Follow TV Tropes

Following

Headscratchers / Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Go To

  • In the sequel, why is siding with the Ithorians considered better than the Czerka Corporation? Granted, the ecosystem is nice and cute and cuddly, and Czerka aren't exactly the nicest people. However, when rebuilding is done, which one is going to help the planet more? A pretty ecosystem, or a stable economy?
    • You try maintaining a stable economy when the planet in question is inhospitable.
      • Well, the technological level does allow for air scrubbers, artificial farms, and substitutes for what a thriving ecosystem could have provided better.
    • There's also that Czerka Corporation, famed for its abysmally low ethical standards, has been known to define 'stable economy' in some pretty horrific terms. Witness Kashyyyk. And that's assuming they're actually telling you the truth about the Ithorians' plan being economically inept, given that Czerka also lies like a rug.
      • Czerka is committing the usual political lie of conflating "stable economy" with "massively profitable economy".
    • Advertisement:
    • Kreia tells you in the end that Telos eventually recovers regardless of which you side with. If you're with the Ithorians it's a natural paradise, while if you went with Czerka it's a more technological world.
    • The Czerka/Ithorian conflict is mainly a question of "Do the ends justify the means?" There are, of course, some deeper things...KOTOR 1 was made by BioWare, a Canadian company, so liberal actions are going to be considered more ethical than conservative actions (easy light side points for me, since I'm pretty damn liberal). Obsidian may not have quite the same "nationality bias", but may have wanted to maintain some ethical continuity. Beyond that, of course, is the fact that KOTOR 1 also established Czerka as a corrupt, uncaring corporation. Also, the Ithorians originally were scheduled to get G0-T0, so they likely had Republic backing, and the game has a strong pro-Republic bias. Economies typically stabilize at one point or another, so that motivation is out, becoming merely a question of "when?"
    • Advertisement:
    • Rather than it being a Canadian vs U.S. thing, (Of which I highly doubt) It's far more likely that they were operating of the Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism. Furthermore, Czerka has been shown to deal in slavery, trade with the Sith (KotOR 1), hire bounty hunters, and conduct corporate sabotage. It's plainly obvious that they're painted as a faction of Corrupt Corporate Executives.
    • I'm pretty sure it was also stated that restoring Telos to the way it was, was necessary to restore the planet's connection to the Force. Ironically, despite Czerka's claims, it is actually their plan which is short term in the end.
      • Um, Czerka has been known to be corrupt, evil arsehats. They were more-or-less openly alligned with the Sith in the JCW and were definitively tied to charming activities like mass enslavement, unethical accounting, attempted genocide (though in the case of the Sand People that might not have been ENTIRELY unjustified), and smuggling. In the second, it is obvious as frell in the game-regardless of which path you take- that Czerka has been making deals with the underworld, smuggling weapons, and violently annexing Ithorian Restoration zones. They clearly are gigantic scumbags who will stab anybody in the back if it suits their needs and who cavort around with Sith. Hence the distinction.
      • There's also the matter of Czerka's chief officer, Lorso, who is doing her best to subvert the Telos Security Force, doesn't hide her affiation with the Exchange and other criminal operations, shelters a couple of thugs from TSF arrest warrants, has a hit out on one of her own employees (and several others, if you side with her), is actively sabotaging the Ithorians (the Ithorians are at least going about things legally), and seems to have her greedy paws in the till on top of it. Like a lot of Dark Side characters, she's greedy, callous, and not nearly as smart as she thinks she is.
      • You can be a wonderful ally for Czerka who never has annoying moral qualms and they still shoot you down.
    • Advertisement:
    • More puzzling is the choice between supporting the Queen and the General on Onderon. The two sides of the conflict seem to be given pretty equal footing; I suppose that the General is supposed to bring to mind Franco or Pinochet or some such, but you're flat out told several times that the people seem to largely resent the current government and are anxious for change, and the General seems like an alright guy, as far as the leaders of military coups go. It's at least not nearly cut and dry as most other Light/Dark Side decisions in the game, and yet the "right" choice is to prop up the corrupt, unpopular government by helping them brutally pacify a popular rebellion.
      • So did you skip through most of the plot developments related to Vaklu?
