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    The protagonist's selective storytelling 
  • Now it's been a very long time since I've played Persona 4, so maybe I'm just not remembering something super obvious, or getting things entirely wrong. That being said, why is the protagonist so selective about what he tells other people? He was totally fine with telling Yosuke and Chie that his TV tried eating him (before all the bizarre stuff started happening to them), and as you'd expect they don't believe him until they literally witness him putting himself into a TV. But he doesn't mention to anyone that he keeps getting summoned to the Velvet Room with a strange long nosed man who looks as evil as sin? Even if he was initially passing it off as dreams, after the bizarre crap begins going on and it becomes obvious it's totally real, he never thinks to bring up that there's some random, suspicious guy who seems to know about everything that's going on, and made him enter a "contract". Even though they're trying to solve the murders and look for the culprit. Yet he's totally fine with gossiping about other stuff as though it's totally normal, like the aforementioned "my TV tried to eat me" incident. The thing that makes this more funny to me, is that, to my memory, the game constantly empathises how the protagonist is a totally open guy who often wears his secrets on his sleeve.
    • Would they believe him if he told them? The Phantom Thieves didn't take Joker seriously when he told them about Igor. Everyone has their limits about what they can accept.
    • Why would he need to tell them that, anyway? Igor's not evil from the protagonist's POV; sure, he's cryptic as hell, but so far he's been nothing but help to the protagonist (through fusion, social link and etc). Even if he told them about Igor's existence, it's not like they could do much about it since they cannot see him unless he specifically summons them to the Velvet Room. And they already have too much on their hands to worry about an unseen force that only the protagonist can interact with. Not to mention, at the beginning of the game the entire visit to the Velvet Room happened while the protagonist was (most likely if my memory's not mistaken) asleep, so he most likely crossed it off as a weird dream he had. If it were me, I'd be more worried about my TV suddenly eating my hand than some weird trip to an unknown place while I was asleep.

    The mastermind's identity 
  • The mastermind is the random gas attendant who had like, one line, and appeared for a nanosecond at the start of the game? Really? What kind of "plot twist" is that?
    • Well...considering the "no wasted space" philosophy in games, it actually can be a good plot twist. For one thing, the gas attendant is the first non-family person the protagonist meets in Inaba—your introduction to the town. In fact, they even shake your hand, which would be quite unusual if they were a Japanese person, emphasis on "person". It's this contact that officiates your entry into Inaba, and the "game" you now must play. But, why would you think anything of it? Again, think of the "no wasted space" philosophy. This was a significant event meant to be forgettable, because if you thought of it too deeply, you may have realized who the mastermind is earlier than expected. That's why they don't even have a face render in the beginning—because if you did, you would certainly remember them. See it as you forgetting a face because you thought you wouldn't meet them again. And, if you did remember them—or the game called too much attention to them—you would realize that was the only "nice" day you saw them; You only see the gas station attendant when it rains after that. Given the significance about rain, you may have realized something fishy. So, more specifically, the mastermind is the one significant person that the game actually attempts for you to not remember, yet still is important to your entry in Inaba AND only appears at times when the game is actively more dangerous.

    We're supposed to be rooting for these guys? 
  • That one scene where the Investigation Team confronts Adachi, and Adachi explains his stance on why he thinks the world completely sucks and is unfair. Uh, wait, uh, who are we supposed to be supporting here again? The guy who's calmly stating his opinions (as toxic and negative as they may seem, especially coming from a murderer), or the bunch of emotional teenagers who completely ignore all his points, and side step the entire thing by saying such things as "I don't care what your opinion is because you're a worthless criminal", and, "you can't stand being alive but you're too scared to die. That makes no sense, of course people don't understand you". Yes, I know they're teenagers. Yes, I know they're bound to be emotional. But the main problem is that the game explicitly infers that they're in the right. That's the entire point of the game, the developers even said during interviews related to P5, that P4 is supposed to be an extremely black and white story, where you're rooting for the "good guys" who are going against an obvious "horrible person". But what the Investigation Team spits out of their mouths towards Adachi in that scene is outright close-minded. Especially as someone who's dealt with problems relating to suicide before, Yukiko's line made me want to puke with disgust that they actually expect us to consider what they're saying to be true and not downright whiny and self-righteous. And yes, I know this is what Adachi himself calls it, but the game expects you think he's wrong on that. But he's really not. Everything they said, was nothing but emotionally, and close-mindedly self-righteous.
    • To expand on this, the Investigation Team all especially represent everything that Adachi thinks is wrong with the world. Rise is a female who was born with genes that made her look good, and that gave her a good voice. Yosuke was born into a family that runs an already successful business. Naoto was born into a family of successful detectives. Yukiko, once again, was born with genes that made her physically attractive. The MC is naturally good at being a "man-whore", to put it in a simple (and even canonically stated) way...ect. Basically the point is that everything feels purposefully set up against Adachi's opinions, which especially makes that one scene feel extremely artificial. Although I understand the message the game is trying to put across with this (namely that even those born into "success" struggle through their lives, success isn't just handed to anyone on a silver platter), does anyone else just feel as though it was wasn't really executed that well? Especially the way that one scene was handled, it just makes it seem like a really black and white attitude the game expects you to agree with.
    • I had a specific problem with Yukiko's line too. I don't mind a character saying such a thing, if it's actually portrayed as them having said something toxic, but as you said, it isn't. I don't know if it's supposed to be inferred that you're meant to be agreeing with the Investigation Team, but there is a definite problem with how the story tries to present it's point. It's presented as an extremely black and white story a lot of the time, so when there are morally ambiguous grey areas it can be difficult to disconnect from "these guys are good and are always doing what's right" and "this guy is bad and always doing what's wrong". As you said as well, the purposeful black and white nature of Persona 4's story is even brought up in interviews for Persona 5, where they stated they wanted to make that game's story more morally ambiguous.
    • To be honest, I don't think it's that simple. Adachi's thing that makes him so vile is that while his base attitude seems relatable at first, the fact that he *acts* on his feelings of entitlement is what truly makes him so twisted. He refuses to take control of his life and fate and instead is under the delusion that he deserves to have all the prestige. He never "worked" towards what he wanted, and instead chose to snap when he felt life did things that were unfair to him and throw a fit about it. He acts like all of his problems and hardships are his own and whines about it, making excuses for his vile actions like murder. When you try to coerce others into your own misery without feeling any remorse for it, that's when you're truly a vie person. The idea behind Adachi's character is that anyone should take responsibility for their own actions, regardless of who they may be. And besides, the IT isn't as "perfect-born" as you think. If you played Rise's Social Link, you'll find that she spent most of her childhood as a wallflower: bullied by others, having no friends, and living under strict parents. A literal nobody. She worked her way towards her fame as an idol, and she dedicated a lot of effort, and gave up a lot to harness a career in that field. Yosuke's family had only recently been contracted to manage Junes in Inaba as of P4's events, and he was and is more or less an ordinary teenage guy as a person. His work at Junes is penny pinching and he's a butt of jokes, is used as a complaint box for the other part-timers, and is treated as an outsider in Inaba due to Junes "damaging" their historic shopping district business. Yukiko is great looking, but looks aren't everything. She's an heiress to a historic inn, and most of her life revolved around her taking on the inn in her future. She struggles with the fact that she doesn't feel like she's *able* to take control of her life and fate, and whether she actually wants to meet her family's expectations for her. Naoto may come from a famous lineage, but she's a female working in a profession where females aren't very respected, especially since Japan has an extremely binary notion of gender roles. Famous lineage or not, her gender and her status as a child made her struggle with actually being respected by others. Most of the police she worked with considered her a nuisance or just a tool more often than not. She had trouble with being underestimated by others. Admittedly the MC was glorified in the spin-offs, but that largely came from the fact that he was originally intended to be mostly a blank slate for the player to project some character into. His base character is that he's stoic, responsible, but very isolated and lonely. The IT is really not entirely built against Adachi: they're all more or less average people who have their own struggles to deal with, in meeting other's expectations, working towards success in their own lives, but ultimately wanting to be respected and accepted by others. What actually puts them and Adachi as opposites is that Adachi refuses to work towards being a successful person: he expects success to come to him and acts on his sense of entitlement to inflict trouble on others. There's no excusing or sympathizing inflicting pain on other people out of childish impulses. He chooses to whine about his own misery and acts like he's the only person suffering. That's what truly makes him vile.
      • In addition, Yukiko's line about Adachi was moreso pointing out how ironic it was that Adachi was still desperately clinging to his life despite constantly talking about how much he hates it. It's ironic because he claims he is dissatisfied with his life and wants to end it all, but still continues to make it clear he wants to continue to live in a way that doesn't let go of his own misery.
      • I understand the point the scene, and Adachi's character in general, was supposed to be going for. I simply believe that it doesn't present it's more aspects that are more ambitious that well. Nor does it actually address any of Adachi's issues he raises. My primary issue with the way the story presents itself is that, by not actually addressing the grey ambiguity that well, and by summing up everything Adachi stands for and believes in into the entire notion of "this guy is vile", it can come across as lumping the actual ideals, opinions, beliefs, and points that he stands for into the villain's own character. Just speaking generally for a moment, this is why grey ambiguity needs to be presented well, and presented fully, in fiction, and not done in a half-assed way if they're going to try and go for it at all. It's fine having a "good guy" and a "bad guy", ect, but when you do this kind of thing poorly, it gives off the extremely toxic message of "anyone who has these opinions is toxic and one step away from being a villain". And, at least to me personally, Persona 4 tips into that. Honestly that one scene with their confrontation is my primary reason for that. Good intentions on the message and what it's trying to put across or not, it doesn't excuse if it handles it shoddily at times, which again, Persona 4 does to me. With Yukiko's line though, that is exactly what is so bad about it as well. I'm not accusing the writers of purposefully planting toxic messages in the dialogue, because yes, they probably meant for her line to have a good meaning behind it. But it's like you said, Adachi desperately clings to his life despite hating it so much, and Yukiko's response to this is to just shout "that makes no sense, people won't understand you!" at him. I'm sorry, but as someone who's dealt with personal suicidal urges before, and as someone who knows others who have as well, I can tell you for a fact that this is a completely ordinary feeling for people with suicidal urges to think. The oxymoron of "I hate my life and can't stand living, but I don't want to/am too scared to die". I can say personally, that this feeling ran rampant through my head and my soul all the damn time back when I was going through an especially rough time. While, yes, I'm sure the writers meant for Yukiko's line to come across like a tough slap to the face for people with these kinds of feelings to face reality, the fact is the way it's presented is a lot more like a sucker punch to the gut. Again, as I'm constantly reiterating, the issue is how it's presented. Seeing a character that's presented as someone you're meant to like, spit out an incredibly simplified viewpoint on an issue like this, then having the game present her as being in the right for what she's saying, can be outright toxic for certain players to see. And I know it probably seems like I'm making a big fuss over one small line of dialogue, but the overall point is that Yukiko's line basically showcases the primary problem I have with how Persona 4 presents it's point, especially during that one scene.
      • First of all, you're reading far more into Yukiko's line than was intended. Second, the IT is calling out Adachi's non-sequitur reasoning, not his points about society. He's saying "society is hypocritical and unfair, therefore killing people is fine" and they're saying "No, shut up." And they're right to do so, because it makes absolutely no sense. It's not about the points he's making by themselves, it's about the context he's using them in: to justify murder.
      • Except that this isn't what the IT call him out on. Not in the specific scene that leads into his shadow fight anyway. It is true that the way that scene is structured specifically has the IT call Adachi out on the fact that he has no right to complain. I suppose you're supposed to assume the context is just naturally in there, yeah, but the structure of the scene does not lend itself well to that context at all. And yes, maybe they are reading too much into Yukiko's line, I wouldn't personally go so far as to call it a toxic piece of dialogue or anything like that. But they do have a point that it's definitely not a good thing for Yukiko to have said. In fact, the main issue I have with that scene, is how the IT specifically handle it, not who is in the right. Whether that's an issue with writing, or something purposeful to show that the IT are flawed people too and aren't being the entirely 100% pure goody-goodies is another matter entirely. But the IT really did not handle it well, is the thing. They basically started ranting in Adachi's face, which granted, may be something any normal person would do when faced with someone like Adachi and his ramblings, but it doesn't justify the fact that that's what they did, and that they didn't exactly end up doing much other then scream "shut up" at him. That, plus, like I said, the scene does not lend itself well to the context it's supposed to be building itself around. I went an rewatched that scene recently, and the OP is right, the IT do come across as fairly self-righteous, especially near the end of it.
      • And so we're supposed to root for the murderer of two women as opposed to a group of teens that are admitting to a bit of hypocrisy and self-righteousness. Good to see where the heads are at on TV Tropes!
      • That's not what we're saying. No one's supporting Adachi or rooting for him for what he did. He's an evil scumbag, who pulls excuses outta his ass to justify murdering people. No one's denying that. What we're pointing out is that the Investigation Team are not as "goody-goodie"/100% in the right as they're often made out to be (by both fans, and often times the Persona 4 games themselves). You can point out the flaws in one side without it automatically making you an advocate for the other side, you realize.
      • Is the point of this folder to complain about how Yukiko made a passive aggressive insult towards suicide ? I don't see how that's a problem. Adachi wanted to run away from the consequences of his actions by dying and Yukiko called him out on it. The writers don't need to take a politically correct stance on world issue just cause a troper got offended. And of course the Investigation Team were being highly emotional. Of course a group of teenagers wouldn't just calmly chat with a serial killer and listen to his self serving justifications. People who cant handle the truth(pun intended) have no right to complain.
      • No, the point of this headscratcher is for people to discuss the subjective issue of whether the Investigation Team were hypocritical, self-righteous, and whether they should rightly be the people the game expects us to root for. This kind of response is, ironically, one of the reasons people may have said stance towards the Investigation Team in the first place. People feel like that scene in the game relies heavily on The Complainer Is Always Wrong among a great deal of other fallacies, that the Investigation Team play into. People's opinions will vary, but you're not doing anything valid by just dismissing tropers as people who are wrongfully "offended" and acting like their arguments just don't have no point, in the exact same way that some people accuse the Investigation Team of doing.
      • I honestly can't believe this is even a thing. You would rather side with a murderer who doesn't even cares about his victims at all and is nothing but a loser who tries to play the "victim" card to justify taking the lives of innocent people, than someone you ambiguously think is "toxic" for seemingly throwing a passive aggressive line? The Investigation team isn't perfect, they are humans. Reality check: not everyone is perfect, and not everyone means harm in the way they say things. Even though Yukiko's line MIGHT seem to be as harmful as OP said it was, I doubt it was the writer's intentions to make her an uncaring person who doesn't really care much about someone who's "suicidal". You're reading far too much into something that wasn't meant to be taken that seriously; it's called projecting into it.
    • Remember that for all of his ranting about the world being unfair, Adachi doesn't have it that bad. He's made detective at a young age, has an honestly easy beat, and has a number of people trying to bond with him. He's not angry about a grand injustice beyond his control: he just didn't get the position he wanted because of his own mistakes and was pissed that a woman that didn't even know him wasn't up to his artificial standards of purity. He's operating on the level of your garden variety incel and just trying to tie to with rants about the grand unfairness of the world as a whole to justify him toying with people's lives out of sheer boredom as cosmic justice instead of a childish trantrum. He could have improved his life any of a thousand different ways, but his own innate entitlement and sociopathic disregard for others lead him to become a murderer just for the thrill of it. Now that he's confronted with the truth of his actions, he spews cheap excuses rather than take any responsibility. The Investigation Team rightfully wasn't having any of it.
    • Bottom line: this is not a philosophical debate. Neither side is seriously examining the human condition and giving their opinion on what applies to everyone. This is a battle between a serial killer and the kids who have been victimized by his actions. He's giving self serving justifications for his actions and the IT are treating them as exactly what they are: self-serving excuses that distract from what he's done and will continue to do. Getting caught up in the argument and ignoring context is foolish.
      • The "bottom line" here isn't about the context, it's about the framing by the game. The way that I personally feel about the original point being made was not that they're trying to express that "Adachi had a point" and that the IT are hypocrites; at least this I don't feel like this the problem, personally. whether you think he does or not doesn't matter. The issue is that the game frames any points he might actually have as "excuses". And this is the only context where they're discussed. By doing that, a lot of people feel as if the game is telling people who might think like Adachi, or who might have similar worries or complaints as him, that they're as bad as Adachi himself. That if you think this way, you will become Adachi, or that if put into the same scenario as him you would do the same evil shit that he did. People keep framing this argument as people "avoiding context", but no one is avoiding context. The main point that's being made is that that context itself is flawed and biased in it's presentation and could've been handled better. Which is something I personally agree with. For as much as I love Persona 4, it's story, and adore the Investigation Team, Persona 4's writing does have flaws.

    Doesn't sound like a legit reason to phase out a character... 
  • So, supposedly Igor is being phased out of the franchise because his voice actor died. If that's true, it sounds like a stupid reason to phase out a character. I assume that there'd be more to it than that, though, so could someone explain the specifics that would justify the phasing out?
  • In Japan they usually retire a character when the original voice actor for them dies, it's supposed to be out of respect. So now we'll probably get a new person to give us our Personas. Possibly new blonde-haired golden-eyed girls.
  • As of the latest Persona 5 trailer, it would seem Igor will be returning. He has also been given a new voice actor in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax, so it would seem they are not retiring the character after all.
  • I personally think that Persona Q actually works a little better with the Velvet Room functions being done by the characters unique to both games rather than having Igor, who appears in both. It would get a little complicated working out whether he's from 2009 or 2011.

    Why doesn't Chie get attacked in the first dungeon? 
  • On the gang's first visit to Yukiko's Castle, Chie picks up the Distress Ball in a major way, charging directly into Yukiko's Castle ahead of Protagonist and Yosuke. How the hell did she make it to the second floor without taking any damage from the Shadows on the first floor(evidenced by the fact that we see no signs of injury on her during the scene on the second floor), despite the fact that she had no Persona power, no healing items, and only a pair of shoes for a weapon?
    • Galactic Punt.
    • Nope. Her social link hadn't formed yet, let alone progressed to that level. Also, she can't do that move alone. And even if she could, some of the Shadows would have gotten a chance to attack her as well.
      • Some dumb luck. Since the fog is thick that day, Shadows aren't very aggressive. Of course, Chie can't see very well neither but that mean she's most likely stick to a wall and walk along it. Thank to random generate dungeon, she might get very lucky and find the stair fast. As well as escape few encounter unharmed. It's slim chance, but not impossible.
    • Not dumb luck, not Galactic Punt, nor ANYTHING. Teddie clearly states that Shadows DON'T attack normal people unless the fog in that world clears. Up until then, Chie hadn't awoken her Persona yet, making her "normal". It's because Yosuke and the protagonist had awoken their power that the Shadows reacted to them.
      • The shadows attacked Yosuke and Protagonist before he gained Izanagi, in fact that's what spurred him to use it.
      • Protagonist isn't necessarily normal. He had had Izanami's Touch before and had already heard the voice of Izanagi in his head, not to mention he already had the power to enter the TV, which on itself means something.
      • Moreover the Shadows completely ignore Yosuke and head straight for the protagonist.
      • It still would be theoretically possible for her to be dragged into a battle with the Shadows. Remember that during gameplay, simply touching a shadow is sufficient to trigger a battle. Chie couldn't see where she was going due to the fog, so there should've been a high likelihood of her ramming into a Shadow at some point.
      • That is just a gameplay element. Unless you also believe every field enemy in Chrono Cross was also every monster it turns into when you touch them?
      • Never played Chrono Cross, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Also, later in the game, Adachi explains that the reason the Shadows attack you is because you attempt to oppose them. (His exact words being "They go wild because you defy them.") Chie's attempt to rescue Yukiko from the castle is a similar act of opposition, which should provoke the Shadows to attack her.
      • You took that out of context. The shadows that Adachi was referring to were each characters' personal shadow selves, not random shadows.
      • It's possible that Shadow Yukiko wanted her further in the castle so she would meet up with Shadow Chie and had the patrolling Shadows not attack while she wandered around.
      • How would Shadow Yukiko know that there would even be a Shadow Chie? The knowledge that a person's Shadow has is limited to the knowledge that the host has. Yukiko was seemingly unaware of Chie's hidden resentment towards her, so it follows that Shadow Yukiko wouldn't have known about it either.
      • It's because you need a Persona to fight the shadows. Chie could've gone all the way to Shadow Yukiko's lair, but she wouldn't be able to do a damn thing. Her rescue attempt is moot, so the shadows ignore her.
    • I thought the point was that she was normal, just like Teddie said. Shadows wouldn't attack her, even if she smacked right into one. And either way, she's already got a weapon so she could just attack a Shadow if she really needed to.
      • Shadows will attack anything in the TV World. As for her weapon, she hadn't obtained her Persona yet. It's easier just to think that the plot required her to get that far even if it doesn't make much sense.
      • The above is definitely not true. If they did, all of the victims thrown into the TV would be immediately killed, no rescue attempt possible by the investigation team. Like it was explained by another troper, Teddie explains that Shadows don't attack normal people unless the fog clears in the TV world, which is when they become violent. As for the bit about the Protagonist being attacked, he already had Izanagi; that's what allowed him to enter the TV in the beginning when Yosuke and Chie couldn't on their own. As for why Souji already had Izanagi, the True Ending takes care of that.
      • The Shadows also appear to attack people who have the Persona ability primarily, as they are the ones that the Shadows view as threats. Particularly in the case of the Investigation Team, the shadows become agitated around them since they are seeking the truth, and the Shadows despise any source of truth and become agitated if they see them. This is especially the case when you see the Shadow selves of the kidnapped go berserk: when they go berserk upon being denied, they actually don't immediately kill the person they manifested from: they actually fight the Investigation Team before attempting to kill the person they emerged from.
    • The same way everyone else survives the TV World before being rescued: the Shadows can't find them. Teddie outright says that the fog is so dense that the Shadows usually can't track anyone until the days it clears out and goes to the real world. The only exception to this are Persona users who stand out like a beacon to them. Shadow-Selves can find their owners just fine, but they don't want to harm them because their death would kill the Shadow, too. They just want to be accepted by their human selves. It's only after being denied enough that the Shadow-Self is enraged enough to kill their counterpart. Presumably, they only reach that point if the human ramps up the denial in response to having an audience see their deepest secrets like the Investigation Team. Otherwise, if they aren't found soon enough, likely the fog rolls out and normal Shadows swarm and devour whoever is left inside. At least, that's my headcanon as to why those tossed into the TV can last for weeks with their Shadow Selves, refuting everything they say and only get the big boss triggering official “You’re not me!!” moment when the Investigation Team comes.

    Social Links and the Main Story 
  • Sometimes the nonintegration of Social Links bugs me. I just got Dojima up to rank 9, and the next night, I hang out with Nanako. Despite the very night before Dojima made a speech about being a "real family" and giving her cake, Nanako gets frustrated about the whole parent-teacher thing, says he's not her "real dad" and runs off. It doesn't make very much sense.
    • There are a lot of hidden resentments in the Dojima house, it seems...
    • The problem with conflicting social links. I always assumed it was some loss of memory going on.
    • One heartwarming speech does not fully mend a relationship. Likewise, any action that someone doesn't like will strain a relationship.
    • Problem also exists in P3 where things got awkward with a character but still casually talks to you back at the dorm. I would love it if Atlus made the Social Links scene flow seamlessly.
    • From a technical point of view, it would be incredibly hard to program a better integration of Social Links. But it would be great if there was something like that in Persona 5 !

    What kills the victims in the Midnight Channel? 
  • What exactly kills the victims if the Investigation Team tarries for too long? We're told that shadows will kill anyone still stuck in TV World when the fog there subsides, but whenever the Inaba Scooby Gang shows up to the rescue, the denied super-shadow would seem to pose a much more imminent threat to the victim - one that doesn't depend on the weather. So how does it work? Fair enough, time probably doesn't work logically within the TV World anyway, considering how the captured can go for what appear to be weeks without food and water trapped in an alien dimension and come out not much worse for the wear.
    • Perhaps as long as they're alone with their shadows people can't quite bring themselves to completely deny a part of them that they know deep down is real to the point of setting the shadow off, and it's only when other people show up and see that part of themselves that they try to keep hidden that they switch to full denial mode and everything goes pear-shaped. So as long as the party doesn't reach them they might argue with the shadow but never pull out the old "You're not me!" and remain safe until the fog clears and the shadows go mad.
      • This is kinda proven with Naoto's shadow. Naoto's shadow had no desire to kill Naoto, she just wants to perform a sex change operation. This would be pointless if she was just going to kill Naoto.
    • The victims have no real means of defending themselves against Shadows without their Persona. Unless they managed to accept their own Shadow without it going berserk before the rest of the Shadows swarmed them when the fog cleared, they'd be helpless. As for the Persona 3, time explicitly worked differently in Tartarus, to the point of a person who was trapped inside for a week only experiencing a couple of hours. It's not a stretch to assume the same happens inside the TV World, despite the different natures of it and the Dark Hour.
      • Chie actually mentions the time thing after their first stint into the TV, if only in passing: In the T.V. it felt like less time had passed than what actually had in the real world.
    • Ameno-Sagiri clears this up a little. The Shadows like living in the fog. They don't like it when humans seek the truth, so when the fog of confusion breaks, they get agitated and kill any human who happens to be around at the time.
    • I always assumed that the shadows don't seriously start tearing into their other selves until the party shows up because they want an audience. Mainly because I think they want to be denied on some level and like another troper pointed out, they're more likely to flat out reject them in front of witnesses.
    • P5 gives a decent display of what happens. When a person's Shadow dies, the resulting loss completely shatters their minds permanently, leaving them vegetative husks. A condition known as a "mental shutdown". In some cases, killing them outright. Presumably, when the Shadow Self attacks their human, this effectively results in the Shadow breaking the rest of their minds, making the victim suffer a mental shutdown so violent that it is fatal to even the healthiest people. The body is then discarded from the TV World by other Shadows as the now-dead human no longer has any tasty thoughts or emotions to feed on, making the corpse useless garbage to Shadows. That would also explain why none of the bodies show any physical injuries that should cause death.

    The Bad Ending 
  • How come in the bad ending the apocalypse doesn't happen, unlike when you fail to meet the deadline of the December dungeon? Fair enough, the world might be engulfed anytime after March, but I don't see how cornering Adachi would speed up the process, especially considering how he had apparently been certain for quite some time that the world would meet its maker by the end of the year.
    • Not sure. But I got the impression that the big calamity happened something like that evening, and Inaba was effectively wiped off the map. Very creepy stuff.
    • My theory is that Adachi became the avatar of that big creepy fog god guy and chasing him into the TV world where his power was strongest sped things up.
      • I suppose that is the most likely explanation (or the fact that he got found out forced Ameno-Sagiri to pick up his pace just so he wouldn't get done in before he was ready), but it kind of irritates me how Adachi says that the town will be shrouded in fog by the end of the year so matter-of-factly, as if he'd known for a long time beforehand that that was the case, when it clearly isn't if he doesn't get discovered. But well, when the character's possessed by the god of deceit, I guess you should lend the game at least that much Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
  • The calamity in question is described by Adachi and Ameno-Sagiri as the Fog of Deceit covering the world, implying that after it happens it will cause everyone to see what they want to see instead of the truth. It's possible the fog already covered the world and the Protagonist just doesn't know it.
    • So the world did end, but the protagonist is living the lie that it didn't and never knows what's up? Can someone say Fridge Horror?

    The Inaba News Announcer 
  • Not sure where to put this but, did anyone else think that the Inaba News announcer was the culprit at first? Everyone he interviewed ended up kidnapped, and his first two interviews (Saki's and Yukiko's) were kinda creepy.
    • 1)Announcers don't interview people. 2) Yukiko and Saki were the only people interviewed by that specific news station.
      • Whoops, brain fart with choice of words there, sorry. But thanks for that detail - I was kind of wondering why the overbearing tone of the interviews disappeared with Kanji's, but looks like they weren't even the same dude.

    Ms. Sofue's Family Tree 
  • Ms. Sofue makes a reference to her brother being the samurai-helmet-wearing teacher from Persona 3, but his name is Mr. Ono, and she's Ms. Sofue. Why do they have different last names? She can't be married, since she's Ms. Sofue.
    • She could be divorced though, or he could be a half-sibling. "Ms." is also something of a misnomer, in that it can also stand in for a married woman though it is more common now for unmarried women to use it. Mr. Ono wasn't one of the cameos at Gekkokan High. I missed him and his whining about the Sengoku Era.
    • Mostly when married women are "Ms.", it's to signal that they didn't change their name, so that doesn't help.
    • Some married women prefer to be addressed as Ms. instead of Mrs., so Atlus might have tried to avoid offending anybody.
    • Not only that, but remember that this problem would only be introduced in the translation; in the Japanese version she was probably just Sofue-sensei, which would be marriage-neutral. And yeah, technically "Ms." is marriage-neutral and "Miss" is exclusively for the unmarried.
    • Didn't she say 'cousin' and not 'brother'?
    • She says 'brother' when you first see her in a classroom. Although "Ms." is marriage-neutral, so this troper doesn't see a conflict.
    • I like how this also assumes that when someone gets married its the WOMAN who will ALWAYS change their name. That is definitely not the case in all cultures.
      • It is, however, traditionally the case in Japan, just as in the West.
    • Who said anybody assumed that? I think they were just stating that she isn't married(assuming that Ms.Sofue, personally, would decide take the husbands last name) so her name couldn't possibly have changed. Wait, can last names be legally changed in court?
    • In some places. Also Japan has, if this troper remembers right, a custom that if the wife is of considerably higher social status than the husband, the husband changes his name. So for example if Akihiko Sanada married Mitsuru Kirijo(or whoever you ship with her, assuming you don't go with Les Yay) he'd probably change his name to Akihiko Kirijo. Maybe Mr Ono married up?
    • If you become romantically involved with Yukiko, talking about marriage leads to her mentioning that the MC would have to change his surname to Amagi so they can run the Amagi Inn together. So a guy changing his family name to his wife's family name is possible.
    • Japanese law also dictates, if this troper remembers correctly, a man and wife have to share a surname.
    • She said "Brother". Now he is Mr. Ono. Ono could have been her maiden name and Sofue is her married name.
    • If you talk to the guy who had noticed her a couple of times near the ending of the game(The very last day if this troper remembers correctly) he reveals that he's been taking walks with her, hinted to be a date of sorts. That pushes the balance towards not married.Also she's probably just Sofue-sensei in the original.

