, as he'd have to know exactly where he was going to be.
      • The Joker wasn't aiming for Gordon. He was aiming for the Mayor. Joker's many things, but you need to be bloody Bullseye if you want to A. change targets, B. Aim for the head, and C. do both of the above in the, what, quarter of a second between turning and pulling the trigger?
      • Also note, that Stephens (one of the few men in Gordon's unit who is not corrupt at all) is the one who checked Gordon's pulse. During the mass chaos that followed, Stephens probably commandeered whatever ambulance got Gordon in a similar matter to how Dent commandeered the ambulance with Thomas Schiff, and directed the drivers to take Gordon to a safehouse where he could lie low to recuperate.

    Gordon's Promotion 
  • Is it even possible for a police officer to be promoted to Commissioner straight from the rank of Lieutenant? The Wire made a big deal of the number of ranks there were (detective -> sergeant -> lieutenant -> captain -> major -> colonel), and IIRC you had to spend a certain minimum length of time at each level before promotion.
    • Commissioner is a politically-appointed position, so they could be anyone the Mayor felt was appropriate. Naturally, you'd want to pick someone at the highest level of command to avoid annoying your other superior officers. But given how dangerous the Commissioner's job has become in Gotham, and his collar of Joker, they'd wouldn't be too upset.
      • "I think that Commissioner is a politically-appointed position": It depends on city and state law. Some jurisdictions elect a Commissioner (or the equivalent), others are appointed, and others are a meritocracy. But since Gotham was modeled primarily on New York, and the NYPD has their Commissioner appointed by the Mayor, it's reasonable to assume that the GCPD would also be an appointed position.
      • It works however the movie says it works. If he goes from Lieutenant to Commissioner because they say so, then that's what happens.
      • In pretty much every US State, you have multiple law enforcement agencies, but they all work roughly similarly. Police departments have their top boss as a Police Chief (if small) or Commissioner (if large). This is a political appointment, either by the mayor or the city council. Depending on how the city by-laws are written, there may be no minimum rank required (or even any LE experience at all). Sheriff's departments have the Sheriff (with Assistant Sheriffs in large jurisdictions). The head sheriff is usually an elected position. State Police/Dept of Public Safety/Etc. usually have a Director position at the top (but names are more widely varied) and it is a political appointment as well. As an example, Superintendent William Evans was appointed the commissioner job for the Boston Police Department because of his handling of the Boston marathon bombing even though he was not the longest serving Superintendent at the time. In short, it can be as much skill based as rank or time in position.
      • It's been set up since long before the movie started. It's the backdrop of the whole movie — Gordon has his special case unit, embattled and officially disapproved of by his superiors and struggling for cash, using all kinds of hardcore unorthodox methods to try to cut through the red tape, and all of a sudden he achieves an amazing, dramatic success. A hugely heroic success, one that put his own safety at tremendous personal risk, a success that seems to have put away one of the most terrifying villains Gotham's ever known. As the mayor says, there's really no argument about it. It would be more surprising if the mayor didn't make Gordon Commissioner in the wake of such an event.
      • Keep in mind there's a long running subtext going back to the first movie that the only reason Gordon hasn't risen through the ranks faster, despite his obvious ability and determination, is that he won't play ball with the corrupt politics of the department. And everyone knows it.
      • Gordon became Commissioner out of political necessity. He took down a psycho that had killed numerous people and terrorized Gotham. He'd be a hero to the Gotham people, and they'd probably be calling for his promotion. The mayor wouldn't have had a choice if he wanted to keep his job. He'd have to cave in to public pressure.

    Reese - One Loose End? 
  • That accountant, Coleman Reese, still knows that Batman is actually Bruce Wayne and has evidence that proves it. With the Joker out of the picture, what's stopping Reese from A) trying to blackmail Bruce Wayne again, or B) going on TV again? For that matter, wouldn't the police be demanding that Reese turn everything over to them? Batman is now wanted for multiple murders, several of them cops, after all.
    • Well Bruce did save his life by crashing his Lamborghini into a would-be assassin's truck, and they exchanged that look... that would stop him from revealing the secret for publicity's sake (especially since he was only going to once Joker escalated things so far).
      • Against police pressure, he could just say, "I was wrong." Or something to that effect. Police do not have the ability to force a witness to testify, only to compel them, and there are a lot of limits to that pressure.
    • Another thing on that note: Reese finds the blueprint, recognizes it as the Batmobile and gets the idea to use it for blackmail. Why didn't whoever worked on designing and constructing the Batmobile in the first place get the same idea? Keep in mind that it was originally not designed for Batman, but as a private venture for the military, so it was not like they got to handpick ones they knew would never talk.
      • Because there's no clear pictures of the Batmobile. Think about it: how many people have actually seen the Tumbler on TV? Clearly? The one time, in the first movie, it's seen from above in a news chopper pointing a camera almost directly down. That's not exactly a good profile shot. No one's seen it well enough to know what it looks like. End of story, and in fact true for most/all of Batman's gear.
      • Also as someone who has worked on fabricating metal (it stands to figure a lot of the work was done by separate divisions, and maybe even outside contractors, and it was probably all custom) after a while it all starts to run together in your mind, and that was just a machine shop at a small Halliburton outfit. A major R&D firm like Wayne Enterprises where you're building prototypes and moving rapidly from project to project (cause half that stuff never gets picked up after the prototype stage, that's the nature of R&D) it's even worse. Most of the Tumbler probably wasn't even built by hand anyway. Lucius designed it, so that's sewed up. It also would be a simple matter to say the Tumbler was stolen, sold into private hands or claim that your applied sciences division fell victim to corporate espionage. Who is to say the Tumbler Bruce test drives is the same one he turns into the Batmobile? He may have had another built to increase plausible deniability.
    • Why doesn't Reese blackmail Batman? Because he's one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in the world who also spends his night beating criminals to a pulp. Oh, and apparently, he now has abandoned his "no-killing" rule, according to the police, giving Reese even less of a reason for wanting to blackmail Batman now.
    • For that matter, why hasn't anyone else put two and two together? An accountant from Wayne Enterprises (with that young, athletically fit majority owner possessing a Dark and Troubled Past) says he can reveal the Batman's identity (ie, the superhero with all that high dollar equipment, including a friggin TANK). Granted, the evidence may not point * directly* to Bruce Wayne, but there's not a lot of other names on that list to choose from.
      • Reese didn't work for Wayne Enterprises, he worked for an independent firm who was called in to look at Lao's books for the merger (not an uncommon practice in corporate mergers). Note Fox's line: "Let me get this straight: You think that your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands. And your plan is to blackmail this person? Good luck." "Client" not "boss".
      • It's not shown as much in the movies for time's sake, but the comics go to great length to show how Bruce crafts his public persona: he goes to a lot of trouble to appear as one of the "idle rich". In real world terms...could you ever imagine Paris Hilton as Batman?
      • Enough was shown in both movies to indicate that Bruce was a bit of an Upper-Class Twit. It's very likely that no one would have believed him. His only proof seemed to be the Tumbler and he gave those blue prints to Fox. What is he going to say now, "Oh, I saw blueprints for the Batmobile at Wayne Enterprises but they're gone now... but anyway, that rich jerk who burned down his own house is really the Batman."
    • Something just occurred to me: would Reese have told anyone at GCN beforehand what he knew, or offer up any evidence? Or do they just let anyone who claims to know Batman's secret identity on as a guest spot? Seems like there should be at least a few GCN executives who know or something...
      • In the middle of a city-wide crisis, no doubt with constant 24-hour coverage and the demands of the modern media machine to get something, anything on air to fill that slot and bring in those ratings, the primary concern on the minds of the executives involved was less "we'd better get some form of verification and proof this guy knows what he's talking about" and more "this guy can win us the ratings war? Why is he not on the air ten minutes ago?!"
    • Perhaps it's nothing more complicated than simple gratitude? Bruce Wayne did save Reese's life with plenty of risk of his own, even though he had every reason to be willing to let Reese die in order to protect his secret. That's a pretty noble thing to do, and you'd have to be a special kind of jerk to simply brush that aside and screw over the guy you owe your life to for nothing more than publicity or money. Under those circumstances, keeping schtum about the guy's night habits is about the least you can do in thanks. It could just be a subtle way of reinforcing the "not everyone's a humongous bastard" part of the film.
      • Furthermore, on discovering Batman's secret identity, Coleman Reese's first impulse was to try and blackmail Bruce Wayne. On discovering that Coleman Reese's life was in danger, Bruce Wayne's first impulse was to throw himself into danger to save the other man's life. On realising that, Coleman Reese almost certainly feels like a worthless, inadequate piece of shit already. Want to know the best way to compound that feeling of being a worthless, inadequate piece of shit? Continue to try and fuck over the man who not only saved your life but has clearly demonstrated himself to be a much better man than you'll likely ever be. Either Coleman Reese is a shameless sociopath, or he's going to keep his mouth shut.
    • There's still enough plausible deniability. Reese never found concrete proof that Bruce Wayne is Batman, just that Batman secretly uses resources from Wayne Enterprises. For all he knows, Bruce is just really good friends with Batman, the same way Peter Parker pretends to be friends with Spider-Man to justify how he always gets great photos of him in action.
      • Not to mention Fox has surely had time to cook up evidence that the Tumbler was stolen a while back, possibly by one of the bad guys Batman put away shortly before the Batmobile's debut appearance. It's hardly Wayne's fault if his missing property got repurposed by some weirdo vigilante who'd claimed it as the 'spoils of war', now is it?
    • Considering how close Reese came to getting killed because he'd claimed to know Batman's identity in TDK, he'd probably be so scared of some other criminal trying to torture it out of him that he's since proclaimed "Damn, I was so sure it was Dent; guess I was wrong, my bad..." on national television.
    • If he has any sense at all (which is debatable considering his actions) Reese is long gone by the time the news breaks about Batman "murdering" Dent. And as mentioned above, Batman is now supposedly willing to kill, so that's extra incentive for Reese to hightail it to someplace quiet and keep his mouth shut.

    And Why'd He Think Wayne Was Batman? 
  • Similarly, how/why did Reese immediately jump to the suspicion that Bruce Wayne himself was the Batman? Wouldn't it have made more sense that Wayne was merely employing/funding him? Just curious what other tropers thought of this.
    • If someone is misappropriating Wayne technology to facilitate The Goddamn Batman one could probably count on one hand the people with the power to cover it up: Fox and Wayne. Fox is far too old to be Batman, as well as a different race. Wayne, once you look at all the other evidence, is the only one who makes sense.
    • Well, certainly it was possible he was just funding the Bat, but in any case he had a link between Wayne and Batman. He might not have realized it was Wayne himself until Fox noted it.
    • Reese only said that Batman gets his equipment from Wayne R&D; it was Fox who all but stated it was Bruce.
    • Because a young, athletic man in the prime of his life with famously murdered parents and a huge decade-long hole in his past where he practically disappeared off the planet isn't likely to steal vast amounts of their own money and tech to start up a vigilante just to turn around and make someone else the vigilante.
  • He also saw Wayne falling asleep during a board meeting, so he made the connection that Bruce was sleepless because of his night activities as Batman.

    Why did the cops leave facepaint on Jokes and fail to find the bomb? 
  • This one was the most annoying in the movie. The police have the Joker in custody - relieve him of all his inventory, are dying to find out who he is - and yet they leave his face-paint on? Surely the first thing they would do would be to remove it and photograph his face!
    • Its the middle of the night and thirty cops were just either killed or wounded in action. Procedure is going to suffer slightly in that kind of situation.
    • It was only a holding cell he'd been put in. Between that and locking up his small army of goons, they didn't really have time to take his makeup off. They had only just caught him. Plus, trying to take his makeup off would probably have been pretty dangerous, like trying to give dental treatment to Hannibal Lecter. There is a time and a place and security details for all that. Taking away his weapons and getting his prints is standard procedure (and common sense); removing makeup is not. But they would have gotten round to it, maybe after mugshots.
      • It bugs me, though, they didn't catch, yanno, THAT, on the other goon.
      • Catch it with what, an X-ray?
      • A hideous, fresh, operation scar should arouse some suspicion. Especially when the guy starts moaning and groaning about stomach pains. And yes, x-ray.
      • CSI units would have X-ray machines, but not ordinary police precincts. They neither have the room, nor the technicians, nor the need, nor the money to house one.
      • And unless it's standard procedure to strip rounded up goons, they were never going to see the scar in the first place.
      • Yep, all of these guys were just in holding. They weren't formally charged yet.
    • They probably wouldn't be able to identify him even if they saw his face.
    • If you pay attention in the "maybe you don't understand him" scene in the makeshift Batcave between Bruce and Alfred, the computers behind them are running The Joker's videos through extensive facial-recognition software, presumably through every database known to man and it was coming up empty. Simply washing the guy's face and taking a mug shot wouldn't have given any better result.

  • When he's in custody why does the Joker still have his makeup on? In the Nolanverse Joker's face isn't chemically bleached like in most other versions, he is specifically stated to be wearing makeup and we see him without it in a scene. During the booking process wouldn't they take the makeup off in order to take accurate booking photos?
    • Before they could get to taking a mugshot of him, they got the information that Harvey and Rachel were missing, and instead they opted postponing going through with it in order to interrogate him as to their whereabouts.
    • Plus they had literally just finished taking him to the station after having all of their resources stretched to the near-breaking point, the simple answer is that they hadn't gotten to the booking process yet because they had to secure all of his goons, go over all his weapons, and make sure they had every base covered before going through the procedures since the slightest slip-up would be seized by the mob's lawyers.

  • Why didn't they wash the Joker's face at the police station? Isn't it the first reasonable step towards identifying him?
    • Perhaps he isn't wearing makeup, but his face is tattooed.
    • He isn't tattooed (you see him without the makeup for a split second after he shoots Gordon, and you can see the sweat making the makeup run in some shots), and washing his face isn't going to help ID him unless someone recognizes his face personally.
    • The man has a huge lopsided Glasgow Smile cut into both cheeks. With or without the whiteface, picking him out of a lineup is unlikely to be difficult.

    Batman and Gordon only ones around to save Rach and Harv? 
  • The Joker's "which one will you save" scenario between Rachel and Dent relied on Batman being the only one who could make it there in time to rescue them. Doesn't Gotham's police department have any officers out on patrol that they could radio?
    • It was most likely set up so that entering one building would blow up the other.
    • After every cop in Gotham was up all day working extra security on the Mayor? They'd be running a skeleton shift.
      • It was probably the fact that the Joker knew only Batman would reach either one of them. After all, Batman got there in enough time to save Dent (mostly), but the police only got to Rachel's location with a few seconds to spare before the place went up. Joker is just Crazy-Prepared enough to know how fast the Batmobile goes.
      • The Joker had been killing cops left, right, and center, and Dent wasn't very popular amongst the Gotham PD. If a call came over the radio to check out an address that the Joker had given, they wouldn't be in much of a hurry.
    • Also, the police don't know what's in the buildings, or have any idea how long they've got, or even if the Joker is actually telling them the truth. In that kind of situation, they would presumably establish a perimeter, wait for SWAT to arrive, and storm the building; after all, for all they know, the Joker could have goons inside waiting to ambush them, rigged traps for the cops/Batman, etc.

    Is violence the only way to deal with SWAT? 
  • When Batman entered the Joker's building and discovered that the clown-henchmen and hostages were disguised as each other, he proceeded to beat up the SWAT cops to prevent them from killing hostages. The original tripwire to save the hostages from sniper fire was probably necessary, but after that, he'd already proven he had Gordon's cell number, so why didn't he just call and tell him about the switch?
    • Because by the time Gordon answered and Batman explained the situation to him, the SWAT team may have started shooting civilians by mistake. Furthermore, Gordon's heard from Harvey by that point, so there's no guarantee he'd still be there and in easy contact with the other officers.
      • Because there was no time to explain: SWAT teams are trained to hit a location as simultaneously and as quickly as possible. Batman simply would probably run out of time if he tried to go through the chain of command. In fact, despite his efforts, he's still barely fast enough to take them all down and get them to rethink shooting the hostages. And he has to blow up part of the building to do it. By the time Gordon passed this information down the chain of command, a lot of people would've been dead.
      • Thing is, in at least most hostage rescue teams, it is standard procedure to disarm, secure and detain everyone they find, then after the scene is secure, work out who's a hostage and who's not. (How does this work when the hostages have guns taped to their hands, tape over their mouths and a mask on their faces? More flashbangs?) It's also normally done in cases where a hostage taker in civilian clothing drops/hides their weapons during a hostage rescue.
      • Considering the hijinks the Joker had gotten up to over the past few days/weeks, it wouldn't be surprising if the rank-and-file cops from the SWAT teams down to beat cops had decided in response to the number of their own fellow officers who had been killed by the Joker in the past week or so, to adapt a "shoot first, ask questions later" policy for Joker situations.
    • Ok, the above makes sense, but he still could have called Gordon and explained the situation while beating up on the cops. He's Batman, he can fight and talk at the same time. Telling Gordon or someone about the switcheroo instead of letting them figure it out on their own could have saved him a lot of time and effort.
      • It's already been pointed out that Batman was going flat-out just to save people the way he did.
    • Why the hell didn't the hostages just LIE DOWN with their guns under their bodies? Especially when Bats started beating up the henchmen, who in turn started to ignore the hostages they were presumably keeping from doing this and started battering Bats...
      • Because people in terrifying situations aren't inclined to think rationally. In plane crashes, there have been instances where people survived the initial crash only to perish in the fire caused by spilled jet fuel because they can't process the step of unbuckling their seatbelt (and couldn't remember the safety video instructions). What chance have they got of creating and enacting such a complex line of reasoning? Half of military training is purely so that in stressful situations you can still think clearly.
      • Also, the henchmen might have threatened to shoot them if they tried such a thing.
  • In the fight in the construction site, did Batman really have to beat up every single SWAT officer present? No simpler, non-violent way like telling them which hostages are which?
    • They were breaching a room with armed "suspects." They would not have stopped to listen to Batman.
    • He tied them up and hung them from the side of the building. That was probably the most "non-violent" way he could have stopped them, and despite how it sounds describing it, it was a pretty harmless ordeal.
    • He was also pressed for time. He had to stop the SWAT team from accidentally killing the hostages, stop the bad guys from ambushing the SWAT team and confront the Joker once and for all, and all before either boat could blow the other up, or the Joker blew them up anyways. No time to get on a radio and go through the chain of command.