      • Um, General Vaklu was allied with the Sith, having opponents to his coup and their families quietly murdered, snatching reporters and random citizens off the street to be imprisoned or executed without trial, and (if you pick that particular quest option) contracting the player character to selectively assassinate, intimidate, or mindwhack various pro-Talia military officers so his own people can move into their positions. There's also that much of Vaklu's 'popular support' for his secessionist agenda came solely from his Goebbels-like manipulation of the news media, to the point where the population of Onderon believed that the Republic was committing unprovoked acts of war against Onderon solely because Vaklu's puppets were falsely claiming such. What with all that, its really stretchin' things some to put him and Queen Talia on the same ethical level.
      • Also note that even in the last century, many "corrupt, unpopular governments" were overthrown by "popular rebellions", which swiftly turned out to be even worse. A noteworthy example that can be seen in media was Idi Amin's coup and dictatorship over Uganda. Generally speaking, most military coups become "popular" in the first place by paying lip service to everything the people dislike about the current government, meaning that they will remain largelty unopposed until they are in power, at which point, anyone who realises that the junta are not fulfilling their promises will be quietly (or loudly) removed. Overall, the government being unpopular is not justification for violently overthrowing it with a dictatorship. If you want things to get better, you need affirmative action for gradual change which the people control.
      • At a certain weird level, the thing about "Talia good, Vaklu bad" comes from the Tales of the Jedi comics, where the Jedi set up the new monarchs in the first place, and Talia was supportive of the Republic. As for Vaklu, he was opposed to the Republic, and wanted to split from it... and he was backed by the Sith...but we didn't know that yet. Part of it would stem from the fact that Canada, home of BioWare, supports the Queen, but Obsidian, of course, isn't Canadian as far as I know... Of course, I, being the kind of guy who believes in "DESTROY THE MONARCHS THAT EXPLOIT THE WORKERS! LET THE PROLETARIAT RULE! RISE UP, YE WORKER!" got suckered into supporting Vaklu, even when I intended to go mostly light side (I thought Kavar had fallen or something), and ended up forced to kill Kavar, as did one of my friends, so it got confusing. I guess sometimes the ruling power really DOES know what's best for the people...
      • In which case the problem happens to be YOU YOURSELF not examining the situation clearly before choosing sides. However inherently corrupt monarchism as a system of government, it is pretty clear if you studied the situation that Talia is a comparatively good monarch and Vaklu is a despot. May I remind you that the VERY first encounter you have with Vaklu's faction is when his scounts on Dxun attempt to hunt down and kill you without provocation. And then they attack you and start a fire fight in the middle of DOZENS of ships- many of them certainly civilian- claiming who knows how many lives and undermining Onderonian-Republic relations even more. THEN they lie about it by claiming YOU attacked them in your 'Capital Ship' the Ebon Hawk. And then if you carefully study Iziz, you learn about little things like his supporters trying to start riots which would doubtless cause much bloodshed. And the truly nasty "big lies" being peddled by the media- which is dominated by Vaklu- along with the countless journalists and outsiders who have been "vanished" to perserve that propaganda mill. And the effective neutering of the elected organs of Iziz's government. And the attempts by various Vakluists to murder fellow Onderonian soldiers for simply dissenting and remaining loyal to the crown. And the willingness of Vaklu's men to use heavy firepower in areas crowded with innocents. If you pay close attention, the entire "backed by the Sith" and "planning a horrifically costly civil war" matters are just the icing on the cake. Sure, perhaps you could argue that Vaklu was a Well-Intentioned Extremist not unjustifiably angry at the heavy sacrifices Onderon has made for the Republic without much reward and who might have ironically been pushed to radicalization by overly paranoid and/or extremist Monarchists (for instance, we don't know whether Vaklu was actually planning a coup by the time of the ill-planned assassination attempt on him by an Iziz Councilman), but it is made pretty damn clear to the observant and completionist player that he and his supporters have long since crossed the Moral Event Horizon by the time you show up.
      • Again, more along the lines of Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism than Canada vs U.S. In this case it's the the Benevolent Queen, versus the Evil Chancell- err General
      • Well, a lot of the decisions were supposed to seem grey-and-grey. Plus, as Tales of the Jedi showed, Onderonian rulers have like, a fifty-fifty chance of being crazed psychopaths who take Sith lessons from the spirit of Freedon Nadd. So if you weren't paying attention to some of the crap Vaklu was pulling while you investigated the planet, it's totally understandable that you might have distrusted queen Talia.
      • Not quite so bad these days, since Exar Kun destroyed the sprit of Freedon Nadd and the monarchy Talia descends from is half Beast Master.