    Nanako and Healing Items 
  • Its practically a staple of every RPG dealing with death, but it still sticks out. Nanako is dying from injuries sustained in the TV, which modern medicine can't understand. Okay, fine. But you've healed yourself and your friends from the brink of death countless times using your powers - why didn't Rise, Yukiko, Yosuke, Teddie and Protagonist form a ring around her and heal her?
    • Typical example of Gameplay and Story Segregation, I'd say. If you want some thinking around it, I can offer this much. Nanako wasn't said to have died out of injuries sustained from the TV World, after all, the doctors claimed she didn't know what she had. Everything seems to suggest just being in the TV World is harmful for humans (although Teddie's glasses seem to nullify this effect to a point), and it's the same reason Yukiko, Rise, Kanji and Naoto needed some time to recover after you saved them. Nanako, though, is only seven years old, and apparently the contamination was too much for her young body.
      Furthermore, first, one scene seemed to suggest the P4 cast could not use their power outside of the TV World. And even if they could, the "Revive" skills are likely just "Back from KO" worth much, not like they could ACTUALLY bring someone back from definite death.
      • In fact, during the S.Link incident in which Nanako runs out of the house and everyone gathers to look for her, Rise specifically laments that her power to find people doesn't work in the real world, which seems to indicate that they can only use their Personas in the TV world (this may be the scene the above troper was thinking of). Confirmed as of Persona 4: Arena where the party, especially Rise, is shocked that someone can use their persona in the real world aka Fuuka.
    • This is actually one of the few RPGs where it's really totally justified. Nanako isn't dying from "injuries" from the TV World, but basically from a sickness from the TV World itself. You don't have a spell to undo that damage, and personas have been shown to be unable to cure illness. Plus, as established, they can't use their personas out of the TV World.
    • My guess is that hit points represent the vitality of the Persona, not the literal physical health of the characters. The healing spells are strengthening your magical guardians, not healing injuries. Same for the items like Macca Leaves - they work metaphorically, not literally. Since Nanako didn't have a Persona, the game's healing items can't affect her.
    • I don't know how relevant it is, but in the manga of the first Persona game Megami Ibunroku - Persona its stated that a persona can not heal not persona users.
    • P5 has some level of explanation for this. The healing items you get don't work purely on their own merit. They work miraculously well in the mental worlds the cast find themselves in because the items are empowered by the cognition of healing. Basically, simple medications or symbolic items like beads can patch up wounds that should be life threatening because, on some level, people think they should so the mental worlds make them work that way. Naturally, the real world isn't nearly so malleable to thoughts and desires, so the items lose that power there and act like regular medicine. Otherwise, hospitals wouldn't need to exist if you could just hold a shiny bead up to a patient to fix everything.

    How are they summoning their Personas? 
  • In Persona 3, the story suggested that the characters had to be in a life-or-death situation before they could use their Persona abilities, which was why they used prop guns to mime suicide. How are the characters in Persona 4 summoning their Personas, since the glasses are just to help them see through the fog of the TV World. Have the rules changed, even though Persona 4 shares a universe with Persona 3, or did Atlus just remove the mock suicides because they didn't fit the rest of Persona 4's aesthetic?
    • In The Answer in Persona 3, it's revealed that the Personae are really just Shadows. Since the Shadows in Persona 3 were all created by the Kirijo Group and disappeared along with the Abyss of Time, new Personae and Shadows had to come from some other source; and thus they have different properties.
    • The reason guns are needed in Persona 3 is based off of a Carl Jung theory, they didn't have to actually be in a life death situation to summon all the time(though most awakenings happen as a result of almost dying). Plus P1 and P2 never had evokers of any kind(and Takaya, who is ironically the most suicidal character in P3, doesn't need one either). Besides I think fighting shadows is still a life or death situation on its own.
    • This troper figured that P3's Dark Hour was less hospitable to Shadows (since they rarely leave Tartarus) than P4's "TV universe," which is suggested as their place of origin. As Personas are only Shadows under conscious control, they'd need a naturally strong ego and a bit of punch to summon them in the Dark Hour, while they are acquired and summoned much more easily in the inner universe.
    • In addition, the cast of Persona 3 never actually had to face their other selves like the cast of Persona 4 did. Acceptance of their other selves could have given the Persona 4 gang a level of mastery over their personas that the Persona 3 gang never had, hence no evokers.
    • People who got into the series with Persona 3 don't always seem to realize that the evokers show up absolutely nowhere else in the series; the summoning method used in Persona 4 is basically a more flashy version of how the characters in Persona 1 and 2 called forth their inner selves (which was basically just holding a pose).
  • Am I the only one who finds it ironic that a video game has a light "New Media Are Evil" theme, what with the whole thing about humans only wanting to see false images and ignore the truth and what not?
    • That and Protagonist's uncle complaining about the news every time he gets the chance.
    • This troper caught the irony too, but the game itself is aware of its own theme (the simple answer is never the true one) and tries to exploit your trust in it. Several times at the end of the story, it actively tries to get you to just call it done and pat yourself on the back, but a lot of questions remain unanswered if you do so.
    • No, you're not. Then again, isn't the idea of "humans only wanting to see false images and ignore the truth" a Buddhist concept? After all, Buddhism is pretty big in Japan, and Atlus has been known to use concepts from Buddhism and Hinduism in their other MegaTen games.
    • It's a Red Herring theme. The game points it out a lot so that you don't notice how Anvilicious the Be Yourself theme is.
    • Also, it's important to remember that New Media aren't entirely evil. Without the Midnight Channel and the news reports to rely on, you wouldn't be able to save anyone.
    • The "TV World is better for Persona Summoning" thing is canon as of P 4 A. Mitsuru summoned her persona practically by accident and was surprised at how easy it was in the TV.
      • The TV World is the world of the Shadows - it is their domain. This would make it easier for a Persona to be summoned - the conditions are ideal. Tartarus is not part of the Shadow's World, so Personae need the extra push that being in fear of your life would give. And even if the fear effect wears off, conditioning wouldn't.

    Kanji's crush on Naoto 
  • Kanji has a crush on Naoto, right? The game plays it up a bunch. So why is it that it completely disappears without a trace around the time Naoto's S.Link becomes available? I realize that Naoto is a girl and thus a potential love interest for Protagonist, but Kanji's crush completely disappears as if it never existed. How come? You'd think that Kanji would at least say something about the situation if Naoto becomes Protagonist's girlfriend.
    • Apparently they wanted to leave his sexual affinity up to the players, so they kind of hint at Naoto for a while and leave it at that.
    • There's also the possibility that the events before the S-Link opened up, namely The Secret Lab's series of dialog between Kanji, Naoto, and Shadow Naoto, and the scenes during the cultural festival with Kanji literally begging Naoto to go up on stage so he can prove he's attracted to women are Kanji putting to rest that he never really was attracted to Naoto, and has come to terms with his sexual identity, which is more likely that he's gay, or has feeling for Yukiko, depending on how you're reading into things.
    • What version of Persona 4 were you guys playing? Kanji was still obsessed with Naoto through the end of the game. Kanji just has no ability to deal with girls - do YOU think a guy that awkward could make a pass at someone? Plus you only have Naoto in your party for about two months of game time that are completely overshadowed by the finale of the game - the subplot likely petered out because there were more important things going on. The game is pretty clear that he's not gay, all of his sexual hangups stem from him having traditionally feminine interests and being shunned for it. Since girls gave him the hardest time over it, he really can't talk to girls. And he really can't talk to Naoto. It's obvious he's attracted to girls - he got a nosebleed seeing Chie and Yukiko in their swimsuits. He was absolutely gobsmacked at the idea of Naoto in a swimsuit and disappointed when she wasn't. But it's Kanji. He's not good at communicating with girls - something common to plenty of heterosexual teenage boys. And I say this as someone who had really hoped for a gay character in this game, but it's pretty obvious the plotline for Kanji was not a simple coming out story, but of someone having to grapple with society's expectations for gender roles. And society expects that a guy with feminine interests is gay.
      • Also notice that the guys were also in their swimsuits during the nosebleed incident. Besides I'm a Naoto/Kanji shipper, but I thought his ambiguous sexuality was Word of God and they made him socially inept so the player wouldn't be 100% sure of which way he went. I agree with your take on his shadow back story though.
      • The guys were in their swimsuits, but Kanji had no reaction to them. He didn't start blushing or getting nose bleeds until the girls showed up. I haven't got anything on Word of God - did you find something else? I'm just going with what's in the game. Edit: Found it - from three days ago. Kind of a shame, though, that only the Atlus USA guys answered that question and the game's director didn't offer any insight. Then again, I suppose if they'd said anything he hadn't intended, he would elaborated further, so I'll take his silence as a sign that they all had the same answer.
      • Actually, Kanji didn't get a nosebleed when the girls showed up either. He ACTUALLY got it when the boys were put in the water, and were suddenly wet. He is staring at THE BOYS when the girls notice his nosebleed. I think the game intends him to be ambiguous, but leaning towards gay, especially when you consider that his crush on Naoto is purely based on the fact that she looks and acts like a feminine boy, and it goes away when he finds out she's a girl.
      • If you pay more attention, he turns away after seeing the girls. It's pretty clear his nosebleed was because of the girls.
      • Seriously, guys, why can't we just leave it at Word of God saying "it's whatever you want it to be" and be done with it?
      • Because it's not Word of God.
      • If the American voice actor is a reliable source, the directing he got from Atlus was, outright, "Kanji's gay, but this is being kept ambiguous." One is free to gather he's lying.
      • It's entirely possible for Kanji to be pretty much gay but still a little bi for Naoto. Especially given that he seems to have fallen for her when he still thought she was a guy, there's no reason to think his attraction would evaporate the moment he discovered she wasn't. She's probably one of his first crushes he actually feels like he can pursue without outing himself, so it makes sense he'd pursue her in his own shy, clueless way.
    • Disappear? Then what the hell is Yosuke teaseing him about on 10/27?
      • That's just it. That's literally the last major hint the game gives. I've found out that there are optional party talks in dungeons if you go back after you've cleared a new dungeon before a deadline. Kanji becomes really uncomfortable if Naoto mentions her romantic relationship with the main character in one of them, but aside from those optional encounters, the game painfully drops that particular development. As everything stands, it feels like the main character went behind Kanji's back and everything was accepted as is. I would've liked some more resolution.
      • I always sort of took it as "Kanji and Naoto worked it out off-camera". He doesn't have any problems with being around her after that, and on the last day, if you go to Junes instead of going home they stand with each other. It's still ambiguous enough to leave the matter uncertain, but it does definitely make them look more comfortable with each other.
      • Kanji's attraction to Naoto was just that, attraction. It was meant to be a one-sided crush that added fuel to the fire of whether he was gay or straight by having him attracted to girl who dresses like a boy. It wasn't really meant to be taken seriously at all.
    • But mostly it's because despite the catchy theme tune, navigating a maze of relationships in a high school group isn't nearly as much fun once everyone starts fighting over who-should-be-with-who. Fun for us, but not nearly as much if the entire teams S. Link breaks because you stole 'his' crush, went behind 'her' back, and were punished in the RPG part for all the average backstabbing and romance tangling that normal teenagers go through.
      • Keep in mind, that the protagonist is able to enter a lover relatioship with everyone- at the same time. No reprucussions, whatsoever, this destroys any Chie/Yosuke, Naoto/Kanji, Rise/Protagonist- relationship potential, so in storyine they cannot act upon their emotions without screwing over the other possible 'lover' routes. My personal opinion on the matter of homosexuality is as Brosuke said "[Kanji's] emotions going haywire". I saw Kanji's feelings for Naoto so powerful, that he was still attracted to her- even when he thought she was a guy; he wasn't shown to have any 'intrests' in men until we saw Kanji with her (albeit we didn't see much of him before that) and as a previous troper stated, he obviously stil had intrests for her after she was 'revealed'. I found the perception that their (or at least Kanji's) subliminal connection was so intense as to make him think himself as gay; questioning his own identity, proved emotionally satisfying as a player. I was actually going for a homosexual character but damnit, they are so good together. I can also expand on this by adding he showed no interest in Brosuke or the the Protagonist aka the greatest player on earth.
      • Besides, Kanji was obviously waiting for Protagonist to leave Inaba so he could make his move.
      • I have to agree on the one-sided thing. While it seems clear to me that Kanji was, indeed, still attracted to Naoto at least near the end, I've never seen any sign at all of her reciprocating. However interested he may have been, her total lack of response may have simply caused him to give up eventually.
    • If you don't have Naoto and Kanji in your party, they occasionally appear in whatever dungeon you're exploring and talking to them gives you a brief conversation with Kanji still being Adorkable around Naoto. It doesn't just stop out right but it's never forced on the player in case they chose the relationship route with her. Can't Kanji be allowed a crush and we all accept that it's just that, a high school crush?
    • This came after the game of course, but if I recall correctly, Yosuke teased Kanji about this crush in Persona 4 Arena, which takes place after the game, and there are a few other instances that hint his crush hasn't disappeared, it's just that the game didn't want it getting in the way of the MC if he wanted to become a couple with her.
    • As of Golden, in the Ski trip the gang takes Kanji hangs around Naoto the entire time trying to teach her skiing (a fact which is lampshaded by the others) and that results in a standard [[Ship Tease]] moment where she falls onto him and they both blush rather furiously. That'd probably be a punch if the protagonist DID romance Naoto.

    Nanako's bedtime television habits 
  • Based on the fact that Protagonist can return downstairs after opting to watch the Midnight Channel and still see Nanako sitting in front of the TV, Nanako regularly stays up past midnight watching TV. It might be plausible, since Dojima isn't the most attentive parent, but still. He doesn't even care on the days where he's actually there when she does it.
    • Uhh...exactly when does the game allow you to go back downstairs on the same night that you have to watch the midnight channel?
    • For that matter, Protagonist can watch the Midnight Channel, then go tutor an elementary-school student. Is midnight earlier in Inaba than it is in the rest of the world or something?
      • This actually seems to be supported, as sometimes after you watch the midnight channel it'll say 'you decided to go to bed early.' A midnight bedtime isn't usually considered early.
    • Midnight channel only shows up if you stare into a turned off TV. Nanako is not necessarily staring, she's watching, and the TV is on. Even if it was off, she wouldn't see it unless she was sitting there focusing on the screen.
    • I don't know if something was changed between original P4 and Golden, but in Golden at least days on which you watch the Midnight Channel are days in which you're not allowed to do anything else for the evening.
    • You can actually watch the Midnight Channel on regular rainy nights when the game isn't forcing you to and run downstairs immediately after. But as an above troper stated, the TV Nanako is watching is on, which would explain why Nanako never seems to see the Midnight Channel.

    Naoto's gun license 
  • Why does Naoto have a gun? I'm not complaining or anything, but given Japan's strict gun control laws, I'm surprised that a random high schooler would have one, detective or not
    • The same reason your hero can purchase and carry a sword. Then again, Naoto has enough privilege as a detective that she could have bent the rules enough to acquire one. I think her gun is also a reference (like everything else about her) to the Devil Summoner franchise, since the lead characters in all those games carry guns.
      • Naoto is a private detective and not a police detective. The only justification for it is Rule of Cool and referring to the earlier SMT games.
      • To be fair, I think it's stated early on if you talk to Daidara that you want weapons that you're able to "hide under your school uniforms" or something to that effect. Since Daidara is a bit of an "art" fanatic he doesn't seem to care, so you might be able to let that slide under the fence as far as morals go. Now, I can understand being able to hide small knives/wrenches, fans, guns, and maybe claws/gloves along those guidelines. The bigger issue is how Kanji can potentially hide a whole school desk on himself, especially in his summer attire.
      • Actually, he can just hide the shields that he uses later in a big shopping bag. It's Narukami who has a slight problem hiding his sword...
      • Since he can use a golf club, I assumed he kept his weapon in a golf club bag thing.
      • Wait, if Protagonist takes his weapon to the Velvet Room and leaves it there does it stay so he can pick it up later(one of the Velvet doors is next to the weapon shop after all)?
    • Actually, come to think of it, why does a blacksmith working in a small town know how to make a gun from raw materials? Doesn't that require a lot of tiny moving parts?
      • Modern firearms, handguns especially, actually have very few parts, most of which are fairly large and made of metal. The other parts are actually fairly common or easy to make. Look up a video on how to disassemble a handgun and you'll see that there isn't very much to a gun.
      • The guy is able to make new weapons out of anything. Out of materials he hasn't even seen before, materials that according to scientific record don't even exist. And he is able to make fifty new swords with it in one afternoon. There is probably something to this dude that we're not getting to see.
    • I assume that she doesn't have a gun, and it's just a prop. However, in the TV World, it works because it's a realm that operates on perceptions. People see a detective holding a gun and trying to fight monsters with it? Then it is a gun. Hell, given her Social Link it's probably a fake gun that she built that functions as a lie detector or something.
      • This mentality is further confirmed by the way the Metaverse of Persona 5 works for weaponry given that all of the characters can fire real bullets using toy guns in the Metaverse.
  • I imagine that Naoto's Grandfather called in some favors, if the Shirogane name is as celebrated as it seems.
  • She's a young girl who regularly involves herself in murder cases. That's a dangerous line of work, so the Police Department might have looked the other way at her having a weapon for self-defense. After all, if they hire her for a job and she gets killed doing it, that's on them.

    Personas and Izanami 
  • On the topic of Personas, near the end it's hinted that the Personas/Shadows, like the TV world, are shaped by human thoughts. This explains why the Personas all resemble, in name and appearance, figures from branches of myth and legend. What I'm confused about is if Izanami was really a goddess, just a glorified Shadow running along the same rules as a Persona, or if I wasn't paying attention.
    • Izanami states that she is really a goddess, hence why the fight appeared to be hopeless.
      • So having a massive ego automatically makes you a god? That's nice to know.
      • Being unkillable with the exception of an attack that can only be used by an ascended being helps.
      • Ok, Hopeless Boss Fight and an ego.
      • I beg to differ. The fact that Izanami is even possible to kill via some kind of attack indicates that she's not at the same level as the other Gods in the Persona series - beings like Erebus, Nyarlathotep, and Philemon cannot be destroyed unless the fundemental nature of mankind changes (or if sentient life were to go extinct, I suppose), and Nyx cannot be destroyed period. Izanami seemed more like a "collective" Shadow; the cast-off bits of ego of an entire society. Such a being would be incredibly powerful, but still capable of being destroyed like other Shadows.
      • Do you know how Izanami became the goddess of death in the first place? She had died giving birth to the Shinto fire god. And in many mythologies gods are able to kill other gods. Also attaining the World Arcana most likely the same as achieving Nirvana(beings who ascend through Nirvana are themselves god-like). Hell in SMT 2 you kill YHWH, and the character there doesn't even need to be ascended. Further, Izanami may be a god but unlike Erebus(which isn't even a god just a physical manifestation of an ever present concept) her existence was not dependent on the state of the human mind. Besides how are you so sure that Myriad Truths wouldn't have killed Nyx as well? Even Igor states the World Arcana gives its user the power to defeat "that which cannot be defeated". P3's MC didn't seal Nyx because he couldn't kill her, he sealed Nyx because she wasn't the real problem in the first place. Of course it is questionable how powerful the World Arcana makes any given human; as Protagonist went a step beyond just killing Izanami and completely wiped her from existence.
      • You can't really compare the SMT main series to the Persona series; the latter is much more symbolic and less Fantasy Kitchen Sink in nature. It also tends to hold to a more Cosmic Horror aesthetic in that the big nasties are impossible to truly destroy. Incidentally, a "physical manifestation of an everpresent concept"... Yeah, um, I don't know if you noticed, but that's the only kind of god in the Persona series - mythological gods don't exist other than as forms Personas and Shadows/Demons can take. And no, you cannot destroy Nyx. This was pretty blatantly stated. I don't know where you heard otherwise.
      • Not really... in Revelations: Persona,you kill gods as they are in the main SMT and you kill a being that in effect is a god with reality warping that is just the heroine's concept of self which by that point in the story can't really be destroyed.
      • Nyx being indestructible was stated by a shadow and some human beings, and they weren't exactly right about all hope being lost(otherwise everybody would have died) or even Nyx wanting to destroy the world in the first place. Her indestructibility was never truly set in stone as an immutable fact. And I heard otherwise from Igor, go to 9:27 in the video and continue until 9:53. Also neither Izanami, Nyx, nor Philemon are personae/shadows. And they're not directly influenced by the collective human mind either(okay it's debatable whether or not Phil is), they're the real deal.
      • No, they are ABSOLUTELY manifestations of collective human sentience; only Nyx, as a manifestation of Death and the fear thereof, predates mankind. For crying out loud, that's the whole concept behind Persona! Are you telling me you completely missed the entire overarching Jung-Meets-Lovecraft theme of the series? Additionally, "the power to defeat the undefeatable" is in no way the same as "destroy the indestructible". Sealing Nyx away again would certainly count as "defeating."
      • But that contradicts your first point, that Izanami is a product of the Collective Unconsciousness. If she was Atlus would have atleast made a point of adding an "as long as humanity blah blah blah I will always exist" speech(or atleast implying that this was the case), but nowhere did they imply that Izanami would be back. She knew she was gone forever when she spoke her final words. Not all gods are infallible/absolute in mythology, and since SMT usually clings very strongly to the mythologies they use that's not gonna change; not even for persona. On a different note, Nyx is the fear of death too?
      • I'd like to point out that the only person who asserts the final boss is the Goddess Izanami of myth is the final boss herself. Whose primary domain seems to be deception. Who's to say she isn't a Shadow that became strong and intelligent enough to enter the real world, or something similar? She's powerful and manipulative, but that doesn't mean she's a deity.
      • The presence of unnaturally intelligent animals like Koromaru and the Shrine Fox, as well as Shinji and the Sun arcana guy from 3 wishing you luck before fighting Nyx from beyond the grave, suggests there are some supernatural things out there not directly related to the human psyche and the Jung meets Lovecraft stuff. I mean yeah she could just a be a really powerful shadow that breaks the rules and has powers that are very weird even by their standards even if she isn't one of those unkillable manifestations of a basic idea like Philemon(who was truth if I remember right) Nyarlotep(who was lies, especially to oneself) or Nyx (fear of death), but her being an actual goddess is not out of the question by any means as this world is not just our world with Shadows and Personas, it's our world with shadows, personas, super smart animals, Magitek Robot Girls and ghosts. That's not even including stuff from the first two games, which include mainline MegaTen demons like Pixies and Nekomatas as random encounters (which would make sense considering that NPC Tamaki/Tammy Uchida is also the protagonist of Shin Megami Tensei if...), plus a fairy who runs the healing springs and is explicitely stated to be an exile from her actual world.
      • Two points: first, people keep talking about Protagonist using the World Arcana to defeat Izanami. I think you're talking about the Universe Arcana, and no, he didn't; Myriad Truths is not quite the same thing. So far, P3's MC is the only character to have used the Universe Arcana. Igor states he'd never seen it before, and there's no mention of it at all in P4. Second, Igor states that the power of the Universe means nothing is impossible for the user, which suggests to me that the MC could, indeed, have destroyed Nyx. He didn't because, as is revealed in The Answer, Nyx wasn't the real problem; and, I would postulate, because he had no idea what would happen if he outright destroyed the embodiment of death itself. In short, Nyx could have been destroyed, but it might not have been a good idea, and either Protagonist was not using the same power his predecessor was.
      • They don't mean the Universe Arcana, which was only in P3, they mean what they say, The World Arcana, which is the actual in-game Arcana of Izanagi-no-Okami if you look at his actual usable persona in a second playthrough. The major difference between the two most prevalently used/referenced Tarot decks is that one has the Universe card while the other instead has the World card, hence the presence of both Arcanas in the series.
      • Don't forget that Igor also referred to Izanami as a godly being. He also said that she was "driven back" which may imply that she's not completely dead.
    • Calm down there people, this is a videogame and they have very different concepts for what a GOD is, and i dare to say Izanami IS NOT A GOD. Shin Megami Tensei gods are the real deal, they can destroy/create universes at will. Persona "gods" are just critters with super powers, something between Shaman King and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and shadows are not demons, you can kill them with normal weapons(Not cyber swords or demonic claws). BE WARNED THAT Persona 1 and 2 are not connected (aside from cameos) with Persona 3 and 4, that means persona 2 heroes are much stronger than P3 and P4 heroes, since Philemon and Nyarlathotep give you personas, and the whole game spins around a bet these two made to see if humans are good or bad. Nyarlathotep doesn't even look hurt after you defeat him, and later Philemon resets the whole universe creating a different timeline. These two are true Reality Warper GODS! Now, you guys think Nyx was strong? Demi-fiend kills Nyxes for random encounters, Nyx never killed anyone, she just made zombies and threated to end all the life in the world, the P3 protagonist, with his almighty universe arcana, only managed to act as a seal. Izanami was even weaker, she can only kill people around Inaba and she has to rely on weather conditions, her motives are terribly explained (She wants to fill the world with fog, i get it i get it) and she is the one who gives you Izanagi in first place! And, until proven otherwise, Yu just used The Power of Friendship to destroy her forever. Overall you can deny that Persona 4's plot is not the game's focus(Or else this page wouldn't be so big right?), there are lot of unanswered questions and everything seems like an Ass Pull. Teddie can turn in to a human just as Izanami, and humans can get personas from shadows, she can be defeated by teenagers. Besides having the name IZANAMI, she is just a really big and strong shadow. Since Persona 3 and 4 share the same universe, even Aigis can fight her, and she is just a Robot Girl with artificial persona.
    • ... yeah, I can't really make heads nor tails of that. Anyhoo, she's different from the Personas that you summon because all those are is a facet of your character. Tomoe has nothing to do with the historical Tomoe Gozen, but is just the form that Chie's personality takes in combat based on the historical character. Izanagi is different from a Persona or Shadow because she's not an aspect of one person's personality she seems to be her own creature (closer to a Demon in the Shin Megami Tensei series).
    • Point of note: Although the MegaTen games share common ancestry, their mythologies aren't remotely linked, and their symbolism is drastically different. "The Demifiend kills Nyxes as random encounters" because, in mainline MegaTen, Nyx IS just a demon based upon the primordial Greek goddess of the night, on the same level as Tiamat or Ometeotl or Amaterasu or other primordial deities. In the Persona universe (at least 3 and 4, POSSIBLY 1) Nyx is the personification of Death itself, because humanity's Collective Unconscious tries to comprehend death any way it can. Conversely, Lucifer and Satan and Metatron and the Archangels may be big shots in mainline MegaTen, but in the Persona universes, you can summon them as no big deal, with no effect on the world or your "alignment." So comparing how gods and demons in the primary series work with what the Personas of the spinoff represent is sketchy at best.
    • Er, guys? Don't shadows bear some resemblance to their ego? Both physically and more importantly in terms of power? They also can't manifest unless the ego is alive, I think, and they completely go berzerk after being denied. What kind of ego does it have to be for the denied part's inactivated to be a rotting, all-mighty, carcass who can kill people with hell? Also, Marie. They're stated to be two halves of one whole. So some ego is both suppressing a crazy goddess of deceit and a sweet amnesiac girl? I'm going to have to go with goddess.
      • I think Marie's social link in Golden explains it. After rescuing Marie and defeating Izanami, she mentions that the Izanami you fought was a fragment of her, and that her real name is Izanami-no-Mikoto. So the Izanami that gave Adachi, Namatame, and MC their powers basically IS a Shadow but a goddess's Shadow!
      • Persona 4 Golden combines the two; Marie both mentions that Izanami-No-Mikoto is the goddess of Japan who was also formed by the collective subconscious wish in people's hearts.
      • I guess that could work, but Marie's denial only really carried over to her not wanting to know what she was. She states that she split into two because Marie and Izanami had differing goals despite being one entity, and thus split, with Marie getting the short end of the stick.
      • Guys, what are you talking about? Nyx is a being that was confirmed to PREDATE humanity. She exists as a being that personifies Death itself. In fact, ALL humans possess a fragment of Nyx's own consciousness in them, being the Shadows. Humans DEPEND on the Shadows to survive. When the Shadows are forcibly extracted from them, they become the Lost, because they cannot function without their Shadow. When Nyx awakens and arrives to the world, she literally extracts all the Shadows into herself and kills every human being in the process. Also, there's no confirmation on whether Nyx actually can be destroyed even by the Universe Arcana, but for the sake of argument, let's say that she can. That's the same as killing her consciousness and by extension, the Shadows. Great job, by killing Nyx killed all of humanity as well. I don't know whether she's equal to, superior to, or inferior to Nyarlathotep or Philemon, but Nyx is essentially the god of humans themselves. The other gods and goddesses that we see since P3, from Izanami to Yaldabaoth, they are all beings that are born from the collective unconsciousness of human beings. Izanami-no-Mikoto was born that way too, but because humans began changing, Izanami separated into Marie and Izanami, and then Izanami created the two sagiris as well. When Izanami was defeated, she didn't die, but rather returned to Marie. There's no understanding on whether Izanami would have been really killed, but so long as humanity wished for her existence, then like Erebus, she would undoubtedly return.