    What's a crippling leg injury to Sal Maroni? 
  • When Batman drops Maroni off the building, we hear at least one of Maroni's legs break. And yet, somehow, just a couple days later he's walking with a cane when Two-Face offs him. The film doesn't have a very concrete timeline, but it seems that it takes place over a week or so, tops — and that's not enough time to heal a broken bone.
    • We also never see his bare legs. Assuming one leg is broken (reasonable), Maroni might just have a walking cast on it, using the cane to keep pressure off of it. Your timeline isn't off, but it's not unbelievable at all. People with broken legs, especially shin bones, can be walking the same day they broke it, although that's usually a bad idea.
    • The mistake may be in assuming the leg was broken at all. For one, that fall could have caused any number of injuries. For two, it could have broken a number of other bones or dislocated another joint. For three, it's not like it was a compound fracture if it was a broken bone. For four, he probably wanted to get his shit together and get out of the Joker's city ASAP and wasn't caring about the consequences of walking.

    HOW can the Joker be so Crazy Prepared? 
  • How on EARTH was Joker supposed to have managed to rig an entire hospital to be completely demolished whilst it was still in use? That sort of total demolition would take very rigorous planning, and weeks of careful preparation by trained professionals who would have to drill large holes into numerous support beams etc in order to make the building actually fall down. He couldn't have done it unnoticed...
    • Well, you do make good points but professionals worry about nearby people getting hurt. The Joker, not so much...
    • He probably paid people to do it. The hired goons he selects for the bank robbery are seen talking about how Joker is really good at planning things. So Joker makes off with the bank money and uses some of it to pay people to secretly rig explosives in the hospital, then has them killed later on.
    • The Joker's entire schtick in the movie is that he is a ridiculous genius when it comes to planning. Which is ironic, considering his speech to Harvey where he says he's an agent of chaos who goes entirely against the plan in the first place. But again, he is the Joker.
      • Not really ironic. That speech was clearly designed to push Dent over the edge. His speech is "all part of the plan."
      • Well, specifically, his schtick is knowing "the plan". You know, the one everyone ELSE has? He sees it, he predicts it easily, and he RUINS it. Because your pain and frustration amuse him. Life never goes according to plan. Like the speech. "If I say some soldiers are going to die, no one cares. But I threaten one little mayor... SUDDENLY EVERYONE LOOSES THEIR MINDS!!!" The Plan isn't threatening... even when the plan is horrifying.

  • Let's see - what EXACTLY did the Joker do? Since there's no way he could have planned that meticulously, we'll assume he was telling the truth about making things up as he went. the time he's drawn "Batman" into the open, he's got at least two abandoned warehouses filled with explosives never know when warehouses filled with explosives might come in handy! (The cell phone bomb is realistic enough as a contingency.) So, while the police were occupied, he kidnapped Rachel because (if both he and Batman survived the battle), having Rachel in a room full of explosives might be a good idea. Then he saw a golden opportunity to kidnap Harvey (phenomenally stupid guards, perhaps?) and set up the notorious Sadistic Choice. The rest seems like typical Joker fare, but that whole bit toward the middle...what?!
    • "There's no way he could have planned that meticulously." Says who? It was quite obvious that the Joker set up the entire freeway gambit to get him arrested and into the police station so he could get Lau out and then burn him, the Chechen, and half the mob's money in one go. Of course, there's no rational reason for him to do any of this, but that's because he's the Joker.
      • He planned not to corrupt Batman into killing him?
      • If Batman kills the Joker, then he wins. If Batman doesn't kill the Joker, he continues his plan to grab Lao and blow up the MCU - which means he wins. Xanatos Gambit.
    • "Phenomenally stupid guards, perhaps?" No, just Wuertz handing Dent over to the Joker's goons. Which is the whole reason Harvey shot him later on.
    • His goal was to get Batman to kill him, thus proving that everyone is corruptible. And that wasn't a plan. It was a goal. He didn't have a plan to get to that goal. He did have explosives rigged in the warehouses, the hospital, and the ferries, just in case he needed them. He didn't know when he was going to use them, just that he would probably need them. As for the freeway chase, once again, his goal was for Batman to kill him. If he was captured, he had the bomb planted in the thug and had his goons capture Dent and Rachel, just in case. And Dent was just a contingency, in case he couldn't corrupt Batman. He didn't plan this. He just saw a golden opportunity, seeing as how Dent's girlfriend was just killed and half his face was burnt off.
      • How many buildings and public structures are sitting with explosives in/on/under them, that the Joker rigged up but didn't use?
      • The Joker had plans - specifically, plans so well laid that even his contingencies are a near total victory for him. The Sadistic Choice was his plan for if the plan to take out Dent failed. When he realized Dent wasn't Batman, he probably changed the nature of the choice. It's interesting to consider who would have been in Harvey's place if Joker still thought Dent was Batman. Basically, Joker makes very effective plans at a broad level, and changes them for the facts on the ground; more importantly, he almost never assumes his own success on a single plan.

  • How could The Joker time the two bombs set to kill Rachel and Harvey Dent so perfectly? He couldn't have known when exactly Batman was gonna come to interrogate him, how long the interrogation would take, what's the maximum speed of the Batbike, etc. All it would've taken was for Batman to come to interrogate him five minutes later, or the Batbike to get stuck in traffic, and The Joker's gag of telling Batman the wrong address would've been irrelevant.
    • That wouldn't have mattered to the Joker, because then it would've meant that Batman and the cops failed to do both.
    • And Joker didn't even know the Batpod had existed until an hour ago. How then could he know its speed?
    • The Joker is about chaos. He wasn't 'timing' anything. The Joker was being honest when he said he's "not a schemer." He doesn't make plans, he just screws up other people's plans. My evidence for this is his use of the glass shard to take Stephens hostage. How could he know he'd have access to a shard of glass? He was improvising the whole time. The whole situation at the MCU was just half Indy Ploy, half Xanatos Gambit. All he knew going in was that he did in fact have both Harvey and Rachel tied up, with a bomb set to blow them both up. If Batman never shows up, he sends cops after both of them, further reducing the amount of cops in the building he'd have to deal with when breaking Lau out. If he doesn't think he can set off his bomb, he just uses his hostages to force the police to let him go (assuming they don't just shoot him). When Batman showed up, he decided to use his hostages to get rid of the Bat and the cops. He switched the addresses so that whatever choice Batman made would be wrong; and if Batman had showed up too late to save Harvey, that would have been fine. If he'd saved just Rachel, that wouldn't make a difference. If he'd saved them both, that wouldn't have mattered much to him either. The only thing he needed to do was get out of jail with Lau, and even then he wouldn't have cared too much if the explosion had just killed Lau. Or himself. Or both. And if he didn't get his "phone call," he'd probably have one of his thugs call the station. The point is: the Joker didn't have a meticulous plan to turn Harvey into Two-Face; he just wanted to cause as much chaos as possible and the whole situation was simply him seizing opportunities to do so.
    • Given the corrupt cops around, it's likely the Joker had a paid cop or a hired henchman watching out for when Batman got on his bike and then set the timer accordingly.
    • It's simpler than you guys are making it out to be. The Joker knows where Central Booking is, and he knows where his goons are going to stash Rachel and Harvey. He can work out with Google Maps how long it would take the cops to get from the station to Rachel's address, and then shave a minute off. He also knows that either Batman or Gordon and likely both are going to come in and start Perp Sweating him immediately once they learned that Harvey and Rachel were kidnapped, and he can control when they learn that information. Whether or not Batman succeeds in rescuing Dent is immaterial. If Batman fails, Dent dies horribly and future white knights are intimidated. If Batman saves Dent, Rachel still dies and Dent is broken.
      • You've actually rendered it more complicated than some of the above answers, but ultimately yes: the Joker wins and gets what he wants either way.

    So you're Batman? Where's your batarangs? 
  • So when Dent confesses to being Batman, why does nobody ask for proof? Especially given that they've already established the presence of Batman impostors who had more proof than him.
    • Well it's not like he'd been convicted and sentenced, or even charged. A confession is evidence enough to make an arrest, and then you investigate (and interview the suspect) to find the evidence. Otherwise it would be like "Yep, that confession sounds pretty solid - let's arrest you now! Oh, you've gone..."
    • Besides which, isn't it pretty much established that Dent and the cops are working together to try and trap the Joker? It was all part of the bait.
    • There's also the courtroom scene where Dent casually slaps a loaded gun aside and knocks out his would-be assassin with a witty quip, which isn't exactly what you'd expect even from a crusading district attorney. And then the party scene, where Dent disappears and then Batman shows up and saves everybody, and then Batman disappears and Dent re-appears. Sure, we know that its because Bruce locked Dent in the closet, but they didn't. If they'd wanted to, the GCPD could probably have established enough probable cause based on circumstantial evidence to hold Harvey for questioning even if he hadn't confessed.
      • In fact, Joker himself mentioned that for a while, he thought Dent was Batman.

    Is Maroni still alive? 
  • Why does everyone assume that Maroni died in the car with the Driver. Dent was in the car too, and he walked out without a scratch. So, yeah, seatbelt or not, he should have survived that too.
    • "Five people dead, two of them cops." Count the two Maroni goons, and you've only got one other person in the movie Dent could have killed. And if Maroni did survive the wreck, Dent probably finished him off.
    • Seatbelt. Rollover.

    What could Gambol's injury be? 
  • When Joker first relates his little scar-story, holding one of the bosses at knifepoint, he finishes by slicing his face open offscreen. Guy falls down and is implied dead. To my mind, a Glasgow grin (well, only part of one) would hurt like a bitch and a half, but it wouldn't kill you . . . right? It happened in Pan's Labyrinth, IIRC, and the victim was uninjured enough not only to talk but to sew it back up himself.
    • It wouldn't kill you right out, but it'd certainly be horrifying/bleed a whole ton- and though the guy collapsed, the Joker finished him off as well rather than just leaving him with the half-cut-open face. And if you scream, it just tears your face open wider. Such fun.
    • And, of course, there's also the possibility that he choked on his own blood.
    • You mentioned, it happens offscreen, so we don't see the nature of the cut. It'd be just like the Joker to act like he was about to inflict one injury and instead inflict another.
    • There's no actual proof that the Joker gave him a Glasgow grin; for all we know, he could've just stabbed the guy in the neck or did a variation on the magic trick...
    • It could be that he just passed out from the fact that he just got his face cut open. Then the Joker could deal with him at his leisure while he was unconscious.
    • Maybe Joker just shot him after asking him "Why so serious?". Well, the gun is not in plain sight, but maybe he had a new kind of "Flower Trick"...
    • Right after he cuts the guy's face open, Joker smashes the pool cue and holds his "tryouts." Even if the guy survived the face scar, he was probably bludgeoned to death by his former lieutenants.
      • No, the broken cue was so that those former lieutenants would stab each other. He was making them either kill each other, or all die.
      • Was it revealed who even 'won'?
      • The winner could have just as easily been forced to finish off his old boss as part of the "application process."
      • Possibly, but that's probably just a bit too speculative.
      • Yes, it is. Think of it as the flip side of the Law of Conservation of Detail : What you see is what you get. The Joker killed him, and made his boys fight it out. No need to make it any more complicated than that.
    • There is an artery on the lower side of your lip- a Glasgow Grin avoids it, but if you cut downwards then you can slice it and the victim can bleed to death.
    • After Joker says "Why So Serious?" for the last time there's a clear 2-second gap before Gambol is dead. Plenty of time to take the blade out and just stab him in the head.

    I don't use guns. My bike on the other hand... 
  • If Batman doesn't use guns, what are on the front of his bike/tank? (not the wire harpoons, the things blowing cars up)
    • No one said Batman didn't use guns. They said Batman didn't kill.
    • Sub-question: Who is in the cars he blows up? We see a couple kids in the backseat watching him, so how does Batman know he's destroying an unoccupied car, especially at the speeds he's going?
      • Those cars are parked off to the side, while the kids are in a car that's in traffic on the road. Of course, this doesn't necessarily preclude someone from being in one of the cars he blew up, but presumably he was at least looking for that.
      • Actually, although it's never stated outright, Batman doesn't use guns. This is what's behind his dismantling of the clowns shotgun (instead of salvage), and use of batarangs instead of guns. It's also how Scarecrow is able to tell the fake Batmen are just that: his line "That's not him." is delivered immediately when fake batman raises his gun. That he sticks to this rule in every other instance makes the Tumbler-guns that much more irritating.
      • He says "That's not him" in response to the fact that there's more than one "Batman," the relative lack of professionalism of the attack, and the clear use of lethal force; when the Tumbler arrives his reaction is "That's more like it." And when the Tumbler starts firing its guns, what's his reaction? He sure as hell doesn't say "Oh, wait, that's a gun. This isn't Batman after all." Its quite clear that the presence of multiple attackers who wish to use lethal force and the lack of high-tech gadgetry is what tips the Scarecrow off that these guys aren't the real Batman, not the mere fact that they're using guns.
    • Its called "intimidation." See the screen on the Tumbler. There's not a whole lot you can do with a man-portable firearm that doesn't involve killing people, but a vehicle-mounted weapons system programmed to only direct fire at the environment is another instance entirely. Besides, how is he supposed to take down other vehicles? Punching them?
      • The only thing the Tumbler and Bat-cycle guns are used for is property destruction. They're never used against human targets.
    • Batman hates guns because a gun killed his parents. Notice that he doesn't expand this to "weapons" in a general sense. The bike-mounted guns are very different from regular guns, so it may be that he's still uncomfortable with them but he doesn't see them as direct analogue to the thing that killed his parents.

    Scarecrow's fallen onto tough times... 
  • Why the hell was the Scarecrow treated like such a pathetic throwaway villain, getting arrested at the start of the movie? This version of Professor Crane is pretty limp-he gets nailed right off the bat, so to speak, and he doesn't even have a costume. He's just a glorified drug dealer who wears a burlap sack on his head. Where's the straw hat? Where are the ragged clothes? Where's the...well, the Scarecrow?
    • Let's just say that all hell given to him by Batman in the first movie had got him. Or maybe he just think that getting arrested is fine; he could get out in fashionable way. He's not that crazy, after all.
    • Consider that without Ra's Al Ghul and the League of Shadows he has no access to the blue flowers that are the basis of his fear-gas, and that even he mentioned in Batman Begins that the mask itself isn't that scary without it, and that his license to practice was presumably revoked hard after his part in the events of BB became common knowledge, and that he's probably a wanted fugitive, becoming a drug-dealer doesn't seem tremendously far-fetched.
    • It's All There in the Manual. In the DVD extras, there are several episodes of the Gotham News (with Mike Engel). One of the stories involves a teen that took fear toxin laced ecstasy. It's speculated that the Scarecrow is in fact Not Quite Dead after the Narrows disaster and has linked up with drug dealers.
    • The real reason, of course, is that the actor wasn't interested in coming back for a major role, and Nolan presumably decided that it was better to have him be arrested than to just ignore it entirely.
    • He was continuing his sadistic fear-drug experiments, and using the Gotham drug market to both finance his work and to sucker unwitting test subjects into trying out his new formulas. The Chechen complained at the beginning that his drugs have horrific effects on people, and that the only reason they're working with him is because because Batman's driven away their other sources.
    • It's not like Scarecrow lost out much. He got into Bane's good graces, and it's quite likely he's still at large after Bane's siege was ended.

    How can a fish tank still receive power after a cut? 
  • When Batman takes down Lau in Hong Kong, he cuts the power to the building. However, the glass fish tank is still clearly lit. Why? If he cut the power, why is the fish tank clearly lit?
    • Battery back up?
    • The fish tank probably was locally powered. It looked like the cell-phone EMP device simply cut power from the ground up; anything powered by batteries or emergency power past the lower levels would have worked just fine.
      • Also, considering that there was an entire room in the building that still had power and numerous lights were also still on, the question really shouldn't be why the fish tank is still lit.
      • Guys, Occam's razor. It's obviously full of electric eels.
      • This would be why the hovercraft is fine, yes?

    Two Face's... face is biologically unsound. 
  • Harvey's crazy-ass burnt face. And the fact his left eyeball doesn't have an eyelid. Biologically, it's IMPOSSIBLE.
    • The cans surrounding Harvey might have been filled with a version of the Joker toxin, this time a flammable sealant. After burning away part of Harvey's face, it froze it in the current position, keeping the eye in place. As long as you didn't set the person on fire first, it could conceivable be used to permanently set a person's face in a smiling position. For bonus upsetting-Batman points, the Joker's plan would cause whoever Batman wanted to save to have been found not only burnt, but frozen in a position showing (s)he knew Batman failed to save them.
    • How is it that Two-Face is perfectly capable of forming "m", and "p" sounds when half his lips are missing and booze visibly dribbles through the bottom of his mouth? "M" might slide, but for "P", you need an air tight chamber to create the sound. In his other incarnations he always still had lips, albeit deformed ones, and a full inner-mouth. As far as the eyeball goes, it may stay in (although with difficulty), but how does it stay lubricated enough to not be a shriveled husk, much less useable and moving.
    • Ah, but isn't there a story about how Nolan wanted quite realistic burns on Two-Face (and possibly realistic post-burn pronunciation although that could easily become narmy or unwittingly comical) but that they freaked out test audiences too much, or that the potential for freak-out was deemed to high..? Executive Meddling and/or Real Life Writes the Plot.
      • The non-dryed-up eye is actually an Aluminum Christmas Tree, Check out this fellow here: Chase No-Face, a cat who was hit by a car and disfigured, losing his nose and eyelids in the process. He's all healed now, and without the eyelids his owner merely gives him eyedrops twice a day to keep them moist. That's probably what Harvey and the doctors at the hospital were doing and he simply took the bottle with him when he left the place.
      • Cat eyes aren't the same as human eyes. Cats don't need to blink anywhere near as often as humans do. Unless he was constantly applying those eyedrops, which he clearly isn't, it isn't really possible for a human.
    • Biologically unsound or not, it's the nature of the character; the whole point is that he's had half his face burned off. It's, well, why he's called "Two-Face" to begin with. It's symbolic and thematic as much as intended to be realistic. Change that, and you're changing a vital part of what people know about the character and risking pissing off a huge chunk of the viewing audience. So just go with it, remember that he's still a comic book character in a comic book movie, and apply hefty doses of Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

    I won't kill you. But I might accidentally knock you off a building to your death. 
  • How come Batman adamantly states that he will never kill, a point which is made in both movies more than once, always seeming to imply that no matter what, he will stick to it...and then at the end of The Dark Knight...he goes and kills Two Face? Of all reasons to kill someone, it was as noble as you could get, trying to save Gordon's son, and yes, you can argue that in the heat of the moment, he may not have been thinking straight, but it still comes down to the fact that he killed a man and apparently doesn't seem to mind that much. He's more concerned about preserving Harvey's reputation than he is about the fact that ultimately, the Joker was right. He did end up breaking his one rule.
    • It was accidental. You think he wanted to kill Two-Face? He tackled him and they fell off the edge.
      • Also, Batman's rule is that he won't murder anyone. Murder denotes intent. Batman probably tried to save Harvey, and ironically it may be Harvey's gunshot wound that stopped Batman from saving him. An injury to a person's core saps a great deal of upper body strength. Note that he didn't have the strength to hold himself up on that ledge for long, much less his weight and Harvey's.
      • Actually, his rule is that he does not kill anyone. Whether or not it was murder isn't what inspires Batman's rule. Were that the case, he could be as reckless as he wanted (far more so than he is in the film) and justify any collateral death as an accident.
      • This is being a bit rigid and morally absolutist, especially for these movies — the whole point of which is that while the figure of Batman may become a symbol, the person actually wearing the suit is only human. When Batman says that he doesn't kill anyone, he means that he won't deliberately cause someone else's death, whether to make life easier for himself, or to satisfy a craving for vengeance or blood or power, or because he couldn't be bothered taking steps to prevent loss of life.
    • The breaking of this rule is the whole point: each of the three main protagonists is shown to have played their A game and lost: Gordon trusted crooked cops and it came back to bite him, Dent was pushed so far that he broke and went somewhat ax-crazy, Batman had to kill a dude and "break his only rule". The Joker wins.
      • You also have to keep in mind that Harvey had already barely survived having half his face burnt off and a car crash. Likely any kind of hard blow could have killed him at that point. Batman didn't kill Harvey, his cumulative injuries did.
  • Well, if it was accidental, sure. Then again, Dent had just agreed with everything the Joker did and was going to kill Gordon’s son out of spite (though he said it was fairness), so Dent deserved what he got.
  • While Batman is ultimately responsible for Harvey's death, we're treating Batman's "Thou Shalt Not Kill" rule as if it's a fundamental and unbreakable rule of the universe which can only be broken as a result of some kind of unforgivable moral failing or weakness on Batman's part. In doing so, we're forgetting one of the fundamental points of the Nolan trilogy and this film especially — that Batman, or rather Bruce Wayne, is only human. He's fallible. He makes mistakes. He doesn't have super-strength, can't fly, and can't nullify gravity. And tragically, he can't save everyone. In this case, Batman is placed in a position where to save a child's life from a lunatic with a gun, his only option is to tackle the lunatic at the edge of a high drop, a fundamentally risky situation. He essentially flips a coin that he can do so and somehow keep everyone alive and, sadly for Batman and Harvey, the coin lands against him on that one. But that doesn't mean that he's "broken his rule" or that he was "reckless"; it just means that he's human, luck was against him, and in this case he was unfortunately unable to save Harvey.