      • That and the Jedi finished off the Sith-worshipping Onderonian royalty and merged the bloodline directly descended from Nadd with that of the Beast Riders, which almost certainly drove down the whole "probability of Sith activity amongst the Royalty" by quite a bit.
      • Keep in mind that Vaklu was just the leader and personification of the anti-royalty movement; if you depose Queen Talia, Vaklu also gets killed afterwards, and presumably, replaced by some less-evil people. The real battle was between the Republic and Onderonian nationalists: if you sided with Talia, the Republic gets to annex the planet, and if you sided with Vaklu, Onderon stays independent. Considering how the Republic is a bloated mess that is destined to die in 4000 years, I'd say Vaklu is a preferable alternative.
      • Is the fact that the Republic will end in four thousand years really a good reason to not be a part of it? I mean, all it's other problems, sure, but that's forty centuries. If a system of government can last that long TOTAL then it's remarkable, let alone a government that is already ancient by the time it has four thousand years left
      • Except you don't KNOW how the Republic will turn out and you don't KNOW that Vaklu will get axed by somebody soon after the coup. For all your character knows, Vaklu will live for all eternity as ruler of Onderon. And besides, while the Republic is certainly inefficient where it is not openly corrupt and there are many arguments for some form of Onderonian independence, you forget to ask exactly WHAT the independent Onderon will LOOK like down the line. Remember: Vaklu already defacto instituted a totalitarian police state at least in part prior to his open attack on Talia, complete with Secret Police, an utterly subservient media that would make Pravada blush, the effective elimination of the democratic checks on his power (as shown by his takeover of the Iziz council), and the willingness to terrorize his own populace (as shwon by the attempted riots and the attempts to kill the Loyalist officer corps). Sure, Vaklu gets killed a year or so after his coup, but THE DAMAGE IS ALREADY DONE! Even if the "replacements" are like Khruschev to Vaklu's Stalin or even Juan Carlos to Vaklu's Franco, the groundwork for a totalitarian state is already in place and his successors would be hard-pressed to dismantle it even if they tried very hard, and it would seem that is not the case. In short: the Vakluist Separatist movement is primed to become a longstanding dictatorship that will harm Onderon almost as badly if not far moreso than Talia's integrationist policies would and whose secession from the Republic would greatly cripple the Republic, particularly in reconstruction. To say nothing of the fact that they are allied with the Sith, whose influence rarely works for the better. In short: whatever the validity of the Separatist complaints and the harm of integration by Onderon, the Separatist leadership are gearing the planet towards a totalitarian dictatorship which will likely endure even Vaklu's deposition and which will harm not only the people but also the galaxy at large.
      • Regardless of the player's or the Exile's political allegiances here, the real reason to support Talia is that Vaklu has a death warrant for Kavar. You know, the guy you're supposed to find in the first place? So if you want to assemble the Jedi Council, even if you sided with Vaklu at first (because the Exile doesn't know at this point that Kavar is the Queen's advisor, even though the player knows), the game gives you a final chance to switch sides during the cantina showdown, when it becomes clear that Kavar will turn on you if you side with Tobin.
  • Where the hell did the "anyone can fight a Jedi if they know how" idea come from? Specifically KotOR 2 seems to have this idea that the Jedi are weak. Atton claims to have several skills that work against Jedi, the Mandalorians claim that the Jedi would be nothing without the Force (of course, no one points out that the Mandalorians would be nothing without their hands and feet, which are much easier to remove than the Force). Did the writers not see the films? Boba Fett, one of the most well known, best skilled bounty hunters out there got owned by a rookie Jedi in ROTJ. Han Solo, skilled smuggler, couldn't even put up a decent fight against a broken down Sith like Darth Vader in ESB. The then-depowered Kyle Katarn in Jedi Outcast, gets thrown around like a rag doll by Desann. Yet KotOR 2 claims that anyone can fight these demigods as long as they have a sword that doesn't get cut in half by a lightsabre!
    • It's less that "anyone can defeat a Jedi" that I have a problem with, and more that "Jedi are nothing without the Force" and even Atton being more capable than any Jedi. Um, yeah, the Force makes them super-soldiers. But the years of mental training and discipline, the rigorous martial training? All that counts for nothing, huh? Seriously, ignore 99% of the "points" this game tries to make about Jedi and Sith. The guy who wrote this is to Star Wars game what Karen Traviss was to Star Wars novels.