    Why doesn't Teddie fight bear naked? 
  • When Teddie joins the party, why he doesn't just fight in human form? It's stated in the prologue section that mascot-Teddie has practically no muscle, and the little training montage shtick he does after getting his Persona hardly seems like it would change that fact overnight. Maybe being a Shadow has something to do with that part? He could just be more comfortable in it, but it seems like a Hand Wave.
    • Teddie is a weak physical fighter, and his stats support that - I always had to watch his health when I used him. He's a pure mage. As for the bear suit, he wears it a lot in the real world too even when he doesn't need to. It would appear to be just one of his quirks. Though I'd have liked to have had his human form in my party too...
      • That and his human form has no way of equipping his weapons(his weapons are attached to his arm like Aigis').
      • You guys seem to be forgetting something Teddie once said, involving the fact that his eyes are lenses (for the glasses that let the party see through the fog). Less work for him to just keep the suit on.
      • Good point, but for all we know his human eyes could be lenses as well. Not sure if the game ever addresses it.
      • Shadows and Personae can only exist naturally in the TV world... so maybe Teddie only takes human form in our world?
    • Teddie states outright during the Inn trip that he doesn't feel comfortable without the suit, which is why he takes it everywhere with him. Obviously, fighting in the form he feels most comfortable in makes him more effective in battle.
    • I wish he did fight as a human, then maybe he wouldn't squeak when he walked and I could stand to take him into dungeons.
    • "I always bring it with me. I feel naked without it."
    • Didn't Yosuke say he end Teddie if he(Teddie)got dirt on his clothes. The ones the girls got Teddie with Yosuke new bike fund. so it maybe so Teddie want to live longer.
    • You can stop complaining now. Some of Teddie's alternate costumes in Persona 4 Golden allow him to fight in his human form Including his crossdressing costume.

    Entrances and Exits to the TV World 
  • At the start of the game, Teddie says that only he can open a door back to the real world in the TV World, and that's why they can't use other TVs to enter and rescue who has been kidnapped because of the risk that Teddie wouldn't be able to find the party. But why do they still use the same TV to enter the TV World after Teddie goes to the real world if he can just go in first and check if it's safe and open a door to go back from there? And when Teddie leaves the party temporarily after Nanako's "death", the party goes to the TV to search for Adachi without Teddie to open the door and it doesn't appear in it's regular place, so how come they can go back to the real world after this?
    • Maybe Rise has the same power, that or it's a Plot Hole.
    • My guess is he never closed the way out. When he leaves after Nanako's "death" it feels like he just jumped into a random TV as he doesn't recognize the scenery he's in. It's also likely that Rise has the same ability.
    • As to using the same TV when Teddie's there, I think the simplest answer is that 1. It's the only TV available that's big enough, since you need to be able to fit inside the TV, and Junes is the best place since it always has a big screen they can fit through. And 2. They're used to using that spot at this point. They think of their table at the food court as their secret headquarters, why change things now?
    • I'm pretty sure Teddy says only he can open the door to get back out of the TV World. As to why using the same TV, using a different could quite possibly drop them in a completely different part of that world rather than the entrance we all know as the starting hub, which is void of Shadows.
    • Actually, it seems that when Teddie summons an Exit, it stays there until he bothers to close it (as revealed in Persona 4: Arena). It's likely that he just got into the habit of leaving it open particularly after he starts living in the Human world.
      • I'm pretty sure P 4 U specifically has Yosuke state he told Teddie to leave the exits open in case someone accidentally fell in.

    Teddie's height diff-bearence 
  • How come does Teddie appear shorter in his bear costume than in human form?
    • He's effectively shape-shifting, it's not like he just wears the suit again when you go back to the Midnight Channel(after he puts the suit on the human body probably fades away or something).

    The Protagonist's sleeping habits 
  • On April 16th it says you decide to "go to bed early". Except that the scene explicitly takes place after midnight. When the hell does the protagonist normally go to bed? He has had 5 days to adjust his sleep cycle (and that doesn't even work, I just checked, Japan is in a single time zone) and LTIC the normal time for that is shorter.
    • Persona 3's MC also considered after midnight normal.
    • Not only that, but - how many 17 year olds do you know who go to bed before 12? This troper's boarding school is usually up until 1:30ish in the morning. Going to bed at 12 out there is pretty early.
      • This troper actually had a 10PM bedtime until the age of 18, and still rarely goes to bed much later than midnight. But there is nothing to suggest the Protagonist doesn't stay up a significant portion of the night anyway - folding hundreds of envelopes is gonna take a while.
    • As mentioned above, it's fairly common for teenagers the protagonist's age to stay up incredibly late. This is because teenagers just have a different internal clock from both children and adults, most teenagers generally sleep later in the night and are only well-rested when they wake up later in the day.

    The Protagonist's accent 
  • The protagonist's voice is kept in the translation, but no one else's is. The accent clash is really odd.
    • The only word Protagonist says in a cutscene is "Persona", when he first gets his freak on. Otherwise, he might grunt or something. In-game, the only time he says anything is in battle, when he yells "Persona!", or calls the name of the Persona he's summoning. I guess Atlus decided they could save a few bucks by not bringing in a voice actor to rerecord Protagonist's lines.
    • What are you talking about? Protagonist is voiced- it's very clearly Johnny Yong Bosch.
    • Seriously, it's obvious that is the same person in the cutscenes that is doing the battles - the Japanese voice sounds *very* different and doesn't pronounce all of the Personas the same way (especially the longer names). Furthermore, Johnny Yong Bosch is also voicing Adachi, so if anything, they saved a few bucks by having him double up since Protagonist probably only took all of ten minutes to record all of his audio.
      • The way Protagonist shouts persona still sounds pretty damn odd though.
      • That's because Bosch has a very distinctive yelling/shouting voice(just listen to Nero from Devil May Cry 4, no matter how different his characters sound they all yell the same way).
      • And it is an awesome voice.
      • I'll drink to that.
      • I agree. But, not to be an elitist or anything - but Bosch's voice is very distinctive, and while him and Daisuke Namikawa (the Japanese VA) both have young sounding, nice voices, when Bosch does his Protagonist voice, it's pretty rough, probably to differentiate from from Adachi, who's smoother and more upbeat. While I haven't heard much of the Japanese audia, Namikawa's voice seems to be lower and smoother as well - and he also isn't very good at Engrish. Much as I love him.

    Motives and Crazy Television Killer People 
  • Your looking for a person who kills people by throwing them in TV's letting them be destroyed by the personification of their negative traits while you save them with the powers of various deityies and other mythological creatures, and your problem is that no one could have a motive?
    • It's a bit of a plot point that the Inaba Scooby Gang are terrible investigators.
    • Well the fact is that even if they did catch the murderer, they couldn't do anything to him unless they found a motive. Not only that, but wouldn't you be curious as to why a murderer is killing people in such an odd way?
    • The problem with that (and what bugs me after the reveal) is that method of killing is itself a motive. Adachi himself pretty much says it. He kills people this way because he can, and no one can stop him. It makes the insistence on finding a motive rather pointless, because the unusual circumstances create a motive in themselves.
    • But they don't know that before Adachi says it. During the course of their investigation, they can't possibly fathom the idea that someone would be committing murders for no reason other than "just because they could."
      • "I did it just because I could" isn't a "motive" though, is the thing, it's a explanation for a lack of motive. You can't, realistically speaking, just abandon the idea of there being no motive via a lack of motive in the first place. Not only is that backwards, it's also, contrary to what people might think, a very uncommon occurrence. People usually have some motive, as minimal, hard to comprehend, or twisted in the mind of the culprit as said motive may be. "I did it for literally zero reason other then the hell of it" is a very uncommon occurrence. It's not exactly surprising that most people would brush it off, let alone a group of amateur high schoolers.

    Mitsuo/Morooka Deathmatch 
  • I'm having a hard time trying to imagine how in blazes Mitsuo managed to overpower Morooka, let alone bludgeon him to death. The game never goes in detail on how he committed the murder, aside for Naoto telling us that Kinshiro died via blunt force trauma to the head and Mitsuo's game log that indicates the teacher of the year at least put up a fight before buying the farm.
    • And while we are at it Why did Shadow Mitsuo just disappeared after the battle? Didn't somebody say if a person doesn't accept his shadow, like Mitsuo did, said shadow would go berserk again?
    • Power and ability count for nothing against cheap shots. Odds are good Mitsuo punked him after Morooka cursed him out, and from there started bludgeoning him.
      • I think what happen was that Morooka was talking crap to Mitsuo. Morooka turn his back to Mitsuo as he was leaving, Mitsuo takes out a blunt object and then whack Morooka upside the head with it. Morooka probably didn't know that his life was in danger around this kid. As for his Shadow, all I can think of is that after defeating his shadow it burst into mist like the other random shadows and rematerialized somewhere else, kinda like Namatame's shadow.
      • This theory falls apart when you realize that Mitsuo doesn't even go to the same school as our heroes, and would have no reason to be bitched at by Morooka.
      • Mitsuo actually did go to the same school but Morooka caused him to be expelled before the events of the game, hence...the reason why he hates Morooka. The game even mentions that Mitsuo had his eyes on Yukiko since they were kids but she never paid him any mind. Even if he did, Inaba's pretty small and it wouldn't be hard for them to cross, much less for Morooka to piss Mitsuo off (kid's on a hinge and Morooka's an asshole).
      • The idea that Morooka turned his back to Mitsuo is supported by Naoto's description of Morooka's corpse. She says that he was killed with a blunt force trauma to the occipital cranium. Look up occipital cranium on Wikipedia or Google, and you'll see it refers to the back of the head. So that implies that Mitsuo snuck up on him and hit him from behind.
    • Well, Mitsuo's Shadow was the embodiment of his feelings of neglect and desire for attention, right? He got attention, so his shadow disappeared.
      • Actually lack of attention wasn't his true problem, his true problem was feeling empty. Searching for attention was just his way of filling the void(besides if attention was the case his shadow should of disappeared as soon has he gave his "I'm the murderer" rant, but instead it still mutated). Also you don't have to overpower someone to beat the crap out of them with a blunt object. Besides, King Moron isn't exactly the peak of physical perfection. Finally his shadow disappearing could be a result of the fact that Mitsuo kind of went bat shit insane at some point and/or that he had somehow convinced himself that he didn't feel empty(yeah right) but still lacked the ego to control a Persona.
      • I think that Mitsuo's emptiness led him to believe that his live was meaningless and fueled his desire to draw attention through the worst way possible to justify his existence, as acknowledged by his Shadow during the battle ("I.. I need proof that I exist.. that's why... I have to kill you.")
      • Guys, it was his soul dying.
      • I think the reason Mitsuo's shadow disappeared in the end was that, in a way, he's already accepted it. You'll notice that after the fight, he does not openly deny his shadow, and instead just goes on about how he's the killer. It's possible that, even though he doesn't say it, deep down he's accepted that he's a sad, pathetic human being who had to resort to murder just to be noticed. Even so, he obviously wouldn't have the strength of heart to command a Persona, so that's why his shadow just disappeared. Also, if you listen to the way he speaks once they're outside of the TV World, everything he says sounds half-hearted and insincere. This can really be heard in his insults; when he calls Teddie a "freak" and Yukiko "desperate", it sounds almost painful for him to say, because those insults are actually things he believes about himself. Of course, this could always just be me looking too deeply into things.
    • To be fair, the game logs were full of lies anyway. Mitsuo could have snuck up on Morooka and knocked him unconscious before he could fight back.
    • He "defeated" Mayumi and Saki, but he "killed" Morooka, as stated in the game logs. So either way, he had himself delusioned to believe that he killed all of them even if that was incorrect. His Shadow was a symbol of his delusions; he's really just a baby who never got any attention, but fills his void with video games and delusions himself into believing that it makes him a hero.
      • If you think about it...the Shadow Bosses each have a reversed Arcana-Theme, in Mitsuos case the Hermit. The Reverse-Hermit represents (just like you said) a socially isolated person who has failed to master himself or come to terms with his isolation, but it also has complete disregard and no respect for society and is inhumane, which is symbolic since Mitsuos-Shadow uses a synthetic shell (Mitsuo the Hero) covering a warped parody of a young child. It also has a voice that sounds synthetic and atonal.
      • This is pretty much exactly the case. By continually denying it, he was in fact EMBRACING the reversed aspects of the Hermit Arcana, namely willful ignorance and a lack of self-control, in essence BECOMING his shadow. The other characters also start as reversed versions (even the S-Links who never confront their shadows directly), and through the course of things address the issues and become upright representations of what the cards represent. Mitsuo never goes through the phase of moving on, staying at the negative aspects.

  • Protagonist is bounds ahead of any other healer in the game thanks to access to the invigorate line, would it have hurt to give some of the other party members access to invigorate?
    • Is invigorate the one that slowly restores SP? In that case just hand someone the Chakra Ring from Heaven's second visit. Or if you're like me you'd be able to manage SP to the point where 10 consecutive battle don't even cause a visible dent(just tootin' my own horn there, granted it took me until I got Rise's final ability to do that).
      • Because waiting till almost the end of the game>something that can be fused by the 2nd dungeon) and can be fused further along with significant ease (threw Sarasvati) M I rite?. SP management is little hard when you are dealing with the most SP intense action.
      • Try using lower tier attacks(for normal enemies) like still using garu when everybody else is using garula. Even before Rise's SP restore and the Chakra Ring I could manage SP to a point where my profit from slaying shadows was slightly higher than the cost of the Fox's SP leaves. Also go to earlier dungeons for some extra money, when you go back to an early dungeon at a higher lvl the money rewards increase(try testing this out, I haven't done a money grind in Yukiko's castle in a while) you won't even have to waste SP if you weapons are strong enough since you can 1, 2, or 3 hit enemies to death and their damage output is sad(again depends on your level and try to stay on floors 3-5).
      • ^except it was about healing, and that's a little hard to safely do under.
    • You want a Shin Megami Tensei game to be easier? Blasphemy!

    Health and the TV World 
  • When Naoto has everyone's health checked because of the fog, everyone acts like they never thought about it, but after Chie's shadow it was established that going around without the glasses caused headaches.
    • The fog causes fatigue(like the dark hour) not headaches. Even with the glasses she just wanted to make sure the Midnight Channel wasn't affecting them in a way they couldn't notice.
      • Ok, forgot the specifics, but the issue was more on the acting as though they never thought it could be harmful when they saw it first hand.
      • Well, actually, I remember from their very first venture into the TV - the fog did cause them to get headaches, and feel ill. But, I agree with the person below - the fact of the matter is that the group doesn't really think about things. And we love them for that.
      • As much as we all love the Inaba Scoobies, they're a bit lacking in common sense. It probably never occurred to them, since they don't feel any effects because of the glasses. Naoto's the only one with a lick of sense, and thus the only one to think of such a thing.
      • I just assumed that the headache they got without the glasses was a stress headache from straining their eyes, since that's what happens when I don't wear my glasses.

    Yamano's autopsy 
  • I thought that rape would be pretty visible during an autopsy, Adachi would have to kill the coroner (and that would raise further questions and likely have the body reexamined) to reasonably prevent that from getting out, so that explanation doesn't work.
    • I think Yamano was already in the TV before he got the chance.
      • Yep, neither of them was actually raped, the screaming was from them falling a long distance(through the TVs).

    Inaba, the home of crazy people 
  • Why is everyone in Inaba a mental case? Or is Protagonist just a magnet for this kind of thing?
    • Everybody has problems deep down, hell compared to P3 the social link issues are actually kind of average. Maybe Protagonist just looks like the kind of guy you can dump your baggage on.
      • Well, this troper rather or not connected it with the usual rule of dealing with people and their problems - all most people want is someone who will listen to them. And, Protagonist is essentially a mute, so he doesn't really do much besides listen.

    Money Money Money 
  • Everyone wants to go in the TV between dungeons for experience, but never for money you get for it?
    • Teens are just way too pure-hearted in RPGs.
      • Pure hearted? MegaTen? Regardless, Yosuke is regularly complaining about the cost of Teddie's clothes, so no excuse there.
      • Other than to be a jerk to Chie.
      • Yosuke also regularly states that he's saving up to buy a motorcycle to replace that POS bike of his. That's why he has that part-time job at Junes. Chie spending his money on clothes for someone else, even if it's Teddie, is gonna tick him off. Especially since she says herself that it was expensive. (Also, she spent his money without getting his permission first, which is a legitimate reason to be pissed at her. She basically stole from him.)
      • In Golden he bought his bike already, so he is broke, Chie's purchase left him with quite the debt, so he has a reason to be pissed.
      • Maybe the money materializes in Protagonist's pockets—like the Persona cards appear out of nowhere. He doesn't tell anyone because, let's face it, assembling envelopes for all your spending money has to suck.
      • I guess Igor knows about every shadow wiped off existence and for each one slain, he gives Protagonist some money for his efforts.
      • They probably figure that any money obtained in the TV World is best invested in the exploration itself, and whatever equipment and consumables they'll need to survive there. Yosuke won't have a motorcycle to spend on if the party can't purchase that Revival Bead that can bring him back to life in a pinch. Since Protagonist is their leader, cornerstone party member, and most level-headed of the group, they probably believe he's the best choice for managing their finances.
    • Strain 42 offers an alternative explanation here
    • You earn four times as much money when questing solo, that means that your money IS split among your team members but only those who quest with you.

    Those totally normal deities living in your brain 
  • The mythology references are brought up in the true ending, but why does no one bat an eyelash at every other deity (like Thor) that Protagonist can use, only at Izanami?
    • From their dialogue it seems none of the characters even knew who Izanami was.
      • Naoto flat out says that she is from Japanese mythology.
      • Oh right, strange that everyone else is oblivious though. Hell, they had a lesson involving both Izanagi and Izanami during the Gekkokan field trip.
      • I highly doubt that anyone from the team other than Naoto (and perhaps Protagonist) was actually paying attention to Edogawa's long ass lecture. That might explains it.
      • They were probably used to Personas just being Summon Magic; when Izanami showed up with a mind of her own, talking and manipulating things, it was a bit of a shock.

    The real killer's motive 
  • About the real culprit Did Adachi actually do it for the eviluz? There's this subtext that says otherwise. After pushing Saki into the TV, Adachi complaints about today's youth and mentions that, when he was a student, he wasn't allowed to do anything but "studying [his] ass off" and then says he was supposed to the "best of the best" but got send to halfway to the middle of nowhere after a minor screw up instead. Then during the final confrontation at Magatsu Mandala, the insane one rants on how the only ones capable of being successful in life are the ones "born with a magical ticket called 'talent'" and how the rest are a put it simple screwed, that being the reason of why a reality where nothing of this exist appeals him so much. All based on his own experience, of course. And then Yukiko and Naoto stick it to him, calling Adachi an immature, selfish brat that blames the whole damn world for his lousy spot in life, to which Shadow Adachi replies by snapping and yelling that stupid teenagers like them don't have any idea of the shit he's been through. So Adachi's motives, as far I'm concerned, boil down on being a whiny, pathetic Resenter that can't get over the fact that life isn't fair and how Hard Work Hardly Works i.e a classic Freudian Excuse.
    • His real reason may fit in more with the quality that caused Izanami to pick him in the fist place, so is Adachi despair or emptiness? We already know that Protagonist was hope. Though in the case of emptiness For the Evulz kind of makes sense. Similarly to Mitsuo, he was only doing it to fill a void.
      • He was emptiness. Namatame was despair.
      • People keep saying this, but the game never actually confirms it outright. Is there some official information source for this that I'm missing?
    • His whining is the same thing you hear out of every real life moonbat, as far as I know none of them go around throwing people into TVs (strange how perfectly he fits the mold of a typical left wing nutjob, must be an attempt to balance Morooka's right wing nutjob).
    • It seemed as if he were being used as a device, more than as a character. Personally hating the For the Evulz Freudian Excuse, you can look at it a bit differently and see the Adachi fight as the second-to-last warning that the game isn't over yet. One of the subtler themes that pops up near the end is that utter nihilism is destructive (Adachi), but so is blind optimism (Namatame, throwing people into the T.V's without investigating the effects). Adachi calls the main cast out, saying that they're stupid because they're young, that what the world wants is to be consumed in the fog, to be deluded sweetly to sleep. In a roundabout way, he's actually calling the player out. If you defeat Adachi, and then leave the town at the end of the next cutscene, you've proven him right. You 'thwarted' Adachi's nihilism with the same blind optimism that condemned Namatame to do more harm than good, and effectively doom the town to be devoured in the next fog. Only by going beyond the blind Nihilism (Adachi's defeat) and the blind optimism that follows (the goodbye scene) can you truly prove him wrong: You were mature enough to look past your own happy ending.
      • One last thing, he's a serial killer. Is it really so bad to think that a crazy person wouldn't have a logical reason for wanton violence?
      • Perhaps not logical to us, but real serial killers do follow a sense of logic that they are driven by.
    • People who do things for the Evlizu are often self loathing, whiney man children who justify their behavior with similar excuses.

    That scene where Adachi vomits 
  • In Adachi's Vomiting Cop entrance: Is he faking it or what?
    • A few nights ago, you threw someone into a TV by accident. Now that same person was killed, with no means of tracing it back to you. You now realise that you are both a murderer, AND more importantly, can't be caught for it. He likely vomits from the thrill of it, the breaking of the every day normal he'd been a slave to.
      • Really? He didn't know that the TV world was going to end up KILLING her. He knocked her in there by accident at first. Adachi's a sociopath, definitely, but I doubt he went to Inaba planning to murder people. It could be that the initial shock and panic of finding her body caused him to be sick. He probably didn't even think of the whole game thing until Namatame calls the station to warn them about the TV world - Saki's death was just a spur of the moment thing too.
      • A sociopath? Really? This troper hasn't ever considered Adachi of all people a sociopath. The fact that he could be affected by kindness (from Dojima, whose daughter Adachi almost caused the death of) enough to rethink his ways and to decide to be a good person - it felt like he could actually feel guilt and such. And he obviously feels anger and amusement. Adachi's not a sociopath, he's just twisted. It's sort of the feeling I've had towards Adachi the whole time: he's not a naturally evil person. Self-centered and selfish, yes, but evil, no. He wasn't evil until the power went to his head and he realized what he was capable of and what he could get others to do. I always thought that his reaction was entirely genuine to the body. He never realized that throwing her in would kill her. He saw the body and probably panicked, got scared, and threw up as a result. It's actually rather unnerving to me that he likely threw up more from fear that they would find out it was him who killed her, rather that OH GOD A DEAD BODY.
    • We don't really get a good look at the body, maybe it's just really gross. Also, Adachi's a green rookie, and there's no reason to think he had killed before that. It could easily have been a real reaction, which he got over.
    • I think the answer depends on another question: Did Adachi know that she'd end up dead? From the later cutscene, it looked like he put her in there simply to 'punish' her for rejecting him and didn't know what would happen until the body showed up. If that's true, the puking's probably real.
      • No, he didn't know. By that point, there really wasn't any way he could have known what that world would do. And from how startled he was, he also hadn't known that she could go all the way in. He wasn't punishing her by throwing her in - how he was going to punish her was by raping her. The thing is, he pushed her back against something that had a TV on it, and she happened to fall in. Now, Saki, he put in to punish and let die. Mayumi was just a fluke and the discovery.
    • I think there are many factors at work. Consider that as a Cop, Adachi probably understands very very well how hard it is to get away completely with murder. I mean so well that no one even suspects you. There is no such thing as the perfect murder, or at least that's likely what he thought. He'd just killed someone, without anyway whatsoever to trace it back to him. Also, he admitted that he'd never tried to enter the T.V fully before. In fact, up until he pushed Yamano, he wasn't even sure if it was possible. This means that if he hadn't done that, his curiosity might have eventually gotten the best of him, afterall, when you have that kind of power, how can you not go all the way with it? So it may be a combination of "better her than me", along with excitement for doing what is usually damn near impossible, and the final possibility that the he just has a weak stomach for that kind of thing.
    • I don't think Adachi was exactly faking the vomiting at the crime scene. You can't fake "vomiting" that easily, and as a trained police detective, Adachi wouldn't really have a reason to act up having such a strong reaction. From what was seen, Adachi had no idea that Yamano would die inside the TV, nor was he aware that he could push people inside the TV when it happened: he did it in the heat of the moment, and likely expected Yamano to be trapped there for life. It seems he never expected her to reappear somewhere in Inaba. So when Yamano was found dead, the police took action: and remember, Adachi was a member of Inaba's police force at the time. Upon seeing the crime scene, Adachi probably vomited because the realization that he not only killed her, but also that the crime would be investigated by his fellow officers on the force (including Dojima), caused him to freak out. He was likely shocked and scared out of his mind at the time because of the crime turning out the way it did, as well as the fact that his colleagues, including his boss (Dojima), would investigate the crime and could possibly catch onto his action.

     Resemblances between Personas and Shadow Selves 
  • Yosuke's shadow resembles Jiraiya (note that thing on the head), but nobody else's resembles their Persona at all.
    • Chie's, Yukiko's, and Rise's resemble their respective personae(but not as much as Yosuke's), more odd is the fact that Yosuke's, Mitsuo's, and Namatame's are the only ones with no traits from the human.
    • Funny thing about Mitsuo: his concept artwork seen here bears more than a passing resemblance to his shadow self (the floating baby) and somehow managed to be less creepy than his final fish-eyed design.
    • Interestingly Yosuke and Chie's shadows have their Persona's faces with a monstrous form as shadows, the party members who had a monster themed to their dungeon have the same general shape of the shadow but have their characters faces. The exception is Teddie who's shadow and Persona don't resemble each other in the slightest.
      • What are you talking about? Teddie's shadow was a larger, monstrous version of himself. His Persona looks a bit like him, and has his color scheme. As for the missile, however...well, your guess is as good as mine.
      • Kintoki-Douji is based on Kintaro, a Japanese folk-legend; his trademark is a tomahawk. The missile is a tomahawk missile.

     Shadow Selves, Symbolism & You 
  • Looking at the designs for the shadows, one can make a reasonable case for each of them as symbolically representing the character's problems. Yukiko's is a caged bird, Teddie's is empty inside, Rise's is faceless, etc. That being said, how does Yosuke's shadow represent anything? It just looks like a random monster.
    • Yosuke's shadow is cartoony and weird, he's immature and bored with Inaba (meaning he might also be a foil to Adachi?). Also most people miss the true symbolism with Yukiko's cage.
    • It also could just be a pun off of Jiraiya, the mythological master of turning into a frog, explaining its warped, froglike appearance.
      • I didn't notice until my second play-through, but Teddie's Shadow's eyes and its general shape (that is, a big roundish thing half-sunken into the ground) was extremely evocative of Ameno-sagiri's giant eyeball form. When you think about it, it's a nice touch.
    • When my family and I played it, I just assumed it was because Yosuke is a toad. (he is not a popular character in our house.)
    • Yosuke was two faced and so was his shadow. Since he wasn't in there long enough to manifest a dungeon of his own the shadow had nothing to theme itself to so it just manifested as a random monster with vague visual hints of his problem. Chie's did the same thing.
      • ...Vague hints? Chie's problem was obvious - you don't get much more blatant than dominatrix banana head.
    • Look up the proverb of the frog in the well. To summarize it here, the story describes a frog who lives in a small well who meets a turtle who describes the huge size of the ocean. After hearing of it, the frog feels dissatisfied with his relatively small home. So Shadow Yosuke's frog shape is supposed to reference Yosuke's contempt for living in a small rural town and prefers life back in the city. He thinks of himself as the frog in the well.
      • Oh man, that makes so much sense. I also did agree with the idea that Yosuke's is cartoony and odd to reflect Yosuke's childishness and initial self-centered, immature feelings, but this really rounds it out. Funny how Yosuke's the most outspoken of the group, to the point of putting his foot in his mouth at least twice a scene, and yet his shadow's kind of the most vague in the game.

    The Midnight Channel's Audience 
  • When the gang goes into the Midnight Channel, exactly how much can the audience see? It's mentioned in passing during Rise's level that people are watching this? So can they see the full events that go on, or just what the resident shadow wants them to see? Because if they can see everything, then the Inaba Scoobies have a terrible secret identity thing going on.
    • Apparently only the shadow is seen. Though I don't think they see the part where the shadow is attacking its human counterpart(when Protagonist saw Saki's murder it was very hazy).
    • I think the Midnight Channel show is produced by the person's mind (or their Shadow, whatever) and doesn't actually SHOW the inside of the TV world, it just proves they're in there.
    • You could also consider the fact that the Midnight Channel is only on during midnight, when you aren't out exploring the TV world.
      • Except that you can hear people laughing or cheering in the dungeons (Kanji's and Rise's respectively). That's a headscratcher all its own. If the protagonists go into the TV during the day, how are people watching the programs on the Midnight Channel while they're in there?
      • Even if people could see what was actually happening in the TV world what makes you think that you'd be able to hear how the people watching where reacting? The most likely reason for the laughing and cheering has to do with the characters that created the dungeons in the first place. Kanji is terrified of people making fun of his hobbies. Rise is worried about being defined by what audiences react to best, she knows that the image of her the crowd is cheering for has been crafted specifically for that reaction.
    • The Midnight Channel shows what people WANT to see, and thus is massively influenced by what they expect to see. The main cast would likely only show up if people knew about what they were doing. There's no reason to think that what is seen on the Midnight Channel is a 1:1 representation of what is going on in the TV World (and vice-verse, there's no reason to assume that the laughs are the literal laughs that are happening in real time, especially time in the TV World doesn't necessarily match up with time passing in the real world).