    Hitmen don't have time for no Joker hijinks! 
  • In the real world, Joker's plans would have washed up when that mob boss put the bounty on his head. Look at the possible scenario: Joker has a knife; you have a gun. Do you A) Bust a cap in his ass and take the 500 grand, or B) Listen to him ramble about an overly complicated plan that would ''never work in real life''.
    • What on earth makes you think that would be the scenario? He's a psycho, not an idiot. He's fine with guns when the situation demands them, he still has that money he stole from the bank, he's quick as a snake, he's a hell of an improviser, he's really damned smart, he lies like a champion, he's got a bunch of minions who don't seem to care about money, and absolutely no rules, whatsoever. There's probably a string of hopeful assassins who wound up dead or maimed or strapped to bombs or smiling ear-to-ear, literally. Or all of them at once.
    • The very first thing the Joker did after getting the bounty placed on his head was kill the man placing the bounty on his head. Also, the Joker had a knife to Gambol's mouth, and there was no indication Gambol was armed. And how would Gambol collect the very bounty he placed on the Joker anyway?
      • Gambol was the guy who posted the bounty, not the guy who would collect it. He'd probably just write the collectors and IOU or something, or give it to them in cash. As for him not being armed, he had two bodyguards, and the Joker had a pretty nifty plan for getting at Gambol. Gambol was probably overconfident, and didn't want a gun on his belt messing up his billiards game.

    Magic trick is implausible. 
  • How the pencil is stuck into the table for his "magic trick". Wouldn't the tip of the pencil break?
    • What, you never got bored in class and stabbed a pencil into the woodwork? That said, he couldn't be sure he'd have a suitable table.
    • It seems that he set the pencil on the eraser side and drove the guy's face down onto the pointy end.
      • Nope. He definitely smashes the pencil into the table pointy side down. That being said, it seems likely that the pencil was indeed not a pencil but something of the Joker's evil mind. Or it was a regular pencil, and Joker's simply badass enough to kill someone with the soft end of a pencil...rushing up to meet them.
      • Yeah, it was the soft end of a pencil. But you know what's softer than a rubber eraser? Your eyes.

    Who did the mob bank call? 
  • At the beginning the alarm guy says "That's funny, it didn't dial out to 911 it was trying to reach a private number." Perhaps thus was a reference to the bank's silent alarm trying to reach Batman. But why would Batman protect a suspected mob bank? Especially in view of the fact that (as has been noted in previous discussions) robberies of mob banks can often be clandestine transfers of money.
    • ...Or, you know, they could be calling for other mobsters to come protect them.
      • Exactly. It was meant to make you think it was calling for Batman, but then when you realize it's a mob bank — they're calling the mob.
      • When was it ever implied it was calling Batman? It was clear from the start that it was a mob bank, that one teller with the shotgun practically spells it out.
      • But at the point the alarm guy made that statement, there was no indication that it was a mob bank.
      • Doesn't one of the robbers mention that it's a mob bank right as they're starting the job?
      • No - The scene with the electrified vault (and the "mob bank" explanation) comes after the scene with the private alarm.
      • Specifically, when Happy is opening the vault, Grumpy says, "A mob bank. I guess the Joker's as crazy as they say."
    • What kind of alarm guy would think the alarm system would dial 9-1-1 instead of a alarm monitoring station. 9-1-1 is generally reserved for voice or, at best, TTY.
      • He (and by extension the filmmakers) might have simply been using "9-1-1" as shorthand for "the signal that would go straight to the police/emergency services".

    Why the gargantuan pile of money? 
  • Why do Gotham's mobsters keep their money as a vast pile of cash? Have they never heard of Swiss Bank accounts?
    • Physical cash is harder to trace. Electronic transfers leave electronic paper trails; they don't have to worry about that with cash stored inside their own banks. Plus, electronic accounts can be frozen. Physical cash, not so much.
    • Just the Joker requested his portion in cash. It's no way necessary that all of the rest was in the same form.
    • Truth in Television- real gangsters almost always use cash; hell many don't even have wallets, just clips of money they carry around. Apart from anything else, since the way they make their money is illegal (theft, drugs etc.), they have to pay in cash to keep their business transactions as secret as possible, and keep their real cash income off the books. Otherwise, they'd have to explain why their bank accounts are receiving and paying out hundreds if not thousands of dollars every week to and from known street criminals, and why they are earning so much more than their day job would net them.
    • Also, Swiss Bank accounts are far less secure than people seem to think, especially these days. You rarely hear about them in fiction these days (or their Cayman Island equivalents). Plus, why bother with a bank in Switzerland or the Caymans when you and your mob buddies own a bank locally, one that the police clearly didn't have much power to touch?

    Truth about Dent comes out -> instant reversal of RICO case? 
  • At the end of the movie, one of Batman's main justifications for taking the fall for Dent's crimes is that if it was revealed that Dent murdered people, all of the criminals that he put away would be let go. Umm...why? Does No Ontological Inertia apply to the criminal justice system too now? Let's be thankful it doesn't work this way in real life.
    • Much earlier in the movie, after the courtroom scene where hundreds of mobsters were charged at once, the mayor points out that what Dent did was a "farce" that would never fly normally, and could only be sustained because the people and the courts liked him, and Judge Scorillo was on Harvey's side. With Scorillo dead, the only thing keeping the entire absurd case from being thrown out was Harvey's reputation and popularity, which would be ruined if everyone learned he was a psychotic murderer.
      • Based on countless hours of Law and Order, if a DA or policeman shows any kind of corruption, they have to review all his convictions. Defense attorneys seem to be really good at getting their clients off the hook in these situations.
    • The attorney killed three or four people. Why would they release those 500 criminals he put away, despite the fact that they have already been convicted. It doesn't make sense. The Judge liking Dent doesn't fly either, because Dent talks about this type of case as being a real thing. Not just something he thought would be funny and it turns out the Judge would too. So if it is found out that Dent is a criminal, then there is no reason that the justice system would just reverse itself and have all the criminals out on the streets.
      • They weren't convicted yet. Realistically, such a large case would take a long time. Dent didn't even imagine that they would be convicted, he just wanted to charge them all so that the entire mob would be off the streets for a few months and the commissioner and mayor could do some real good in the interim. Then Joker appeared. Dent didn't just kill a few people, he murdered the head of the very crime syndicate he was in the middle of prosecuting. At very least, the District Attorney murdering your co-defendant is more than enough grounds to get your case dismissed for malicious prosecution.
    • It was a maverick stunt that’d only work because of Dent’s popularity, the mayor mentions this to Dent. The fact is Dent was on too high a pedestal: he was seen taking risks no attorney should try and in private threatened to kill Thomas Schiff in the aftermath of Gordon’s assumed death. He was unbalanced in private, but a white knight in public. Batman pointed out to Dent that any scandal that affected him would undo all his work.

    No way can I spit this grenade out my mouth. 
  • Why didn't the guy just spit the grenade out and make a run (stumble) for it the moment the bus door closed? He could see that the pin was attached to the bumper.
    • Because the grenade was wedged in his mouth. He couldn't spit it out.
    • Also, he was lying on the floor. He wouldn't have time to get it un-wedged, get up, and run out of the blast radius before the bus pulled out and it went off. Basically, the only way you survive an encounter with the Joker is if he decides to let you survive. Which, lucky for that guy, he did.
    • Part of the issue is the grenade used in the scene is small enough that the actor can hold it in his mouth without injury, so it looks like he is keeping it in place voluntarily - because he is. If they had used a round grenade, it would be even more obvious because grenades are designed for throwing, not eating, so they tend to be bigger than mouths. Do we really need to see the Joker hammering a grenade into someone's mouth to characterize him as a madman? That said, the grenade shown is likely a smoke grenade (flashbangs tend to have holes formed in the body to facilitate faster burning of the flash powder) which might sound harmless-er, except milspec smoke grenades tend to burn so hot that they will melt through their steel cases on the butt-end. This is a good thing, since it allows the smoke cloud to form faster but also tends to set things ablaze, such as buildings, blankets, and, faces .

    Surely ordinary people would blow up a boatful of scumbags for their families' sakes. 
  • Why didn't anyone who is faced with their kid's and love's death blow up the boat? Not advocating mass murder, or saying that 300 lives don't matter, but eventually, paternal instinct takes over.
    • Because no one wanted to get their hands dirty. No one wanted to have hundreds of deaths on their conscience - especially when they didn't know if their opposite numbers were going to kill them. No one wanted to be a murderer. Didn't the movie make that quite explicitly clear?
      • Yeah, that was the entire point of the scene. Paternal instinct or no, people generally do not want to kill others. For a normal person, killing someone is extremely difficult to bring yourself to do. There's a reason that a huge part of military training is based around changing that mindset, after all. There's a huge difference between, say, fighting off a robber to save your kid, and killing 300 people in cold blood, after having to think about it.
    • When you're in a large crowd and a decision must be made, then statistically you are far less likely to act than if you had been the only one there. Say someone is attacked - people will stand around for several minutes waiting to see if others jump in. Someone has a heart attack? Don't count on someone calling 911 right off the bat. The choice is either to die or kill 300 other people? Let someone else make it!
      • Exactly. It's called the bystander effect - even when everybody around realizes Something Must Be Done for a perfectly good reason, the more people are around, the more each individual figures somebody else is going to do it, and thus ironically the less Something gets Done. In that particular case, on top of that basic psych fact, there's the added notion that you're going to be the one who does a monstrous thing in front of your entire family and 300 other people (including news crews). All judging you for it and looking down on you, even if that's what they wanted. Especially if that's what they wanted : better hate you than themselves.
    • Plus, even if they tried to rationalize it by saying that their families would die if they don't blow up the other boat, there would still be a nagging sense that the true reason that they did was because they themselves didn't want to die. In other words, they would have killed all the people on the prisoners' boat, including the innocent guards and crew members, because they didn't want to face death. Maybe they didn't want to live with the guilt.

    Alfred's past 
  • How did Alfred go from hunting crazed jewel thieves in Burma to being a butler?
    • Depending on which origin is canon at the moment, Alfred's been everything from a British Army battlefield medic to former MI-5. It's widely accepted the Alfred is a Retired Bad Ass.
    • What does a soldier (or possibly a mercenary) do when he gets too old or too sensible to get shot at for a living? Well, a soldier becoming a valet is almost an old trope in its own right.
      • That seals it. Alfred is a mega-badass.
    • Michael Caine talked about how he had invented a backstory for this. Alfred was in the armed forces of some kind, and he was injured and spent a lot of time on base, where he learned to cook (having nothing better to do). At that time, Thomas Wayne was looking to hire a butler, and wanted a tough guy for the job, so he was looking around this army camp, and he met Alfred.
    • It could just be that Thomas Wayne, a man who believed in doing the right thing, in his early days had rubbed a few people in the wrong way. Still continuing his medical practice, he found that occasionally, he needed a bit of protection from the occasional thug sent to 'teach him a lesson'. Simple solution? Hire a bodyguard. But what do you tell your patients of the fellow constantly at your elbow, watching attentively, keeping track of everything, all the time? "Oh him? He's my butler."
      • Several back stories for Alfred have had him as a friend of Thomas or even Thomas' father (depending on just how old he is relative to Bruce), and the Family hired him as a personal assistant, too often people confuse Butler w/ male maid when the job description is much more in depth and in large households may be more akin to Chief of Staff than anything else

    How does a burn victim escape an exploding deathtrap of a hospital? 
  • How did Harvey Dent get out of the hospital after he and The Joker had their little chat? As soon as The Joker walks out, he starts to detonate his bombs whilst Harvey lies in his bed and can barely move. How is it that Harvey is not really really dead?
    • Harvey could move fine. The reason he was stuck in bed was that he was tied down. Joker undoes the restraints while he's talking with Dent.
    • There was an implied amount of time that passed between the point where Harvey did his coin flip and the Joker walked out. It should have been obvious that the gap between those two scenes were not continuous.

    Bomb in stomach, no big deal, just going to carry on basically as before. 
  • The guy was still walking around for, what, maybe an hour? It seems like it would take one heck of a surgeon to keep the guy alive that long after being cut open like that. The way the guy talks about, it seems the Joker did it himself. He cuts people up, but there's a big difference between cutting people up for torture or killing and actually operating on them.
    • Humans are surprisingly durable creatures. As long as no major veins or organs were cut, and lots of anesthesia was applied, it'd be quite possible to walk around for hours, albeit in a rather incoherent state. And there's no direct indication that the Joker did it himself, just that he had it done, and that he convinced the guy to go through with it.
    • Also pointing this out here he wasn’t carrying on like usual. It’s possible he was on pain killers before he got to the lockup and they just started wearing off which is why he was complaining about his insides hurting.

    Joker's henchmen are loyal, rational psychotics and/or sane guys with no reason to trust him? 
  • How, exactly, does the Joker manage to get so many loyal henchmen? Sure, some of them, like the one Dent tried to interrogate, are schizophrenic nuts, but really, it's pretty hard to find that many people out there who are simultaneously nutty enough to follow a loon like the Joker and not realize that it's probably a one-way ticket to getting knifed up the minute you outlive your usefulness, yet rational enough to carry out his often madly complex plots. Furthermore, some of his henchmen - like those kids who help him kill Gambol near the beginning - look pretty sane. What could the Joker possibly offer them? How could they miss the fact that he's clearly Axe-Crazy? And later on, he manages to convince the Chechen's entire gang to turn against Chechen and start working for him at the drop of a hat. Once again, how?
    • It seems that that at least some of those thugs were supplied by his clients after the Joker took the job of finding Lau.
    • Money and fear, a potent combination. There's a new player in town, and he pays well. So you go work for him — and it's only once you've joined his crew that you realize he's crazier than a smashed windshield and about as healthy to be around as Mary Mallon.
      The obvious thing to do then is quit, right? But then one of your colleagues starts talking about getting out with his share, and that's when the Joker takes him to one side and gives him his... severance package.
      • The fear worked a bigger factor than the money did. Not at first, probably, but once word got around that there was someone pulled the bank caper, a few more people joined his shindig. After he faced the mafia during their meeting, insulted them, came out alive, and then took out the head of one of the warring gangs, a lot of mobsters thought they'd rather join the Devil be on the side that fights him. And once he pulled off his jail gambit, which involved fooling Batman himself, it wouldn't be surprising if every remaining unjailed thug in Gotham flocked to him, knowing that he was their greatest leader against the Dark Knight. Rats clinging to the floating piece of wreckage, you know?
    • Also keep in mind that there are still a lot of uncaptured escapees from Arkham, as mentioned near the beginning of the film (or possibly the end of Batman Begins, in any case.) Batman mentions that the police officer wearing the Rachel Dawes nametag is a paranoid schizophrenic, and some of the captured lackeys, including the lackey with the bomb in his stomach are also clearly insane.
      • Why so serious ?
      • Those are some pretty disciplined, obedient psychos.
      • At least with the big guy in the jail cell, it seemed Joker played on his psychosis and fed him some mumbo-jumbo about "putting bright lights" inside of him.
      • Yup, Joker is remarkably good at preying on people's own particular psychology in order to get them to do what he wants. His conversation with Harvey should have aptly demonstrated that. Once he figures out how your brain ticks, he tailors his manipulations accordingly, which is part of what makes him so terrifying. You literally have no way of knowing if anything he says is a lie to convince you to do what he wants, or not. This applies to crazy people as well as sane ones. Hell, for all we know, that whole conversation with Batman at the end was actually a gambit on his part to make sure that Batman never killed him, rather than an attempt to goad him into doing just that. When it's all tolled up at the end of the film, Batman's a wanted fugitive, the white knight of Gotham is dead, and the whole city is terrified of him - and there are about ten other ways his plan could have worked out to his favor even if things had gone differently.
    • You'd think Antisocial Disorder personalities would be a little more attracted to a guy who clearly is out to fuck with the system and commit wanton acts of violence.
    • Considering he probably employs a small army whose job commitment begins and ends with "I will get paid", it's necessary that there are more people in his organization than appear on screen. Not all of them go out on jobs, only the most trusted/crazy/well-paid/skilled; but there will still be plenty of "I am being paid to move these barrels onto this ferry boat and not ask questions" just off stage. And keep in mind the Joker is very personable when he decides to be. How many minutes did he need to talk to Dent before he convinced him to become a villain? Wasn't that their first meeting? One motivational speech at the right moment turns the crusading DA into a coin-flipping sociopath. An hour a day would give him a 12 man squad of fervently loyal triggermen. Plausible.
    • Considering how many IRL fans there are of characters like Ledger-Joker, V or Tyler Durden despite the fact that they're not supposed to be emulated, it doesn't seem too far-fetched that a charismatic leader like the Joker could manipulate a lot of people into doing his bidding.