      • My wife and I just rewatched Aot C on a whim the other day, and one observation I made that I hadn't really considered before stems from Obi-Wan Kenobi. He loses his lightsaber (or has to make do without it) on a few occasions in the movie (fighting Jango and in the Geonosian arena). And his fighting at those points becomes awkward. Not entirely incompetent, mind you, but clearly uncomfortable/out of his element, especially in hand-to-hand with Jango. Once reunited with a lightsaber in the arena, he immediately dices the acklay with terrific form. This resurges in Revenge of the Sith where he, again, loses his lightsaber while chasing/fighting Grievous, to the point where he tries to kick his enemy's metal frame (which doesn't work). Without his lightsaber, the weapon and constant companion of the Jedi, Obi-Wan is next to useless in combat. Why? Because he's been relying on the lightsaber as a crutch, an integral part of his combat prowess. An extension of his arm, if you will (and just look how well losing limbs has worked for people in this series, both physically and metaphorically). And this is with the full power of the Force at his disposal. Imagine how he'd fight without the Force to help guide him, a Force he's been trained to rely on since his infancy. It's exactly as Kreia says, despite your dislike of the concept. If losing a lightsaber is like losing an arm, to lose the Force is akin to losing your sight or going completely deaf (or, depending on the value you place in the Force, both at once). Survivable, sure. But it's going to take a long time to get used to compared to, say, someone who's lived without those senses since birth, never having learned to rely on them. The Force enhances one's abilities to a seemingly supernatural degree. Once you lose it, all the martial training in the galaxy isn't going to do your muscle memory much good when your muscles are used to getting a boost to leap higher, run faster, react more naturally, etc. than a normal human being. A Jedi without the Force would have to effectively learn to walk all over again. That gives everyone else who has had to live without that crutch a leg up as the Forceless Jedi must unlearn everything they have learned just to figure out how to survive in this terrifying new world. That's Kreia's point, and it really does make more sense than you're giving it credit for. It's not that every bit of training counts for nothing (on the contrary, there are nuggets in there that will make the transition easier), it's that all that training isn't as helpful when it includes a reliance on the Force.
      • The problem with Kreia's condemnation of the Jedi as being reliant on the Force isn't that it isn't internally sound, it's that it's just a stupid point to begin with. Losing the Force is exactly like losing your sight, it's a sense and ability you've had all your life. Kreia saying the Jedi should have forsaken the Force rather than grow dependent on it is akin to telling someone they should rip their eyes out rather than grow dependent on being able to see. That's not even a remotely reasonable position to take, which is plainly shown by Kreia herself using the Force just as much, if not more so, as every other Force adept in the game.
      • Sure it's sound. If you lose your eyesight, then all that time training blindfolded is going to be useful (and funnily enough, training blindfolded is exactly what Jedi do). If you lose the Force, then all that time training non-Jedi skills is going to be useful. Kreia advocates a holistic view of the universe and really takes exception to the Jedi philosophy that the Force is be-all and end-all.
    • Uh, no? Atton and HK-47 lay out what you need to do to defeat Jedi without being one yourself: Don't face them in single combat. Don't use blasters. Don't fight them directly. Use grenades, use rockets, use gas weapons, use mines. Attack the padawan to disrupt their Force Bond. Attack civilians to draw their attention away from you. Use mental recursion techniques so they can't read your mind. In other words, fight the Jedi with weapons they can't defend against. Use known techniques to avoid being subject to Jedi tricks and mind-reading. This doesn't exactly guarantee victory, but Jedi are not gods.
      • There's an account of a tabletop roleplayer taking advantage of weapons Jedi and Sith can't defend against here. Flamethrowers work well. He also relies on the other players' habits of over-specializing in lightsaber combat or the iconic powers like force lighting, which isn't much of a stretch to see as something that happens in-universe.
      • Boba Fett example: Boba Fett had Luke restrained in a cord that his lightsaber couldn't cut. Fett was only defeated by sheer dumb luck when Han swung around and blindly hit his backpack. Not a good example of an ordinary human being defeated by a Jedi, esecially as said ordinary human was not defeated by a Jedi.
      • Darth Vader example: Han was surprised, and only got off three blaster bolts, before a simple Force pull ripped his weapon out of his hand and then he was surrounded by Stormtroopers. Not a good example of an ordinary human taking on a Jedi.