    Chie's Rank 10 Social Link 
  • The teammate's social links seem to go along the lines of admitting the problem (when they get their Persona) and getting over it (rank 10), but Chie's rank ten is... doing what she has apparently been doing for a while before you met her while the problem her shadow represents is never brought up again.
    • I interpreted that situation like this. When Chie helped Yukiko in the past, it was because she wanted to be the hero, somebody adored and looked up to. It was a bit of an ego trip for her to be "the strong one". By the end of her social link though that's no longer her motivation. Now she's doing it because she honestly wants to help because she cares. In other words, she started doing it for the wrong reasons, but after she's doing it for the right ones.
    • Yeah, just remember that her Shadow say the real reason of why Chie wanted to protect Yukiko so badly was because she was actually jealous of Yuki's gifts and talents in addition of secretly enjoying having total control over her friend.
    • Pretty much all the party-member girls' social links are like that; they spend most of their ranks struggling with their decision to change their lives, but end up sticking with their current status quo because it would affect the plot if they didn't. Am I the only one who was really disappointed in Yukiko's S Link story, where she makes a concerted effort to become self-reliant and find a career for herself because she hates the idea of managing the inn her whole life, but then decides to stay and run the inn anyway? I don't know whether to call it Status Quo Is God or some twisted variant on Stay In The Cage.
      • Regarding Yukiko, I think that wasn't what needed to be taken from it. At first, as the link wound down, I thought of it the way you did and got upset, but by the time it was done, I understood that the question wasn't "Should Yukiko run the Inn?" but "Is Yukiko strong enough to make that choice for herself?". Her real problem was that Yukiko felt she was too weak to make choices for herself. Since everyone expected that she would follow tradition and take over the Inn, she felt she was forced into it. Rather than confront her weakness and decide what she wanted from life (whether the Inn or else), she dreamed of a handsome prince that would magically solve her problems for her (hence her Shadow). Yukiko's Link was more about her realizing she wasn't that weak - that no magic prince would solve her problems, only she could. Taking steps at alternatives gave her the confidence to believe that she could choose another option if she wanted, so she no longer saw her life choices as pre-ordained. When she chooses to pursue taking over the Inn, it's not because of Status Quo Is God, but because she feels strong enough to make a choice for herself. She actually loved the people who worked there like family and felt very strongly about the reputation and history of her Inn - remember how the first time she dealt with the reporters, she was terrified to talk to them? In her Link, after all this personal growth, she's strong enough to stand up for what she really believes in and chases them off herself. That's when she comes to understand that taking over the Inn isn't something she has to do, but something she wants for herself. She also left her options open - she said she'd try running the Inn and see how it went. She hasn't given up learning other job skills if she finds its not what she wanted. Yukiko's Link wasn't so much about changing her job path, but the journey to making a life choice. I can accept that. Regarding the other girls, I'm not sure what you're getting at with Status Quo Is God. By the end of all the other girl's links, Chie comes to understand that she really cares for others and decides to become a police officer to protect them, Rise has regained her confidence in herself and decides become an idol again, and Naoto comes to grips with her issues of her gender and whether it's an obstacle to wanting to pursue a male-dominated profession. It's the same as the men in the party - Kanji learns to accept his feminine side and Yosuke gets over his conflicted feelings about Saki's death and his life path. The S. Links are about personal growth for your party - the more dramatic, life-changing S. Links are from NPCs.
      • The issue I have with that is that none of the other party S-Links involve major life or career changes, only changes in self-perception (from what I remember, anyway, it's been awhile). Yosuke's S.Link doesn't see him plan to move back to the city, only to decide that he loves Inaba in the process and change his mind. Kanji's S.Link doesn't see him struggle with his feminine side only to realize he's a true man and then disdain all the progress he makes. Chie and Naoto basically come to grips with themselves in a comparatively mild, straightforward way, but Rise and Yukiko at least start out wanting to improve their situations by actively deciding to get out of them, which is not easy, especially for young women, and then deciding that no, everything was fine before, and they themselves were the problem for not accepting their situations for what they were. Yukiko never asks herself what made her feel trapped in the first place, just that she DID feel trapped, and now that she doesn't feel that way, she puts aside all the ambition she discovered and then faithfully pursued the career tradition gave her (considering her strong Yamato Nadeshiko themes, I was really disappointed when she didn't break the stereotype and go off to seek her destiny on her own). Rise doesn't regret getting out of the idol business until another idol comes to take her place— something that she had to have known would happen eventually, just by the nature of the industry, and then she chooses to go back, because she's come to terms with herself as an idol (and because she's jealous of Kanamin's attention, apparently). I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I just don't buy it.
      • Yukiko does realize why she felt trapped and she realizes it had nothing to do with staying at or leaving the Inn, it had to do with her realization that she thought she couldn't run the Inn like everyone thought she would and that's what made her feel trapped. Once the Link is over, she also knows she can leave the Inn if it doesn't work out, so she can try the Inn thing and see where it takes her - the important thing was that she learned she had control of her life. That's the key to her link. She doesn't regress at all - like I said before, she was afraid of being able to run the place and cowered at the reporters when she first met them. After all that personal growth, she had the strength to stand up to them and deal with them herself instead of letting someone else do it for her. That's not a Yamato Nadeshiko stereotype. Besides that, we already learned early on that people only think she's a Yamato Nadeshiko when she's actually a very different kind of person (only Chie knew Yukiko was a goof-off before the events of the game). It's the same with Rise - she could have grown up making tofu and suppressing her cheerier and more vibrant aspects of her personality, which is why she quit showbiz and forced herself to hide in the shop and act like what she thought she was "supposed" to be. Instead, she realized that she wasn't "lying" to herself and she regained the confidence in herself that she lost and decided to try again - from scratch, no less. Even outside the link, you can tell she really did love being the focus of attention, such as in the beauty contest.
      • I get that, I do, but I don't appreciate the way the game presents it. I know that the intended point of all the Social Links is to reinforce the "Search for the Truth" theme in various ways, I just don't like that the "truth" for Yukiko and Rise means returning to lives that they were unhappy with because their self-exploration reveals that they really were happier that way. They gain the confidence to break away, and then do what's expected of them of their own volition. But it still doesn't examine why they felt that way in the first place; Yukiko is intimidated by the business of running the inn. Entirely reasonable for a teenager, except that she's had a hand in the business for longer than the year we see her in game. Why does this still intimidate her? What about it is so overwhelming for her? Why does she need to take steps toward pursuing a new career to prove that she's entirely capable of doing something that she's basically been doing the whole time? Or Rise, for that matter; the first time we see her, she's exhausted and frustrated, hounded by strangers in her home town after she quit being an idol, presumably for those same reasons. Then we do her S.Link, and she more or less handwaves how much trouble she had with it because she realizes that the manufactured aspects of Risette are as valid as any other parts of herself, and decides to go back. For me, it felt rather shoehorned in and then crowbarred out because the S.Link story had to be there, but it still had to be compatible with the main storyline in case you don't do that particular Social Link. It's not that I don't get it, I just didn't like the way it's presented.
      • I don't see what's wrong with it - Rise and Yukiko do examine why they're unhappy. They realize that what they were doing before wasn't the reason they were unhappy. Yea, Yukiko's been helping around the Inn since she was a kid, but there's a world of differences between working the reception desk and being directly responsible for the livelihoods of your family and friends. Rise may not have liked dealing with the paparazzi, but the problem was that she thought the "Risette" persona was a lie and tried to bury it when "Risette" was just as real as any other part of her. Part of her social link was finding out people like her devoted fan genuinely derived positive inspiration from her, and that was as genuine as working in a tofu shop. And she doesn't "handwave" it - she spends at least half the link reminding herself of the downsides as well. She just comes to the conclusion that the downsides weren't nearly as negative as she once thought. It's not an uncommon story in showbiz to take a long break and spend time outside of the camera lens, so it's not so strange that Rise would essentially go on sabbatical and then return to her career.
      • Concerning Yukiko, the idea that the real issue was her perceived inability to make choices for herself is actually supported by things said during the game. During her Shadow's pre-battle speech, one of it's gripes is "Everything's decided for me, from how I live to where I die." Also, in her Social Link, Yukiko says "I never objected to being the inn's manager per se, I just hated feeling like it wasn't up to me."
      • It's outright stated that Yukiko thought she had to do everything as a manager. Throughout the course of her social link, she realizes that she doesn't have to do it all, and in fact should rely on the others to handle things. This is a common issue with management in real life as well, making this a bit of Truth in Television. Just think of all the times you've had managers. The ones you tend to like best, at least professionally, are the ones who know to tell you what they want done, but leave it up to you in regards to how to do it. The ones that annoy you are the ones who try to tell you how to do your job.
      • Concerning Rise, her issue was that she thought that by becoming Risette she would find friends after living a gloomy and abused life. However, she played that persona too hard and too single-mindedly, and never felt like she was anything more than a poster girl that never showed her true personality. And this is the truth; she tried too hard to abandon her old self, and almost literally did nothing outside of appearances as Risette, something she mentions during her Social Link, and ended up despising it. I believe she even mentions during a holiday event (if you're Lovers) that she spent the previous year's events alone. At the beginning of her Social Link Rise is trying to distance herself from Risette and be herself, but realizes during her encounters with her manager that there were aspects of Risette that she did enjoy, ie acting, singing, and having a positive effect on people's lives. Not only that, but she finds out that her manager not only genuinely believed in her but cared about her as well, something she didn't believe as a byproduct of completely discarding the Risette persona and letting all the negative aspects of it colour her perception of the experience as a whole. She may have truly believed he was an overbearing guy when in all actuality he might have always cared and fought for Rise as a person. When she realizes that she does enjoy those things about Risette and effectively threw them away blindly out of contempt, she breaks down. It's a matter of not being able to see the forest through the trees. After that she comes to terms with what she had done wrong, and realizes that she did enjoy being Risette, then decides to return, but this time staying true to herself. She goes on to mention that all she was doing was discarding her single-faceted personas when she got tired or frustrated with them, and never stopped to realize that they're all her, but different aspects of her, and never the whole picture.

    The Protagonist's Amazing Phone Blindness 
  • On November 5th, after you see Nanako on the midnight channel, Protagonist is distressed because Dojima took away his cellphone, and therefore he can't call anyone to get help. Which makes sense, except for the fact that there's a phone sitting right on the table. Dojima even uses it a couple minutes later.
    • Quick, name your best friend's cell phone number without looking it up on the phone. I can't, personally - so I can see pretty easily that the Protagonist having his cell phone taken away means that he doesn't have their numbers.
      • Now, what about the number of your girlfriend(s)?
      • Troper with a boyfriend: Nope, can't remember.
    • It's in a police station, it could simply not support directly calling people.
    • Or there might be an override code you have to dial before you can call out, and Protagonist doesn't know it.
      • Likely what the above meant...
    • Even worse than that is Dojima dragging him into the station because he couldn't buy Protagonist's story about going into the TV when there's the TV right there in the living room he could have shoved his hand into as proof. And then another one at the station.
      • Since he didn't believe Protagonist in the first place, why would he even think to check?
      • Bit of Fridge Brilliance there: If the Protagonist proved what he said as truth to Dojima by showing him while Adachi was there watching, could he later have accused Adachi when he said "Namatame pushed 'em in", since Adachi would have a reason for knowing and believing in the murder method?

    Who was spreading the Midnight Channel rumour? 
  • The group seems unsure if Izanami was spreading the midnight channel rumor, or if it was just spread by someone who randomly found it. Fine, except that you can talk to her and she will sometimes suggest you try it.
    • I interpreted that as Izanami helping to spread the rumour, but she may or may not have been the originator of it. It just happened to suit her purposes.

    The size of the save files 
  • What exactly causes the save files to be over twice the size of FESes?
    • I think it's because if you colossally fuck up and cause someone to be killed by their Shadow because you didn't save them in time, the game rewinds a week. In order to do that, I'd imagine that the game would have to save the data for every single day or something along those lines.
      • As a result of that, the game likely had to record scripts for "game over" scenes for the deadlines. There are also several bad endings in the game, and there are scripts for several multiple answer questions including those that may lead to a bad ending.

    Gamers, Storytelling & Killing Off The Little Girl 
  • What's with the people who believe that the whole thing involving Nanako's death was a severe case of bad writing/storytelling? More specifically, the fact she wasn't killedOffForReal to give the Scooby Gang yet another thing to seek revenge for. Gamers everywhere claim that they had "respected" the game more if it had the galls to retire her permanently rather that what it actually pulled off. I know that Tropes Are Not Bad, but stuffing Nanako into the fridge for the plot's sake is all kinds of wrong.
    • The thing I don't like is that if you shove Namatame into the TV, she gets Killed Off for Real, but if you spare him she gets revived, and nobody explains how the one event has any effect on the other.
      • Her Arcana is the Justice Arcana, now if you had pushed him in...her bond with you breaks since what you did was unjust.
      • The way I saw it, what brought Nanako back was Teddie's concern for her. If you kill Namatame, you are in a way giving up on the mystery for revenge, banishing Teddie and dooming Nanako.
      • Except there is second worst ending. Where you believe Nametame is murderer but still stop Yousuke from killing him. This way, Nanako is still revived, but never leave hospital and Teddie is still gone.
    • My take on all this is that there are three ways the scene can play out. You can throw Namatame into the TV, which is basically abandoning justice in favor of vengance. This is an absolute breach of justice, which, as mentioned above, Nanako-chan is the Social Link of. If you leave Namatame's fate to the police, that's letting justice take its course, therefore, Nanako lives. But since that also means you stop looking for the real murderer, Nanako takes a long time to heal. It's only if you continue with the case and continue your search for the true murderer that everything turns out okay.

     The World is Japan 
  • The whole "the world" = "Japan" thing. Okay, I know it's a Japanese game made for the Japanese audience and it's all based in Japanese mythology, but I couldn't help snickering a bit at the Team looking at an idyllic Japanese virgin landscape in the TV at the end and saying "This is what's inside everyone's heart!", considering that the whole game is about a tiny, isolated town where almost the entire plot happened within walking distance, and the villain's been going on about what all of humanity wants. Is that to say that all of humanity has access to the Midnight Channel and Izanami just chose to operate in Inaba, or is humanity strictly limited to Japan? This is the kind of thing I think about when I have a bag of peanuts and Mountain Dew for dinner.
    • It's pretty obvious that it's the former. Izanami chose Inaba as her base of operation because it'd be easier for her to keep a track of all the events that take place in the game as well as seeing that everything go according to the plan in a small, rural place rather than a bigger city.
      • I suppose it's possible that when they say "everyone" they really do only mean Japan, but that makes the fact that all those Greek deities and stuff are there a little weird.
      • All the Greek deities and such appear as demons in every other MegaTen game, so if it's going by MegaTen standards, they're nowhere near as powerful as others in the pantheon. And they're all demons. It also would appear that Izanami really is just using Inaba as an excuse to kill everyone, so while it would really suck to be a guy in, say, San Antonio or Paris when Izanami blows up the planet because of a bunch of people in a rural town in Japan, is there really a requirement that gods play fair? Regarding the landscape, I didn't see much uniquely Japanese in there - it was mountains, a lake, and woods. You really can't tell the difference unless you strain yourself. Besides, the perspective would have been from a bunch of Japanese teens, so they're going to have a different frame of reference anyway, so if there was somehow a uniquely Japanese perspective, there's a plausible reason besides assuming everyone in the world wants to be Japanese at heart.
      • Yes they do.
      • To be fair, this isn't a Japanese specific trait. All forms of media will inevitably hold some sort of bias towards the country of their origin. Like how Hollywood movies will almost always show how America Won World War II or how America Saves the Day.
      • Inaba is the most average town in Japan, probably. Anyways, isn't the Megaten series full of Jerkass Gods? She's probably just being a jerk about everything.
      • Or, it could just be what's in everyone's hearts, in that exact place (remember that you can only enter certain areas in the TV world thorough certain TVs.) the TV world is an Empathic Environment, and since Inaba is a rural Japanese town it stands to reason that's what the people there think is perfect.
    • Since when are mountains and happy trees strictly Japanese?

    Teddie's Upgraded Persona and Its Amazing Ass Missile 
  • Why the hell does Teddie's upgraded Persona have a missile sticking out of its ass?
    • I've heard that it's named after a folk hero who carried a tomahawk and it's a tomahawk missle.
    • Only his first persona is based off the folk lore. Maybe it's supposed to look like a tail?
    • Teddies upgraded persona is named after an Ainu term for gods and divine spirits. The Ainu have a ceremony in which a bear cub (belived to be an incarnation of the god of bears, Kimun-Kamuy) is raised as a human for two years before being 'sent back to the spirit world' by killing it with arrows, Which sort of parallels Teddie's whole arc. The missile sticking out of Kamui heavily resembles a model called Arrow.

    Yellow Eyes on the Midnight Channel 
  • When you see people on their Midnight Channel 'TV show', why don't they have the yellow eyes of the Shadow? They're clearly the Shadow you meet in the dungeon, so why do they look like the regular character?
    • It could easily just be an illusion caused by the midnight channel. If people saw yellow eyes a dark haze and heard a demonic voice coming from their TV they might not want to tune in anymore.

    The Fog 
  • It takes the group till almost the end of the game to realize TV fog=real life fog. I assumed that from the first mention of "TV fog disappears, real fog appears" and that it just went unmentioned. I geuss everyone besides Teddie, Chie and Yosuke can be excused for not hearing the line, but damn it is hard to believe they took that long to realize it.
    • The TV Fog caused a lot of strange health problems, headaches and nausea, for the group without the glasses. It's not until the end of the game and the Real-Fog becomes "poisonous" does anyone have a reason to draw the two lines.

    What is Kunino-Sagiri? 
  • What is Kunino-Sagiri? He's not a persona. He doesn't show up to call out Namatame's inner darkness like the other human derived shadows. The animated cutscene has shadows bum rushing Namatame and fusing into Kunino-Sagiri. Ameno-Sagiri is a manifestation of Izanami. So what in the hell is Kunino-sagiri?
    • I thought he was another one of Izanami's Pawns.
    • Presumably, since Namatame is already a persona user his shadow cannot physically appear outside of his body. Ameno-Sagiri probably intervened by possessing Namatame, just like he did with Adachi.
      • Namatame was NEVER a Persona user. Izanami just gave him the powers to access the TV World. Assuming he was, he shouldn't have a Shadow. Nanako's dungeon and the hospital scene confirm that he has a Shadow, so it's just his nightmare form.
    • I assumed that Kunino-Sagiri was just Namatame's Shadow, but because of the power he recieved from Izanami it was strong enough to take him over completely rather than manifesting outside him (his mental state at the time probably didn't help). Presumably the same thing would have happened with Protagonist's Shadow; we just never got to see it because he was aware and accepting of his true self, so he just jumped straight to Persona. Probably the same for Adachi, although his eyes still went gold... maybe his 'true self' was so twisted that his Persona was more Shadow-like than others?
    • I always assumed it was just Namatame fusing with the shadows, in the same way Igor can help you fuse shadows together to make a more powerful one, just a lot messier. Their powers fusing to him, Namatame's frame warped and took on his self image, complete with.....gear head. It takes 12 shadows fused together to make the ultimate persona - Namatame fuses with at least 14.
    • Golden includes more discussion on Kunino-Sagiri, specifically in the bonus dungeon. Whenever he`s brought up, so is Ameno-Sagiri; they`re always referred to as `the two Sagiri`. I imagine Kunino has responsibilities and powers similar to those of Ameno.

    Rise and Naoto Shipping 
  • There seems to be a Rise X Naoto pairing fandom on the internet. While I find nothing wrong with it, I don't recall any Ho Yay between the two in game. Am I forgetting any?
    • There's a random NPC around that mentions she's seen them hanging together or walking back home together, not sure which. She still refers to Naoto as a boy, though (even after The Reveal), and maybe because of that she starts suspecting they are a couple. Though really, there's hardly much in-game material like to assume something between them. With Chie and Yukiko, there's been enough like to take the fact that they are gonna end up together as Fanon! But with Rise and Naoto, it seems mostly just made up.
    • Perhaps it has something to do with the original Japanese voice actresses for both characters being quite good friends. And fans can avoid creepy real-person fanfiction this way.
      • Same reason for any pairing not grounded in chemistry or canon. Its hot.
      • Exact same logic that makes Chie and Yukiko such good candidates for the game's "Yuri Couple". Rise is extremely feminine, Naoto is extremely masculine. That's it. While there isn't nearly as much subtext as between Chie and Yukiko("Chie is a strong prince!". Come on. That's not even subtext anymore), there * could be* . And that's more then enough for the fanfic writers.
    • From how I've seen it explained elsewhere - it's mostly because of how Rise and Naoto compliment each other. It's the whole [1] thing. It has a much bigger following in Japan because of this trope. And also, the Japanese can just pair anyone with anyone, hinting or no. Not that I'm complaining.
    • It apparently originates from the fact that Rise helps Naoto out in the manga Persona x Detective Naoto.

  • What does "mugatsu" mean?
    • "untranslated japanese word".
    • I've heard it's supposed to mean something to the effect of "corrupted".
    • Mugatsu refers to the 'new moon' phase when the moon isn't even visible. The game said 'Magatsu' which most likely means 'demonic moon' or 'demonic month'.
    • I read that it's taken from magatsuhi-no-kami, which is just the catch-all Japanese phrase for a god or spirit from the netherworld who exists to bring about sin, pollution, and disaster. If the way they use it in the game is to imply that Adachi's version of Izanagi is one of these, then 'corrupted' would indeed be a pretty accurate translation.
    • In Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne, the "Maga" in "Magatama" can be translated as "twisted." Maybe it's a variant of that.
    • It means "filth-tarnished". it refers to a time before the god Izanagi "washed away the filth" after failing to retrieve Izanami from the underworld.

    Naoto and Invisible Ink 
  • I believe it's during the fifth Fortune Social Link scene that Naoto misses the whole "invisible ink" trick. I mean, come freaking on, even Nanako, an eight years old(ish) girl, got it immediately! It's something we all learn in chemistry class in fourth grade... Is she really an ace detective?
    • I think that's supposed to be the point. Invisible ink is such a childish trick that it never occurred to her anyone would actually try to use it. She's been dealing with real cases for so long that she just can't wrap her mind around the thought that anything she's investigating could be so simplistic. And of course her grandpa knew this; think of it as the evidence equivalent of hiding in plain sight.

    Is "Silverette" even a word? 
  • Is "Silverette" even a word? It just bugs me how weird it sounds when it's used in Fan Fics to refer to Protagonist.
    • No, it isn't. There is a clear etymology, however, stemming from the word "brunette". As a pun, it is quite common to refer to people with blue hair as being "bluenette". Even though the "ette" suffix only makes sense with blue due to pun reasons, it's the only existing suffix for fictional hair colors, so people carry it over to non-pun colors.

    Threatening "someone close to you" 
  • What's the deal with how Adachi threatens to hurt someone close to Protagonist, even though he has only been letting Namatame do all the dirty work? The threat is only carried out because Nanako appeared on the midnight channel, which was because her quotation was mentioned on the news, and it's highly unlikely Adachi had anything to do with that happening. Was it just a coincidence, and he just decided to go with it and make Protagonist think it was a deliberate act against him? That explanation makes sense, but if it is what happened, why the hell didn't he mention it during the exposition dump where he explains in detail everything ELSE he did?
    • It's a very small town. The local news papers would be dieing for anything, especially a quote with a famous politician.
    • Adachi likes the 'game' as it's been proceeding so far, even though he hasn't had to intervene beyond his initial actions of throwing Saki and Mayumi Yamano in, and telling Namatame to 'save people himself'. He knows that the kids have been saving people each time Namatame puts someone in, but it must have been getting a little bit stale. Letting someone else die would have spiced things up a little bit more. So it's just a coincidence - he could see the Midnight Channel, just like the team, and he knows Namatame will kidnap Nanako. He just decided to tilt the odds in his favour so he could have more fun.

    Teddie's Bearsonal Quotes 
  • Is it just me, or does Teddy yell "Bear-sona!" when he attacks?
    • Yes.
    • Well, it would certainly not be out of character for him. I just thought, you know... That maybe sometimes he is more serious then that. I mean, besides when he is contemplating suicide.

    Happy birthday, Protagonist 
  • A whole year passes over the protagonist in Inaba. Does not the protagonist have a birthday? Does not any of his friends? I mean, I guess Teddy does not technically have one, and Naoto would probably find some way to not get to hers(that would be such a childish thing to do!), but other then that I kind of wondered about that strange lack. Shu, from the Tower social link, has one.
    • Maybe the protagonist's birthday is in late march? The game only covers a period of 11 months...
    • Well, technically, the protagonist is supposed to be you, so I guess you can say that his birthday is your birthday. As for his friends, they do indeed have birthdays, but they just don't celebrate them for whatever reason. Heck, by the time we meet Naoto, her birthday has already passed.
      • Actually, the only birthdays that happen durring the time period that any characters are in the party are Yosuke's, Chie's, and Yukiko's. Funnily enough, Yukiko's is actually December 8th, which is, I think, the very day they find Adachi in the TV world so it's not really the best time for a birthday bash. As for Chie's(July 30th) and Yosuke's(June 22nd), they happen while they're still investigating everything with most of their attention. Rise's(June 1st) happens before she even comes to Inaba much like Naoto's(April 27th), and Kanji's occurs on January 19th, which isn't even a playable day.
      • Golden, for the record, made it playable.
  • I don't know if me and my friends were just weird, but when we were in high school birthday celebrations were usually nothing more than a "happy birthday" and maybe a small present. Maybe they are celebrating it, it's just off screen.
  • Don't forget, in the original game you never played anything between Dec 26 and Mar 21, or Mar 24 and Apr 21. Your birthday could be on any of these days (at least, in the original; Golden adds a couple of months more playtime that messes things up) and it would never come up.
  • To be fair, according to a quick google search and a certain troper's minor background knowledge of Japan, Japanese birthdays are not as big a celebration as they are in the West. In fact, there was supposedly no custom of celebrating birthdays in Japan until approximately 1950.

    The coast is clear, I'm assuming 
  • Okay, so they go into the TV at Junes once no one is watching. How do they know no one's watching when they come out?
    • Yosuke mentioned early on in the game that there rarely is anyone at the electronics department, both associates and customers alike.
    • Early on, when they first try to actually contact Teddie, his voice can be heard from the other side. I imagine they`d be able to hear any nearby voices coming from the electronics department.

    The Protagonist's inconsistent upper-body strength 
  • I know the real answer to this is Gameplay and Story Segregation, can the Protagonist can run around swinging greatswords at monsters all night long, while reeling in five fish will tucker him out for the rest of the day?
    • Those are some tough fish.
    • This is more Integration than Segregation. It takes Diligence to fish. Therefore it isn't about how strong you are at reeling in those "tough" fish, it's about how patient you are about fishing which can take a long time to get any catches in real life .
    • The TV World enhances the characters' physical abilities. When there, their limits are basically what they feel them to be. That's part of why they can shrug off hits from giant monsters and attack hard enough to kill demigods with a pair of fish. It's why they are superpowered even without summoning their Personas there, but still human in the real world. In the TV World, Chie can kick a tank into orbit, but some random unarmed high school thugs are a legitimate threat to her in the real world. P5 was more blatant about this process happening, but it still applies to all the other games as they all battle in either full on mental worlds or places where a mental world overlaps with the physical.

    Naoto and the Kings' Game 
  • Why can't you drag Naoto into the Kings Game?
    • She isn't your friend yet. Also keep in mind that Protagonist though she's guy at that point. Why would you need one more guy in Kings Game?
    • Well, yes, but isn't she everyone who's there technically forced into the game, including Naoto? I wouldn't think a drunk Rise was particularly choosy with who she added to the 'game'.
    • Presumably Naoto just got lucky that no one called out her numbers.
    • Actually, the numbers you can call in game result in a scene with Rise, Chie, Yukiko, or Yosuke(who are, respectively, number 1, 2, 3, and 4). This means Naoto had the number 5 stick - The game just didn't give you the option to pick number five because it is impossible to not have a Social Link with those four party members(All of them are started via plot events; Yosuke's and Chie's both start the day after each get their Personae, Yukiko's starts during the rescue of Kanji, and Rise's starts shortly after she joins the team) while it is also impossible to have Social Linked Naoto at all before that point.

    Lack of Evidence for a conviction 
  • So the Killer has been caught and he is going to jail for a very long time!...only there's no evidence to convict him aside from a secondhand confession. All the murders were untraceable (Naoto says as much when discussing Misato's attack), and performed with magic. No criminal system would convict unless the Killer confessed again in front of the police, which he has really no reason to do. Hell, he would have a hard time getting them to believe him unless he revealed the TV World, which opens up a whole other can of worms, and even then there'd have to be proof that he did throw someone into the television, and that doing that ended up in a murder. In short: How the hell do they get a conviction? It's the perfect crime, even after he's caught.
    • You get a letter saying he's going to confess.
      • He basically lies and tells them a confession that gets him convicted. Since you beat him fair and square he decided to be a good sport about it.
    • He confesses to the murders but lies and says he actually hung the bodies up so as to remove the unbelievable parts. Plus, he can prove he was the last one to see both victims alive and he can probably prove how he destroyed police evidence (which Naoto mentions he likely did)
    • Golden`s bonus epilogue says that he knew a lot of things "only the real killer would know".
    • In Persona 4: Arena Ultimax the killer has their own campaign which reveals that they did in fact confess to two murders using information that only the murderer could have known, but because they can't explain the whole TV World side of things months later they're still being questioned by police who aren't 100% buying his story, and it's only many months after the events of P 4 AU (possibly even passed the epilogue for Golden) that his trial date is set.