    The Joker can invade mob gatherings without being frisked. 
  • Probably really obvious (or already asked), but how did the Joker get into the mob meeting without anybody finding all the explosives inside his coat? The first shot of the scene is explicitly of The Chechen walking through a metal detector and getting inspected by the guards.
    • Its implied that the Joker has guys in the Gotham Mob in his pocket, considering how easily he slipped out of the meeting. Its pretty obvious he wasn't frisked on the way in, considering how he shows up out of nowhere and everyone looks surprised, and the fact that he knew about the meeting shows he has someone in the mob in his pocket.
    • Watch Joker closely as he walks in. You hear the guard yell in pain and fall against the door, and then the Joker steps over his unconscious/dead body.
      • No, that's the sound Gordon made when he kicked a pile of cash in frustration.
      • No, it's not, dammit, because the Joker doesn't turn up until about a third of the way through the scene. This, from memory, is the sequence: Maroni enters, getting searched by a door guard with a handheld metal detector (or something). The mobsters begin their meeting, with Lau speaking to them on the television. They react to Lau's plan with varying levels of skepticism/annoyance. They then begin discussing the issue of Batman and how they're going to protect their cash, whereupon the Joker smacks the aforementioned door guard (that is when you hear the guy yell and fall), steps over his body, then walks into the meeting, fake-laughing. He prevents them shooting him in that instant with sheer audacity and later his coat o' grenades; he wasn't inspected or searched. The mobsters refuse his deal, so he shrugs and vanishes, and the scene ends. Basically, the Joker entered and escaped, unharmed, through the front door, with sheer charisma and audacity combined with careful planning and preparation - and, interestingly, didn't achieve his stated goal right then. He's later proven capable of improvising, but it does add to the "One man, some clown, he's nothing, he's nobody," assumption that dogs him during the movie's first act.
    • Simple: the Joker doesn't walk through the main door, the one with the metal detector. He uses a side door. Where's that kitchen supposed to be, anyway?
    • What if Joker was waiting there for quite some time? Few hours before they started setting up, he may have been hiding in a cabinet or something else. Maybe even a full day.

    Backblast proof RPG? 
  • How does The Joker fire that RPG from inside the truck? Even with the back door open, the backblast would reflect off the interior of the vehicle and fry him.
    • That's a common error made in most movies. Very few directors know about backblast.
    • If you re-watch the film, the door behind the Joker is open as well. The RPG-7 uses a two-stage rocket enabling it to be fired within buildings, provided you leave a two metre space to the rear.

    The Tumbler has precognition skills! 
  • The moment in the tunnel where the Joker fires the RPG, only for the Tumbler to take the hit. Namely, how did Batman know when to accelerate (which just happened to be at the exact same moment that the Joker was aiming for the armored truck)? There's no way he would have been able to see what the Joker was doing, especially given the fact that he was crouched low in the Tumbler, therefore was completely reliant on the readouts on the computers, which probably weren't programmed to deliver that kind of precise data.
    • The RPG was partially poking out the door of the truck. Considering the Tumbler has equipment precise enough to pick out humans against a relatively warm background, it would make sense that he'd have something as simple as a camera on the thing.
    • He had also just fired two RPGs before at the police car in front of the security van. It'd be reasonable to assume he'd fire another, because why waste two clear chances to kill Dent unless you have more rockets?

    Who cares about your secret identity when you're rich? 
  • Why is such a big deal made of Bruce not revealing his identity? Its like, he has a ton of cash. Why not just get lots of security for loved ones and bribe the jury?
    • Did you completely miss the scene where Joker manages to kill every single person under police protection, often right in front of them? It wouldn't do much, no matter how much security.
    • Bribing the mean you expect Bruce to engage in exactly the kind of corruption that he's become Batman to try and stop?
    • If Bruce reveals he's Batman, he'll be arrested and charged in hours at the latest. Wayne Enterprises will crash and burn due to the massive stock hit it would take, Bruce would end up in jail for vigilantism, and Batman would be no more. Those are generally Bad Things.
    • Not to mention every single major criminal in town looking to take out Batman would know precisely where the man lives and where his base of operations is located.

    Does Gordon know Bats is really Bruce Wayne? 
  • Does Gordon know Batman's true identity? Think about it, how many times did they exchange cellular communications? Gordon would definitely have used his resources to find out who those numbers belonged to. What do others think?
    • You don't think Batman would mask the numbers he's using somehow?
    • Aside from the fact that Gordon probably wouldn't trace the numbers, considering he's an ally of Batman, if he did run the numbers, he's probably going to find them registered to a Mr. Doesn'texist, out of Nowhereville, in Middleofscrewitallistan.
    • Wayne Enterprises has been seeding Gotham's cell phones with secret technology in order to set up the sonar trick he uses at the end. If he * didn't* program himself an untraceable method of using those phones, he needs to quit his night job.
    • We find out in the sequel that Gordon had no idea who Batman really is. Presumably Bruce has a stash of burner phones lying around that he's never handled with his bare hands.

    The convoy disaster could have been averted. 
  • Why transfer Dent by a convoy through twisted city streets where an ambush could be set up? Why not just fly him out in a helicopter? The very same helicopter that was providing air support perhaps?
    • Because it was a trap that was intended to draw out the Joker. The fact that they had clearly set everything up so that they would be drawing the Joker out in the first place should have made that fact blindingly obvious. (also, flying him out on a helicopter would be a bad idea; all the Joker needs is a single surface to air missile....)
      • Yeah, you saw what happened to that helicopter, didn't you?

    Gordon's kids' ages 
  • What's with the age of Gordon's kids? In Begins he has a toddler at home, seen when Batman pays him a visit, and yet in the TDK the younger (Barbara, maybe?) is at least six if not older. How much time exactly passed between Begins and TDK?
    • Well, actually if that girl is Barbara it is not too hard to explain. Most people don't know Barbara is actually not Gordon's daughter (okay, well, she is, more on that later). She's his niece. Gordon ended up adopting her when her parents died or something similar to that. And, yes, we do find out eventually in comics continuity that Babs is Gordon's biological daughter because he had an affair with her mother, but as far as most people know Babs is Gordon's adopted daughter, not biological.
    • Maybe in Begins, they were babysitting the kid of a relative or a friend.

    Rapid scarring 
  • When the fake Batman's corpse drops down in front of the window, how on earth did he already have that mass of scar tissue after a few days?

    Batman can stealth into a crowded party? 
  • How could Batman get into the middle of the cocktail party, behind Joker, without any of the party guests reacting in any way? The ballroom is well-lit, the Joker is surrounded by onlookers, yet Batman is already on the floor when he says his line, "Then you're gonna love me." What gives?
    • Everyone was looking at the Joker, that's why.
    • And their field of vision doesn't include the two square feet immediately behind the Joker?
    • Bats wasn't behind the Joker, he came in from the side. And you'd be surprised what people can miss if they're not looking for something. Also consider, it's not like Batman was just standing there waiting. It's likely he jumped the Joker as soon as he had a clear path, after squeezing his way through the shocked crowd first.
      • He could have also dropped down from the ceiling, where no one would have any reason to be looking at all until he descended.
    • Why would they alert Joker to Batman's presence? They know an ass-kicking for the evil clown dude is merely seconds away.

    Call someone to save everyone on the boats! 
  • So, none of the people on the ferries had cell phones? The civvies wouldn't have had the numbers of anyone on the other boat, but the ferry workers probably would have.
    • No, it's pretty much confirmed that the people on the ferries had cell phones — because Lucius Fox, while using the super sonar device, tracks the Joker's voice from audio sources on the ferries (i.e. the civvies' mobile phones) but determines that's not the source of the Joker's signal. On the other hand, even if the people on the ferries could call out, what would it help? The Joker's threatened destruction if anyone tries to get off the boats.
      • Yes, but they could have called the other boat and said, "Look, we're not going to blow you up, so you don't blow us up." or something like that.
      • In which case they will still get blown up by the Joker when the time runs out, so no matter what deal they make the pressure to go back on it and save themselves goes up by the minute.
      • Besides, how many regular people have the number for whatever random prison guard happens to be escorting prisoners out of the city by ferry during a hastily put together evacuation?

    Dent died for nothing if Lau couldn't testify. 
  • Batman lets himself be framed for Dent's murders so Dent's reputation is preserved. The prime reason for this seems to be so the cases against the five hundred-odd Mob members won't be thrown out (in an earlier scene, Batman calls Dent's stand against organized crime as the first legitimate ray of light in Gotham in decades. Dent himself asks the Mayor to consider what can be done with 18 months or so of clean streets.) But if that's right, then Batman's gesture was either unneeded or futile: the case against the Mob depended entirely on Lao's testimony as their banker, and Lao (it is implied, if not on screen) was killed by the Joker in the fire that burned up the Mob's money. At that point Dent's reputation doesn't make a spot of difference to the RICO case at all.
    • Dent's reputation would have affected more than just that case. With Bats taking the blame for the deaths, Dent goes down as a martyr, a hero to the people, and someone to inspire the next DA to live up to. If Dent is implicated in the deaths then, oh well, he was just another whacko, corrupt politician. The morale of pretty much everyone in the city goes down from that, and you might find yourself in a worse position than the city was in during Begins.
      • Dent takes Lao to court to testify. You only see the scene before they leave where Dent throws him a bullet-proof vest and mentions they are going to court, but that's enough to show that Lao got his testimony out of the way before his untimely death. Plus the goal was not to convict all 500 hundred of them. Only the top mafia guys could afford to make bail; all the lower and mid-range guys would not be able to afford to make bail, and it was expected that most would plead out when it became apparent their bosses wouldn't come to their rescue (since they aren't making any money because most of their guys on the streets are in prison). With the Joker's spree of terror going on those 490 guys would have some hope of getting let out, but once his efforts to corrupt Batman and Dent failed they had Lao's testimony on record and the prosecuting attorney has just become Gotham's martyr. With no way to discredit Dent's prosecution and Lao's rather damning testimony combined with the Joker's spree still on the minds of many gothamites the RICO case is pretty much decided against the mob.

    Mobsters change the deal with the Joker? 
  • So the Joker makes a deal with the three mob leaders; kill Batman and he'll have half of the mob's money. But he doesn't kill Batman, so why does he get the money?
    • He, uh, didn't make a deal with the mobsters to kill Batman. That was why he had to walk out with a whole pile of grenades ready to blow in the first place. It was after Batman captured Lao that the mob actually called the Joker, and in that case, it was clear they called him to break Lao out of jail so they could keep their money safe.
      • The mobster who decided to hire him (Chechen?) said 'He's right. We have to fix real problem. Batman'. And it didn't say anywhere that they hired him on different terms.
      • But the terms were different at that point, because the police had Lao, which changed everything. As long as Lao was in police custody, their money was literally gone. And that was the problem in the first place: the police and Batman were targeting the mob's money. The Joker solved that by getting their money back.

    Just what was in that gas grenade? 
  • What exactly happened to the mob banker after the pin on that gas grenade was pulled?
    • It's my guess that the gas simply killed him, and probably everyone else in the bank. To my knowledge, nerve gas is typically invisible to the human eye, but that wouldn't have looked anywhere near as fearsome as Brown Smog of Death TM
    • That was just a smoke bomb- another example of why the Joker could just as easily be called the Jerkass.
      • So it turned out the Joker isn't just an Ax-Crazy psychopath...but he's a mean jerk too!
      • Well, actually, given that military smoke grenades generally use white phosphorous, what the Joker actually did was set the man's head on fire.
      • Harmless brown gas, folks. The Joker was, get this... playing a joke.
      • 'Cause he's an asshole.
      • Mob banker guy is most likely dead considered how any real smoke grenade gets incredibly hot when releasing smoke, as in scalding hot and was shot multiple times in the legs. Also Joker is an asshole.
      • Maybe it was fear toxin, considering that about a second after it releases you see him react to it and scream slightly.
      • There's an in-universe news report on the robbery that mentions nothing about fear gas or any deaths aside from the four other clowns. It's just harmless gas. The banker was probably just freaking out slightly due to the whole 'I thought I was going to explode/who was that crazy bastard/I no longer have knees' thing. The Joker's entire reason for pulling the job was to get attention and annoy the Mob, and that would be less effective if everybody in the bank was dead and thus couldn't report seeing him. Also, he is an asshole who likes to see people squirm.
      • Based on the Joker's preceding line about how whatever doesn't kill you makes you stranger, it seems that the gas was harmless and nonlethal and was meant to illustrate his point. Also, as the above troper notes, the news report would likely have mentioned nerve gas or fear toxin or the like being released in the bank.
      • Furthermore, there isn't much reason to believe that it was Joker Gas or whatever. If it was, then it would have been seen later in the movie for sure.
    • While we're on the topic of the grenades in the bank, why didn't one of the victims just throw one of their concussion grenades into the bus as it left, or even suicide bomb the robbers in an attempt to save everyone else?
      • Yes, because a whole bunch of scared civilians are gonna keep their cool and hold on to their grenades if someone else's goes off near them. Brilliant plan. And why would they do that? They're still alive when the robbers leave. You think any of them are going to kill themselves just to kill a bunch of crooks?

    Echolocation advanced enough to image facepaint. 
  • In the scene where they track down the Joker by sonar- how do they somehow manage to use sonar imaging to detect his makeup as well as his general bodily location? It doesn't even seem to pick up distinct facial features for anyone else, but really. It might just be to make him more eminently recognizable, but a big blinking arrow over his head reading "THIS IS THE GUY" or something would have been just as easy to program in. Maybe Bruce Wayne's just a tad slow...
    • Two thoughts come to mind: Bruce programmed in the body type, scars, makeup, and such into the search program to go with the voice match, or the makeup makes subtle changes in sound as it bounces off the Joker's face. Either way, no big for Crazy-Prepared Batman.
      • It can barely detect facial features on everybody else but it can detect the subtle color changes in nasty, grimy greasepaint? The first one's a bit more plausible, but still... the big blinking neon sign.
      • Remember, it also clearly identifies the SWAT team members.
      • What's so hard to believe? You're making this too hard, they simply implied which was which. Wouldn't it be pretty obvious to discern the hostages, since they weren't moving, and the SWAT team was moving, plus they were going INTO the building. The Joker could be noticed because he was the only guy on that floor, and the ring of dogs he has makes it painfully obvious.
      • The problem isn't knowing which one he is, it's the fact that the screen displayed him with the makeup ON, rather than just as he would look like with it off if it were really working like some ridiculously high-tech echolocation. All right, chalk it up to Viewer-Friendly Interface and presume that Bats is really just that prepared.

    Did Batman break his one rule at the end? 
  • After two hours of Thou Shalt Not Kill, Batman tackles Two-Face to his death, and this goes completely without comment? Weak.
    • The inconsistency was already there in the first movie, when Batman decided that letting Rah's Al Ghul die in an explosion was totally okay when he could have, say, saved him and had him arrested. The issue of Batman's No Killing rule and his varying respect of it has been raised in the comics over the years, but it hasn't in the new movies... as unbelievable as it may seem to most Dark Knight fanboys: Batman not being called out for his double standards limited some people's enjoyment of the movies.
    • The difference is that, despite his rather extreme methods, Ghul wasn't a psychopath. The whole aim of the Joker's psychological assault on Batman is that they are exactly the same, which forced Bruce to realize that he had to take a higher stand and become a true hero. It's Batman's continuing evolution as a hero.
    • Ra's was fully capable of jumping out the window Batman left through in Begins. He chose to die. And in TDK, Batman kinda sorta takes responsibility for killing Two-Face when he says, quite clearly and outright to Gordon, that "I killed these people." Sure, he was taking on the burden in order to keep the streets safe, but at the same time, he is outright admitting to and taking responsibility for killing him, even if the death was unintentional and part of saving Gordon's life.
    • The last sentence is the most important. It's not like he pulled out a gun and shot Dent in the face, he tackles him to stop him shooting Gordon's kid.
    • Also, there's a difference between throwing someone to their death and jumping in to save a kid. He had a chance to save the Joker or not when Joker was plunging to his death. With Two-Face there wasn't as many options, just save the kid or let him die. Likewise when he was fighting through all the fake doctors to rescue the hostages dressed like clowns, any of them could have died in the heat of battle. But he had no other choice. This comes down to the decision to kill someone vs. having no other choice.
      • Batarangs seem to do the trick in the comics, and Two-Face wasn't even "about" to shoot the kid—his coin was in the air. How hard would it have been to simply elbow him in the face so he could release Gordon's son, and proceed to beat him up? (This is the guy who, moments earlier, tied a bunch of trained SWAT guys together and had made them fall out of a building without killing them.)
      • Does he use batarangs here? As for the SWAT team, he hadn't been shot in the stomach when that happened. Getting a bullet in your gut kind of impairs your ability to fight. And when dealing with the SWAT team, he wasn't immediately dealing with a deranged, armed individual who had a gun to a child's head. Batman only had one goal: get Harvey away from Gordon's kid before he pulled the trigger on the pistol and killed him. He doesn't have time to pull any fancy moves to disarm him.
      • Actually, Bats is shown clipping them to his belt and using them in the previous movie (specifically to knock the lights out during his first tussle with Falcone's goons), so it's likely that he had them on hand during this film. That said, shurikens and the like (especially of the size shown of the Batarangs) are more for distraction than incapacitation, and hitting Two Face's hand would've been a difficult task even if he hadn't just been shot, what with the risk of hitting Gordon's kid in the face instead.
      • Additionally, from a writer standpoint, even if Batman casually mentions he takes responsibility for Dent's murders, he still killed someone and doesn't even address that, despite this being one of the main points of the rest of the movie. As for killing vs. letting someone die, Alfred made a point of assuring him in Begins that the killer is the only one responsible (in that case, for the Wayne murders).
      • "I killed these people." Note the bolded word. These. Meaning he includes Dent in the list of people he has killed. So yes, Batman did address and accept responsibility for the killing of Harvey.
      • Is Dent just one of "them?" If Batman doesn't differentiate between people he kills and people whose murder he takes the blame for, that just doesn't scream guilt or anything. As for how much choice he had, for one thing, the scene could have easily been rewritten to allow for a less fatal situation; Batman wouldn't have needed to kill Dent if, say, they left out the whole "punishment" part and Gordon's son was the only person Dent was about to kill (thus freeing Batman up of his wound). For another thing, Batman doesn't have a "no murder" rule; he has a "no killing" rule. The difference is vitally important; otherwise, Batman could potentially level entire buildings full of people without wanting to kill anyone, and his code would be A-okay with that. Realistically, yeah, that scenario probably wouldn't have played out any differently (though if Joker can perfectly time a bus to kill a treacherous mook, Batman can be an expert with the batarang), but the writers really didn't have to put Batman in that position (or alternatively, Batman could have made it explicit that yeah, he realizes that he killed Harvey Dent, and is genuinely disturbed by this, before moving on to taking responsibility for the other victims).
      • Interestingly, he did exactly that (leveled a building full of people) in Begins.
    • He obviously didn't mean for that tackle to be fatal? Batman doesn't, technically speaking, never kill anyone, even in the comics: he just never * deliberately* kills anyone.
      • The reason it's a no-killing rule rather than a no-murder rule is to prevent Batman from getting comfortable with these kinds of "justifications." And even if he doesn't actually have a no-killing rule, he would still have had a stronger reaction to the accidental killing of one of his closest allies (especially when the entire point of Batman's development in the movie is Thou Shalt Not Kill).
      • He has said in the comics, "Never intentionally," when asked whether he's ever killed anyone. As for the films themselves, he never explicitly states in them that it is his police never to kill anyone, even unintentionally.
    • What was he supposed to do, sit down and sob about it for the last two minutes of the movie? In all likelihood he tried to save Harvey, but it's hard to hang with one hand from a ledge while holding onto a man weighing almost as much as you when you've spent the last few hours going all out to battle a lunatic clown and have just been shot. Batman accepted responsibility when he said "I killed these people" and ran off. He knew the cops were minutes, maybe seconds away; he didn't have time to do much more than that if he didn't want to be caught.