      • Good example of ordinary fighters taking on Jedi and winning: Battle of Geonosis. 200+ Jedi, most of whom were quite handily slaughtered, including one instance of a Jedi with his lightsaber ignited who was casually disposed of by Jango Fett with three blaster shots.
      • Better example of ordinary humans taking on Jedi and winning: Order 66. And the Clone Troopers only used regular blaster weaponry against those Jedi, many of whom were Masters, and none of the specialized techniques and weapons Atton of HK-47 suggested. Although, the attacks ARE NOT premeditated, and are based on an order presumably preprogrammed into the clones. No premeditation means no mind-reading.
      • Well, yes, but note that Order 66 involved the Jedi being taken entirely by surprise, mostly alone, and usually surrounded by two hostile armies.
      • Which just goes to show that the trick to killing Jedi is planning, planning, and more planning. Isolating the Jedi, surrounding them, and catching them off-guard are all part and parcel of the basic Jedi-killing strategies people like Atton and HK-47 advocate.
      • Actually, HK-47 says exactly the opposite. I quote:
        Explanation: Statistically, overplanning the assassination of a Jedi seems to backfire. Extrapolation: There are many theorists who claim Jedi can see the future, and I do not know if that is true, but it seems impulsive acts are more common to succeed than planned incidents.
      • Well, for HK himself this might be the case. He is supposed to be a protocol droid so if he just suddenly starts shooting the Jedi he's with when their guard is down he might succeed. If, however, he set up something elaborate then something might make the Jedi suspicious and they'd be on their guard.
      • Long story short: it is entirely possible for Muggles to kill Jedi. The mythos is literally laced with examples, the most apparent being the Battle of Geonosis, where the piece-of-tripe TF droids did it by the bushelload, albiet primarily to a Jedi order far past its prime and which has let its military capability ebb away. For harder and more competent Jedi targets, you really need to train yourself up on how they operate and keep a few basic principles in order (which Atton and HK mention). It is not foolproof, but well equipped, trained, and learned combatants can do it with fair regularity. And note that neither Atton nor HK were in fact "anyone" but they were very well primed to take down Jedi: HK was an Assassin droid built by Revan himself even as he prepared to come back into known space to wage war on the Republic (and by extension the Jedi Order), and Atton was a member of an elite Sith commando unit organized by Revan- who it must be noted was a Jedi and thus knew their weaknesses and probably passed that knowledge around- specifically organized to take and neutralize Jedi by either (if possible) converting them or (if not) killing them. And It must be noted that they were on the whole aiming to take the Jedi alive rather than killing them off, which is doubtless even harder. This in no way translates to "any random barfly or mook can go against a Jedi and win."

      • This troper would advocate the use of fully automatic weapons, as opposed to the (seemingly) semi-automatic blasters their enemies use. Jedi may have incredible reflexes, but it's impossible to block a hail of bullets with one parry.
      • All blaster rifles and repeating blasters have automatic settings. That doesn't really stop the Jedi in KOTOR from parrying them.
      • It doesn't really stop Jedi in other games either - it could just be game mechanics, but I once made a kill in Jedi Outcast multiplayer simply by standing in place with my lightsaber active while a guy three feet ahead fired an Imperial repeater at me. A few shots did get through and injure me, but the volume of fire that got reflected and hit him instead was far greater.
      • And how exactly are you going to fire accurately? Blasters have recoil, you know. Your aim will be thrown off after three full-auto shots, without the Jedi even having to block. There's a reason only fixed positions fire rapid fire consistently.
      • Which suggests a way to take down Jedi- hose them down from long range with a fast firing, tripod-mounted repeating blaster. This also puts you far enough away that if they manage to survive your assassination attempt, you may be able to escape being chopped to bits by a lightsaber.
      • Or you could just use a whole lot of semi-auto blaster rifles firing simultaneously. No matter how good a Jedi is, there will be some upper limit on how many incoming shots he can deflect or dodge at once. If you have a whole platoon of troopers shooting at them at once, that limit is almost certainly going to be "not nearly enough." And if they manage to cut through part of your platoon, well, We Have Reserves.
      • Which is precisely how Jedi are taken down in canon. There's a reason most Jedi prefer to run away when fighting armies, you know.
      • This troper always thought the tri-blaster that super-battle droids had in the battlefront games would make excellent jedi killing wepons. While in the games the jedi were technically invincible, in any other context: there is no possible position that a single or double-bladed lightsaber could be angled at which would deflect all three shots and dual wielders are few and far between.