    Why doesn't Naoto tail the Investigation Team? 
  • This is less an IJBM, and more a "Why didn't I think of that sooner": Why didn't Naoto just follow the Inaba Scoobies indiscreetly if she wanted to find out their secret? They're not the sharpest bunch (Sans Protagonist). She might have pulled it off.
    • She was trying to find the criminal, too. And seeing as every person after Saki Konishi was rescued and joined Inaba Scoobies, Naoto figured that she might find the killer and see what the Scoobies are up to at the same time. Two birds with one stone.
    • Naoto was following them; remember how she knew where to find them at Junes? But she did so from afar because, in a town as small as Inaba, someone would have noticed if she had been too obvious about it. So she likely never followed too close whenever they went into Junes, because they could easily spot her there (remember, they had already met Naoto before) and she didn't want to risk spooking them.

    Inaba's lax weapons laws 
  • Why is the guy at the weapon shop selling swords and crossbows to minors in bulk? He doesn't know what they're using them for, not to mention all the talk about gangs going around.
    • One, he thinks of himself as an artist, not a blacksmith. Second, they're his only customers, so he can't really complain.
      • Third, he doesn't sell crossbow. You must mistaken him with someone else...
      • Fourth, he is filthy rich, seeing as he can buy all the crap you bring to him at prices that, while he decided himself, are pretty high. Fifth, and probably most importantly, if the Investigation Team were using those weapons for violence (in the real world), they would probably be caught by the police, or, if they weren't, at least the reporters would make an special on the wave of crimes in which unconventional weapons were used. Since nothing of the sort comes up on the news, for all old man Daidara know, the Protagonist is hanging all those swords in his bedroom, and as an artist, Daidara would have no qualms selling to a collector.
    • Sixth, related to fifth, is that maybe Daidara actually knew a bit of what the Investigation Team were up to, similar to Detective Kurosawa in Persona 3. Don't forget, he at one point gave the Team the encouragement in fighting against evil near the end of the game. Which means, he at least knew that he could trust the Team to use the weapons responsibly.
    • The thing that perplexes me is that the shop isn't even an underground shop, it's literally a main store in the shopping district. Forget about why the guy's selling stuff, how the shop is even able to exist is the better question. Japan has strict laws against civilians owning swords, as well as carrying, and waving around swords in any kind of public place. In light of such a thing, a store that sells swords in the middle of a public shopping district in a Japanese rural town seems full on parody level. This actually caused trouble for me the first time I played the game, because I had assumed, since by my own perspective I have my head screwed on right, that the weapon shop was hidden away somewhere, since it's, you know, a highly illegal shop doing highly illegal things. So when I went to find it again, I was wandering all over the place like an idiot. It's made even worse too by the fact that Yosuke asks Chie how she knows about the weapon shop when she first takes them there. As though it's a highly secretive place that he didn't know existed. You'd think that a weapon shop opening in the middle of the shopping district would be something anyone would know about, least of all Yosuke.

    Mystery Food X 
  • When Chie and Yukiko are getting the ingredients for Mystery Food X for the first time, why doesn't Protagonist say anything? He knows just how awful Yukiko is at cooking.
    • He's a Silent Protagonist.
      • Easy enough to get around
      [Say Nothing]
      > What the *** do you think you are going to make with that?!
      [You wanted to say that, but your Knowledge wasn't high enough.]
      [You wanted to say that, but your courage wasn't high enough.]

    Crossdressing Pageants at the Inaba School for Homophobes 
  • Why the hell do you organize a crossdressing pageant in your high school for "the fun of it", when all the students are clearly homophobic and think the participants are freaky as hell for even considering entering?
    • For the lulz.
    • Definitely for the lulz, especially considering that participants aren't allowed to back out even if signed up without their consent/knowledge.
    • Schools have a tendency to have activities that a majority of the students have no desire to do. It's not really all that uncommon.

    Teddie's sudden growth 
  • Alright, I love Teddie and everything, but this needed to be asked eventually. How in the world did he grow a human body inside himself? And how did he do it by doing nothing but sit-ups?
    • Check the WMG page. It may have something with Teddie's origins. mainly him being an amnesiac Lucifer makes the most sense oddly
      • Alternatively, looking for an explanation exclusively within Persona 4, the characters figure that Teddie is just a shadow who developed an ego and thus a persona and a human form, as opposed to a human who manifested a shadow and then controlled it with their ego. Hence why Shadow Teddie isn't a evilized version of Teddie's persona like everyone else's but just a giant evil version of his default form.

    The world doesn't care about the first two victims 
  • OK, so you're given a few weeks to save your own party members (or Mitsuo and Nanako) or else you "suddenly feel dizzy," with whatever gruesome implications this has for the main character. But when Mayumi Yamane and Saki Konishi are killed, presumably by their own Shadows, the world doesn't end and the protagonist suffers no penalty, even though he already had the power of Persona and could have conceivably saved them. One could say that a higher power won't let you proceed without those people you'll need as friends and sends you back, or that the game ends at that point because it would have been impossible to win without them anyway, but why are Mitsuo and Nanako any different from the first two victims? And why isn't there a similar "blacking out/end of the world" event in the second half of December if you choose to throw Namatame into the TV for his Shadow to kill? (For that matter, why are the first two killed almost immediately, but the rest take a few weeks?)
    • Though he already has persona during first two, it isn't fully awakened. You can't even make detail out of Izanagi during hopeless fight. Plus, Protagonist doesn't know about persona at that point, so he doesn't really fail to save Mayumi and Saki. Now I'm not sure about Mitsuo, but Nanako's death does cause sudden dizziness, to the player.
      • I always assumed he felt dizzy as in 'feeling sick after realizing he blew up the chance to save someone', not that he was actually feeling anything physical. Like if you accidentally kill a kitten, you may vomit.
      • The most likely reason why the protagonist feels dizzy after he fails to save someone is that it is the effect he feels of being suddenly summoned into the Velvet Room by Igor. Remember, after you fail to rescue someone, Igor suddenly calls you in and tells you that the mystery has deepened and the fog has thickened, and now it's too dangerous to continue moving forward. He then gives you the choice to terminate your journey or "retrace your steps" (in other words, return to a week ago). Mayumi Yamano and Saki Konishi's deaths are meant to be part of the plot, and they were meant to die. Saki's death was Yosuke's motivation to investigate the other world, and the two murders were the reason the Investigation Team formed in the first place. Most likely, Igor also likely had foreseen that the two murders were central to the "catastrophe" the protagonist will face in his year in Inaba. Any subsequent deaths would inhibit the protagonist's journey through the "fog" to reach out to the truth, as if anyone else is dead, the death will also frustrate any further attempt to investigate the murder case due to the lack of leads. This means the truth is now forever lost in the fog, especially since the game is all about fighting through the fog of lies to reach out to the truth.
    • His dizzy feeling isn't due to some omniscient shadow senses. It's guilt and a sense of failure in the back of his mind. The first two murders have no impact on the protagonist for two reasons 1) he didn't know either of the two women in any meaningful way at the time and, more importantly, 2) he didn't know anything about the TV World then. He feels no responsibility for either's death because, with his knowledge at the time, there was nothing he could have done to prevent either. For all the others afterwards, that changes. Now he knows what was happening and has the power to prevent it. He outright promised to do just that and even had warning weeks in advance for each one. If you screw up and let the deadline come, Yu realizes, on some level, that he has failed and someone he knows has been killed because of it. Igor intervenes at that point mostly as a gameplay mechanic, but can be justified as him "cheating" a little to ensure that his guest's journey, while difficult, is never left as completely impossible.

    If the Protagonist dies, everyone dies 
  • Why is it an automatic game over if the Protagonist is killed in battle? It made sense in Persona 3 because there it literally would start the end of the world but in Persona 4 it should be possible for the others to revive you with a Revival Bead with no ill effects.
    • I think its been stated above, but remember, the whole game until right near the end is a Test of humanity's spirit, as represented by Adachi on one side, and Protagonist on the other. If protagonist dies and Adachi is still alive- even for a moment- it means that the side of humanity Protagonist represents loses, and Izanami goes ahead with her "spread the Fog throughout the world of humans and turn all into shadows" plan.

    The Investigation Team, Mitsuo, and being slow on the uptake 
  • Why does it take so long for the team to realize that Mitsuo wasn't involved in the earlier murders. His own text during the dungeon crawl and his actions in general directly contradict points about the case that the team knows are true.
    • One, the Inaba Scoobies aren't the best detectives. Two, just like the police, they're desperate to bring an end to the case and aren't thinking straight. Three, they don't "know" anything to be true. They're just making theories that make sense at the time. Four, the very same text that contradicts those points prove that Mitsuo isn't right in the head, meaning you can't rely on any of it for the truth.
    • Not to mention that in terms of clues needed to help the case, a clearly depicted human in the T.V. would be a very hard to ignore clue. Doubly so if the dickhead was taunting you. Granted, there is still inductive reasoning, but it wasn't like until we raided the void quest dungeon that we had no reason to NOT suspect him. He had the body strength to lift the women into the T.V. However, Kanji would've knocked his punk ass out before he even breathed, so that ruled it out.
    • Mitsuo did appear on the TV to taunt them. That was enough for them to assume that he really was the killer because that could only happen if someone who had the power to use the TV World besides them was involved. They hadn't figured out several important details, and, importantly, Mitsuo really did kill one person and cliamed credit for the other murders. Sure, They did notice some irregularities, but it would be easy to assume the nagging doubt they felt was it was a case of reality not matching their idea of what bringing in the killer would feel like. The long stretch of time without any incidents after that would only cement their idea that it was all over. For all their intentions, none of the current squad know anything about actual detective work and only have their own experiences to work from as evidence. Bottom line, they just got complacent when an easy answer presented itself.

    Gas Station Attendant Gender Pronoun Confusion 
  • Why does everyone refer to the gas station attendant as a "he" when she's clearly female?
    • Clearly? We can't even see her face.
      • You can in the true ending. And also hear her distinctly female voice.
    • The same reason everyone refers to Naoto as a "he": she looks and sounds the part.
    • Plus, in the Japanese version of the game, she actually had a male voice up until the reveal.
      • In both versions the gas station attendant has a male voice actor until they reveal themselves to be Izanami. Even then, they still have a rather gender-neutral voice and appearance, basically looking like the Protagonist's female clone.

    If only there was a TV in this exact room, I could prove it to you 
  • Okay, we're trying to convince Dojima that there's a world in the TV, and you can go into it. There's a TV over there in the corner. You're not in any way restricted to the chair. WALK OVER AND STICK YOUR HAND IN IT. Beyond that, the Midnight Channel comes on later that night! Knock on the door, call over a police officer and have them sit and watch TV for a bit! DO SOMETHING.
    • The last one is unlikely to work. People only see Midnight Channel if they believe, or curious, in it. If someone already has doubt (ie Ryotaro Dojima) he will just see blank screen.
      • I don't recall it ever being said that only people who have some interest in the Midnight Channel are able to see it and regardless there's nothing stopping the protagonist from putting his hand in the television. The best explanation is that it was just a goof on the part of the writers when they were trying to figure out how to get Nanako kidnapped.
      • They said it in during the confrontation with Izanami that they saw the Midnight Channel because they want to see it and what they saw were according to their role (Nametame being a savior and saw clear images of the victim while the team only has clear image after they were kidnapped because they are rescuers). Thus, it is most likely that someone already has doubt about it (don't want to see anything) will see nothing. Of cause, I have no defend on "stick his hand in TV" part.
      • Yeah, the Protagonist could've at least tried, and if the Muggles saw nothing then we'd know that they would've seen nothing. Unless Dojima really is paralyzingly scary when he wants to be, and it takes all your courage just to choke out to Nanako that it'll be fine talk.
  • When Dojima is grilling Protagonist, why can't he just stick his hand in the TV? Wouldn't that be kind of conclusive?
    • Sorry, that would make too much sense.
    • I saw a fanfic exploring what might have happened if Yu did just stick his hand in. Basically, Dojima drags Protagonist to the police station anyways, both to test it out on a different TV and to get more information, and while Protagonist demonstrates again Adachi shoves Protagonist into the TV. Aside from that, in the beginning of the game Protagonist tried sticking his hand into the TV and almost got fully sucked in.
      • Link please, this sounds cool.
    • It took me a while to think through, considering this seemed to be the biggest plot hole in the game, but I eventually realized that putting his hand into the TV would have been the dumbest thing the protagonist could do. Earlier on, Naoto said that it would be unwise to inform Dojima of their adventures, considering the fact that if they told the police the truth, a police investigation would get in the way of the team saving people. If the protagonist put his hand into the TV at his house, or while he was at the police station, he would have provided the police with indisputable evidence that the police would have to investigate, thus surrounding the team with red tape, and possibly putting the protagonist under investigation for the murders. By just saying the truth about the TV to Dojima, the protagonist could try to get Dojima to believe him, without providing any concrete evidence to the police of what the team was doing. By hearing what the protagonist had to say (what with them going into the TV and all), the police would probably just think that the protagonist is nuts. Furthermore, even though the team had to go into the TV to save the victim, the protagonist would only be delayed at most a few days if he chose not to stick his hand into the TV, since the police could not detain him indefinitely. Such would not be the case, if the protagonist stuck his hand into the TV, as the police would launch a full investigation. Also, remember, that the only "evidence" that connected the protagonist to the case that the police had already closed was a letter (accusing him of rescuing people, not killing people) and Dojima's intuition, which can't be taken as evidence. Since the case was closed, the police would have likely taken the letter as a prank, thought that the protagonist was crazy but harmless, and released him. Again, such would not be the case if the protagonist put his hand into the TV.
    • It would have been a moot point anyways. Remember, The Protagonist had just received a threat in the mail. Even if Dojima had believed the whole bit about TV's and Personas, His Nephew had just been implicated in a murder case, and the killer was potentially gunning for him as well. Dojima wasn't about to let the protagonist out of protective custody with that hanging in the air
  • You have to think about what that'd look like from Dojima's perspective. Think, if your teenage nephew got some freaky letter and then tried to explain it with: "Hey, Uncle, there's a world inside of the TV, and that's where the murderer/kidnapper has been sending people. Me and my friends have also been there and we fight these things called Shadows with our personas. Come with me and I'll show you," it's understandable that Dojima would think he was either lying, crazy or maybe even on drugs and wouldn't even entertain the idea he was telling the truth, therefore not even letting him show him the TV thing.

    She'll Be Fine, Let's Go Shopping! 
  • This is a Gameplay and Story Segregation thing, but you have the ability to leave Nanako in the telly for a good while. With a madman. I just couldn't wrap my head around it, because the idea of leaving my young cousin with a murder and kidnapper while I was out shopping with my friends just didn't gel (I saved her in one go). I guess you can say that for all of the missing, but that one really stuck out.
    • Protagonist can compartmentalize.
    • Don't forget the group didn't realize that Namatame was also in the TV at first, they thought he had escaped somewhere else.

    Chie and Yukiko Shipping 
  • So, during Yukiko's castle, there are tones of something between Chie and Yukiko. I know, Romantic Two-Girl Friendship, but still. Chie's other self getting all up about how awesome it is Yukiko thinks herself lower then Chie, and how Yukiko is really attractive, Yukiko going on about how nice it is Chie said red looks good on her (and she now wears red, pretty much constantly) then Chie getting called Yukiko's prince, and then... nothing. They're friends, but it's never brought up again. I also get that they are now romantic options, doesn't make it better. And that's not getting into Chie's shadow having lots of girls in uniforms lift her up...
    • Chie was jealous that Yukiko was good-looking, and so she got a charge out of the fact that Yukiko felt like she needed Chie to hold up her "worthless existence". She wasn't ogling over her attractiveness, nor was she acting sexually dominating. It's true that Yukiko calls Chie her "prince", and that's probably the closest things get becoming borderline subtext, but it's hardly enough on it's own. And someone with a whip being lifted up by people isn't innately sexual imagery, you realize. It's supposed to be representative of two things: both Chie's hidden side (that she's a, to quote the shadow itself, "grubby bitch" who uses her friendship with a "worthless" yet good-looking girl as a way to support her own self-worth), and also how she views Yukiko (who's the good-looking friend, who's going to forever dominate over her and make her feel worthless). To be entirely honest, the fact that people even try and sexualize/romanticize the issues that exist within Chie and Yukiko's friendship is pretty disgusting. I'm all for dom/sub stuff when it's healthy and isn't insanely toxic, but this would be toxic, by quite a country mile.
    • Since when as toxicity of a relationship ever put a stop to shippers? Just look at how commonly they pair up the main heroes with the villains of their series after they tried to kill each other every other week. Shippers don't think of the characters as they are or really how they would function together in any objective sense. They just have the hots for a pairing and happily edit the details in their minds to make it work in their perspective.

    Chie's Shadow Self 
  • When I think of Chie's shadow I see a Yukiko-like figure being supported by three Chies. Does this mean that Chie thinks that despite her belief on her being the dominatrix in her relationship with Yukiko she REALLY thinks that Yukiko is dominating her?
    • It's the other way around. Chie's Persona has a similar "banana-head" headdress as the Shadow (and her first persona even shares the distinctive coloration.) She's envious of Yukiko, hence her long and shiny black hair, but at the same time she uses Yukiko's insecurities to boost her own self-esteem ("Oh, Yukiko is the school's dream girl, but I know I'm better than her!") Hence the schoolgirls propping the main figure up over their heads.
      • Plus, the hood makes her faceless - exactly how she feels without Yukiko.

    Restrictions on where you can use your Persona 
  • I'm rather interested why the characters in SMT:Persona and Persona 2(IS and EP) can use their Personae anytime they want in their cities, but the chars of Persona 3 and Persona 4 have to go to a specific location (Thartarus, Abyss of Time, Midnight Channel) and/or at a specific time (dark hour). Is there a special reason for that? And before you say: "Maybe they didn't want to use their Personae outside of Tartarus/Midnight Channel" In Persona 4 Rise clearly wanted to use her persona at the field trip (she was drunk though).
    • The worlds of Persona/Persona 2 and Persona 3/Persona 4 are very different. For the first set you're using actual demons, not just the mystical personifications of your teenage issues and in the second set it isn't even clear whether or not a regular Persona (with the exception of the ones going berserk) can actually manifest itself in the regular world.
      • That isn't true, regarding that the casts of Persona and Persona 2 are using actual demons. Rather, they really are manifestations of their psyche, just like in Persona 3 and Persona 4; Philemon outright says that their Personas are just one of many masks they wear in their daily lives. Its also supported by the heavily personalized appearance of each characters' starting Persona (Vulcanus' is meant to evoke Tatsuya's lighter, or Eros, Lisa's Persona, is depicted as female rather than male) The only differences are that everyone could take on multiple Personas with varying levels of compatibility due to Philemon personally awakening their powers, rather than in the later games where characters other than the MC either had to awaken their poser themselves by confronting their Shadow or be lucky enough to have the power already.
Persona 4 Arena confirms that Personas can be used in the real world just like in previous games, it just requires a great deal of concentration (or an evoker), which Fuuka demonstrates.
  • Actually Persona 3 mentions the Persona-Users from the last games. The Kirijo-Group has been split from the Nanjo-group and I guess someone from the old Cast had ideas for a certain MMORPG. Besides, didnt Trish have a own TV-Show?
  • Ever considered that in P1 and P2, their entire city became under the domain of their respective eldritch horror?
  • Persona 3 does show Personas being used (or active) outside of the Dark Hour, when Chidori is attacked by her own Persona. As for why it didn't work for Rise, she may not have actually been trying to summon her Persona, just talking about it. Or she may not have been in the right frame of mind to do so, as you pointed out. They ARE physical/magical manifestations of the user's inner self, after all.
  • It is mentioned that Personas are the masks the character's wear to confront supernatural danger. In Persona 3 and 4's world, it may very well be possible to summon Personas in the "real word", but only when confronted by the supernatural. We just never see supernatural danger arise in normal settings/time. So Rise couln't use her Persona to scan during a kidnapping, but if, say a Shadow had taken Nanako, she might have been able to track it. Whether enemy Persona-users count as supernatural danger in and of themselves is another issue...

    Playable Mitsuo 
  • Why didn't they make Mitsuo a PC? Is it because that Loners Are Freaks?
    • First, he is a murderer, arrested and is in jail. Second, he never accepted his shadow and thus doesn't gain a persona.
      • I take the murderer-point, but still: Why did his shadow disappear, if he did not accept it? Shouldn't it be growing stronger and attack the party once more? At least that's what Teddie meant, before Yosuke accepted his Persona. (It would be rather cool if Mitsuo used his Persona to attack the heroes)
      • Keep in mind that shadow is really just part of your mind. When Teddie said that it will become stronger, he wasn't give specify period. But comparing to real life, when your "bad side" get on surface, it will be hidden for a while if you refuse to accept that you have problem. That is, the defeated shadow may gone for now, but should Mitsuo get back in Midnight Channel again, it will emerge again, stronger than before.
      • Now for Yosuke and other, despite being somewhat relucant, they known that they have problem. Turning shadow into persona in real life would be when you realize that you have problem, then working to overcome it (remember that each of party's S-Link is about them try to improve themselves?). Remember how Izanami mention that Adachi's persona got revert into shadow? That's what happen when you just accept your darkside without even try to overcome it.
    • Mitsuo isn't the kind of person capable of being honest with himself or caring enough about others to want to change. He isn't going to join their friend group because he can't accept his own weakness and dives deeper into his delusions when he had the perfect chance to change. Even if he did, the fact remains that he did murder an, obnoxious or no, innocent man in cold blood for an utterly inane reason without any supernatural influence required. The Investigation Team isn't going to just let that slide.

    Izanami's Power Level 
  • Is Izanami as powerful as Philemon and Nyarlothep? Since she was able to give Protagonist (the MC of P4), Namatame and Adachi the ability of Persona just like them. On the other hand she was easily defated unlike the other two (Philemon even has Elizabeth/Theo in P3 and Margarete in P4, which are way harder then Izanami no Okami...
    • Don't think so. As many has debated (and agreed) in the past, she's practically in rock bottom in terms of sheer power compared to other gods(-like being). Phil and Nyarly represent both half of the consciousness. Nyx (and by extension, Erebus and Nyx Avatar) represents Death. As stated before, you can't fully kill 'consciousness' and 'Death'. Izanami is...just a dead goddess that doesn't represent 'anything' of humanity. Her 'contribution' to the universe is just basically making the TV World, and going to the real myth (which Shin Megami Tensei takes much attention upon), ruler of the Underworld.
      • None of which have anything to do with power. What a god represents is not as important as its actual role. Considering that Izanami is both a creation deity and a death deity, there is plenty of room for her to be interpreted as a significant threat. How does one quantify "power" in this context anyway? How, on such a scale, does a creation god turned death god who actively kills 1000 people daily be "rock bottom" on such a scale?

    Can't Put Your Finger(print) on It 
  • Why is it that you can never bring up the fact that Mitsuou's fingerprints were found on the clothing of the victims when you're trying to figure out the identity of the killer at the end of the game? Shouldn't this be a major point that a supposedly competent detective like Naoto should jump on immediately? At the very least it's suggesting that a police probably planted evidence.
    • Because it was only found on King Moron's clothing and not on any of the other victims, which is confirmed when the police mention that they can't tie Mitsuou to the first two victims.
      • Contrary to what Adachi says, it's actually unbelievably hard to lift fingerprints from clothing, because clothing is absorbent and the prints had been there all night - the best fingerprints are fresh and on smooth, non-absorbent material like metal or glass. It would have been easier to find skin flakes.

    Clearly The Small, Weak Girl Did It 
  • How on Earth is Yukiko considered suspicious for even a second at the start of the game? Are the police really too stupid to realize that there is no way she could have possibly have had the time or physical strength to arrange the victims like that?
    • Interestingly enough, the protagonist himself is also suspected (by Dojima no less), and he IS and ISN'T the perfect suspect. He IS because he knows things only the murderer would possibly know (Dojima suspects this from day one and Protagonist knows this), and the only survivors of the murders wound up hanging out with Protagonist so Dojima's suspicions are not entirely without merit. Unfortunately, Protagonist as a suspect falls apart in an even more simple manner than Yukiko due to one fact: Your presence was known to Dojima every single time a victim disappeared. Shit, he knows exactly what you were doing and where (in your room, asleep), so the even better question is why the hell didn't this man do what most cops do, compare the times the victims disappeared to Protagonist's alibi. Any cursory check would have immediately disqualified the Protagonist from being accused of murder, thought given how you know what the murderer knows, he'd still be justified in being suspicious.
      • Dojima actually fails logic at several different times. At one point roughly at the middle of the game he accuses Protagonist of always being nearby when something bad happens when, as far as Dojima is aware, Protagonist was only around the scene of the first murder and that was purely accidental.
      • It's not always when something bad happens. He did find out that his nephew somehow learned that Rise could be kidnapped next and warned her before he could.
      • Dojima suspected that Protagonist had some sort of involvement in the case, but didn't nessesarally think that he was the killer. He was worried that his nephew could either get hurt, or be in serious legal trouble if he somehow got implicated in the case.
      • In response to suspecting Yukiko. They died by "unknown cause", most people suspect poisoning.
      • Even if they suspected Yukiko of poisoning the murder victims, there would still be the question of how a teenage girl could drag a corpse roughly the same size as her up a telephone pole (without someone noticing, at that
      • Mitsuo doesn't fare any better in the strength and physical skills department and that didn't stop them from suspecting him for killing the same people either. She could have used an accomplice to help her with the pole part and she's not just some random, average teenager girl either. Add that to her having a motive in regards to Yamano's stay, and sudden disappearance, it's not too far-fetched from the police's perspective that she might have, at least, been involved—the actual killer, when found out, had even less pointing towards them. But remember, the only actual source we have on the police suspecting Yukiko is Adachi and he's the guy who spent the entire game misleading you, though admittedly I don't know how if he'd have any reason to do so at the time. It's possible she was only someone they vaguely considered and Adachi was exaggerating and intentionally making it sound as if she's their current number one suspect.
      • I think it's not just possible, but downright likely, that Adachi was just lying for fun. Of course, he thought Yukiko would turn up on an antennae within a week, so nobody would believe she was the murderer. But that still leaves lots of time for her little school friends to wonder if there was something they didn't see, and even after her death there would be so many unanswered questions about why she was targeted, so it would always be plausible that she was involved in the first murders somehow. Imagine if her friends and family not only had to cope with her dying, but also had to wonder whether or not she was ever the girl they thought she was, and whether they ever really knew her at all, or if she got in over her head and they were too blind to see she needed help.
    • Fridge Horror: Who was talking about Yukiko being suspicious? The police, and, in particular, Adachi. We later learn that he'd already used repeated questioning as a method of stalking and attempting to sexually assault a high-school girl. Since Yukiko is Namatame's first kidnapping, Adachi doesn't yet know whether Namatame will just leave Yukiko in the TV or whether Namatame can actually get her back. Adachi probably thinks suspecting Yukiko is a win-win: either she ends up dead and makes his colleagues look like morons (which he'd probably find hilarious), or she turns up alive and Adachi has an excuse for some long "interrogation" sessions. If Adachi then put her back in the TV, Namatame wouldn't go in looking for her because he doesn't realize that anyone else has TV-world powers. Presumably, when Adachi realized that the Investigation Team had saved Yukiko from the TV, he realized that he couldn't get away with molesting Yukiko, since the IT would just rescue her from the TV if Adachi threw her in.

    The girls' grudge against Hanako 
  • While the girls are preparing for the pageant, they talk about wanting to beat Hanako because of last time (before Hanako insults them). What exactly did Hanako do? I don't remember anything bad involving them and Hanako besides the camping trip, but that seems too small for their reaction.
    • I believe it refers exactly to the camping trip, where Hanako refused to share food with them, and particularly annoyed Chie and Yukiko by not letting them sleep at night due to her snoring.

    How do the police know the victims were kidnapped first? 
  • Adachi and I think Naoto refer to how the victims were kidnapped, then murdered...but as far as the police should know, weren't Yamano, Saki, and Morooka (though I don't think he counts for my question), up and murdered? Yukiko, Kanji, and Rise were just reported as having gone missing, anyway, weren't they? So where'd they get the kidnap and murder connection?
    • If you mean how Naoto guessed about the murders, she mentions that she noticed that several people disappeared for a certain period of time after they appeared on television just like Yamano and Saki. As for Adachi, that's one of the hints that he knows what's really going on.