    Why not blame the Joker? 
  • Why doesn't Gordon pin the cops' deaths on the Joker or his thugs? There's no evidence linking him to their murders, but there's no evidence incriminating Batman either.
    • Because the Joker probably has an alibi already planned out for that. Not to mention that, in a way, pinning those crimes on the Joker is wrong and illegal. Though its also wrong to pin them on Batman, the difference is Batman chose to have them pinned on him, which is really not much worse than what's already happened; it would be next to impossible for Batman to escape the fact that he killed Dent anyway, and since he's already killed one man he can go ahead and take the heat for the others.
      • Illegal yes. Morally wrong no. Joker drove Harvey insane with the express purpose of causing him to commit murder, which makes him morally accountable for Two-Face's actions. Hell, if the real story got out it would probably make him legally viable as well. Keeping that in mind blaming him is arguably more moral than blaming Batman, since all they're doing is altering the facts of the case, not the actual innocence or guilt of the Joker.
    • Because the Joker was visibly elsewhere at the time some of Harvey Dent's victims were killed. Its either blame Batman or admit Dent did them.
    • They couldn't say random thugs or the mob did it? Gotham was a city where stuff like this happens all the time.
      • "Random thugs" kill Salvatore Maroni? The head of the Gotham mob? Ditto for two cops and Harvey Dent? Having no suspects (which is what those boil down to) would inevitably trigger a massive investigation, which would turn up Harvey's complicity. Batman, meanwhile, is a visible figure who can be accused without any trouble, especially as he was responsible for Dent's death.
    • The purpose of accepting the murders was twofold: To remove the blame from Harvey and have him 'die a hero' and to make the criminals fear him again. Remember what Maroni said, "You got rules, the Joker, he ain't got no rules." By accepting the blame for the murders Batman lets the mob know that he no longer has a rule about not killing people, and they will fear him again.

    Don't just chuck that detonator into the body of water! 
  • Isn't throwing an electronic remote detonator into highly conductive salt water might cause an undesirable explosion?
    • Why does everybody believe the Joker about which detonator does what.
    • Probably because the detonator required a key to be turned to activate.
    • Highly conductive salt water? It wasn't an ocean, it was a river or a bay.
    • , Gotham = Chicago (plus that's where it was filmed). There are no salt water bodies in that area of the US. Plus, given Gotham's apparent condition, the "water" would have been mostly pollutants anyway.

    Why so sensitive, Joker? 
  • Why does The Joker get so pissed off whenever someone calls him crazy? Given that all other Joker incarnations have gleefully accepted the fact that they're completely Bat-Shit, why is it such a big deal for him?
    • Presumably that's a part of how he really got the scars.
    • Because the Joker isn't insane. In fact, he's the Only Sane Man.
      "You see, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve."
    • He's only crazy insofar as you see sanity conterminous with a certain framework of morality. Though nihilistic and violent, he would no doubt take pride in his firm grasp on reality, his deep understanding of psychology, and his complex schemes and experiments. Someone that smart, hard-working and successful certainly wouldn't take kindly to being called crazy.
      • con·ter·mi·nous/känˈtərmənəs/Adjective 1. Sharing a common boundary. 2. Having the same area, context, or meaning.
      • No charge.
      • Because sane people think their insane. Only insane people think that they are not.
    • Because this Joker doesn't think he's crazy and doesn't want others to think he is; he wants them to come around to his way of thinking as being the real form of sanity. When people call him crazy, it raises the possibility that he might be wrong and that everything he's doing is crazy, which he doesn't like.

    Batman said he'd rescue Rachel! He must be Bruce Wayne! 
  • Isn't the fact that Batman chooses Rachel in a Sadistic Choice, and that Gordon and the other people in the police station at the time know this, a big giveaway to his identity? Surely there's only a few people in the city who would pass up saving the rising star D.A. to save his girlfriend.
    • How many people know Bruce Wayne and Rachel Dawes' backstory together? Probably Alfred, maybe Dent and...well, that's probably pretty much it. Given Bruce's facade of dating a different girl every other week, who's going to even remember that the assistant DA was his friend as a kid? Plus, as has been established, by this point everyone knows Bruce as a Millionaire Playboy, who sleeps all day and parties all night. Who would think that he's Batman solely on the evidence that Batman chose to go after a girl that at one point in the past was a close friend of Bruce?
      • Additionally, Batman's identity is kinda clear. Bruce Wayne arrives after years of being thought dead to Gotham, and shortly afterwards, Batman appears. Batman is using really high quality, expensive stuff. Nobody has connected the dots? There's not one person with a few hours to spare and a news website and a brain in Gotham?
      • One person did connect the dots — it was a plot point. Probably quite a few people suspect that Wayne Enterprises at least funds Batman, even if they don't link him to Bruce himself.
    • Not very many people would even know that Batman was involved in Rachel's rescue at all.
    • The Joker makes it clear in the interrogation scene that he knows there's something between Batman and Rachel. Anyone who looked into the matter would find out that Rachel and the Batman had a thing going on. There'd be no reason to assume that Rachel and Batman were friends when he's out of the mask. After all, Gordon and Batman are a team, but Bruce Wayne and Gordon barely know each other.
    • Batman follows her around and thwarts the mob's attempt to murder her in Begins, and then he gives her one of the only doses of the antidote at the end. All of that would have wound up in the police reports.
    • When the Joker was taunting Batman, he was clearly implying there was something *romantic* going on between them, which would imply that she knew his secret identity. Had the third movie gone the way it was supposed to go (with Joker going on trial,Dent being the main villain, etc.), part of the plot would presumably have centered on the cops using that information to find Batman's secret identity.

    Where do you stab someone in the face with a pencil to kill them? 
  • It looks more like Joker shoved the pencil up the guy's nose, but everyone else seems to think it went into one of his eyes.
    • It always looks like it's going into his mouth.
    • It's gotta be the eye. A wooden pencil isn't going to penetrate the throat well enough to kill someone, and Joker would have to bring the head down on a really specific angle for it to have any hope of doing damage through the nose. The eye, by contrast, is a big squishy hole in the face leading directly to the brain.
    • Who knows, maybe Joker didn't do anything special with the pencil. He could've just slammed the guy's head on the table while simultaneously making the pencil disappear like a regular magician would.

    How do you trace a fingerprint from a shattered bullet? 
  • He got that brick but shot another one, analyzed the brick he shot and with the fingerprint he get... An address?
    • It's pure Hollywood Science, but here's the logic behind it: Batman takes the brick with the bullet from the room. He then shoots the same calibre bullet into the same material, with the bullet presumably marked in some way. He then analyses the bullet he shot to see how the bullet shattered. He then uses that data to virtually reconstruct the bullet he found in the wall. From that, he gets the fingerprint from when the bullet was put in the chamber. He takes the fingerprint and matches it in an Omniscient Database to find the address.

      *** Bruce does tell Alfred, in not so many words, to cross check thumbprints with identities listed in a criminal database, which presumably has their current/most recent address listed. This list is reduced by location: overlooking the parade route. Granted, this line of logic is flimsy, but its not completely random.
    • There's a more central issue to that whole scene: if you press a bullet into a magazine, you aren't touching the bullet, you're touching the bullet casing. Bruce couldn't get a fingerprint off that bullet even if everything else in that CSI process worked, because there would be no fingerprint to find. The fingerprints sure as heck weren't on the bullet stuck in the wall.

    Why speak in Bat around friends? 
  • Why does Bruce as Batman keep using the bat voice when he's alone with Lucius? Does he absolutely have to use it if he has the cowl on or something?
    • It's probably a psychological thing. While he's Batman, he has to sound like Batman. Kevin Conroy did more or less the same thing in the DCAU. He used the Batman voice even when he was alone with people who knew his secret identity, if he was in the suit.
      • Hell, he even did it when he was alone in the Batcave with Alfred, not even in costume. It's kind of his "I'm working" voice.
    • He's staying in the habit. It's important not to let yourself slip up and start talking normal. Bad enough you look like Bruce Wayne. The parts of your face that are visible, anyway.
    • And yet, the line "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" and many others from Batman Begins were clearly Bruce Voice...
      • To be fair, he was just starting out, and that particular line was being spoken to someone to whom he previously had a fairly significant emotional connection and who already clearly knew he was Bruce Wayne anyway.
    • Once the "gravelly voice" bit was introduced in Dark Knight there was a throwaway line somewhere about how he wears something in his cowl that alters his voice. Doesn't explain the scene with Alfred in the cave though.

    Joker wants you dead, why not spill the beans? 
  • When Coleman Reese is on TV, and the Joker demands he be killed so he can't reveal Batman's identity, why doesn't Reese reveal Batman's identity immediately?
    • What, and piss off the Joker more? If he keeps quiet and lasts the hour, he's in the clear. If he deliberately spoils the Joker's fun, when the Joker said he didn't want Batman to be caught, well, the Joker's not going to be happy about that.

    Joker hangs out in public in his facepaint? 
  • In the beginning of the film, when we see the Joker from behind right before he hops in the car with the other bank robbers, he's holding his mask in his hand. So he was just standing on a busy street corner in broad daylight looking the way he does, and nobody seemed to notice. At this point in the story he hasn't begun his campaign of anarchy against the city and is just some weirdo in makeup, but later both the Batman and Maroni imply they know who he is.
    • He has his face down as he's watching the 'L' train in the distance. The people on the street would just dismiss him as a clown wearing messy makeup, or perhaps even just another street performers. The real question is why the other clown-masked bank robbers didn't recognize him as the Joker. His face was definitely visible from the car, even though he immediately puts his mask on.
      • Perhaps the guys in the car just assumed he took the job really seriously.
      • He slips on the mask right as Grumpy and Chuckles screech to a stop on the corner to pick him up, so they may have had a one second glimpse, which wouldn't be enough.

    Where's the FBI in all this mess? Other superheroes? 
  • Something just occurred to me—does the Federal Bureau of Investigation not exist? For all the things the Joker did, and for all the threats he made (like blowing up a hospital, which he actually did; not to mention kidnapping a District Attorney), Gordon and the Chief of Ds would have been kicked aside as the Feds took over and tracked him down in two minutes. This goes beyond the Joker's knack for planning every little thing. Everything he did—pretty much his entire existence as an "agent of chaos"—absolutely hinged on no Federal involvement. Is there any resolution for a glaring and positively huge plot hole?
    • What, precisely, could they have done differently to "track him down in two minutes"? They're not superheroes either. People tend to grossly overestimate how effective federal agencies in general are in fiction.
      • Federal Agents wouldn't have been able to track him down in minutes, but they are experts in particular fields such as these and possess more resources. If they are brought in to battle Serial Killers who only murder a handful of people over periods of several months in out of the way locations, realistically they would have been brought in to battle the Joker. But that wouldn't have affected the movie much, no, if only because the film is named for Batman for a reason. That said, the city did bring in the National Guard after the hospital thing.
    • Not only that, but it's standard Critical Incident Response for cities to request support, logistical as well as administrative, from nearby cities in the event of a situation that overpowers their ability to respond. Even planned events, like the Olympics in Vancouver, required support from other states and agencies. Think of what a roving natural disaster like the Joker would call up. Does no one in Gotham even consider calling Metropolis to send over Superman, or New York to borrow Spidey for a little Bat support? Failing that, how about you send us some goddamn National Guardsmen with big old tanks!?
      • You mean like how the national guard did show up, in uniform and with choppers and bomb squads?
      • Most superhero movies at the time of the film's release operated under the assumption that their hero is the only one in the world. Also, Spidey belongs to a different company entirely. Plus, how would tanks have helped in stopping the Joker? It's not like he's going to war in the streets.
      • To say nothing of the fact that by bringing in tanks, you're just daring the Joker to start stealing tanks. Does the Joker in a tank sound like fun to you?
      • Moreover, this is a Gotham City. Any neighboring cities or federal agencies would just be like "Violence in Gotham, what else is new" and only make a token effort to do anything. It's not said in the movie, but perhaps most politicians at the federal level actually want to see Gotham burn to the ground.
      • There is a whole slew of tropes dealing with this problem in fiction. Superman Stays Out of Gotham because he is an utter Game-Breaker unless the Joker happen to carry some kryptonite.

    How do you get a name like Two Face anyway? 
  • What's the significance of Harvey's nickname? Is it supposed to imply that Harvey is really a double-crossing backstabber, because he never gave that impression at the beginning of the film.
    • He used to be in Internal Affairs, which meant, essentially, spying on the other cops. That's why they called him "Two Face."
    • Also, look at the coin the usually had, to flip and see.

    Sneaking a loaded (if faulty) gun into a courtroom, even in Gotham? 

    Burn victims are now immune to car crashes? 
  • How did Harvey survive the crash in the scene where he spares Maroni but shoots his driver. Even if he jumped out the window, he would have at the very least been injured. The car flipped literally seconds after Harvey shot the driver.
    • Harvey very clearly puts on his seatbelt as he's saying he's about to shoot the driver. Putting on your seatbelt does a lot to help you survive in a rollover.
    • In that case Maroni should have survived too.
    • Actually, you're wrong there. Both the fact that we see Maroni literally sit back into his seat after getting into the car (mid-instruction to the driver)and subsequent shots make it very clear that he does not have his seat belt on.

    Was the cover up the right thing to do? Or the necessary thing? 
  • Batman and Commish Gordon commit blatant obstruction of justice by covering up Harvey Dent's crimes? Forget about the people of Gotham losing hope -they aren't little kids, after all- Bats and Gordon are actually proving the Joker right by shuffling off their code at the first sign of this perceived "trouble."
    • They have a choice between covering up Dent's crimes, or letting all kinds of bad things happen ( at the very least, all the surviving mobsters would be freed ). Yes, the movie takes the point of view that the truth is not always the most important thing. Is this really any more of a Hard Truth Aesop than all the bad things ordinary people end up doing at the prompting of the Joker? Also, Bruce doesn't have any "code" that says "don't lie." His code has stuff like "help others", "save lives," and "make Gotham a better place."
      • Batman will lie to people, cheat people, and beat the crap out of people, but he won't kill them. Everything else goes. His goal was to keep the murderers and other criminals imprisoned by Harvey in jail; if he needs to lie to do that, fine.
      • Gordon and Batman didn't abandon their "code" at all. Batman has always been about doing the right thing, but understanding that he is just a tool to make Gotham a better place and will eventually go away when Gotham no longer needs him. Gordon himself also follows the spirit of the law more than the letter; he works with Batman, who is legally a vigilante and "the law" dictates that he should be arrested for that, he works with a police department filled with people suspected of being corrupt because in Gotham he is the only honest cop there is, and the common thread between both actions is that he is doing things for the good of the people of Gotham. Covering up Dent's crimes follows that; seriously there is no good that comes out of revealing it; every single criminal Dent locked up in his entire career will be set free, the people of Gotham will loose hope and fall back into the same state after the Wayne's were murdered that made Gotham what it is today, anyone who wants to believe that people are good will look at what happened to Harvey Dent and see that even the White Knight of the city could fall so far, what hope is there for anyone else? Not to mention that the police force would be demoralized and the Mob will get a second wind and undo every single victory Gordon and Dent had worked so hard for. It's not about blind adherence to rules, it's about doing what's right.
      • Not all aesops in movies have to be family friendly. The world sucks and sometimes people do crappy things in order to preserve society.
    • The Dark Knight Rises basically answers this issue- no, it was not right, and it probably wasn't worth it either since it just created a new set of problems to deal with 8 years down the line (not Bane exactly, but it gave him an excuse; Alfred lying to Bruce though turned out to turn Wayne into a recluse). Gordon, in particular, is haunted by his actions and its implied his wife left him (taking their kids) because of the lie. It bought them a temporary peace and solved their immediate problems, but fighting crime the hard way was the better way.
    • The question is loaded, because it was necessary and right at the time. It was the only thing Gordon and Batman could think of that would keep Gotham going. And as DKR proves later on, it was a temporary solution.

    Why break in to your own department? 
  • Security tells Fox that Batman broke into R&D. Doesn't Bruce Wayne have the authorization to enter his own R&D department without breaking in?
    • No, Security tells Fox that something's happening in R&D. Bruce didn't have to break in, but someone noticed that someone had set up a huge computer system and everything that was using electricity.

    I just got shot! Dammit buddy don't you know this shotgun model has a 5 shell capacity?! 
  • When one of the clowns is grazed by the bank manager's last shell, he angrily asks Joker where he learned to count. Why would he think a (supposedly) average thug would actually know the magazine capacity of that shotgun model?
    • Five shells is pretty much the standard capacity of a shotgun magazine, absent an extended magazine (which a sawed-off shotgun wouldn't have) or a rod to reduce the capacity (which wouldn't apply here, since those are used to maintain hunting regulations).
    • The clown is the one who asked the Joker if he was out; the Joker just nodded. To put it another way, the clown was an average thug too, and the average thug is hot-headed, self-centered and not all that bright.