  • Average grunt Sith Troopers, as opposed to force sensitive Sith. Imagine the sales pitch from Revan after the Mandalorian Wars: "Ok, guys, we've beaten the Mandalorians after suffering staggering losses and years of misery. You're all exhausted and want to go home to your friends and families. But how's about this instead: let's all betray our oath to the Republic we just sacrificed everything to save and go back as murderous, bloodthirsty, Dark Side-tainted conquerors loathed by everyone! In return, we force sensitive Sith will reserve the right to randomly kill you lowly grunts for any petty infractions and treat you as meaningless cannon fodder to be casually expended in our conquest of the galaxy. Deal?" KOTOR II made a valiant and unexpected attempt to explain this through the influence of Malachor V and Revan weeding out the disloyal, but the whole premise is still something it's best not to think too hard about if you want to keep suspension of disbelief intact.
    • What are they going to do? Defect to the open arms of the Republic? Let's see how that'll turn out...
      • Why not? The soldiers fighting the war weren't tratiors in the eyes of the Republic. It was the Jedi who were kind of stuck.
    • This Troper assumed it was the same deal that the grunts under Ceasar did; they had more respect and loyalty to their commander than they had the senate and decided to put him/her on the throne.
    • This is why I find it so difficult to believe KotOR 2's theory that Revan was a good guy all along. It simply makes more sense if we just say s/he fell to the Darkside and forced all the Republic troops to become Sith through fear and intimidation. It's hard to say no to a person who can choke you to death without even touching you.
      • Not everything a fictional character ever says is objective truth, especially if it's a lying liar who lies, like Kreia. She might just be deceiving herself and trying to redeem her student in her own and the Exile's eyes.
      • KOTOR 2 never SAID Revan was a "good" guy, only that he was a visionary who realized an even greater threat from beyond the rim and took stepts to counter that threat. That does NOT mean he was a good man, only a good strategist, tactician, and politican. It also helped that it was quite likely the troops with Revan were rather disenfranchised with the Republic and ESPECIALLY the Jedi Council, and who simply trusted Revan more. It also helps that Revan killed off most of the likely turncoats and a combination of persuasion, threats, charisma, and force trickery.
      • Even the theory that Revan intimidated his soldiers into following him seems a stretch, though. If that were the case, wouldn't they defect back to the Republic the second they had the chance? Wouldn't the Sith Troopers you encounter in game be a little less gung-ho in their Snidley Whiplash-style villainy and support for Malak? Or, for that matter, given the sheer number of troops Revan and Malak had as followers, I don't think the threat of violence would work. No matter how tough the Sith, it's a bit difficult to force choke an entire army.
      • You seem to be assuming that every single Sith soldiers and Dark Jedi you see came from the original Army Revan corrupted after Malachor. We know more than enough to say definitively that that is not so. A LOT of the regular Sith grunts are- as per the pre-launch site- new recruits/conscripts, Republic deserters, fugitives, and plain old oppertunistic thugs hiding behind the steel sheen of the Sith uniform because it allows them to do what Republic law forbids and get away with it (which is rather Truth in Television). The Dark Jedi doubtless recieved countless members from Jedi "broken" by the Sith (Atton in KOTOR 2 was part of a commando unit tasked with capturing and doing exactly that to Jedi), new force-sensitives detected by the Sith and trained fresh (the Selkath in the Sith Embassy on Manaan are such a case), and even some Jedi who fell on their own and sought the Sith out. And once they were in, the Sith- against as per the Prerelease website- instituted enough fear to prevent anybody from leaving easily with their necks intact. Suffice it to say the original military Revan corrupted was several times smaller than what they have now. And Malak was also with Revan, and thus it is likely they also had some measure of respect for him (after all, he WAS Revan's 2IC and best friend who fought the Mandalorians with them) and those who were less respectful.. kept their mouths shut if they wanted to live.
      • Well the writers try to hand wave it with: "Revan was really charismatic", so I guess that either means Revan was using a super power mind trick, or s/he just writes really inspiring military speeches.