    We can't rely on the police! 
  • While the obviously couldn't or else the game wouldn't work, Yosuke's line that they can't rely on the police is really irritating. There is nothing stopping them from going up to Dojima, telling him what's going on and dragging him into a TV with them to prove it. Hell, they would have had their knowledge plus the resources of the police and a good part of the story could have been proving to the police that the team's help was needed. Instead we get multiple failed logic tests.
    • Consider the effect of Midnight Channel, drag innocent people into TV isn't something nice person will ever think. Remember how each person you rescued must stay in hospital for days? Also keep in mind that, although they can deal with them so far, shadows are something dangerous and I doubt any of the investigate team enjoy fighting one. Dragging Ryotaro inside TV mean they are going to fight another powerful shadow and that might not worth it.
      • Not necessarily. On their first visit they were perfectly fine after a night's rest (after running around in blinding fog for a while) and didn't encounter any shadows except for Teddie in the area they met Teddie. Also it would have been cool to see Dojima's Persona.
    • Conundrum: You tell Dojima, and then he sees the world inside the T.V. Then what? Dojima cracks down on the Inaba Scoobies because he's too scared of them going into the T.V. and your case comes to an immediate close. Dojima tries to investigate the T.V., but with no real way of dealing with what's in there, he likely gets himself killed. Besides, considering how inept the police department is (It's often joked that he makes the force 50% more competent singlehandedly), all they would've done is gotten themselves killed.
      • Or Dojima might awaken to his own Persona, since the events of Persona 4 Arena make it clear that being an adult doesn't preclude having one, and do a much better job solving the case than the group of untrained teenagers did.
      • Keep in mind what a shadow is. It takes your darkest thoughts and feelings, turns into a reflection of you with yellow eyes and more often than not an evil expression, and throws said feelings and thoughts to your face in the nastiest way possible. No one would be ready for that, and you would need someone to help you accept it, while also protecting you when the other shadows come out to play. Dojima already has quite visible issues (his grief over his wife's death, his troubles at being a good father to Nanako), so he would either freak out and/or start shooting. Besides, how would he enter? The only people who can enter that world are the Investigation Team, the real killer and his Unwitting Pawn, and without Teddy, he would not be able to get out. EDIT: And another point, Naoto's backstory, Shadow self and dialogue should make a point very clear: ADULTS. DON'T. LISTEN. TO. CHILDREN. There are several things you must be told about the TV World, and without the Team (likely forced to open the door without them going in), they would not know ("put on these glasses, they let you see"), specially the whole "don't deny your Shadow" point. A group of cops without help from someone who knows about the other world will only get himself killed, particularly if he can't face himself without help.
      • Emphasized further by the Dojima's character events in which he doesn't know how to resolve his issues with Nanako without MC intervening.

    Are you bulletproof in the TV World 
  • When you're fighting Kuni-no-Sagiri, and if he uses Control on Naoto, there's a chance she'll use her regular attack. And shoot you. TV makes you bulletproof or something?
    • Considering that you get stabbed, shocked, burned, frozen and generally pummeled with attacks that should kill you it's not so surprising that you could survive getting shot. Maybe it's really Fridge Brilliance and you're being affected by how people think guns should work on TV.
    • Persona's make you bulletproof, among other things. That's also why your character's stats/weaknesses/etc are their persona's. Check out Persona -trinity soul- for an idea of how it would look if not for graphical limitations.
    • You also have to consider that turn-based battle gameplay is just an abstraction of events that happen during said battles, such as how Dia, Revival Beads and whatnot are just pick-me-ups and not an instant injury regeneration or actual revival from the dead. While the game would show the MC being hit by a shot by a mind-controlled Naoto and losing HP, what would've really happened without gameplay animations getting in the way of depicting attacks is that the MC tried to dodge a bullet and avoid a fatal shot but lose stamina as a result. Eventually, if Naoto is still mind-controlled, the MC would get hit and actually die (0HP). There is also the above, where Personas grant a form of supernatural resistance to certain attacks.
      • That's not... really accurate. The very first Persona shows very explicitly that non-Awakened people, or Persona users who have had their Personas sealed off, are exactly as fragile as in real-life... but by the same token, it shows just as explicitly that active Persona users ARE supernaturally protected from damage that would ordinarily kill a normal person. So, unfortunately, the MC wouldn't "dodge and lose stamina", he would actually get hit by the bullet, but suffer less damage depending on his Persona's affinities.
      • Personas supplementing supernatural resistance is already mentioned above, but it is unlikely that is the case ALL the time. For instance, Shinjiro getting killed by two gunshots despite in-battle will likely survive similar attacks (the "shot" skills some shadows have), yet during Takaya's boss fight the shots do not do much damage, supporting thats its merely a simple way to convey what is happening, but should not be taken literally as well. Its explicitly observed in Persona 3 that Personas and their effects can only be invoked with the aid of an Evoker or by having sheer willpower to call them out.

    Naoto and Gender Identity 
  • Naoto is fairly obviously upset with being a woman, and at the beginning of the story is pretty much trans. You "fix" her and one of your options for the Christmas date is a schoolgirl uniform. Dear god, let's hope the anime handles that better.
    • Or she's desperately hiding her gender because she doesn't fit in with what girls are supposed to be like in Japanese society, and she's going into a heavily male-dominated field, so she convinced herself she had to hide her true gender. Then Protagonist comes in and helps her deal with how she can pursue her dreams and still be a woman. Which is probably what the developers were going for in the first place. All the trans stuff is fans projecting like you would not believe.
      • Right, and we'd just have to forget her uncomfortability in being seen as a woman, passing as a man for months and continuing to do so off and on even after the reveal, her male Persona (only person in the series with that), being more comfortable speaking in a lower pitch/using male pronouns, and apparently in the backstory being much more comfortable with stereotypically male activities as opposed to female. She's assuredly trans or genderqueer to some extent, but probably not someone who would transition.
      • She's uncomfortable being seen as a woman because she has spent so much energy trying not to be seen that way (due to her work) that she doesn't know how to be one. Her Persona is male? Since when? It looks exactly like her but in baggy clothes, emphasizing that she is (or feels) treated as a child more than anything. As for "stereotypically male" activities, Chie has her beat at those, and no one questions her sexuality.
      • Both of Naoto's Personae are based on male legendary figures. Sukuna-Hikona is a tiny medicine kami (deity), and Yamato-Takeru is a prince who was said to have become a white bird after his death.
      • And over half of Protagonist's Personas, as well as Kuni-no-Sagiri, are female. It doesn't mean that Protagonist thinks of himself as female whenever he wants to get the most out of his afterschool chats with Yukiko.
      • Protagonist is different, and his "default" persona is Izanagi anyways; besides there are some parts of the game where he can come across as Ambiguously Gay or genderqueer (Yosuke, the dating cafe, etc). The fact remains that Naoto is the sole member of any team in Persona 3 or 4 (2 and 1 are arguably a different continuity) that has a Persona of a different gender. She's similar to Kanji in that she can be read either way and the game is ambiguous as to which is the "correct" interpretation. Incidentally people do question Chie's sexuality as well, she comes off slightly as a Butch Lesbian and Chie/Yukiko is a pretty popular ship with a fair amount of evidence in the game. And "She's uncomfortable being seen as a woman because she has spent so much energy trying not to be seen that way" is a pretty clear definition of a Transsexual. Whether or not she is Transsexual is impossible to say; regardless she still touches on a lot of the issues of Transsexuals much like Kanji does with gay men.
      • She's uncomfortable being seen as a woman because she has spent so much energy trying not to be seen that way because of her male-dominated work-environment. It has nothing to do with her gender identity.
      • Also: 'The only one with an opposite gender Persona?' Both of Ken Amada's Personas are female: Nemesis is the goddess of revenge, and Kala-Nemi is based on a Hindu (female) figure, even if their appearances aren't exactly slender and girly in the game.
      • Being uncomfortable being seen as a woman is par of her gender identity, regardless of the reason. It also doesn't explain why she dresses up just to go around town or continues to at school after her cover is completely blown. She's certainly more comfortable being seen as a man, and regardless of the reasoning that's pretty clearly transsexual or genderqueer to some extent.
      • Or she feels more comfortable presenting as male because she's been doing it for so long.
      • Or perhaps she just feels uncomfortable wearing something she has refrained from wearing probably for years. I personally don't think her every day clothing really looks male, beside maybe the tie, and girl wearing ties really isn't that rare, and for the school uniform it's a short (knee-length skirt.) I haven't spent years pretending to be a boy and I feel uncomfortable in skirts that length. That doesn't make me transexual. It's just a matter of what she feels most comfortable in.
      • The transsexual interpretation still comes off as projecting after these quotes:
    Yukiko: You must know already that what you yearn for isn't to become an adult or to become a boy...
    Naoto: You're absolutely right.

    Naoto: I have to be an adult...I have to be a man...with that way of thinking, I was running away from myself. I finally think I can accept myself. I am a woman. And a detective.
    • I feel like it's mostly Values Dissonance at play here. Japan—as the game demonstrates—doesn't really think of gender and sex as different entities, and sex segregation is much more prevalent in Japanese society, so that's what Japanese players are relating to and getting out of it. It's not the same in the West; the sexes here are not exactly equal but it's nowhere near Japan's level, so it's no wonder people over here are deriving a different gender issue from Naoto's character arc. It is more socially relevant than the original meaning! Lines like "though I will one day change from a child to an adult, I will never change from a woman to a man" make it clear that she believes that you can't be truly male if you don't have a biologically male body; she continues to dress like a boy, bind her chest and talk in a low tone even after her reveal, and she insists no one treat her differently (i.e. as a girl) and reacts badly to other people seeing her body as feminine. All the way up to the end of her social link and beyond. To me this really, really, really doesn't fit the profile of someone who identifies as a woman and is just faking the whole guy thing to get her peers to accept her. She legitimately likes being seen as male in daily life. People who strongly identify as women... don't. But then, why does she try to accept herself as a woman and allow female pronouns to be used? Because she is living in a small backwater village where people carry strong traditional ideas about gender roles and have no concept at all of a gender/sex schism or nonbinary gender. If she's physically female, she is a girl and can't be anything but a girl, because it doesn't make sense otherwise. The creators probably also think the same way, so to them, the general population of Japan, the characters in the story, and Naoto herself, she is absolutely female—there is simply no other option. But to people who know about the concept (predominantly a Western idea), have met people who are transgender or are transgender themselves probably can't see her as anything but that. Their interpretations aren't really incorrect, they are just thinking outside of the given cultural context. You can argue about how much a foreign concept of identity can apply to a person who has never heard of it, but yeah.
      • I agree. This is how I thought of it in the first place. It also makes sense regarding Kanji's ambiguous sexuality, and his crush. He did indeed fall in love with a male. They just were biologically female.
      • You are forcing ideas, which are pretty much specific to Western culture, onto an Eastern game. That is projecting. And after you defeat her Shadow, Naoto does agree that she never wanted to become a man, simply to not be seen as a child/weak/underestimated if she did show any feminine traits.
      • Read the paragraph again please, I was basically agreeing it was "projecting" in a less aggressive and angry tone. That doesn't stop Western audiences from feeling extremely uncomfortable anyway when Naoto is pretty much forced by her friends into a bikini fashion show she is obviously uncomfortable with, or that to get on the romance path with her you have to tell her you're not okay with who she is and that she should dress, act and sound more feminine, or that a lot of things said to her—including the Yukiko quote up there telling Naoto she doesn't actually want to "become a man"—are really hurtful and demeaning things transgender people hear all the time in real life from ignorant people who can't wrap their heads around why a "girl" wants to be recognized as a boy. And honestly, it's not really up for debate that Naoto feels more comfortable and at home when she is being seen and treated as male, because that's extremely obvious, no matter what interpretation you are using. If she falls in love with you, she agrees to be feminine for your eyes only when you are alone together, but otherwise wants to keep binding, wearing men's clothes and speaking in a low voice in public.
      • In my opinion, Naoto acting more feminine for the MC only, while continuing to present as male in public, seems more like her 'transitioning' (for lack of a better word) male-to-female. I know a few trans people who are only comfortable presenting as their actual gender in private, at least at first (and, as someone has pointed out, Naoto is much more feminine in her novel). Basically, she became her 'mask' of maleness (which is why her Personae are male note ), and after confronting her Shadow, she started to undo that and become comfortable with her femaleness, instead of hiding behind her 'mask'.
      • Thank you for this— it really means a lot to me, to have someone else properly articulate what I'm apparently unable to. The issue may not be so much whether Naoto is or isn't transgender; it's the uncomfortable feelings that her story can dredge up for transgender players. Even though she isn't transgender herself, it all still hits close to home— yet this seems to be difficult for some to grasp. Plus, these heated debates that seem to permeate the P4 fandom whenever Naoto's gender issues are brought up don't make things any nicer. I understand why trans people have such strong reactions in these debates, but the others... ? I'm almost depressed to admit that I never really thought my gender identity was this sensitive of an issue for me until I started reading internet debates about a fictional character. I want my superpowers after I accept all this, goddammit.
      • Well either way, she got over it. Naoto gets her own detective novel that takes place a year after P4, and it shows her with long hair, no long binding her breasts, and even an image of her in a Swimsuit with Rise. She's learned that she can still be feminine and be a Detective, though the images we've seen so far don't exactly show her in a dress.
      • You want to know why some people keep "projecting" even after the reveal? It's because Naoto is introduced as what seems to be FTM transgender, which is exciting because mainstream media isn't exactly choked with trans characters (especially not FTM), but then we get the rug pulled out from under us when it turns out that, no, she's just another Sweet Polly Oliver. And that doesn't make sense. It's not as if her gender is actually stopping her from pursuing her career, so why else would a girl dress, act, and speak like a boy? The apparently obvious answer is that she's trans. But then the truth turns out to be that she just has terrible self-esteem and weird delusions. And that's just a giant "WTF Seriously?" moment. One, because logic seemed to be dictating the former, only for it to end up all pear-shaped, and two, name me a FTM character from anything mainstream. It's having a carrot dangled really close to your face, only for it to be yanked away, and it is not fun (especially since this seems to happen a lot with LGBT characters). I don't understand how there's any confusion as to why people would be in denial about this. And the fact that some people seem to be in a huff over the fact that others still want to see her as trans is just I don't even.
      • Um, she's not "introduced as an FTM." She's introduced as a "strange boy" that keeps tailing the investigation. What "seems to you" might not be the case for the majority of the audience, nor the creators of the character. Attributing anything beyond that IS projecting. And her gender IS also a barrier to her pursuing her chosen career in male-dominated Japan. Her plight is twofold: that's she's too young to be taken seriously as a detective, and that's she's female. That's why she passes herself off as a boy when conducting investigations. As simple as that.
      • I realize that the game never gave her the title "FTM Boy" before revealing her name, yes. What I meant was that they introduced a female character, who is (I hope) very clearly female, yet who is presented as a boy. Why is it illogical that someone's first reaction might be "She's transgender"? As far as I recall, there where no other explanations hinted at until her dungeon. I really cannot think of a better "this is what you're supposed to be thinking when you first meet her" option, other than that she actually is a boy. Maybe the Japanese VA did a better job of disguising her voice? Besides, I thought the question of whether Naoto truly wished to be a boy, or if she only wanted that because she felt limited by being female was something you were meant to wonder about? If so, how is it projecting if, initially, you believed the former to be true? The game itself seems to be setting you up to possibly make that assumption. Meanwhile, being female must not have been as big a barrier as she thought, since a year later she's apparently off working as an openly female detective. Okay, wait, you know what? Look. Okay. I see it this way, you see it that way. I can deal with that. Can we just leave it there? I'm just so fatigued from all this Naoto's Gender! talk and it's doing bad things to me in the heart facsimile; I kinda wish I never bothered in the first place.
      • This genderqueer troper agrees that it's extremely open to interpretation, but if anyone cares, my interpretation is that, yes, they pulled a bait-and-switch on us with Naoto, and, pre-rescue, she didn't feel like she was allowed to both be female and pursue her chosen career, and she decided that her career was more important. Post-rescue, she's realised that that was a false dichotomy, but 1) she's been dressing that way for years now and a person's comfort zone doesn't change overnight, and, probably more importantly, 2) she's afraid of giving up her male-passing privilege, and with very good reason, considering some of the stupid gender-essentialist stuff other characters say about her after The Reveal (e.g. "of course she was scared [while getting chloroformed and abducted by a serial killer]; she's a girl"). Again, that's just this troper's interpretation.
      • Sorry troper, but you are meant to think that Naoto is male, not FTM transgender. This is evident from the reactions of every other character after the truth is revealed. It's hidden more easily in the Japanese version, with its lack of gender pronouns and the fact that Romi Park (Naoto's female Japanese VA) has a long track record of voicing young male characters. I really sympathise with you, as there are so few games (and media in general) that have young transgender protagonists or even deal with gender identity in a positive way.
    • I realise this issue is probably dropped by now, but this troper feels the need to add that one's reception and interpretation of Naoto obviously varies wildly according to the value system he has been instilled with (everyone has one): I personally believed Naoto was indeed a boy initially (it's not exactly a common female name) and after realising she was not I took for granted the explanation given, that she was concealing her identity out of a mistaken belief that being a female as well as too oung was an insurmountable obstruction to her chosen career. Through the course of the game and advancing her Social Link she comes to see that she was mistaken in trying to conceal her identity and that the "right" path, so to speak, would be to actually demonstrate she IS strong enough to be both a woman and a detective, as well as relearn "how to be a woman", so to speak again. Hence her initial discomfort at dressing and speaking femininely (since she's obviously been using the male disguise for a long time) and initially allowing herself to appear feminine only in front of the protagonist (having no experience in womanly behavior, she is rightly afraid of mockery or social faux passes unforgivable to a female which would be allowable for a male - especially egregious given that this is Japan). That was how I read the character, at least.Out of curiosity, how did you interpret other Sweet Polly Oliver characters, such as Charle from Infinite Stratos?
    • Being transgender and defying gender roles are completely independent of one another. Not wanting to be treated the way women are in Japan, and acting more masculine, does not make her transgender - Gender isn't a choice any more than sex is, and suggesting that it is just reinforces the gender roles that cause the discomfort people like her feel in the first place.
    • I think what also does not help is that the sexism she faces isn't properly explored (as further mentioned in a later entry). We haven't come across a scene where police officers say things that are borderline harrassment stuff like Mitsuru's ex-fiance in Persona 3. Nor we have seen how the police dismiss Naoto's argument in favour of a male colleague who is clearly less competent than Naoto - say until Dojima bails her out and tears apart his colleagues - similar to how Sae experienced sexism in Persona 5. Nor a discussion of how Naoto's mom was slighted/disrespected etc. (Nor her returning in Persona 5, which I think was a missed opportunity big-time in further exploring sexism and police corruption in Japan, and showcasing Naoto vs Akechi.) If her Social Link was more this and less "run around Inaba for Grandad's adventure game", then I think most people would recognize Naoto's Social Link as unambiguously feminist in her narrative.

    There Are No Sandwiches In The Midnight Channel 
  • Why has no one brought this up? Unless you rescue them on the first day available, you could leave people in the Midnight Channel for up to weeks at a time. Shouldn't they starve or dehydrate? Time also flows normally in the Midnight Channel, as demonstrated by the first few times you go in. Yosuke mentions how late it is the first time, and Chie wouldn't be so upset if we came back within a few minutes.
    • Considering that you can get stabbed, shot, electrocuted, fried, blown up, poisoned, frozen and hurt in a variety of ways without dying we can attribute this to two different things. The first is that the TV world operates on very different laws than Earth does. The second is that they needed it that way to make the plot work.
      • There is also the fact we do find food in the TV world. Odd morsels and whatnot. Sure, they are mostly carried by shadows, but the shadows must acquire them somewhere. Then we have Shadow what's-her-name first dungeon, where you can get and bring to the real world actual Sake. The TV world has food and beverages, it just never a plot point.
      • There's a stock of groceries in Shadow Yosuke's "dungeon," modeled after Saki's family store, but that's it. No other dungeons are modeled after locations that could have food in them. And considering that people need glasses to see through the fog and not feel ill from its effects, the chances of a victim randomly stumbling into treasure chests with "food"-like items are very, very low. And speaking of that last point, the trio was starting to feel the effects of the fog just from wandering around in that first area they encountered (Magatsu Inaba.) The same thing would happen to ordinary victims, so the easiest explanation is that time DOES flow differently in the Midnight Channel... not in a Year Inside, Hour Outside kind of way, but probably the reverse, where a victim can spend up to two real-time weeks in their dungeon without collapsing from exhaustion because it's been only a few hours for them (or, at least, an indeterminate but not equal amount of time.) Or would Namatame really spend two weeks alone with Nanako, keeping her hostage without eating or sleeping himself and without realizing the truth of the Midnight Channel?
        Though, come to think of it, if the Midnight Channel is a pathway into humanity's collective subconscious, it's far more likely that —dungeons being created by the victim's repressed thoughts and feelings— these locations are much closer to a metaphysical Journey to the Center of the Mind than a place where rules of physics and biology still apply 100%.
    • The dungeons are created in response to that specific person's subconscious mind: Your Mind Makes It Real writ large. It might respond to a hunger impulse in the creator's mind by providing food and water. This would even explain why the Shadows carry small food items from time to time: either the creator didn't find those particular items or they were discarded.
    • Also, remember when Fuuka was missing for ten days in Persona 3? The characters commented that while it had been ten days, for Fuuka it had likely only been about ten hours. Maybe it's something like that in the TV world.
    • That was different. The Dark Hour was literally only an hour and Tartarus apparently stands still when it's gone. Judging by what Teddie says, time passes normally in the Midnight Channel. Otherwise, he would have no reason to comment on how lonely he's been while you're gone. If it worked like the Dark Hour, you'd literally leave and come right back.
  • This is what makes Chie's Joke Ending in P 4 A so bizarre. She apparently fell sick/unconscious from eating some (apparently highly toxic) TV World food. You've been shovelling all kinds of weird stuff into your mouth since you started going to the TV World, since any medicine you can get at Shiroku, you can find in the TV World and more besides.

    Teddie's Bear Puns in Japanese 
  • We're supposed to assume everyone's speaking Japanese, right? Then...Teddie's bear puns really don't make much sense.
    • It's my understanding that Teddie makes similar bear puns in the Japanese version: frex, "Bear-sona" is in place of "Peru-kuma." (Unfortunately, that's the only example I know, so it's possible that that's an isolated example.)
    • In the Japanese version, Teddie tacks "-kuma" on to the end of every sentence. (A bit like Naruto and his "dattebayo.") Since something like this doesn't translate well to English (Just look at what happened with Naruto) they had Teddie constantly speak with unbearable puns.

    The Girls' Constant, Unapologetic Abuse of the Guys 
  • What is it with the need to put up with the behavior of the girls in this game. If you compliment Chie and Yukiko on how they look in swimsuits they blush. After Yosuke does they same decide to push all of the guys into the water (which Morooaka throws up in). When Yosuke signs the girls up for a beauty contestnote  they then force Yosuke and all the other guys to enter a cross dressing pageant, even though only Yosuke was responsible. When you spend a night at the Amagi inn not only do the girls take up your time in the hot spring but Yukiko also puts you in the same room Yamano died in. Then there's the times you have to eat their cooking, which you can't get out of. But the worst of all is that you can't skip through any of this and they never apologize for anything. Is this supposed to be funny?
    • Don't forget Chie kicking Yosuke in the nuts after he apologizes for cracking her CD. He did apologize and promise to replace it, but she seems to have no remorse over what she did. Although I should point out that Kashiwagi made so that anyone who entered couldn't back out. Some of the other points are valid however. The girls tend to get away with alot, which is a bit annoying.
      • Yukiko also slaps Yosuke when he considers asking her for "private lessons", which he (for once) meant innocently. While his tone was a bit suggestive is battery a justified response? Also it seems a bit odd that the girls can't simply demand that they be permitted to withdraw from the contest. Even in a small town that might emphasize community they give up easily.
      • Sometimes Disproportionate Retribution is the only way to get someone to back off, unfortunately. Also, I believe Yukiko DID apologize when she realized what he actually meant.
      • Yosuke examples aside, if the Hotsprings Episode is any indication, I wonder if the girls sometimes realize they are at least somewhat in the wrong, but just keep their mouths shut and hope it never gets brought up again out of embarrasement. Or in the case of Chie, it may be Pride. She may simply be too stubborn to apologize especially if you know who is the recipient.
      • Both this scene and the Hot Spring Execution scene from Persona 3 run on Double Standard: Abuse, Female on Male. It's a basic "Harem Anime" trope to have slighted girls (even girls who only think they're being slighted, even when they're actually wrong) to punish any males in the vicinity with physical violence and total impunity. And for some reason, said males just take it and never call them out on it. Persona 4's instance is just one of the most blatant, facepalm-deserving examples of the trope.
        Of course, this is the same sequence where where the guys try to sneak into the girls' room and into their beds, going as far as asking them to "be gentle" and "make [them] a man." So really, both sides were being extraordinarily stupid and sexist and not funny at all.
      • I assumed the guys were put in Yamano's room because it's not very popular after a dead lady stayed in it, making it easily attainable, plus no one's paying for the stay, anyway.
      • I must note that the boys did not try to sneak into the girls' room until after they had been pummeled and made aware by the staff that it was indeed their time in the bath. And while all of this is going on, the girls are still taking up the boys' time in the bath. Basically, the boys get punished for their being stupid... and for the girls being stupid.
      • About that beauty pageant, true, Yosuke was the one who signed them up, but the other guys also undermined their agency, talking them pretty hard into actually participating. So, no, he wasn't the only one responsible for putting them on the spot like that.
  • It's supposed to be Rule of Funny, but it is pretty badly done. This troper really hates Chie because of all the crap she does to the guys (especially Yosuke.) The others are as guilty in some areas but never as bad as Chie.
  • This troper is not surprised by this given that men are more harshly criticised in general for mistreatment of women than the reverse. Women often get away with calling out men on their actions in real life (even if this was actually not the case) and men are more often laughed at when they even bring up such things. It thereby comes as no surprise that the male characters find themselves forced to accept their fates and the women appear to show little to no remorse given that society doesn't really enforce them to feel any remorse and more often would be likely to cheer them on.

    Yukiko's perplexing lack of knowledge regarding the bathtime periods of her own family's inn 
  • Shouldn't Yukiko know the bath times of her family's own inn?
    • It may have been for the sake of the joke, or more likely Rule of Funny induced forgetfulness.
    • Maybe they changed the times recently.
      • You can't exactly wear watches in a hot spring. And the girls were surprised when Teddie suddenly charged in and jumped in, hitting Yukiko in the process. The girls freaked out when they saw the boys and started chucking buckets. It wasn't until after the boys left and things calmed down that Yukiko realized the mistake.
  • Perhaps more perplexing is the fact that the girls somehow pulled what seemed to be an infinite supply of buckets out of the water given the number of them they throw at the guys (refer to the anime scene)

    Recieving the Warning Letter 
  • Why did Adachi send the warning letter to the main character's house? It's not clearly explained even in the flashback scenes before Magatsu Inaba/Mandala.
    • Adachi wanted to keep the team from saving any more people and stopping the fun, and hoped that by scaring Protagonist the team would stop. Of course why the risk was taken when it could easily be found by someone else (like it was) is a good question.
      • While Adachi isn't stupid, he's not perfect. Remember how they figured him out in the first place. He probably just didn't think it through.
    • Adachi probably began to realize how close the scoobies really were to figuring him out, and sent the letter as a truly last-ditch effort to dissuade Protagonist from finding out the truth. Of course it just made it easier to finger him out, but it isn't too much of a stretch to believe he'd take the risk, given how the whole thing was made up as he went along, with very little regards to the consequences.

    Saki's Dungeon 
  • Okay, so Chie's Shadow appeared at Yukiko's Castle, so she didn't get a dungeon. But what about Saki? Apparently time isn't a factor in the creation of a dungeon, seeing that all the others who are throw in there receive their dungeon in the same day, and she did appeared on the Midnight Channel. But while all the others programs had the Shadows appearing, Saki's was her death. Also aplies to that first lady. Her's is just a room. And on top of it all, Adachi somehow manages to create his own dungeon and make it only accessable through there. So what, Adachi was so goddamn powerful he could bend the TV World to his will? You were there for a whole year and it never appeared to make things easier when you wanted. In fact, it always made things worst. I can understand why their Shadows are gone after you defeat them, and I can understand why people who face their Shadows in other people's dungeons don't get any, but this is bugging me.
    • Entirely fanwanked response: They had dungeons, but after the subject of those dungeons died (before the protagonists ever got into the TV World, mind), the mazes disappeared back into nothingness with no one to maintain them, leaving only the shell of the "boss room". Effectively, the dungeons themselves were actively maintained by the Shadows (or Egos) to keep people out, and once they're no longer there, poof, no more randomly generated hallways. Something actively creating the dungeons would also explain why the layout changes every time someone goes in there.
      • It's also more likely that we just don't really see much of those dungeons, or don't realize we do. With the case of Saki, we do see that the entire shopping district of Inaba was created, though we only get to move around inside the store. It's entirely possible there was more to Yamano's world too that we didn't see. And speaking of fanwanked theories, here's one that just popped into my head. If the "true" form of the other world is the rolling hills, mountains, etc. we see at the end.... why is the hub where we first come in a TV Studio? Maybe the entrance in and of itself is part of Yamano's dungeon.

    Personas, Personae 
  • Why do the English localizations for Persona 3 and Persona 4 refer to "Personas" in menus and such when we've got the perfectly good plural "Personae?" Makes this troper cringe every time.
    • I think it's more for pronounce issues, and the word is quite uncommon. Saying "Personae" sounds a bit unnatural. Saying "Personas" is easier. And it's not like the protagonists know a lot about Personae anyway. The Scooby Inaba Gang hadn't even made the connection between "Persona" and "Personality" until Naoto explained. Perharps it's supposed to reflect the characthers?
    • I read somewhere (maybe Wikipedia?) that it was because of aesthetic reasons.
    • "Personae" is the plural of the real-world term "persona". "Personas" means the plural of "the specific power that is known as Persona". It was likely done to distinguish the two.

    Chie's Parents 
  • Minor nitpick: Why do we not learn anything about Chie's parents? We get to learn that Yosuke's father is the manager of Junes, Yukiko's family runs the Amagi Inn, Kanji's mother runs the Textile shop, Rise's grandmother runs the Tofu shop (which also makes me wonder, where are her parents?), Naoto's parents are dead and her grandfather is a private detective, and obviously Teddie has no parents. Which leaves Chie as the odd one out. "Well excuse me for not fitting in!", indeed.
    • They simply must not have any significant impact on her backstory, characterization, or even the plot. All of the other characters' parents do. MC lives with the Dojima, one of the detectives on the case. Yosuke's father being the Junes manager earns him a lot of scorn and fuels his Shadow. Yukiko's family owning the inn makes everyone assume she'll inherit it, fueling her Shadow. Kanji's mom and Rise's grandmother run other businesses, giving the Investigation Team opportunities to do some sleuthing or forward their investigation. Naoto's parents and grandfather being detectives are reasons for Naoto to be a detective, thereby giving Naoto a place in these events before joining you.