    Harvey saved from assassination by pure chance? Who has the balls to pull that stunt? 
  • In the scene that introduces Harvey Dent in all his crime-fighting glory, Dent hits that two-bit mook with a right cross, takes his gun away and dismantles it while telling him to buy American next time... after said mook got his gun out, aimed it at his head and pulled the trigger. It's certainly plausible, but a cheap gun malfunction is all that saved Dent from getting his head blown off in the scene that's supposed to establish him as a potent, crime-fighting powerhouse.
    • It drives home a very real fact: no matter how badass you are, if some jerk with a death wish gets the drop on you, you're dead. It can happen to Dent, and it can happen to Batman, too.
      • Okay, that makes sense. It just didn't feel like it was trying to drive that home — the most (overt) we get down that road is Harvey's "I'm fine, by the way," with the emphasis on how awesome he is.
    • Well, the fact that he wasn't even slightly rattled after coming within a gnat's wing of being shot in the face has to count for something...
      • It does show his fearlessness, but it also shows his weakness: he doesn't really understand how dangerous a game he's playing, and he doesn't appreciate that he was only saved by blind luck. Later, after he's lost everything, it all hits home with a vengeance, and that's when Two-Face's belief in chance as the great equalizer is born.
      • He knows exactly what a dangerous game he is playing- he just thinks the stakes are worth it, and he knows that if he shows that he is afraid (which, by the way, he is) it would be like blood in the water and the mob would just up their game, and more importantly the wider city would struggle to keep their faith in him and the war he and Batman and Gordon are waging. Better to not only be winning, but to give the impression that you are winning. Confidence and boldness go a long way in politics and the courts.
      • The point is that it's a narrative element to showcase how luck is a major character trait - and flaw - that defines Harvey. By and large he was a very lucky man — the previous District Attorney died in Batman Begins, allowing him to ascend professionally, and he became the DA during an unprecedented time where the criminal justice system was being openly assisted by a resourceful and skilled vigilante. The fact that he survived an assassination attempt out of pure luck is just icing on the cake. Instead of acknowledging all this, he walks around declaring that he "makes his own luck" with his rigged coin. His adopting the Two-Face persona is a result of his unwillingness to accept that luck has helped him as much as it has hurt him and that he is not as much in his control as he tried to lead himself, and others, to believe. As a result of his petulance, he starts deliberately inflicting bad luck on everyone else because he thinks that he was unfairly targeted by luck - in reality, he was at no more or less risk than everyone else (note that Jim Gordon almost died, Batman also lost Rachel, etc.). Contrast with Bruce, whose infamously Crazy-Prepared nature is because he has always known that he cannot control everything, and his ability to accept this along with Alfred's reminder that those close to them were always at risk are what allow Bruce to retain his resolve, while Harvey breaks down.
    • On a side note to this topic, it was possible that the gun was deliberately faulty. It's rare (maybe not rare, but certainly unusual) for guns of even poor quality to malfunction if probably loaded. What if the mob witness had been given a gun that he, and his superiors, knew was faulty? They weren't trying to kill him at all, just scare him off. After all, killing a DA in a courtroom in front of that many witnesses would probably get you a life sentence at least. Who would agree to that? But attempted murder would get you a considerably shorter sentence and the guy would be able to reap his rewards upon leaving jail.
      • On the other hand, any mafia button man who's willing to get a life sentence for his boss is going to be set up for life. He's going to find himself extremely well taken care of in prison, particularly in a corrupt city like Gotham where even the prison guards are probably in the mob's pocket. The few inmates who don't fear and respect the guy who had the brass to shoot the DA in the face in the middle of the courtroom are going to find themselves with a knife in the back if they try to mess with him. Prison might just be a long vacation.
      • Alternatively that guy just screwed up big time and was given a choice between concrete shoes and a swim in the harbor or killing Harvey Dent.
      • He did screw up big time, he went state's evidence against the mob. It's clear from the scene that he's Dent's star witness against Maroni, and it's not like Maroni would deliberately get himself indicted. This guy was probably offered a chance to make things right, like Pentangeli from Godfather 2, and took it.

    Batman gets to vacation to Hong Kong? He's GOTHAM'S Dark Knight! 
  • Hong Kong. Wouldn't Gotham's media go crazy over the fact that their superhero was in another country? Yes, it was a once-off visit for Gotham's benefit, but even then the media should be asking questions.
    • What would they go crazy about? Batman hasn't exactly signed an exclusive contract or anything with the city or anything. And the media is already asking all kinds of questions about Batman.
    • The only people who saw him, really, are Lau's men. Even if they told someone, remember Dent snarking that Lau's "travel plans are not [Gotham's] concern"?
    • Even if the media knew about it, Batman is doing nothing more than extraditing a criminal back to Gotham for prosecution. No different than if Scarecrow had fled to a neighboring city/state and Batman had brought him back.
    • Oh no, extradition involves transfer of criminals through a legal process. Batman simply went to Hong Kong and nabbed Lau's ass, since the Chinese wouldn't allow one of their citizens to be extradited to the US.'
    • The legal term is "redention", and Batman's doing it illegally.

    This is how Gotham General treats it's ICU patients? 
  • In real life, they would definitely have his head fully wrapped than lightly place a thin layer of gauze on the side that was burned. Aside from the impracticably, it's just down right cruel.
    • Harvey has been refusing treatment. And this being the Joker, the bombs were probably dispersed through the building hidden in... get-well-soon flowers? Stuffed animals? Medical supply boxes? It's likely the building was wired to blow before he ever made the threat.

    Mighty fine threads you have there Joker... 
  • Not really a big one; but who makes Joker's clothes? Does he hire a goon to do it or does he sit at home next to a sewing machine making them?
    • Would a purple suit really be that hard to find? Beyond that, The Joker mentions that he bought it ("And by the way; the suit wasn't cheap. You autta know, you bought it.")
    • "You bought it," could be referring to the materials. Gordon says his clothing is all custom, no labels, so he probably had it custom made by a tailor (who he probably paid, then killed anyway).
      • The "You Bought It" is a joke. Joker's been stealing their money, and since the heist has acquired a bright purple suit.
    • Heck, for all we know, Joker just sewed it himself. Maybe he likes to sew things when he's not busy killing people.
      • He was able to sew a bomb inside of a human being and keep them alive afterwards, so there's some evidence of sewing/suturing skills.
      • A bomb and a cellphone.
      • The Grinch is good with a Singer; why not the Joker?

    The meaning of Dent's mantra in light of the ending. 
  • Harvey says “you either die a hero or live to become the villain.", so does that mean that because Batman was never the public hero, and he will not use the sonar system to spy on people, he will never be corrupted like Harvey was? But at the same time, if Alfred had let Bruce read the note that Rachel wrote, would he have gone bad like Dent? How is anyone’s faith being rewarded by lying to them? What did the joker threatening to blow up boats have to do with spying on people, except that it pointed out that they needed to spy on people in order to get the bad guys? Why did Harvey Dent accuse Gordon of making a deal with the devil? If the device that was used to spy on people was used to save the day, why did they destroy at the end of the movie?
    • Okay, that's a lot of difference questions. Bruce probably would have quit being Batman if he had read the note; Harvey went bad because he lost everything that mattered to him, while Bruce at that point still had a father-figure in his life. Bruce's faith in Rachel was rewarded by Alfred not breaking the news to him that she wasn't waiting for him, since the truth would have been more devastating and there's no reason to let him know since Rachel is gone. Joker's blowing up the boats had nothing to do with the spying, Batman justified the spying in order to stop the Joker, but everyone involved knew that it was simply unethical and too much power to be put into anyone's hand, since power corrupts. Hence why Batman destroys it at the end; he created it solely to stop the Joker and destroyed it to prevent it from being abused. Harvey accused Gordon of making deals with the devil in relation to the rest of his unit, since they were both betrayed by corrupt Officers, just like Harvey brought up with the first meeting with Batman.
      • In re: people's faith being rewarded by lies (Alfred burning the letter, Gordon's eulogy for Harvey) — it's easy enough to read that as Nolan undercutting the lines. Batman/Bruce is, after all, a hero who lives by deception, who hides his identity. Maybe Nolan is making a point about how what's right (telling the truth) isn't always what's good (keeping hope alive in Gotham)
      • This is arguably Nolan's favorite Aesop (concealing the truth in order to maintain purpose) as he uses it in almost all of his films (save Batman Begins and Insomnia). It's interesting to note that, from what it looks like, The Dark Knight Rises will serve to deconstruct this Aesop by revealing Harvey's crimes.
      • And in fact, it does. It's even shown that Gordon himself isn't happy with what they did, and Alfred thinks he made a mistake since Bruce just took it as an excuse to live like a hermit because he thought the woman he loved died waiting for him.

    Is that grapple gun really designed to rescue people hurtling out of a building? And so what if Bats throws himself after Rachel? 
  • Two questions: 1. How come when Batman caught the Joker with his grapple gun, it didn't result in killing him from the sudden stop? 2. Joker decides Batman must love Rachel because he jumped out the window to save her. But what's to say he wouldn't have done that for any hostage dropped out a window? What makes that act so special?
    • Presumably there was enough give to slow down Joker's momentum enough to not kill him. And his exact words "the way you threw yourself after her" showed that Joker noticed just the slightest bit that Batman clearly had something for Rachel.

    Just how bent is GPD? 
  • If nearly all of Gotham's cops are corrupt, where do all the SWAT teams come from? What about all the other cops? There were two corrupt officers who kidnap Harvey and Rachel one of whom was being blackmailed, but it seems like most of the rest are honest. Is Gotham's reputation just that bad?
    • It may not be that the actual majority of the cops are crooked, but the ones in important positions are crooked. Also, there's degrees of crookedness—not all of them are going to be at the "actively collaborating with mobsters" level.
      • And even good cops aren't omnipotent. Maybe they don't know that the guy giving them orders is being bought.
    • Gotham City being analogous to New York, the NYPD numbers about 34,500 officers. If 500 of those are corrupt in some fashion, that could very well be enough to cripple the entire police force, at least horribly fracture the public's confidence in them and their own morale. The mob wouldn't even need to buy off very many anyways. Just a few in Major Cases and Narcotics. Some in Homicide would help, maybe even Robberies if they felt it was necessary. That plus a few beat cops in areas they do business in and it's all good. One captain in their pocket, and they could practically own that precinct, giving them even more security.
    • In Batman Begins, Flass was the only member of the GCPD actually depicted as corrupt (though it is hard to tell if Ra's al Ghul's henchmen in the finale were either corrupt cops or League of Shadows men who'd gone through the police academy then rose through the rank and file). In a conversation Flass has with Gordon, he implies that the other cops are suspicious of him for not being 'on the take', which certainly indicates that corruption may be rampant in the GCPD. Gordon's dialogue in that scene indicates that there is no point in him reporting Flass anyway, at least suggesting that corruption within the department goes all the way to the top, i.e.: to Commissioner Loeb. However, since Loeb is still the Commissioner at the beginning of The Dark Knight, and is never actually depicted as being corrupt, this may simply mean that he either turns a blind eye to the corruption of others, or refuses to accept the extent of corruption in the department for political reasons. Gordon being partnered with Flass would also suggest that corruption is rife within the GCPD, since Gordon apparently sees no point in switching one corrupt partner for another. However, in a conversation with Bruce Wayne early in that same movie, Carmine Falcone explicitly stated that the mob actually rules Gotham by intimidation, so perhaps the average GCPD officer is simply afraid to carry out his duties properly; this might be a better fitting description for the patrol officers in The Dark Knight - cops more interested in going home alive at the end of their shifts than potentially sacrificing themselves in the line of duty.

    What's with Gordon's corrupt partners? 
  • 1. Since Ramirez is still alive at the end of the movie, why doesn't she ever tell anyone about Harvey's crimes? She may not have been there when he killed Maroni or Wuertz but she could at least tell people what he did to her and Gordon's family. 2. Why wasn't Wuertz already in hiding when Harvey found him? He may not have know Harvey would personally come after him but he should have suspected that he would tell Gordon and the other cops that he was working for the Joker. Anyone have any ideas?
    • It's not great mystery why Ramirez doesn't tell anyone about Dent's crimes. She's a cop. A corrupt one, yes, but maybe she wants Dent's legacy intact for the same reason Gordon's does.
      • And in addition, she'd be outing herself by telling on him. He only targeted her because she was bought.
    • It's called cutting a deal. If Ramirez doesn't reveal Harvey's murders, then Gordon won't put her in jail for the next 50 years.

    Who was the best law enforcer of the triumvirate? 
  • At the end, when trying to dissuade Two Face from murdering Gordon's son, Batman claims "Because you were the best of us!". What? Out of Gordon, Bats and Harvey? Their meeting on the GCPD rooftop earlier shows that only Batman is free to operate sans mob influence, directly or indirectly. Further, he witnessed Harvey threatening to kill the paranoid delusional earlier, and must have known he would go through with it. Is he referring Harvey's earlier lawful methods (but he saw him point the gun!)? Is he really naive enough to give him a pass on that? Is he referring to the *idea* of the White Knight? That's really the only way of describing it, given Gordon and his conversation after Harvey's death. Otherwise, when even The Joker tells you you are "truly incorruptible", how does this unhinged fallen "angel" who was said to have Maroni's men in his office have anything over you??
    • He is referring to the symbol of the "White Knight" (not to mention that Batman doesn't really consider himself a hero, or his methods worth emulating). But underneath everything, it's really just another appeal to Harvey's better nature that fails.
      • Because Harvey was the best of them. He was the one that was really doing the best for Gotham before it all happened. Gordon was with corrupt cops, Batman is a vigilante in a cape. Harvey is a DA who is cleaning the streets and doing it legally to make Gotham a better place. He's doing it by the book. When he had the gun and was threatening to kill the mobster, he was flipping his coin, which has heads on both sides. The guy didn't know that. Harvey was never going to kill ANYONE until he became Two Face. He "makes his luck" remember? He flips the coin, saying "I'll kill you if it lands on tails" and it will never land on tails. Its not this idea of a white knight, Harvey was the White Knight. He did everything by the book, for the good of Gotham, and was praised for it. Any time it looked like he was doing bad, it was revealed he wasn't. He was the best of them in the end, and he fell the hardest because of it.

    Various questions relating to the Joker's mayhem and machinations. 
  • Several questions: 1. Was the Joker relying on the third guy figuring out that Joker was going to kill him and then starting a stand-off, and then circling until he was in front of the bus at the exact second he was going to back in, or did he just want to see what happened? 2. Why did no one in the fire department report the stolen firetruck, or any civilian report that there was a burning truck in the middle of a road? Furthermore, why did the trucks go down onto lower 5th where they were explicitly described as sitting ducks and not around the block? 3. How does the bomb in the police office knock every police officer out, but leaves the Joker and Lau completely unscathed, to the point where the Joker can, completely unmolested, pick up Lau and leave with him? 4. Why did the newspaper print Mayor Garcia's obituary (or at least report that it was sent in) and then police department had him march anyway? 5. How on Earth did the Joker sneak in a replacement honor guard, none of whom look anything like the real honor guard, and one of whom has a nametag reading "Officer Rachel Dawes" and another of whom is THE JOKER HIMSELF (albeit without the facepaint, but with the scars)? 6. And how did the Joker get through the call screener on Mike Engle's show?
    • 1. This one kind of depends on your interpretation of the Joker. Might have been a very tightly timed plan, or a lucky Indy Ploy.
    • 2. Who says the fire truck wasn't reported? The team transporting Harvey Dent had bigger problems. And, for that matter, who says it was stolen? Maybe what happened was the Joker or an accomplice called the fire department to lure the truck to Wacker Drive, then opened fire on the truck with his bazooka when it showed up. This could have happened seconds before the caravan of cop cars showed up; not enough time to communicate it to the drivers.
      • If you look closely when the camera car goes by the fire truck at street level, there appears to be debris from the vehicle on the ground in front of it, but pausing it makes it look from some angles like the fire truck is only on fire, not blown up. The 'debris' on fire appears to be burning fabric, i.e. the bodies of the firefighters. This means that the most likely answer is: the Joker lured a fire truck to Wacker Drive, and then attacked it with his bazooka, and shot the survivors who tried to escape.
    • 3. Lots of the cops had left to try to save Harvey; many of the remaining ones were gathered around the fat crazy guy who was ringing for some reason. They're dead. That doesn't leave many; the remaining few may have been killed, knocked out, hit the deck in terror and stayed frozen with fear, or just pooped themselves and run away.
    • 4. The mayor was probably warned NOT to march, but didn't want to seem like he was letting the terrorists win by hiding scared, which is what he thought they wanted. Plus, the Joker probably threatened to murder the editor unless he ran the editorial.
    • 5. The Joker is very slippery and a lot of the authorities are very corrupt; a combination of sneakiness and bribery.
    • 6. He probably just called the front desk, and told the poor receptionist, "I'm the Joker. Please put me through immediately, or I will kill everyone you know."
    • 4. The Joker and his gang acquired the honor guard rifles and uniforms by kidnapping the real honor guard and tying them up in that apartment. The Joker didn't show up at the police station, sans makeup, and apply for a position in the 21-gun salute then, after being legitimately selected, somehow convince the other six officers to fire on the mayor with him.

    Batman caving Scarecrow's van in. 
  • In the beginning, when Batman lands on Scarecrow's van, why does the van stop suddenly? And why isn't Scarecrow severely injured from having the van's roof cave in on him?
    • It stopped because Crane freaked out after the roof cave in and hit the brakes in a panic. As to the roof thing, presumably it only caved in a certain amount.

    Psychopaths are surprisingly persuasive. 
  • How in the hell did the Joker convince Harvey Dent to see things from his point of view? "Hey, this psychopath murdered the woman I love and scarred half my face. I think I'm going to listen to what he has to say!"
    • Because his world has come crashing down on him, he's horribly scarred, his already strained psyche has now broken down entirely, the love of his life is dead, and in his eyes, every single person he ever put his trust in has betrayed him. He was in an extremely vulnerable emotional state and The Joker knew exactly how to push his buttons; by pointing out that he's just a rabid dog who's been set loose and that the real people who're at fault are the ones who let him off his chain.
    • Simply put, Harvey just isn't in the condition to think logically and make rational decisions at that point, and that is what Joker is taking advantage of.

    Was it worth hiring the Joker? Like, at all? 
  • So why on earth did the mob hire the Joker? It was clear from their first meeting that they knew he was insane, unstable, and homicidal. Are they just going to forgive the fact that he killed one of their men with a PENCIL? Seriously, why are they surprised when the Joker turns on them?
    • Because they were desperate as hell to get rid of Batman. Alfred spells this out to Bruce.
    • Why id they ignore the guy the Joker kill with the pencil? This guy was a high ranking mobster, enough so to warrant him being present in the meeting and the Joker murders him and the mobsters just kind of ignored his death. Joker clearly has no problem killing and/or robbing mobsters so why would they get HIM of all people to kill Batman when he could just as easily turn on them.
      • The way Gambol signals him to remove the Joker from the room clearly implies he's just an expendable mafia goon, hardly enough for the crime bosses to get their panties in a bunch over, and the only guy who could potentially give a crap about his death is killed himself in relatively short order.
    • Not all of them wanted him. Gambol didn't want him and it was his man who was killed. The Chechen looked impressed by the pencil killing, and he was the most eager to hire Joker. Maroni only looked interested once the Joker started to explain his plan. Once Gambol was killed and Dent took things into high gear, then that's when they got desperate enough to hire him.
    • Because the one guy objecting to his offer was dead, the one guy who both had all their money and could bring them all down with a word was in police custody, and The Batman just proved to them that nowhere is safe for them. They had no other options left and were looking down life in prison.