    How does the fox survive in the TV world? 
  • Same troper as before. How does the fox survive in the TV world? I can understand why it doesn't have a Shadow, since being a wild animal it has no need to hide the truth from anyone. Yet it doesn't need to wear glasses and it never gets sick.
    • Well it does have all those healing leaves, one can assume if it gets sick it just eats one. And as for the glasses issue aside from occasionally chilling in a room in the dungeon he stays outside with the group, not like he needs to see very far when he can follow everyone else.
      • It's a fox that understands human speech, is capable of reasoning (at least as far as "humans write wishes on ema -> wishes get granted -> humans donate more money to shrine -> more donations equals upkeep for shrine"), has an unlimited supply of magical healing leaves, and is actively working to maintain the shrine. That's definitely not a normal wild animal, and is probably some kind of low-level supernatural being that's fully capable of taking care of itself.
      • It's likely either a Kitsune, or the type of creature that inspired the legends of them.

    The Inaba Police and Fingerprints 
  • Why did it take the police so long to find out Mitsuo's fingerprints were on Mayumi and Saki's clothes?
    • Because his fingerprints were never on the clothes to begin with. It turns out that Adachi was responsible for that, which makes it even stranger that you can never bring that up in the game. At the least it should be obvious that the police were tampering with evidence but even genius detective Naoto doesn't notice.
    • The developers probably thought there was already enough evidence that Mitsuo didn't kill them, ie as you go through Void Quest you see his ramblings, and he "defeated" Mayumi and Saki but "killed" Morooka. And the fact that King Moron's cause of death was identifiable would have made it clear. It would have been better if you brought it up as you choose who you think was the suspect though, but it didn't happen earlier because we weren't supposed to suspect Adachi yet.
    • I'm already aware of the above points, but why didn't they check sooner than that? And if they did, it isn't suspicious that the fingerprints just suddenly appeared there?
      • That's the point.
      • What's the point? That the police are completely inept?
      • Frankly the majority of the police do seem to be fairly useless, ignoring a strange run of disappearances and occasionally suspecting people (like Yukiko) who obviously lack the physical strength to murder someone. Also it's very strange that you can never point out how odd the fingerprints are in-game. From a Doylist perspective this Troper suspects that the writers simply never realized this or they would have made it something you can point out when you're discussing suspects.
    • Someone please educate me on forensics but do the police even have Mitsuo's prints on file?
      • They probably didn't have his prints until after he was arrested, and it was only after his arrest that the 'prints' were found on the victims' clothes, which means that Adachi either planted them on the clothes or he just faked a test.
      • I thought they only found Kubo's prints on Morooka's body. Doesn't Adachi say at one point that they had no proof Kubo killed Saki or Mayumi aside from his confession? He'd have no reason to lie to the Protagonist about that, since he only needs Namatame to be convinced that the killer is still at large, not anyone else.
      • In responce to suspecting Yukiko. They died by "unknown cause" they suspect poisoning. And what's this about Mitsuo's fingerprints were on Mayumi and Saki's clothes? I have not heard of any lines in the game indicating this.
      • They weren't. That was the problem. The police only "found the fingerprints" on Morooka's clothes, so they could only prove that Mitsuo killed Morooka. But they were so desperate to close the case that they were willing to accept Mitsuo's claim that he killed all of them.

    Chie and Yukiko's friendship 
  • Chie and Yukiko's friendship seems horribly one sided going by their respective social links and the random conversations in the dungeons. Chie's social link features Yukiko, her friendship with her and her want to protect her. In one rank up, you even get more points for saying that you would 'protect Yukiko' than you would if you picked to 'protect Chie'. But Yukiko hardly mentions Chie at all in her social link, even during parts where it would make sense to. Chie also compliments Yukiko a lot, or comments that people/her dog like Yukiko over her, and not once does Yukiko say something nice back, or say that plenty of people like Chie. The only compliments I seem to remember are about Chie getting along with guys, and that Chie gets 'above average' grades in the subjects she doesn't fail. No bashing of Yukiko here, the friendship just seems very one sided at times.
    • Chie could have a higher Expression stat than Yukiko, or it could even be that Chie does truly care more about Yukiko than Yukiko would for Chie. A long enough common history doesn't automatically mean they have— or even should have— equal emotional investment, or identical personalities.
      • Chie says whatever she's thinking, something she herself acknowledges at one point in the game. Yukiko, meanwhile, is more reserved and doesn't necessarily talk as much about everything she feels, and when she does discuss her feelings with the protagonist during her S.Link it's very focused on the context of her feelings about either the inn or the protagonist himself. I don't know if that's quite the same thing as Chie having higher Expression (since that seems to be about one's ability to make oneself understood), but in any case it's an explanation for why Chie talks so much more about Yukiko than Yukiko talks about Chie.
    • Social links are about resolving the character`s main issue. Chie`s is about protecting those dear to her; Yukiko`s is about her future career. Yukiko doesn`t have issues involving her friendship with Chie, so it isn`t brought up during the social link.
      • That's true, and it's also reflected with their Shadows. Shadow Chie is completely obsessed with controlling Yukiko to feel superior to her. Meanwhile, Shadow Yukiko suggests that Chie might have been her Prince, but she can't take her away from Inaba.

    Goho-M, It's Also A Great Detergent! 
  • What do normal people do with Goho-M when they buy it? Does it make you warp out of your workplace or something...?
    • Of course. Just like normal people become invisible with Vanish Balls and revive the dead using Revival Beads and Balms of Life.
    • If I recall correctly, the Shiroku Store lady asks you to "buy lots of snacks" on rainy days, the protagonists explicitly go there for snacks before staking out the tofu shop, and Adachi asks if you're stocking up on snacks when he meets you there. So the items she sells (and that are found in the dungeons) are probably snacks/novelty mystical beads, crystals, balms etc. that have magical effects inside the TV World. (i.e. "Hey Yosuke, doesn't Goho-M sound like go h -" *crunch* *teleport*)
    • That actually makes a lot of sense when you consider the properties of the TV World: It's formed by human thoughts. Let's say that there are these items (beads, balms, crystals, and whatnot) that are attached to people's beliefs in magic. In The TV World, the collective power of people's minds can make things real, so if people believe that these beads can bring back the dead, then in the TV world they really can. As you noted, people would mentally connect "Goho-M" with the English phrase "Go home", giving the item that power inside the TV world. Even the idea that snacks heal you makes a lot of sense too, as snack foods are typically associated with recovery. (Comfort food, for example.)

    Why do the corpses end up on telephone poles? 
  • Anyone else wonder why the corpses from the TV world always end up on the telephone poles and lines? Besides, I guess, massive chill factor? As far as I know, no one ever explains this.
    • It's never explained, but it makes some sense: an antenna is where things that go into the TV enter, while the screen is where they exit. When something goes backwards, through the screen and into the TV (and doesn't come back out the same way) it gets expelled out the opposite "end". And just like entering a random TV would make the protagonists appear in a different place of the TV World, getting thrown out of the TV World results in coming out of a random antenna.
      • It's also possible that Morooka's body being hung from a water tower (instead of something TV-related) is foreshadowing that it was a copycat-murder. If Morooka had been killed in the TV world, then his body should have ended up on a power line like the others.

    I will die for you, friend I barely know! 
  • All you need for your party members to take a mortal blow for you is a bare minimum social link level. Since when does being barely acquainted with someone result in them gaining the will to sacrifice their lives for yours?
    • It was probably intended to encourage you to develop your Social Links and to make the game slightly easier compared to Persona 3.
    • This gets changed in Persona 4 Golden so that they take a mortal blow at Rank 9 instead of Rank 1.

    Swords At A Food Court (Two Bits!) 
  • Why was Protagonist arrested along with Yosuke during the whole swords-at-the-food-court incident? Yosuke was the one waving around sharp objects in a public place, Protagonist was just sitting in at a table in front of him. By that logic, they should have arrested half the food court as well. And then Doujima has the nerve to blame you for it! I knew the Inaba Police Department was massively inept, but sheesh...
    • Considering that the two of you were together for this and the police officer first there panicked they do have some reason to take Protagonist toonote . Of course Dojima does seem to be pretty harsh on you.
      • Truth in Television; if you're hanging around someone when they're committing a crime, you'll get arrested with them, regardless of whether you were guilty or not. And Dojima being mad is pretty justified. You're in the city less than a week and you're already associating yourself with a nut waving his swords in a public place.
      • The fact that two murders had recently taken place probably didn't help either

    When Teddie goes missing, how does the party exit the Midnight Channel? 
  • Okay, so it was established early in the game that the party needs Teddie in order to get out of the Midnight Channel. So when Teddie goes missing and the party is looking for Adachi in the Midnight Channel, how does the party get out of the Midnight Channel?
    • I'm guessing Rise has the same power to create exits. Considering that her Persona does the same thing as Teddie's senses, but on a much higher level, she can probably do the same. Not that we get to see it, but perhaps during these scenes it would be too jarring to say "btw Rise can do the exit thing as well".
    • My theory is that Teddie created a permanent point from Junes to the TV world so they can go in and out at any time. This would explain why they couldn't go after Adachi through the hospital TV because an exit point hasn't been established by Teddie there.
      • Confirmed as of Persona 4: Arena where Yosuke tells Teddie to put an exit in the TV so that they can get out of the TV World if they accidentally get inside it. Which sets up Kanji's hilarious story mode thinking it was All Just a Dream.

    It's Suspicious That You Knew What I Already Told You 
  • When Adachi is cornered by the investigation team, Naoto tells him that she initially suspected him because he didn't react with any surprise to finding the names of other victims in Namatame's diary, even though they had only been classified by the police as disappearances and not murders. But in the scene where they realize that Namatame has been behind the kidnappings, Naoto mentions that they were all intended victims right in front of him. Why is it suspicious that he knew there were other victims when she told him that herself? Isn't that flawed logic?
    • What was supposed to be suspicious about Adachi is that when Naoto first mentioned that they were 'victims' he didn't show any confusion or surprise. However it is pretty weak evidence, especially since this was in the middle of a kidnapping and logically Adachi would have had far more on his mind than Naoto's exact words. Unfortunately in these kinds of mystery games the player often has to accept people not thinking of things that they logically would and having reactions that are supposed to be suspicious when they can easily have innocent reasons.
      • Keep in mind that the Investigation Team is reaching by that point. The only reason Adachi is even suspected is because he's the only one that they know makes some amount of sense. As he points out during his motive rant, the world doesn't want "the" killer, they want "a" killer. And while he's proven wrong if you pursue the game to the True Ending, that doesn't change the fact that they were desperate by that point.
    • It's supposed to be easy to miss. The team had been talking about the case right in front of him, so the player is led to assume that he'd just put two and two together. The catch is This makes no sense; as far as the police were concerned there had been only 3 murder/kidnappings (more on that in a second) and the disappearances of the Yukiko, Kanji, Rise, and Naoto had been unrelated. Adachi had been playing along with that line of reasoning right up until Naoto found Namatame's journal, at which point he suddenly seemed to know that there had been more kidnappings. He also seemed to know that Mitsuo Kubo had been a copycat killer, NOT the main culprit (hence, the 3rd murder). Take into account some other strange behavior, such as immediately spotting Namatame's name on a list of suspects in Dojima's notes, and his sudden enthusiasm for his work, it becomes a bit more understandable why Naoto became suspicious.
    Yu: Nobody knew about that. We hadn't told that police about the kidnappings that weren't murders... But when Naoto read the names [from the journal] you seemed to know already. How do you explain that, Adachi?!
    • Also, we need to clarify something about Nauto: She hadn't made the connection until after Yu (ie, the Player) brought it up. She'd had a nagging feeling that there was something "odd" about Adachi, but couldn't figure out what (basically an In-Universe example of Fridge Logic). It wasn't until the crew began taking a hard look at Adachi's behavior that she understood why the remark bothered her.

    Kohryu's name 
  • Why does Kunino-Sagiri know Kohryu's name?
    • Maybe Namatame just knows his mythology?
      • Even if he didn't, Izanami did. Kunino-sagiri is still a facet of Izanami.

    A Passive Audience 
  • How come the fact that people are watching the midnight channel other then the persona users not making a bigger spotlight in the plot? I mean come on, it would definantly explain some of the more questionable moments of weirdness censor like the weapons and armor. But the only hints we get is cut scene crowd noise and the occasional NPC gossip, you'd think they'd all be approached by reporters from the local town or whatever about the mysterious new t.v. series they supposedly star in but it never happens.
    • The Midnight Channel doesn't show the truth of what's going on, it shows what people want to see. Izanami said it herself, and Namatame appeared on the Midnight Channel when the IT wanted a reason to kill him. The "People see what's inside the TV!" stuff is almost purely gossip and those people probably only saw those "first episodes" the Shadows broadcast when their counterparts got kidnapped, and a few glimpses of violence. Remember how distorted Saki's image was when Seta first saw it? He didn't knew her well enough to actually recognize anything, while all the other programs were clear when he saw it. The same principle applies here.
  • Speaking of the above headscratcher, why are the IT members so concerned about what the Shadows are doing while they're inside it? No one would be able to watch the Midnight Channel then, it's not raining and it's not midnight.

    Brain Death-A-Go-Go 
  • How is it Nanako could make a full recovery after being dead for almost a full day? Brain damage should have set in by then.
    • The Power of Love. But really, why are you questioning the logic when she came back to life to begin with?
    • Not any less wall-banging than when Chidori was able to come back to life after being a corpse for quite some time in P3. Personae and the power of love seem to be quite effective at reversing death for some unexplained reason. Even though logically all of their brain cells should have turned to mush within minutes of their heart stopping.
    • Well, A) After she dies, Nametame is confronted almost IMMEDIATELY afterwards, and the whole incident shouldn't have taken more than 30 minutes, nowhere close to a day, leaving resuscitation within the realm of possibility (though I do like an earlier stated theory that her Arcana being Justice had something to do with it), and B):I got the impression that Teddie (knowingly or not) was somehow responsible for her recovery.
      • I think despite normal circumstances dictating that Nanako would've had her brain completely turned to mush within minutes, I do believe that her experience inside the TV world allowed her to partially awaken to a Persona to a degree. Certain dialogue in the Heaven dungeon and the implication that she vaguely remembers the experience afterwards suggests to me that she has faced herself and accepted herself in a sense, and as such combined with her experience in the TV world means that she essentially has the power of a Persona, albeit not fully developed due to her age, as the Shadow cannot fully develop until the person reaches puberty, according to Jungian psychology, hence why she cannot fully awaken to her Persona ability during the game. Now how does this play into her fully coming back to life after around 30 minutes to an hour? It's conceivable that since there is a very real possibility that she has a partially developed Persona power, that this is how she managed to survive in spite of being physically dead for several minutes to an hour. Despite being physically dead, her incomplete (albeit still present) Persona powers allowed her psyche to remain alive and conscious even in spite of her physical body being dead. Further tying into this is the fact that she mentions she heard everyone's voice telling her to hang in there, which gave her the strength to come back to life and keep trying to persevere in spite of the fog. This ties into the fact that Persona power is strengthened by bonds with other people, and for Nanako, this applies with her bonds with the Investigation Team giving her increased strength and allowing her to come back to life. It is established that those with the power of Persona have their mental and physical capabilities increased to near superhuman levels: as such, Nanako likely having a partially developed Persona ability allowed a miracle like this to logically happen, and as a result essentially defy physical death and come back to life without any damage thanks to her now enhanced mental and physical capabilities from it. So while Nanako may not technically be capable of using a Persona, it is strongly implied that she does indeed have the Persona ability and has also developed superhuman mental and physical capabilities that allowed her to come back to life in that particular instance. That being said, regarding her powers, it will take time until she becomes older and more mature/developed for her to fully utilize her potential Persona ability.

    Inaba, ? Number Of Days Without A Horrific Incident 
  • I have a problem with the continuity of how many times the murders incident happens in Inaba history. I'm playing it (again), and twice is it stated that this has never happened before (Teddie: I've lived here a long time and nothing like this has ever happened before)(Old man: I've lived here for 80 years and something this horrible has never happened before). And yet, later on, someone comments on how they remember this happening sometime ago. So, did time make them remember about past murders? The gym teacher states in-game that fog comes around ever 50 years, but I bring my point back to my old man example: 80 years and no incidents.
    • One thing I remember is, on the last day of the game when visiting the Shrine an old man mentions a 'Midnight Radio' when he was young. This probably indicates that Teddie didn't exist then, or the old man besides the Shrine simply forgot about fog 50 years ago. Presumably the Midnight Radio incident, if it did occur (perhaps 50 years ago, too...) as well as previous fog incidents, just weren't significant enough. The old man probably refers to the two murders.

    Adachi and Nanako Shipping 
  • Weird question, but, why is the Adachi/Nanako couple so popular? I haven't played the game but I am aware of the plot, but I'm still confused at the amount of fanart this pairing gets. Do they share a weird special relationship in the game or something?
    • There's no real basis for the pairing. But that's the case with many pairings. If a shipper likes how the two look together, that's all they need.
      • Shippers don't care about such things as pedophilia or statutory rape so long as the characters look hawt together, basically.
      • Regardless of the ages of the characters, I have a harder time believing that people ship Adachi with ANYBODY!!. Seriously the man's a nutcase that tried to rape two women, and threw them both into the tv with little if any regard for what might happen to them (well the first time he didn't know, but the second he definitely was aiming to kill). And then he continued his sick game using Namatame to kidnap others, all because he was bored, knowing they would die. And then you show up, foiling his plans (well technically you helped him by making Namatame believe he was saving people), but as you got closer to the truth, he makes a threat. Now when he was making that threat, only an idiot would believe he was referring to Doujima. No, he was definitely threatening Nanako. In the end he was just a pathetic loser. A disgusting shell of a man. And it would have been very difficult I believe for most to be as cordial as Yu was. But perhaps that was his own way of sticking it to Adachi. Killing him would have been a quick way to get revenge, but making the guy pay for his crimes through prison time has it's own catharsis. Adachi is suffering by being proven wrong, believing he could get away with what he did. So if Adachi was her age, or she was his, regardless, I wouldn't want Nanako shipped with a lunatic like him.
      • Evil Is Sexy, my friend.
      • It doesn't hurt that he's voiced by Johnny Yong Bosch.

    Vaguely Worded Warning Letters 
  • When Adachi sends the letter that says, "someone close will be put in and killed", did he actually mean for Nanako specifically to be thrown into the TV, or someone like Yosuke or Chie or some other Social Link? Because I don't think it was ever mentioned that he was the one to get Nanako kind of mentioned in the news, and in general it kind of felt like an empty threat.
    • It was an empty threat. Adachi has no control over the Midnight Channel so the most possible was to threaten the main characters. Of course Adachi could always just attack them.

    When Was Yosuke In Ninja School? 
  • Where in the world did Yosuke learn to duel wield? Seriously, how does a random high school kid get to be so skilled at what would have to take a LOT of practice?
    • Acceptable Breaks from Reality? In the previous game, almost everyone has some sort of excuse for being so good at fighting —Mitsuru, Akihiko, and Yukari were already into their chosen sport (fencing, boxing, archery) before bringing their skills into battle. Ken is shown training. Junpei has no idea how to handle a sword and it shows, wielding it like a baseball bat and standing with his weight back. But the MC is extremely skilled at all weapons, and no one bats an eye, nor at Persona 3 Portable's Female MC pulling insane acrobatics with a polearm. In 4, however only Kanji and Naoto should have any kind of battle proficiency at all, and yet the MC is noticeably skilled at wielding two-handed swords, Chie can pull backflips, bicycle kicks, and can use her knees as a defensive stance merely from watching Bruce Lee flicks (and without ever having a sparring partner until MC's arrival,) and Yukiko can toss paper fans with a skill and accuracy that circus knife throwers would envy. Yosuke's moderate skill at dual-wielding isn't all that out of place next to his friends' (similarly unexplained) prowess.
      • Or maybe they just got good while constantly fighting shadows over the cause of the whole year? It's not that they just instantly got good at fighting the moment their Personae awakened. Statistically Speaking they can barely even fight in the beginning without their Personae. This is properly just a minor case of Gameplay and Story Segregation because they use the same attack animation during the whole game.
      • Actually, I think it is *because* of his Persona that he can do it. Think about it, Yosuke only fights after awakening his Persona. Who is his Persona? Jiraya, arguibly the most famous Ninja of myth, or second most, after Hattori Hanzou. I think Yosuke's sudden Ninja powers are a result of him channeling Jiraya passively.

    Yosuke, Stop Bringing Strange Young Boys Home 
  • Speaking of Yosuke, what in the world did he say to his parents that would convince them to let a complete stranger move into their home and start sharing a room with their son?
    • "Hey dad, meet Ted. He's a foreign exchange student and the school has nowhere to put him, so I was wondering if he could stay. Look, he even has his own costume and offered to work as a mascot at the store in exchange for room and board. Pretty cool, huh?"
      • Except that Teddie never has a uniform, only goes to the school for the pagent and one phone call to the school asking for details on the situation would shoot that story to bits. Nevermind that hiring someone to work for room and board like that would likely be a major violation of labor laws. The kind that could get Yosuke's dad fired or maybe even Junes shut down given that Japan is on a big kick against illegal workers these days.
      • Teddie working as a mascot at Junes is canon, both in this game and in P4 Arena. The latter game mentions it very explicitly, even. And who cares if he has a uniform or goes to school? The "exchange student" thing was just something I came up with on the spur of the moment as something Yosuke could use as an excuse. There's dozens of things Yosuke could say in that vein.
      • If you're going "Who cares?" I think you're missing the point of Headscrathers. But in any case, by letting some guy with no ID work at Junes Yosuke's dad is almost certainly in violation of Junes rules and Japanese labor laws. Which again raises the question of just what in the heck Yosuke told his dad that would convince him to both take Teddie in *and* violate the law in such a way that he could ruin his career.
      • I didn't say "Who cares?" to the headscratcher, I said "Who cares?" to your further nitpicking of an off-the-cuff justification I, not the game, came up with. If you're unwilling to accept a generic justification (read: "suspension of disbelief") from a fan when no explicit justification exists in the game (other than Teddie suddenly working at Junes and earning wages for no discernible reason) then there's no other answer to give.
    • It's possible that Mr. and Mrs. Hanamura are just sort of lax about this type of thing. Maybe Yosuke's done it before. We don't really learn much about his home life other than what escapades he and Teddie get into.
      • Keep in mind that the first time Teddie exited the TV world and made foot into the real world, he wound up in Junes first and was wandering around the department store for quite some time. Mr. Hanamura is the manager of Junes, and Teddie's sudden appearance in his store caught the attention of a lot of the staff members, which means that Mr. Hanamura likely knew about Teddie already when Yosuke brought him in. All Yosuke likely needed to do when bringing Teddie home was explain that Teddie is the guy in the bear suit who has been wandering around Junes recently. Mr. Hanamura was probably fully aware that Teddie wasn't going to leave his department store anytime soon and likely had no where else to go, so he was open to allowing him in the Hanamura household since Teddie was hanging around Junes for a day or two at that point, and the staff were all aware of Teddie's presence in the store since it caused such a commotion.

    Naoto's Secret Identity 
  • How the heck is Naoto being a girl a secret? It's established that she's something of a celebrity. Give the way the media and creepy fans dig through famous people's lives it makes no sense that her being female could be kept under wraps. This Troper has lived in Japan and all the public records I ever had to fill out asked for gender. At the very least it would be on her birth certificate.
    • I interpreted it as kinda an inverse of Everybody Knew Already. No one ever really bothered looking it up or, you know, asking for clarification. In universe her "act" as a boy is supposed to be pretty non-transparent, so it probably just never occurred to anyone.
      • Never ocurred to anyone? She is famous, i still can't believe she never met any paparazzi. Heck, it's inhumanly possible for her to hide it for so many years. I mean, she is a student right? She couldn't have faked her identity, that would be a crime. And even if the teachers and the principal knew she was a girl and agreed to keep her secret, there is no way she could hide from the students, there is physical education and she would have to switch uniforms surrounded by dozens of guys. And we know the Police Are Useless but Naoto is a GIRL. She has to use the GIRLS' restroom. Does waits the until she goes home or does she, conveniently, never met anyone while using the boy's/girl's restoom?
      • Paparazzi may hound celebrities, but they may be somewhat reluctant to do so when the celebrity in question makes a habit of being better at detective work than the cops, and has a grandfather that's been doing this for decades already. I'm willing to bet that she (or he) can probably blackmail them better than they can blackmail her if push comes to shove, and they may have already guessed this or had it shoved down their throats already. As for the bathroom thing, men's rooms do have stalls. Just use them when you can't hold it in and no one is the wiser.

    Unfortunate Implications? 
  • In a lot of the pages talking about how the party deals with the more controversial members and their issues, Kanji and Naoto, there are a lot of tropes about how they handle it kinda offensively. Particularly in instances where Yosuke acts all homophobic, or when Yukiko and Chie justify that of course Naoto would be scared because she's a girl. Now I'm not claiming that these aren't the most enlightened view points, but I've always been of the mind set that what a character feels isn't what the creators feel. So it's listed as unfortunate implications under the idea that they're advocating that mind set, but that isn't true, to me at least. I don't know how close you are to your memories of high school, but kids that age aren't the most politically correct is all I'm saying, and you can't tell me in an era where the saying "no homo" is commonly accepted that it's Yosuke's behavior on the camping trip is out of the norm, or that someone with the kind of upbringing and social beliefs that Yukiko has wouldn't say something like that. Not the most progressive mind sets from our characters, but they're at an age and in an environment where it's natural they'd feel those ways. My problem is when people see that and turn around and say the show/game itself is homophobic or sexist, when it's just that the characters in it are of those implied mindsets, in a way that's usually played for laughs I remind you.
    • That it's always played for laughs is a part of the problem.
    • There is the disclaimer that "the views expressed in this game do not necessarily reflect those of Atlas or its employees". You're right in that the attitude is uncomfortably close to the real life prejudices that teenagers are likely to have at that age. You can also feel that it was inappropriate for the game to portray them in that fashion for the sake of realism, instead of taking a more sensitive and progressive approach. There's no objectively correct answer to this.
    • I think both the tropers above are correct and would like to add my two cents; this is a pretty complicated topic, but I think that the main problem is not so much in the presence of these kind of prejudices and viewpoints in itself but how the game handles them. I love the whole game and it's cast sincerely, Yosuke included, but his behavior in the tent and treatment of Kanji in general, his chauvinistic tendencies towards women, and Naoto getting told things like "of course she was scared if she's a girl" and "you've got balls for a girl" is stuff that people of any non-straight sexuality and women actually have to deal with in real life. The problem with what Yosuke does specifically is that it's, yes always played for humor, that these experiences that are far less funny and seriously difficult and unpleasant when you actually deal with them are portrayed them as humorous and comical, which is incredibly trivializing of them. With regards to Naoto, she doesn't have the problem of the sexism she deals with being played for laughs, but during the incidents in question, Yukiko, Chie and Yosuke's comments aren't portrayed as a 'they're teenagers who internalized these prejudices and it's unfortunate but inevitable that they'd have them' kind of thing, but rather as perfectly acceptable viewpoints for them to have and perfectly alright comments of them to make. And while the majority of Naoto's social link isn't too bad in my opinion, the protagonist is given an option to engage in some chauvinistic acts himself in his treatment of her ("I gotta help, you're a girl", specifically, and her romantic path practically forces you to do along its many other problems). So basically I agree a lot of the prejudices are realistic and it would make perfect sense for them to make, but the way they're portrayed and treated was the problem because they weren't treated as predjuices and the problematic viewpoints they are, and I think the game was rather insensitive in its portrayal during these particular parts. I don't think that it makes the game sexist or homophobic or that the writers and Atlus are terrible, horrible people, but still.
    • It doesn't really come off as because "you're a girl", more because "you're my friend." and on the romantic path, is it that bad to gout out of your way for the girl you've fallen for?
    • Yukiko's saying that Naoto would be scared because she's a girl is ranked third on her list of justifications, and an afterthought after the most relevant fact- that no one, not even Kanji, who singlehandedly beat up a biker gang, could resist the kidnapper.
    • Say what you want about the other "problematic" issues, such as moments of homophobia and girl-on-guy abuse being played up for laughs (this troper personally believes they're non-issues, but appreciates that people's opinions will vary). I don't want to make this too controversial of a topic here, but I'm putting my foot down when it comes to the so-called "sexist" comments. Thinking that someone might be scared because they're a girl is a standard, although not necessarily correct to make, assumption based on biological differences in how men and women react to situations. In general, although not by rule of thumb, girls are more emotionally timid. That's just a fact. Gender being listed as a reason why a particular reason felt scared in a dangerous situation, especially when it's not even the primarily focus when it comes to the possible reasons as the above troper pointed out, is, I'm sorry to say, particularly sensible. It's a hard fact to deal with, but it's a fact. It's when you begin making rash generalisations that you consider totally iron cast that it becomes an actual sexist problem (the difference between listing gender as a factor in someone's fear level, and saying "Well of course she's scared, she's a girl" or "all girls are scardy-pants so that's why she was sacred", for example). It's also, in my opinion, not sexist for men to act generally kind to females due to the fact that they're females. That's perfectly ordinarily behavior, so long as it does not become downright patronising. There is a difference between feeling like you have a duty as a man to protect your girlfriend, or any female figure who's important to you, and patronising a woman because of her gender. I'm sorry, but very few of the "sexist" moments in Persona 4 fall into actual sexism, not unless you purposefully twist the meaning of the word, or the meaning of what the game itself presents. Probably the only one I can think of that that could be seen as properly "problematic" is the part where they said "of course she's scared, she's a girl". But this was a throwaway observation which is fairly quickly ignored. At most you could complain that they should've worded the remarks differently, maybe instead of them saying she was sacred due to being a girl, they factor her being a girl into why she was scared. As I previously stated, these seems the same but it's a hugely important distinction between someone being genuinely and undeniably sexist, and someone making a, still possibly misguided guess based on gender average which may or may not be seen as sexist depending on your opinion.

    Would he really have had it in him? 
  • So Adachi tries to rape the reporter until he accidentally pushes her in the TV. Now, Adachi seems to be something of a hedonist (and maybe a nihilist), definitely a misogynist, and a murderer, but I don't know if it makes sense with the rest of his actions that he would be a rapist. Forcing yourself on someone is something that requires a lot of mental commitment and until he got his powers I got the impression Adachi was a kind of a cowardly asshole; he was a bad person, but he wouldn't do anything that would get him in trouble if he could help it. If he had the means to rape while getting away with it that'd be one thing, but what was he gonna do after she would have testified? Did he think that through at all or just hold onto the Villain Ball and lucked out with the TV?
    • Essentially your question is, "Did Adachi premeditate the rape?" The answer is no, it was done in the heat of the moment. (Also, I question where you get the impression that Adachi was cowardly before he got his powers, considering that very little is shown of him before that time.)
      • He only engaged in his crazy evil murder schemes when he had the powers to get away with it. It's likely he harbored this kind of intense hate for years but never wanted to risk anything. He's even called out on this before his fight when he basically says he hates his life but he'd rather have everyone else have the same feelings as him than deal with his problems on his own (apparently, one of those solutions being suicide).
    • He did have the means to get away with it. It's practically impossible to convict a police officer of rape, after all.
      • I get why people assume rape was his intention, but he only ever says he wants to scare her. Remember, they were in the inn’s lobby. Anyone could and likely would have walked in at any time.

    Persona X Detective: Naoto's place in canon 
  • How was the novel in question bad, okay, Touko expy is not something to be keen on, and the Ms. Fanservice treatment Naoto is getting could be funny, but how are stuff like a male Anti-Shadow weapon bad?
    • I think it's more because said spoiler is a previous generation to Aigis but somehow superior to her. Then again I haven't read it.
      • Previous generations being superior is canon. In Persona 4 Arena, 5th Generation Anti-Shadow Weapon Labrys is one of the best they've ever made, but after she "went berserk" and had to be sealed away, they probably scaled back the strength of later generations (like Aigis, who is of the seventh generation) so they could more easily control them.

    The people on the Midnight Channel 
  • Assuming that the person on the Midnight Channel is who the people of Inaba collectively want to know more about (at some points they indicate that it's who the person watching it wants to know more about, but that makes less sense), does this mean most people in Inaba watch the exact same news show at the exact same time every night and home in on the exact same one person who was on TV out of the hundreds that are on TV every month(or in the case of Nanako, someone who is just mentioned on TV, and not even by name)? It's a small town, but it's not a tiny village where everyone knows each other. Also, why does Adachi never appear on it? After the first murder and certainly after the second, the talk of the town is the double murder that just happened, not the fact that the local inn is being temporarily run by a teenager. And then there's the whole genius elementary school student rumor that comes out of nowhere late in the game and starts before Nanako is mentioned on TV.
    • As stated, the Midnight Channel doesn't appear the same to everyone, it shows what the person wants to see. It's mentioned that not all of the investigation team saw the same thing on the Midnight Channel, Namatame always saw his target clearly from the get-go, and the investigation team is looking for the victims in the TV, not whose throwing them in there. You can also blame the real Big Bad for Adachi not showing up since he is one of her chosen three. Her point with the midnight channel and the fog is that humans prefer an interesting lie to the truth; people didn't want to see the real murderer, they wanted to see something interesting.

    Meta Questions and Everything Else 
  • Why is everything Persona 4-related called "Persona 4: The Animation"? (At least on TV Tropes.)
    • Why not? The anime was already confirmed to be canon. That means canon Yu is a pimp and he never maxed out his social links. That why none of his friends have an ultimate persona for the arena.
    • To differentiate everything associated with Persona 4 (Arena, Golden, The Animation) from everything associated with Persona 3 (FES, Portable, The Movie)

    The "Ghost" Lady in the Shrine at Night 
  • Who or what is the woman that appears at night in the shrine? Is she a run-of-the-mill ghost? Perhaps a bakeneko? The human form of Fox (that is suspiciously absent at night, when you can see the woman)? Or is she really just an ordinary woman with poor judgement and a large gem collection?
    • There's really no evidence to suggest either of them. She might be a ghost, or she might just have some odd tastes in clothing. I personally like to interpret as her being a ghost, but she might not be.

    Naoto's Family 
  • What on earth was Grandpa Shirogane doing while his grandchild was going through a gender identity crisis? He seems pretty aware of what Naoto was going through when you learn about him and Yamagishi during her social link; did he never try and dissuade Naoto from extreme measures like crossdressing, passing as male and contemplating reassignment surgery? It's one thing to be concerned when Naoto tries too hard to act mature and forgets her passion for crime-solving, but it's another thing entirely when Naoto's acting and presenting completely as another gender and has the thought of a permanent change on her mind.
    • Does her grandfather have any reason to be concerned about what she is doing? The entire issue with Naoto wanting to come off as male was only a problem because Naoto herself wasn't happy with it. If it was what she wanted to come off as, or really wanted to be like, why would Grandpa Shirogane have any reason to suspect anything is off? Unless Naoto sat down and explained this to him, he really has no reasonable reason to think she has any problem with the way she is acting.
  • For that matter Naoto says that both of her parents were renowned detectives after her Shadow battle; granted they both died when Naoto was young and Naoto's mother would've had the support of her husband and father, but why did a prominent female detective in Naoto's family have such a non-existent effect on Naoto's gender issues in the present, either in acting as a role model for Naoto or serving as an example of how badly women face sexism in the workplace? (to say nothing of Naoto's non-reaction to meeting the influential and obviously respected Mitsuru during the events of Arena.) Unless I've missed something and Naoto actually Has Two Daddies
    • Maybe sexism directed at Naoto's mother is the reason why Naoto presents as male; she's seen how female detectives are treated, so she pretends to be a boy to avoid that.
    • That's exactly what I'm taking issue with; if Naoto's mother had faced sexism and that was one of the core reasons for Naoto presenting as male then why was that never brought up in the game at all, either in Naoto's dungeon or in her social link? It strikes me as very lazy writing to go 'I presented as male because it's incredibly difficult for women to be taken seriously in my line of work. Oh, also my mother was a detective too but that's not important.'
      • Remember that a lot—if not all—of Naoto's childhood was spent reading detective novels, which tend to have awesome, hard-boiled male protagonists. This has given her a skewed vision of what "awesome hard-boiled" detectives are supposed to be. Her gender doesn't fit her ideal image of a detective. She's afraid that her gender, as well as her age, would give those above her a reason to look down on her and shun her, they wouldn't need her anymore, and she'd no longer have a chance of becoming the detective she wants to be. Her concerns on the matter are entirely based upon her own self-perception, and may not have anything to do with her parents.

    "Okay Leader, we can let this person die even though I'm worried about them." 
  • So the longer a victim stays in the TV world, and the closer it gets to the deadline, your party members get more worried and remind you more often to save them. Ideally, you would do it then (or earlier). But let's say you screw up and just let the fog come and leave the victim for dead. Your party members were worried sick this whole time, why didn't Yosuke or someone give MC an intervention on the last available day, "Dude, we have to save them today." They seemed to have a good grasp of the weather forecasts and how accurate they were. I know they trust the MC to be their leader, and the player would ideally get things done, and it gives the player responsibility, but I just think that the Investigation Team would be more than just passively insistent as the deadline approaches.
    • Gameplay and Story Segregation. Ideally you should, and the gang probably would, save them right away, but you the player can bugger around as you like until the next time the rain rolls in just in case there's something you really want to do that day or whatever.
    • If you go to bed when the time's almost up, you might get a phone call demanding that you go to the TV World, which happened to me late in December (since the game skips ahead after you clear Magatsu Inaba, this was the only dungeon I didn't do at the first opportunity).

    "About Izanami's plans." 
  • So Izanami wanted to turn everyone into shadows because Adachi, who represented emptiness, had the greatest effect on the town. What would she have done if she had instead chosen Namatame (despair) or the protagonist (hope)?
    • I kinda doubt her actions would have changed. If you know the character from Japanese mythology (her origin story is given at one point in the game), she's a real nasty bitch who basically wants everyone to suffer and/or die.
    • Well she did at least back off when "hope" won in the (true) end, so she's not totally inflexible.

    "King Moron" Moroka 
  • How the hell did this guy still have a teaching license before he was finally killed? All he ever did for the most part was talk down to his students (even calling the protagonist a "loser from the city" right in front of the whole class) and treat them like a bunch of delinquents just because they weren't chaste, little children who valued their schoolwork over their lives outside the classroom. He even accused the protagonist of being abusive towards women! Is this just some sort of problem with the Japanese school system (at least for schools in more rural areas) that they don't care if the teacher is a total asshole or creep towards their students so long as said students get good grades under their teachings?
    • Considering that they also have Ms. "Sexual-Harassement-Lawsuit-waiting-to-happen" Kashiwagi, and the P.E. Teacher also does English there must be a shortage on teachers, the others are kind of weird, but don't seem to be bad at their jobs. And a couple comments after he died show that King Moron wasn't so bad, and had a few Pet the Dog moments but any semblance of that isn't shown and falls into Informed Attribute, and he apparently had a few harsh words with Mitsuo, so he isn't very liked in general. Honestly, I'm surprised any student pays attention, with a guy like that, I'd just pick a random book to read and put some earphones during his lectures.
    • Rule of Funny, probably.

    Did Adachi kinda have a point? 
  • Okay, hear me out. Adachi is unambiguously a murderous hypocrite who chose to give up on conventional life because he hit a rough patch, but as I was watching the final confrontation between him and the Investigation Team, I couldn't help but feel like some of the things he was getting at weren't really wrong, they were just going over everyone's heads. Adachi's driving force seems to be the idea that compliance and contentment within a society aren't worthwhile since everyone dies eventually, and he hates that some people get what they want more easily than others because they do comply, even though it won't amount to anything once they're dead. This obviously clashes with the kids' viewpoint about uncovering the truth behind situations, not necessarily to change them, but moreso to change themselves so that they can coexist with it, and make the most of it. This is a major instance of idealism versus realism/cynicism in itself, but as Adachi devolves further into madness before the fight, I couldn't help but feel like the kids' arguments against him were... flimsy. Adachi basically wants to change the world because he (thinks he) has the power to do it, and while the team wants to stop him because they believe he shouldn't have the power to do that, in the end they pretty much do the same thing because they stop him not breaking him by talking, but by overpowering him by teaming up against him. In other words, the reason they beat Adachi was more or less for the exact reason why he hates human society; because they got what they wanted by joining together, regardless of how sound their logic actually was. Imagine if the whole plot had focused around just one of the kids trying to solve the mystery; would they have even made it this far? And heck, right before the fight starts, they don't even really try to disprove any of the things Adachi says; they just insist that it's BS and their way's better! And Adachi even Lampshades it! True, Adachi doesn't really have any room to speak for all of humanity either (and Izanami was really stupid for thinking he would), but really, neither do the kids. The only real reason the plot leans towards their viewpoint is because the plot focuses on them, not necessarily because they're right. And if the climactic battle ultimately comes down to just denying everything your opponent says until they crack and the conflict becomes physical, then the only real moral superiority the team has over Adachi is that he's a manipulative murderer & harasser, and they aren't. Everything else just kinda seems justified by "we're stronger than you".
    • That's Japanese society in a nutshell. The Complainer Is Always Wrong. From what I've read, before meeting the west, the Japanese couldn't even fathom an idea like "Tyranny of the Majority". Basically, the group was always more important than the individual. Also, you should check out the Debate and Switch entry on the main Persona 4 page.
      • Refer to the Japanese proverb "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down."
    • Adachi also argues that the only way to get ahead or be able to make something of your life is to be born with talent; otherwise you're worthless, and you can only accept or lie to yourself about that. As we see through the events of the game, and upon learning the true extent of everything that's been going on, this really is BS. Neither he nor the MC nor even Namatame were born with their own talent, instead having it bestowed upon them by an outside force, but an even more significant case is of the MC's partners; none of them were Touched by Vorlons, instead only gaining their power through the same kind of hard work and introspection that Adachi says is useless. Granted, the kids could've also raised this point and made better arguments in general, but Adachi's arguments don't hold too much water either.
      • This is true, but the party doesn't seem to realize exactly how Adachi, Yu or Namatame got their powers until after they learn about Izanami's existence and plan.
    • Rise actually says Adachi isn't completely wrong when he asks whether the Investigation Team is fighting for justice or for their own fulfillment, even if she adds that what he did is still unforgivable. As for the rest, Adachi isn't interested in changing anything- perhaps all he's experienced has embittered him, but he's mainly using that as an excuse to murder two people, manipulate a third party into kidnapping others, and watch as the world's enveloped in fog. Since the party have accepted their flaws and started working to overcome them, it's natural that they'd find what he's doing to be completely unacceptable and nonsensical.
    • Short answer: Yes, Adachi had a point, but it doesn't matter. He still killed innocent people and he has to answer for that.
      • Still doesn't explain why that one scene before the fight handled it like crap. Yukiko's line about how Adachi should expect people to not understand him if he is scared to die while still hating being alive is especially bad. Since this is something a lot of people genuinely feel, and having it slapped away in a single line by her, as though she's in the right for saying it, can be downright toxic.
      • Yukiko is talking in the context of Adachi a) murdering two people and sowing chaos in general and b) forcing his nihilism on the rest of the world with the whole "make everyone into a Shadow" thing. She's saying it makes no sense as a motivation for what he's trying to do. This is evident by her next line, which explains what SHE thinks his actual motivation: "You're just throwing a tantrum like a kid who can't have his way!" That line would be a non-sequitur if her last line was meant more generally.
    • Whether the overt "allegory", for lack of a better wording, that the entire game was trying to put across regarding Adachi's stance is "BS" or not is pretty subjective. Adachi's entire point, when applied to our real world, basically boils down to the fact that people who are born with, say, genetically gifted good looks, or the genetic ability to sing, are going to have a far more easy, blissful life then those who aren't. This in itself is vaguely subjective, but let's face it, ignoring the entirely subjective and side to "being born with privilege" (sex/gender, race, ect.) it isn't that subjective when it comes to other points such as physical attractiveness. There is a great deal of objectivity in the fact that genetics, something you have no control over at birth, will play a part in how much of a head start you have in your life. Yet people always side-step this by implying that it doesn't matter because those without this can work hard to make up that head start, and even get ahead of them. The game's stance, from the villain's perspective is basically that this is BS logic. It's like giving someone a head start in a foot race, and then telling the other runners that it's fine because they still have a chance at making the distance up and ultimately winning. From Adachi's perspective it just doesn't make sense, and yes, in this troper's opinion he definitely has at least somewhat of a point. At the very least, you can see where he's coming from. The problem, as has been pointed out, is not whether he is right or wrong, but how he took advantage this to commit evil acts. He's a total hypocrite who's using his stance to throw a childish tantrum, but at his bare minimum he does have a point. In my opinion, I don't think the game is trying to specifically push Adachi's stance out as entirely wrong, nor is it trying to paint the Investigation Team as entire in the right either (as was discussed above). There's a number of times across all Persona 4 media where they approach it with a lot of objectivity and contemplate that, yes, he may have a point.
      • Incidentally, not that I'm the first to point this out by a long shot but, it's interesting to note that most of the Investigation Team is made up of people who's Adachi's ideological opinions appose, yet whom all faced personal struggles and overcame a lot of hard work: Yosuke is famous around town for being the son of a store manager (born into a successful family, Yukiko is going to inherit her family's famous inn and is known for being fairly good looking, Rise's attractive and is obviously a good singer (genetics), Naoto was born into a family of detectives, ect, ect. The main clash of ideals here comes between hard work, and "gifts" at birth. How much of a person's success does one or the other actually determine? It's a pretty subjective point, but the fact that there's at least some head start given to certain people at their births is not really that subjective in itself, it's kind of a fact of life. It's more about how much that actually matters in the long run. Plus the game tries to show that having a "head start", or a mandatory ticket to success without choice, isn't always a good thing. Such as Yukiko, who has an easy route to a fairly successful life by inheriting her family inn, but she doesn't want that, and that causes issues for her.
    • Adachi has a point in that some people are dealt a better hand than others. That's a fact of life. Where he completely loses any sort of sympathy is that instead of playing his hand and making something with it, he acts as if now he's "owed" something. Life isn't "fair", and there is a lot of effort going into making it "fairer" for everyone; but one can't just sit there and demand "someone needs to make it fair, or I'll kill people".
    • Adachi isn't looking for some reformation of society and his "points" are incredibly vague at best. He doesn't really care about anything he's saying for the world as a whole. He only cares about how he himself isn't getting what he think's he's owed. He could have changed his life in any of a thousand ways, but chose to victimize others solely to get a cheap power high. Whatever point he may have is irrelevant because he's only using it to hide from his personal responsibility for murder. He couldn't care less about some sense of cosmic "fairness," he just wants to rant that he has the right to do whatever he wants because his life didn't turn out perfect. Nobody matters to Adachi besides Adachi. The Investigation Team was completely right to disregard his ranting and treat him like the scum he is. Context is very important in these situations: this is not a calm, reasoned debate on the human condition, but a battle to the death between a criminal desperate to avoid responsibility for his actions and some kids who have all suffered because of him.
      • The framing by the game of any points that Adachi does actually touch upon as his way of "whining" is itself the problem, though. Don't get me wrong, you're 100% correct here. But the issue I think a lot of people have is that beneath all of Adachi's personal whining, there is a valid point that the game touches upon but all but fails to look into any deeper, one that a lot of real people relate to; particularly people within Japanese society. And to them, it feels like a slap in the face for the game to frame it all through Adachi's self-centered, hallow nonsense, and avoid looking at it with any more depth specifically because it's Adachi saying it and he's clearly not saying it for positive reasons. In my opinion, Persona 4 would've been strengthened as a story if they had explored these points a little deeper. The entire problem is the context framing in the first place. There's no attempt to actually go beyond the surface level "black-and-white" context of "Adachi, the heartless selfish psycho looking for excuses" vs. "the people who got hurt because of him".

    What the hell, Teddie? 
  • Teddie knew people were being thrown into the TV before the Investigation Team showed up, he clearly had the means to find them (because he lead the IT straight to Saki's liquor store, if nothing else), and he has the power to create an exit from the TV world. So why didn't Teddie just go to the victims and give them an exit?
    • Because, at the time, Teddie was too scared of the possibility of getting attacked by Shadows when he has no way of fighting back against them.

    Namatame Fails at math 
  • Ok, this might seem weird, but it kinda stuck out to me. When you're talking with Namatame in the Hospital, he says that he put three people into the midnight channel. To me, this makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER, as you rescue FOUR people that got put in. Yukiko, Kanji, Rise and Naoto. Who put the other person in? Adachi?
    • He most likely also threw Naoto in the TV as well, and from Naoto's deductions during her kidnapping, she was most definitely kidnapped by Namatame. However, despite this, Naoto's kidnapping was overlooked during the script writing, as this is evident not only in Namatame's testimony to the group, but also in his diary, as Naoto's name is surprisingly absent from Namatame's diary. So yeah, this is likely an error in the script as the script writers seemingly overlooked what happened to Naoto, as she isn't mentioned in Namatame's diary and Namatame does not imply that he kidnapped her, though Naoto's testimony upon joining the Investigation Team implied that he did.

    Romancing the girls and storyline 
So, with each female social link (excluding Nanako and Eri), you have a chance to start a romance with each girl and can carry one out with each girl without anybody finding out. Even with the whole Gameplay and Story Segregation thing, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Chie and Yukiko are best friends and they've been shown having conversations alone; at some point, you'd think one of them would mention they're dating the Protagonist. Not to mention Yumi, Ai, Ayane, and the Investigation Team girls all go to the same school and many students seem to love gossip; you'd think at some point, it would get around that the Protagonist is playing the field, but the only mention of it that ever happens is a few throwaway lines between Chie and Yukiko if they're both on your team during a mission.
  • This actually gets addressed in Golden. During the Valentine's Day event, the player is punished for this exact scenario. You can only choose one girl and you leave the others devastated at what a cheating bastard you are. What makes things worse it that it's all fully voice acted and some of the girls are very standoffish about the whole ordeal.
  • It's strongly implied that the protagonist and his girlfriend(s) are keeping their relationship secret. If you talk to one girl in a dungeon, she'll blush and act embarrassed, while the other party member misinterprets her actions.

    Shadow Teddie's Arcana 
You'll notice that all the party members' Shadows have Arcanas that are the same as the resulting Persona. So why does Teddie, whose Persona is of The Star Arcana, have a Shadow that's shown to have The Moon as its in-game Arcana if you use Analysis on it in battle?
  • Either this was a goof, or it's a hint that "Shadow Teddie" is more than just Teddie's hidden thoughts.
  • Moon upright is fear and illusion, both of which Teddie was facing hard at the end of Rise's dungeon. However, Reversed Star can also depict the lack of faith and despair he was also facing, so the previous poster isn't entirely wrong either.

    Yu calls his uncle by his last name? 
  • Why does Yu refer to his uncle as "Dojima-san," (or "Dojima" in a few dialogue choices while speaking with Adachi, like in the Mitsuo investigation, the start of the Jester Social Link and when Jester transforms into Hunger) like virtually the entire rest of the cast besides Nanako does? Shouldn't he call Dojima "Uncle"?
    • Probably because "uncle" in Japanese is "oji-san", which sounds almost the same as "ojii-san" meaning "granpa/old man". Same deal with many anime series where women don't like to be called "aunt"/"oba-san" by their nephews/nieces because it's too phonetically similar to "grandma"/"obaa-san".
    • Maybe not so much that per se, but may also further indicate how Yu's mother (and by extension, himself at the start of the story) aren't all that close to his uncle. Otherwise, Uncle would probably be fine being called as such, because he knows it's true - he *is* Yu's uncle.

    How much did Izanami manipulate events? 
  • How much (if at all) did Izanami manipulate events after choosing the human representatives of Emptiness, Despair and Hope? Adachi would never have realized the power he had (and thus nothing at all would have happened) without a TV being conventionally placed so that Mayumi would fall in when he pushed her. The main character wouldn't have gotten involved without the third victim being a classmate/friend of his. Yosuke likely wouldn't have confronted his shadow without the second victim being Saki. And none of the protagonists would have stood a chance of winning without Teddy being there to give them their glasses and to send them back out of the TV world. Was it all just luck and coincidence?
    • My money's on "not at all." All she did was give the power to three strangers from out of town, then sat back and watched events unfold.

    Teddie in December 
  • From the Investigation Team's point of view, Teddie just up and vanishes into thin air after Nanako's "death". Why do they not think that's suspicious? He even gets a slightly different text from your teammates if you try to pick him as the culprit, basically saying that he's more likely than the others to be it. But the others never seem to think his disappearance happened in rather sketchy circumstances.
    • If you select Teddie as the culprit, it says "You can't rule it entirely out, but the odds are very low when you consider all of the information. More than anything else, he is your friend who helped you reach this far in the mystery." Basically, there's little reason for you to suspect Teddie as the culprit, all things considered.

    Yu's Hometown 
  • Is it ever said where Yu is actually from? If so, where is that?
    • It's not ever outright stated but it's been heavily implied in most adaptations of Persona 4 that Yu has lived a very nomadic lifestyle, since his parents are incredibly busy and travel a lot for their work, implying they are business people. The implication is that Yu had to move around a lot due to his parents' jobs and transfer schools a lot too, meaning he never really stayed in any one place for more than two or three years at most, and has never truly settled in any one place. He's likely spent most of his life living in urban areas, however, and Inaba is implied to be his first experience with a small town experience, similar to Yosuke. With that being said however, his hometown is unknown and it's also implied his parents' work have forced him to live as a nomad.

    Just how ridiculously physically strong is Namatame? 
  • Namatame expresses his desire to "save" people he has seen on the Midnight channel. He has seen Yukiko, Kanji and Rise there and subsequently threw them into the TV World. While how he did it with Yukiko and Rise is understandable, just how the hell did he managed that with Kanji? In his backstory Kanji fought off an entire biker gang singlehandedly, and I'm supposed to believe that he couldn't punch out ONE depressed pencil-pusher?
    • It's not just a matter of sheer physical strength but also a matter of clever strategic maneuvers to ensure that he couldn't resist. Based on Naoto's account, she described that she was grabbed roughly from behind and had her mouth and nose covered with something, essentially incapacitating her, then carried into the TV. The same thing likely happened with Kanji: Namatame being a deliveryman essentially would've led Kanji to drop his guard, and Namatame likely took advantage of that and grabbed him from behind when he wasn't looking, and also used whatever kind of cloth he had to cover his face to eventually lead him to pass out, making it an easy for Namatame to drag him into the TV world. Him being a deliveryman is an especially big factor that made sure to drop Kanji's guard, as a deliveryman is perceived as harmless.
    • It's also possible that Adachi was involved in some capacity. After all, Adachi mentioned that he watched Namatame from the sides and "gave a little nudge" every now and then. Given how unscrupulous Adachi turned out to be during his interactions with Ryotaro and the Investigation Team, the "little nudge" could be anything from "giving Namatame tips how to subdue Kanji and/or Naoto" to "provide an extra pair of hands to throw Kanji (and maybe other too) into the TV". After all, he is a frontline police officer, therefore he would have the knowledge and the skills to take down civilians, and he wouldn't be seen as suspicious either.

    Why is Izanami in the game at all? 
  • What is Izanami's point in the game, in a narrative sense? She comes out of nowhere at the end, there's very little foreshadowing, it seems like she was only put at the end to give the game an excuse to fight a god as the final boss, as is Persona tradition. What was her involvement in the plot besides splitting her power to Yu, Adachi and Namatame?
    • “What was Izanami’s involvement in the story besides being the reason Adachi was even able to commit the bizarre murders that allowed the plot to begin”. Is that what you’re asking?
    • Sort of, actually. I had been thinking about it, and at least with Nyx and Yaldabaoth, the villain was a somewhat-active presence in the background and was truly spying on the protagonists as they made their moves. With Izanami, nothing about her gets even glanced at until the very end of the game. Yomotsu Hirasaka only becomes a thing at the end, Izanami's name is only mentioned in classes as far as I recall. Is Izanami only in the game because, for lack of a better term, "the script said so"? Like, is there a reason besides just the plot for her to be the main antagonist?

    So why does Yosuke wears his headphones in battle anyway? 
  • It would kind of difficult for him to battle if he can't hear warnings or someone calling out to him to heal them. Also they don't look very sturdy.
    • There are two common types of headphone: sound-playing and noise-cancelling. His are probably either both or the latter. It's probable he uses them in Junes in order to hear people but not be overwhelmed by random noises. It could also be a comfort thing; I wear my headphones nearly 24/7 and feel a bit naked without them.

    Yosuke and Chie's stat distributions 
  • According to the wiki, Yosuke ends up with higher Strength than Chie, who ends up with better Agility. So why is it that in Persona 4: Arena, Persona 4: Arena Ultimax, and BlazBlue: Cross Tag Battle, Yosuke ends up as a Death of a Thousand Cuts Fragile Speedster while Chie is a Glass Cannon with merely decent speed?
  • Their stats in Arena are how they're meant to be, and usually where their stats should end up in a typical playthrough of Persona 4, but stat growths are inherently RNG based and their stats are pretty close so it could end up the other way around if the RNG decides it to be so.

    The bear in the schoolroom... 
In Persona 4 Golden (not sure if it's also true in the original Persona 4), besides Teddie coming to school for the crossdressing competition, there are also at least a few days where you can talk to him in his human form sitting at one of the school desks in the classroom. How is it that nobody on campus noticed the presence of an unregistered student in class?
  • They most certainly do: if you talk to a bunch of NPCs in the school, several of the girls talk about how they initially found Teddie interesting but were then disappointed in him the moment he opened his mouth, much like with Yosuke, so everyone most certainly knows about him. As for how he got into the school in the first place, Yosuke probably had to pull some strings to ensure he could get in there.

    Inaba covered in fog 
Inaba gets covered in fog on November 21st, and then on December 3rd, everyone puts on their glasses and realizes that it allows them to see through the fog. They realize the fog from the Midnight Channel is leaking out into the real world.

This is strange for two reasons.

First, Teddie. Teddie doesn't require glasses, even after growing a body. Even if previous instances of fog were just normal fog (which would explain why he didn't say anything after witnessing the fog following Mitsuo and Naoto's disappearances), the "Midnight Channel fog" was in town for nearly two weeks before they realized that their glasses worked on it. Even if it's completely invisible to him, everyone was talking about the fog, so there's no way he could've missed it in all that time.

Another more minor issue is the fact that once they realize that their glasses work on the fog, they never mention this again and never take advantage of that fact. If you're trying to live your day to day life in a town covered in fog and you had a pair of glasses that allows you to see through the fog, wouldn't you wear them? At worst, people would ask why you're suddenly wearing glasses, and considering everyone else is worried about the end of the end of the world, I doubt they'd notice or care. Plus, nobody would see your glasses anyway unless they were directly in front of you. Ultimately, it just seems kind of silly to not wear them.


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