    Did the civilians cross the Moral Event Horizon? Does the Joker have a point? 
  • The Joker's plan with the boats is seen as a failure and he didn't actually corrupt the Gothamites who "made the right choice". However... The civilian boat held a vote, and the majority of them decided to just kill off the prisoner boat, no questions asked. They just don't go through with it. Not out of moral concerns (else the vote would've ended up different), but because no one is willing to take the blame. One guy volunteers to do it, but backs down eventually. No one tries to stop him at any point. So, what can we learn from this? The citizens of Gotham are okay with offing the passengers of the prisoner boat, but only if someone else does it on their behalf? Or they're eager to condemn someone to death and only start having doubts at the last moment, not when, you know, they were actually voting for it? And once again - no one intervenes. How is this a moral victory for Gotham again?
    • It's not about taking the blame. It's about being willing to kill. The "blame" would've been on the vote. It's a victory for Gotham because even among the people on the boat who voted to kill, none of them went through with it. It's one thing to say that you would do something hypothetically and another thing to actually do it when given the opportunity. The old saying goes "actions speak louder than words." In this case, actions speak louder than a vote for someone else to do something. And the action here is that they didn't pull the trigger.
    • Notice also how it's the guy who is most vocal about pushing the button on the convicts who ends up with the trigger at the crunch point... and at the end, even he can't bring himself to do it. Talk is one thing, but it's what you actually end up doing that proves who you are.

    Bats' new wrist blade gadgets. 
  • Batman's shootable arm blades were strong enough to embed themselves in a metal wall. How did the Joker take them to the face without even a scratch?
    • Probably they just didn't hit him with the sharp parts.
    • But that's a pretty big flaw in a close range weapon, since it's designed to inflict a wound.
    • They just grazed him, and they did cut him; hence Batman's quip "I know how you got these [scars]!"

    The security or lack thereof around the Joker after the interrogation scene. 
Alright, about the phone call scene: several questions.
  • 1. Why didn't the guy guarding the Joker after Gordon left have a gun? Joker's seen holding a piece of glass to his throat when he holds him hostage, but not a gun.
  • 2. Why didn't the guy guard the cell from the outside rather than inside? They could see whatever Joker would be doing through the windows.
  • 3. Why not just move Joker back to his cell?
  • 4. Why didn't they re-handcuff the Joker?
  • 5. Why did the explosion from the fat guy kill everybody but the Joker?
    • To answer you... 1) He probably did have a gun but the cop wanted to rough up the Joker a little not shoot him. You can see him coming at the Joker with his fists. The Joker's quick and so probably just grabbed him and held the glass to his throat. The reason why Joker didn't use a gun is, as he says, he likes knives better. 2) Yes, they could see whatever he was doing but, as shown when Batman interrogated the Joker, they could be locked out if Joker wedged a chair between the door. They learned from Batman and made sure Joker didn't try anything in the cell. And, they had no idea Joker would hold the cop hostage. 3) No idea on that one, but maybe they didn't want him to try anything on the way to his cell? Or maybe it was police procedure? 4) Simply because they saw no need to. Why handcuff him when he's already been roughed up by Batman, in a secure room with a capable cop guarding him. 5) It didn't kill everyone but the Joker. It killed the cops and medical people near the fat guy but it just knocked everyone to their feet in the room with Joker. Joker knew the bomb was coming so he had time to brace himself.
    • #5: The Trope Namer.

    Why not double cross a murdering, terrifying psycho without a cause? 
  • The Joker has got no rules. Nobody will cross him for Batman. Fridge Logic: You cross him or not, the Joker will still fuck you. That's all he wants from the beginning; he's got no rules. Question: So why don't people cross him anyway?
    • Because people don't get that he will screw them no matter what. The whole reason the Joker is able to seize power and cause so much damage is because no one can even comprehend the Joker's utter lack of interest in little things like money, power, respect or even just staying alive. The mob assumes the Joker won't screw them because he wants their money. The regular people of Gotham assume that if they do what the Joker says, he'll leave them alone since that's how it always works with these mob types. The mob, the citizens, the cops and Batman have trouble even beginning to imagine that the Joker doesn't want or fear anything, because everything, especially human suffering, is just a joke. They all assume he's like everyone else, and many think that means they can find things to hold over his head. It becomes clearer and clearer that the Joker has no agenda and is just a crazy sadistic asshole, but by the end of the film, it's too late to do anything about it.
    • The Joker didn't give them many opportunities to cross him. He starts off by murdering Gambol and absorbing his organization into his own, which sends a pretty clear message to Maroni and the Chechen about how pissing the Joker off is a bad idea. Also, the mob wouldn't have wanted to betray the Joker until after Lau was secured, so they're pretty much stuck with him until after he pulls off his heist in the MCU. Immediately afterwards, Maroni does betray the Joker, and the Joker simply adapts to the situation by distracting the cops with a different threat.

    Oh don't mind me, I'm just absconding to Hong Kong with the entire Russian ballet troupe. Nope, I'm not The Batman! 
  • How does the Russian ballet work as an alibi? As soon as anyone talks to the dancers (assuming they don't give an interview when they get back), they'll learn that Mr. Wayne left for several hours in a small, suspicious-looking aircraft looking much like that used by South Korean smugglers. Him being Batman is unbelievable anyway, but the point of an alibi sort of falls apart when everyone there can testify to you jumping in a plane and vanishing.
    • Bruce Wayne is footing the bill for the entire Russian ballet troupe to spend several very pleasant and relaxing days on a big boat in beautiful surroundings, doubtlessly with lots of partying and fun along with it. You really think after all that any of them is going to object too strongly or feel compelled to shout it from the rooftops if he tells them "Oh, by the way, I have to slip away briefly in this sea-boat for reasons you don't have to worry about, so just sit back, keep sunbathing and if anyone asks, I was here the whole time"? They probably forgot all about it by the next cocktail.
    • Plus, for all the dancers know Bruce just decided to go skydiving or parasailing or something - the guy just made off with an entire ballet company on a whim, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. They're not stupid but it's unlikely they'd figure "oh that's a smuggler's plane, he's going to Hong Kong to kidnap a foreign national." It's a long series of stretches from one point to another.
    • Also: what's the conservative estimate on how many gallons of alcohol was being drunk at that party, how many other more illicit substances were being consumed, how many people were quickly distracted by the possibility of slipping away and having sex with a beautiful person, and so on? In short, what's the likelihood that anyone on that boat didn't end up blackout hammered enough to even remember Bruce Wayne being sucked up by a seaplane at some point in the party? Or, if they somehow did, how many of them didn't immediately dismiss it as a drunken hallucination while they were the throes of the worst hangover of all time?

    Bats and Gordon know about Dent's actions without being told? 
  • At the end of the movie, how did Gordon and Batman know that Harvey Dent had killed five people? They seemed completely unaware that Harvey had gone off the deep end until the Joker told Batman, and that was only just the scene before.
    • There's probably some deleted scene where Harvey explains to Gordon exactly what he's done so far, but it was cut for time or pacing.

    These cops have a fast response time... for bank robberies anyway! 
  • Why did the cops arrive at the bank in the opening so quickly? One of the first thing the goons did was disable the silent alarm, and they said it was going to a private number (probably a mob-controlled private security firm) rather than the police.
    • What do you mean "so quickly"? The police didn't arrive at that bank at all.
    • Oh they definitely did. Right after Joker pulls the bus out of the bank and drives away, cop cars immediately pull up to the bank. Perhaps one of the bank tellers phoned 911 while they were hiding? Or maybe someone called from outside the bank after they heard a ton of gunfire from inside.

    Would the Tumbler have worked to save her where the Batpod didn't? 
  • Could Batman have reached Rachel in time if the Tumbler had still been in one piece?
    • That wouldn't have made any difference, since he was going the wrong direction.

    Who's that trigger happy loony? 
  • Who is that who is shooting into the air when Harvey is approaching the ambulance containing Thomas Schiff? Is it a Joker goon?
    • Most likely. You could presume it was one of his guys who managed to blend into the chaos right after Joker shot Gordon by mistake, and then tried to get off one more shot of opportunity at either the mayor or perhaps Dent. But a cop managed to intercepted him, and the subsequent shots are him firing in the air in desperation as the cop holds his arm up into the sky to keep the situation relatively safe.

    My Dogs are Dumb... 
  • So the Chechen's goons just saw the Joker burn up not only one of their friends but the money with which they get paid for doing their crimes, so what do they do? They don't listen to their boss and shoot Joker on the spot, they listen to the Joker and drag their boss away to kill him. Many criminals are cowards but are they this cowardly? The Joker didn't even have the heavy weaponry that the goons had, they could have easily killed him even if he killed their boss. Why would they listen to this guy at all?
    • They didn't have a choice. The Joker had a gun in the Chechen's face, and men loyal to the Joker had gotten the drop on them and were basically holding them at gunpoint. If they tried anything, they'd have been shot before they could even get the guns out of their holsters.

    What if Gordon and his family were spared by the coin? 
  • Would Harvey have walked away from the scene? That would be kinda awkward.
    • He might have tried to find an excuse like he did for Maroni, or strand them or something. Or he might let them live because it'd keep to his word about the fairness of chance. After all, he was willing to shoot himself if the coin said so.
    • Harvey doesn't seem to care what happens to him afterwards. He seemed disappointed when his coin ended up heads. He probably doesn't have a plan for what happens if Gordon is spared.

    A nurse in clown makeup is not odd at all? 
  • Seriously, Harvey didn't know the nurse was Joker until he took off his surgical mask.
    • He was just caught in an explosion, still disorientated and in pain, and one of his eyes was nearly roasted. His vision might not have been that great yet.

    Chechen leading Russian Mafiya 
  • The leader of Russian Mob is called the Chechen. An actual Chechen can not lead Russian gang simply because Chechens and Russians hate each other's guts. It may be a nickname, but it's really weird to nickname a Russian man "Chechen".
    • His goons are of Chechen ethnicity.
    • Dennis O'Neil's novelization gives him several pages of backstory (seriously), but the short version is that yes, he's native to Chechnya, and his original mob did get squashed by the Russian military. His current mob was recruited from a Chechen ethnic neighborhood in Gotham's neighbouring city Bludhaven.

    What makes Maroni so special? 
  • So, Harvey decides to take revenge on everyone responsible for Rachel's death. When confronted with the choice to flip to decide whether The Joker lives or dies, Harvey lets him go. Then when deciding Wuertz's fate and Ramirez's fate, he kills him and lets her go. But for Maroni, he flips good side. Then, in a very blatant case of Loophole Abuse worthy of Batman's "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" rationale, he flips for Maroni's driver, a man who has absolutely no involvement in Rachel's death whatsoever, and wouldn't you know it, it lands on bad side, thus giving him all the excuse he needs to shoot the driver and smash the car, killing both Maroni and his driver. It was clear Dent really wanted Maroni to die, but why not apply that very same Loophole Abuse to The Joker, the one most directly responsible for Rachel's death by setting the events in motion? Made even more confusing when Harvey more or less dismisses The Joker's involvement at the very same time with the shrug, "Joker's just a mad dog." What makes Maroni so special?
    • He flipped for Joker. It just came out heads, so he let him live. He had no possibility of a Loophole Abuse, unlike Maroni. If Joker was in a car at the time, it's entirely possible Dent would have pulled the same trick. Additionally, if Maroni wasn't in a car, he might've lived through the movie. It was mostly a matter of the opportunity presenting itself. Dent wasn't exactly in a good place by this time.
    • Plus, a Fridge Brilliance entry lays out that that driver may in fact very well have driven Rachel to her death, so he's definitely ripe for judgement. As for how this loops back to Maroni? Well, Dent would probably argue it's on him for not putting his seatbelt on...
      • In the above scenario, he may not have been specifically expecting Maroni to die, but he wouldn't be shedding any tears for him and he'd consider it an added bonus.

    Why not call for ground backup? 
  • In the car chase, why doesn't Gordon or the officer riding shotgun with him in the armored car call for ground backup (as in, patrol units) the moment the Joker ambushes the convoy? Once they got above ground, the patrol units would easily be able to intercept the Joker's truck without the Batpod needing to do the work.
    • The plan is to get the Joker to let his guard down so that they can arrest him, and to rely on the Batman for support. Calling in ground support prematurely, from their perspective, might scare him off.

    Different GCPD paint job? 
  • Has the GCPD done some modifications to the paint job used on marked patrol cars since Batman Begins? It looks like they reversed the wording on the passenger's side doors to say "POLICE GPD" instead of "GPD POLICE" while the wording on the driver's side is unchanged, and maybe they've done something with the roof-mounted emergency lights?

    Number of cop fatalities during the car chase? 
  • There are at least three: the helicopter pilots, and that one cop the Joker killed with the manager's shotgun at the roadblock. Could any of the other cops have died (the police officer driving the car that is attacked with a bazooka, or the occupants of the SWAT truck forced into the Chicago River)?

    No federal law enforcement agencies? 
  • Wouldn't the FBI be involved in the Joker manhunt? Even though the bank was technically a mob bank, it's still federally insured, meaning that the FBI would investigate. The FBI would be involved in cracking down on the Gotham mobs. And the ATF would be involved because of the Joker's heavy use of explosives.
    • Out of universe: law of conservation of detail. Within universe: if the timeline depicted in the movie is rapid enough (say only taking place over a week or so), and Joker has only escalated to using explosives openly over that week, then there's not enough time for the investigation to get to the point where the cops feel they need to call in federal assistance, or the feds to mandate it regardless of the view of the cops.

    Blowing up an empty hospital 
  • Why didn't the Joker somehow sneak Dent out of the hospital, then blow it up without making his threat against Coleman Reese on the talk show, while there were still hundreds of people inside?
    • If Joker had tried to raid the hospital while there was no threat, there'd be a bunch of security inside defending Dent and he would need a hundred goons to keep all the patients inside. Sneaking into Dent's room while the hospital was being evacuated was better for him because the security was busy trying to get everybody out. It also made it unclear which hospital he was targeting; all the henchmen needed for a hostage bombing would be it very obvious which place the police should assault. In short, announcing the threat created chaos that he could hide in, and the Joker is an agent of chaos.
      • Why couldn't he have done another Kansas City Shuffle?
      • It wouldn't be as effective in this case, especially since the Joker already tried that trick. Mainly, though, no matter what Joker says, the GCPD is going to prioritize Gotham General because Harvey is checked in there. Gordon is going to assume Joker knows this because he knows the Joker has informants in his unit (he admits as much to Harvey), and Joker knows that Gordon knows he knows, because he also indicated that his cops are working for him during his breakout from the MCU. Basically, in this case, the Kansas City Shuffle is Joker doing exactly what he said he was going to do. Because it's the Joker.

    Innocents on the prisoner boat 
  • There is a big moral debate among the civilians on the boat over whether killing the prisoners is justified. But why doesn't anyone consider that they would also be killing the prison guards and the ship's crew onboard as well?
    • There were a couple hundred people on both boats. Maybe the inmate on the prison boat probably considered that, and what's to say that some of the people on the civilian boat didn't think that, too?
      • True, but you'd think that when the civilians were arguing over blowing up the other boat, someone would bring that up as a counterpoint.
      • This is exactly a point the Joker brings up in his Breaking Speech to Harvey: Nobody panics if the expected people die. If those prison guards blew up with the prisoners, so what? It'd be no different than if they got killed in a prison riot, because it's all "part of the plan."

    "Here's my card." 
  • Obviously, the mob has no idea who the Joker is, so he leaves a calling-card for them to contact him. The thing is, the calling card was a simple joker card from a normal playing deck. There appeared to be no phone number or any contact information. How did the mob contact him? What's the point of the card outside of a visual pun?
    • Well, he wasn't invited to the meeting. He only made clear what he was up to when he made that pencil disappear. And the Joker probably never intended for them to contact him at all, given how shortly afterwards he kills off Gambol.
    • Disagree. Beyond being a funny Visual Pun, we only see one side of the joker card. He probably wrote the unlisted telephone number to contact him at on the other side. He's psycho and "an agent of chaos", yes, but at this point he genuinely intends for them to contact him so he can burn their money and use it to help fund his war against Batman. He kills Gambol because a) he put a hit out on him b) he's the only mob leader to refuse his "business offer" and c) to send a message to the other leaders. And it's clear they did contact him as a response to their accountant's arrest. Maroni also has at least a working idea of where to find him. Personally one would much rather call the Joker than physically seek him out. Not that even a phone call is straightforward and risk-free when dealing with the Joker, even if you take precautions like not using names.

    "Two-Face threatening to shoot Gordon's wife and kids" 
  • The death of a girlfriend, and having half of your face burned off, can cause a man to snap and kill everyone responsible, but to put a gun to a child's head? He was only going after the crooks and corrupt cops like a Punisher type anti-hero, but Gordon's family are innocent.
    • He explains this in the scene. He wants to punish Gordon, and to inflict on him the same pain he himself felt. Also, he's kind of insane. He's not thinking logically. Why do you expect him to?
    • To explain it more, he's putting Gordon in the same situation he himself was in. He had to sit, helpless, and tell his family (in this case, his fiancee) that everything was going to be all right, even though he knew it wasn't. He forced the same thing on Gordon, making him tell his son that everything was going to be all right, even though, at the moment, his life depended on the flip of a coin, as far as Two-Face was concerned.
    • In short, Dent thinks that the worst punishment for Gordon wouldn't be Gordon dying, but living with the knowledge that his son died because of him.

    Chuckles and the bank manager 
  • In the prologue, the Joker has every bank robber kill another, at which point they are then killed themselves, EG. Happy kills Dopey, Grumpy kills Happy, the Bus Driver kills Grumpy, the Joker kills the Bus driver. But Chuckles is shot by the bank manager. Did Joker anticipate this happening? Was Chuckles part of the plan?
    • It's never made clear. It's possible that the Joker didn't plan on this. Had that been the case, Chuckles would've killed Grumpy, as Grumpy had shot Happy, the bus driver would've killed Chuckles, and the Joker would still kill the bus driver. But the Joker also is known for thinking on his feet, and since he knew that this was a mob bank, he could've already assumed the manager was packing. Thus he had Chuckles stand, with back to the door, so the manager would take him out, and then had Grumpy place the bags by the door so he'd be run over by the bus.

    Convoy chase and the trap 

  • The convoy chase scene, where they divert down onto Lower Wacker Drive. Bearing in mind that this is a police convoy on closed streets, it would have been entirely possible to bend the laws of the road to stick to their defined route and keep their air support. Yes, it was an attempt to draw out the Joker, but that's not a good excuse to waltz into an unknown trap.
    • Wasn't their planned route blocked by, y'know, a flaming fire truck? The most important thing for a convoy to do is to keep moving, even if you suspect an ambush.
    • Their side of the road was blocked, the "wrong side" of the road was available, and there was no on-coming traffic because the police had cleared the route.
    • If you take a close look at the top of the shot (maybe easier if you have the IMAX view) the "wrong side" is actually blocked by police vehicles to prevent oncoming traffic from passing through. The convoy would've had to stop in order for the blockade to be removed, and any amount of stop time could mean death. Moving to Lower Wacker Drive was the "best" option.
      • They could've just rammed the blocking cars.
    • The entire point was to drive into the trap. They could have done twenty other things if they intended to get Dent to jail safely, but that wasn't the idea. If they deviate away from the route the Joker is clearly sending them down, he might not spring the trap at all.

    Chase and lines 

  • Also in the chase scene, how did the clowns know where to launch their lines to fuck up the helicopter? It could've ascended at any time.
    • One has to assume that the Joker set them up at the first off-route off of Wacker Drive, assuming that if they made it out of his trap they would immediately look for air support.
    • What the original troper asked still holds though. You're talking about them setting up on a specific street and pair of buildings, which is fine to a point. But what if the chopper ascended or descended from that height? How many more line shooters does Joker have throughout the buildings, or over that whole block?
    • The Joker has informants in Gordon's unit. It's possible he had a rough idea of what the escort route was and where air support would come into play.

    Five chairs 

  • If the giant sonar grid imager was only to be used by Lucius Fox and Bruce knew it would be destroyed after the Joker was captured, why does it have five identical chairs and computer stations?
    • Looks. It's in a (for Batman) public area that more people than just Lucius can get into. Even if Wayne restricted access to that room, someone had to build it. Hence the need for it to look normal. Another option could be that the computer was repurposed from something else and tossing out the extra chairs was an unnecessary opening for questions.
    • For that matter, it might have taken a whole bunch of programmers to build. You might need five very good coders to finish that sort of thing, even after it was mostly assembled.

    I couldn't risk my family's safety. 
  • At one point in the movie Gordon fakes his death, and even lets one of his cops break the news to his family. Later on he said it was because he couldn't risk their safety. Except... Joker wasn't gunning for him, at least any more than any other cop. And neither was the mob, despite that Gordon's the head of the unit. It's more of a 'just in case' thing while they attempt to capture the Joker, but we're given no indication that him being alive would lead to his family being in danger from either of the big threats at that time (Joker and the mob).
    • The Joker had previously assassinated Commissioner Loeb. As next-in-line, it's reasonable for Gordon to take some precautions, especially since he's the head of the Joker investigation. It's not unusual for the mob to threaten loved ones (Carmine Falcone says as much to Bruce in Batman Begins), so there is precedent for his decision. Gordon is also promoted to Commissioner immediately upon coming back, so it's very likely that he had had a discussion with the mayor about the need for a new Commissioner after Loeb's assassination, and that's when Gordon's concerns were raised, resulting in the plan.

    The nickname 
This is extremely minor, but why is Harvey's unflattering nick-name at the end of his name? Harvey Two-Face. Looking at it shouldn't it come BEFORE his name? (and have a 'd') "There goes Two-Faced Harvey."
  • It's a common format for mob nicknames to have the nickname at the end of the name. Given how large a role the mob plays in Gotham, including within the police force, it's not surprising that they'd format Harvey's nickname accordingly.

     What does Alfred have against Harvey Dent? 
There's a scene where Bruce has a dancer for a ballet at a restaurant, and Harvey mentions they're going there next week. A little later Bruce takes the entire group out on his yacht as a cover for doing Batman stuff in Hong Kong, making it seem like Bruce did it just to ruin the date between Harvey and Rachel. EXCEPT that it wasn't Bruce's idea. The previous scene has Bruce asking Alfred if he's thought of an alibi for him being away, and Alfred says he has. So did Alfred ruin the date because he's a "Bruchel" shipper, or was it just an amazing coincidence?

    "We burned the forest down." This whole headscratcher came from watching this video, which spoofs the scene from the movie. While it might go into overly long gag territory it does make a quite a few points. Namely, "You said some men want to watch the world burn, so you burned down a forest? You did him a favor." Alfred basically committed eco-terrorism, destroying an untold number of animal lives in the service of catching a single bandit. They were trying to win the loyalty of local warlords with the stones, and there's always the chance the jewels were in the forest they burned. Never mind that these warlords might not appreciate these outsiders causing a gigantic fire in their territory, even if they retrieved the jewels. "Yeah, sorry about burning part of your ecosystem to the ground, but here's a big jewel. That makes everything better, right?" The whole thought of it makes Alfred look like a right bastard. And while the movie splits the scenes up the video puts Alfred relaying the story and then answering Bruce's question of how they caught him together. When you look at it like that Alfred's solution comes off as burn down the city to smoke out the Joker. Not very inspirational.
  • Alfred never intended to tell that second part of the story, as it doesn't seem to him to pertain to Bruce's situation, and it possibly gives bad advice. He doesn't say that part to Bruce until he straight up asks him.
  • Eco-terrorism? Animal lives? Alfred's unit burned down the forest killing everyone in it. They destroyed the forest that was hiding the bandit's gang and the villagers who were giving him shelter. The local warlords, the colonial government, and possibly Alfred in his younger ruthless days, likely viewed it as a necessary act of counter-insurgency. But he's not proud of that act now, and he's certainly not suggesting that Bruce burn down Gotham since Bruce turned down that option in the last movie.
    • When did he ever say that "burning the forest down" involved killing people? They could have forced everyone to evacuate before they burned the place. It would still leave him with regret from destroying people's homes or whatever, but he wouldn't have actually killed any innocent people in that scenario.
  • Alfred's time in Burma was likely during British colonialism or immediately afterwards. There's a reason Burma didn't exactly have great relations with the British during that time. Alfred's a product of his experiences, and his willingness to go along with the relative extremism of the Batman (in comparison to, say, Rachel or pre-breakdown Harvey) has to come from somewhere. Keep in mind that Alfred's likely killed more people than Bruce has. This story is actually in character for Alfred.
  • In context, Alfred is discussing with Bruce how his decision to become Batman has led the mob to turn to something they didn't quite understand. He's talking about the serial escalation that led to the mob hiring the Joker. The fact that Alfred burned the forest down is a cautionary tale about the potential consequences of this serial escalation - regret. He's trying to get Bruce to be realistic about where his path as Batman might lead, which is consistent with the choices Alfred makes in The Dark Knight Rises.

     Deranged killer in the car? I'll keep driving, boss. 
During the scene where Dent kills Maroni the mobster DOES say "Don't stop for lights, cops, nothin'." Even so, does the driver NOT notice the burned DA they've been trying to kill sitting next to his boss, threatening to kill him?
  • There's not much he can do. For all he knows, if he takes any drastic action, Harvey might kill both of them then and there.
  • Also, to an eavesdropper who can't see what's going on, it would sound like Maroni and Harvey are simply negotiating. The driver may have concluded that the best chance of everyone getting through the situation alive was to not interfere.

    Let's abandon capturing the Joker 
  • Thee's a priority shift of trying to evacuate the hospitals when Joker threatens to blow one up, but right before that they had all been gearing up to storm the place where Maroni told them he was going to be. If there was a possibility of stopping the explosion by taking down the Joker shouldn't they have sent at least one squad car to the location? I mean, Joker winds up going to the very hospital he plans to blow up, but they didn't know that.
    • Sending only one or even a few squad cars to the Joker's location probably didn't seem effective or worth the resources because of how thoroughly the Joker has trounced the GCPD when faced with much more resistance. They might also have been afraid that provoking the Joker could result in a premature detonation.

     Torturing the Joker? 
  • How in the hell was Batman allowed to be so brutal to the Joker during the interrogation? Even before the GCPD tried to intervene, he already smashed Joker's face into a desk, punched his hand, and threw him into a wall, and the GCPD just sat by. Bringing in an external vigilante to torture a suspect would put the GCPD in quite a bit of legal trouble.
    • If you shoot even one cop in reality, the rest are coming for you guns blazing. There is a long history of suspects being abused even worse than that, for crimes not 1/10th as severe as what the Joker committed during the attack on the convoy.
    • The GCPD isn't known for being squeaky clean, and Gordon's collaboration with Batman is more an open secret than a publicly sanctioned policy. Even so, the other cops are evidently uncomfortable with Batman's behavior during the interrogation, and it's Gordon who tries to reassure them. They're looking for Gordon to guidance, and Gordon is biased in favor of Batman. That's why things were able to go as far as they did.

     Why did he call himself The Joker? 
  • In the comics, it makes sense. Here, he is a terrorist in clown makeup. Is it like Watchmen where Comedian gives himself the name because he thinks life is a big joke to him?
    • Basically, yes. His primary stated goal in the film is to get others to see things his way, or, in other words, to get them in on the joke. The line that gives it away happens during his conversation with Batman in the interrogation room:
      Joker: "You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble."
    • It also suits his MO. Many of his plans, while Darker and Edgier than those of his comic counterpart, are ultimately ultraviolent practical jokes. He fools the criminals during the bank heist into shooting each other one after the other, he pulls a switcheroo on Batman and Gordon when they're trying to save Rachel and Harvey, and he switches the hostages with the thugs during the final showdown to fool the police.
    • Joker talks a lot about how he sees himself and the Batman as the same. Batman styled himself as a bat because he fears bats, and wants others to share his dread. People also fear clowns, which might explain why the Joker chose to also adopt the appearance of one - to mirror the Batman's logic in a more twisted fashion.

     Faking Gordon's Death 
  • How did they manage to keep Gordon's survival a secret from his wife? Wouldn't she have wanted to claim his body for burial? What would they have told her?
    • Gordon only faked his death for a couple of days before resurfacing. It's common practice for there to be a delay in releasing the bodies of homicide victims to the families, because the body is considered primary evidence. This would have been the explanation given to Barbara.
      • Depending on how long Gordon had to stay "dead", Stephens may also have made an excuse that with all the people the Joker killed, the morgue had been backed up with corpses to be autopsied, so Gordon's autopsy would just have to wait in line.
      • What autopsy? You do an autopsy to find out why someone died. Gordon was shot in broad daylight in front of hundreds of people and apparently died on the spot. There'd be no reason to perform an autopsy.
      • Not so. Depending on your jurisdiction, homicide victims have to be inspected by the coroner and the cause of death put to report by the same coroner, even if the cause is blatantly obvious, like decapitation. That's still, in legal terms, an "autopsy."

     Did they miss the "prisoners" part? 
  • There are two boats, civilians and prisoners. The civilians immediately assume that the violent criminals on the prisoner boat will decide to blow up their boat. But... they're prisoners. Prisoners are not typically burdened with an abundance of decision making capacity. Did the civilians think it was just a big free for all on the boat full of convicted felons with no guards?
    • Yes. That is the whole point of the Joker's game, to demonstrate how people are misinformed, dumb, and prejudiced.
    • They would also assume that the prisoners would, if necessary, overwhelm the guards. Any guards are outnumbered by violent convicts and it's not like backup is available.

     HIT ME! 
  • Batman flips the truck, does a 180 and is now on a collision course with the Joker. Joker is trying to goad him into running him over. But is the Batpod even capable of this? Would a regular motorcycle effectively run someone over as a larger vehicle could? "Effectively", as in, in the sense that yeah the person being run over could be severely hurt or die, but the impact at that speed would either cause the rider to smash face first into the victim or even lead them to fly straight over the victim and into the ground/a vertical obstacle. In any event, this impact would be at least as damaging for the rider as it would be for the victim. Remember that Batman's lower face is exposed and would suffer extreme injury even if we assumed that the rest of the helmet offers perfect impact protection (and given the realism of this universe, we know that it doesn't). Now, the Batpod has bigger wheels than just any old hog, but would that change the dynamics of the collision overly much? With that in mind, why does this scene play out like it does? Joker might well irrationally want a Suicide by Cop / Mutual Kill from this situation (because he's crazy), but Batman has to have more logic than to think he'll come out lightly from that kind of impact, right? The scene is about the temptation Bats has to just resort to killing his nemesis and removing him from the picture, but logically it's a bit shaky. The vehicle does have mounted machine guns, after all, but it doesn't work as well dramatically to show Batman's trigger finger hovering rather than for this head-on impact setup. And you have to figure that he isn't just acting (because of the setup the city engineers to arrest Joker), there's some genuine consideration about whether to run him down and also a scream when that decision is in the immediate future. In summary: what would the crash look like in this situation, and given that, what is Batman's thought process to even consider such a course of action? Oh and another thing, when The Joker is drawing his knife on Batman (having mocked the Mook who tried to take off his mask). Is he trying to kill Batman (and thus changed his mind about doing so between this scene and the interrogation) or is he trying to break the electric defence system to try and unmask him?

     Ridiculously sensitive car bomb trigger 
  • So if we take the scene of Judge Surillo's assassination as it's presented, the bomb was literally crafted to trigger when her eyeline moved to look up at the device. You could say that it's just uncannily timed (or maybe a trigger man outside the car is waiting for that exact moment to detonate it), but a timed detonation wouldn't work for the dramatic effect and a trigger man would probably be conspicuous to the cops who're meant to be escorting her to safety. So how was such a trigger mechanism devised? Does The Joker's crew really have the resources to obtain a facial recognition/scanning trigger device which can track eyeline, at 2008's (the year in which a Google search says the film is set) level of tech, or is there another way this could be done? Webcam, maybe?
    • What is there to indicate what the trigger is? The two cops, based on their lack of reaction to the explosion, are probably working for the Joker and might not even be cops at all; in either case, one of them likely detonated the bomb. The "Up" on the piece of paper is, as Surillo was told, where she was going; either literally up into the air because of the explosion or (in a bit of dark comedy) up to heaven.
    • Right, I guess, but along with "where she was going", it's also clearly meant to literally show that the bomb was up somewhere near (underneath, perhaps?) the sun shield.
    • What is clear about that? I for one had never considered that at all until reading this entry. Going by the logic of the entry, the bomb is actually located somewhere in the middle or rear of the car, since that's where the explosion seems to originate from.

     Batman is more Method than Bale or Ledger! 
  • Of course, Batman and the cops are colluding together to pretend that Gordon was shot dead by The Joker so as better to lure The Joker out to where he can be captured. Fine. But when the cops tell Barbara Gordon about his death, she condemns Batman who happens to be perching nearby because "You brought this craziness upon us!". Does the masquerade really need to go that far, that he thinks he should be seen by Gordon's family acting as if he's hanging his head in shame? What purpose does it serve- he doesn't really need to convince The Joker's people/the mob's people on the force in that scene that the death actually happened, does he? Because either they aren't in on the scheme in the first place, or if they are, then they would have told the bad guys that it's all a ruse. So what contingency which he's Crazy-Prepared for is this meant to account for? If it's not an act and he actually feels guilty about faking Gordon's death at the family's emotional expense, well it's all well and good to show empathy for her, but wouldn't his time be better spent preparing to intercept Joker's intervention against the convoy?

     Why not break the Joker's limbs? 
  • It's established in this film via Maroni that while Batman won't kill he doesn't have a problem with snapping a guy's leg purely for intimidation. So why not just, you know, do that to the Joker? I don't care how scary he seems or how good a schemer he may be, he's going nowhere and getting nothing done with, say, the bones in his arms and legs or hands and feet reduced to the consistency of powdered milk. It's not lethal and a permanent cripple who can't walk or even feed himself isn't going to walk out of the police station much less keep control of any kind of gang for very long.
    • Because this is the whole conflict of the movie; is Batman essentially going to lower himself to the Joker's level and prove that he's ultimately just a vicious monster out to satiate his own bloodlust and take the easy route, or is he going to stand for a higher principle no matter how difficult it proves? Besides which, in order to administer this beating he has to catch the Joker first, and there's surprisingly few occasions when Batman and the Joker are face to face. And most of those end with Batman having to save people from dying horribly, meaning he doesn't really have a chance to offer a brutal beatdown, much as he may at times want to.
    • It’s established that Batman’s code is against ‘’killing’’, he has no moral problems with breaking a guy’s leg. And also he literally does beat the Joker in an attempt to interrogate him and that doesn’t seem to cause him much distress either. So there’s no reason to suppose the idea of inflicting permanently debilitating injuries is somehow beyond the pale for Batman.
    • He breaks a guy’s leg and roughs the Joker up, sure, but there are still a few stages of brutality between that and reducing a guy’s skeletal structure to “the consistency of powdered milk” and ensuring that he is “a permanent cripple who can't walk or even feed himself”, as was suggested. Batman is clearly not above getting physical with his enemies, the Joker included, but the question then becomes whether or not he is above the kind of vicious sadistic bloodlust that would allow him to almost beat a man to death with his bare hands, as the OP all but outright suggests.
    • It's likely if he had felt a bit more desperation against the Joker he would have gone ahead with this; that's the level of desperation which led him to drop Maroni off the building to try and track the Joker down in the first place. But he slammed his fist down on the Joker's hand HARD in the interrogation scene; if he had wanted to put that hand out of action, he could have dialled it up a few notches and actually snapped the bones in his hand/wrist. He didn't feel the need.

    "I'll punish you Gordon, provided I'm not already dead." 
  • Why does Harvey flip for himself before flipping for Gordon's son?
    • He's not dealing with a full deck at this point. Maybe his crazy logic at the time went "well if I shoot the kid first, Gordon will kill me, and I don't want him to take the pleasure from me when I could be killing myself, so better toss the coin to figure out if I get to have that pleasure or not". It doesn't have to make sane and clear sense.

     No common sense among thieves? 

  • Ok, you're an average crook who's set to rob a bank with four other heisters that you likely haven't worked with before. Then, the boss who set this whole score up pulls you aside and tells you to kill one of the others for a bigger share of the loot. I admit that I'm no bank robber, but wouldn't this be the red flag to end all red flags? Apparently, only one guy realized "Hey, this Joker guy told ALL of us to kill each other", and he only figured it out after another dumbass casually revealed that he killed a partner per Joker's order. You'd think at least one guy would've tapped out before the heist started (especially since Joker's still small time at this point in the film.)
    • Each robber was only told to kill ONE guy, and to keep it a secret from the others. Joker probably said something along the lines of "They'll stop complaining when they get a bigger cut" and no one questioned further until they were getting shot.

     No bandages for burn victims 
  • Harvey's lying in a hospital bed with half his face burned off. No bandage, no kind of antiseptic protection? I know Gotham's supposed to be a crime-ridden hellhole, but have these people not heard of infection? And he's even got dried blood on his pillow. Wouldn't sleeping with raw tissue against fabric be painful as hell?
    • His face is bandaged initially, but he apparently rips the bandages off in anger soon afterward (or actually does; have to rewatch the specific shot to make sure). After that he could refuse bandaging if he wanted, and he doesn't seem like he's in a state where he would care if it hurts or not. The doctors would probably only insist on a topical antiseptic and regular eye drops if Harvey was adamant about leaving his face uncovered and not getting corrective surgery.

     Joker's goons not getting off a shot 
  • How come, once the SWAT team finds out about the disguised hostage ruse, do none of Joker's goons get off a shot? You'd think with the cops closing in they'd be letting loose.