      • Godwin's Law aside, the example of Hitler's rise to power in Germany may provide a possible alternate pitch that Revan could have used: "You republic grunts are truly the best of the best. But if it wasn't for us force sensitives who defied the Jedi council, you'd have all died. But we refused to obey the council when they told us to abandon you, and between your training and the leadership of us force sensitives, we beat the MANDALORIANS. But if you'd been left with just the Republic for guidance, you'd have been dead in two, maybe three weeks. That's unacceptable, the Republic is long past its usefulness, and we're the ones who'll change it. And now that we're training even more force sensitives to lead you, together we'll be unstoppable. With your strength and our leadership we can remake the galaxy in such a way that you'll never be abandoned by the Jedi again. You just need to remember that whatever we do, even if some die, it'll be better in the long run
      • Atton mentions the resentment soldiers had for the Jedi that didn't come to their aid grew into hatred over time. Add that to the fact many of those same soldiers likely didn't have a home or family anymore and its easier to see why they stayed loyal to those that fought beside them. When Sith teaching began to filter through the ranks from the only Jedi they did respect, Atton makes it clear that it made perfect sense for them to go along with it. It's worth noting the whole "lets turn evil, destroy the Jedi and conquer the republic" speech probably never happened. Becoming an invading Sith army likely evolved gradually over years during the conflict and their time in the Unknown Regions.
    • They mention in the game how the Republic was bloated and ineffectual, and that people were already resentful of the Republic's incompetence. Revan took advantage of the existing animosity towards the Republic to convert people to his philosophy.
  • In Episode 1, a great lot of internet noise was made when Qui-Gon died, and didn't crumple away to nothing the way Yoda and Obiwan did. Why, then, am I seemingly the only person that noticed that as you walk away from Darth Nihilus' body, it seemingly collapses into nothing under the robes?! For the love of Han shooting first, people!
    • So...you're complaining that a powerful Force user....dies like other powerful Force-users?
      • Oh, I'm peachy with that. I'm less than thrilled that the general playerbase seems not to think it means anything.
      • Nihilus had no body. His essence was stored in his armor and robes.
      • Wrong. Several of the official artworks for Nihilus show him having a face behind his mask.
      • No, I am afraid that you are wrong. Those artworks showing Nihilus' nose beneath the mask were done by a third-party merchandising company, not by the developers. Nihilus was always intended to be a being of pure Negative Space Wedgie.
      • Funny, his lightside-turned apprentice disagreed when she took his mask.
      • She’s not literally saying he’s a man, as in a male, or saying that he’s a MAN, as in a human. After all, what kind of normal human disappears in a puff of red smoke? Nihilus was a larger-than-life figure to everyone who knew of him. Visas worshiped him as a deity. The line just meant she had overcome all that nonsense. That despite his world-destroying and Force-sucking abilities, he wasn't a god. He was just a mortal, and he could be killed like everyone else. It’s just a final beat on her character growth.
      • Another explanation would be that Nihilus' willpower is the only thing that keeps his hungry hungry black hole force powers from eating himself rather than everything around him. After you kill him and Visas gets her look, Nihilus' little black hole gets too hungry and eats him.
      • Wookiepeedia says that Nihilus didn't have a body and was just using the Force to keep a form. So once he died, that just went away. Not the same situation as the likes of Yoda and Obi-wan. To address the original point: the audience of this game is probably not exactly the same as the audience of Episode I. In fact, I'd imagine the people who played this game were among those who, rather than decry Qui-Gon's non-disappearance, immediately went around looking for explanations of what happened.
  • Something that just bugs me is the idea that Revan didn't fall to the dark side. Okay, let's say that he had the best of intentions and he simply decided to use the dark side to help maintain the Republic. You know what that's called? Falling to the dark side. You use the dark side and you become Crazy McEvilGuy. Also, Revan's plan nearly caused the destruction that he presumably wanted to avoid when he was usurped by his stupider, less of an magnificent bastard apprentice. The same dude that Revan turned to the dark side in the first place. The dark side: Never, ever a sensible solution to your problems.
    • The only person who ever even hinted that Revan may not have fallen to the Dark Side was Kreia. Think about that for a second. Are you honestly believing Kreia's words here?
      • This whole thing was Obsidian trying, very poorly, to make Revan a better character as a way of sucking up to the fans. Also note the numerous times that someone claims that the Jedi masters are to blame for fallen students because of flawed teachings. It all adds up to the writers doing whatever they can to assure us that whatever evil things Revan did were not his/her fault.
      • No it doesn't. It adds up to morally questionable characters commenting on what really are questionable morals being taught by characters who are not infalliable. Black and white has been turned to shades of gray. And as stated before, the one person who is trying to redeem Revan here is Kreia. A Sith. The villain. If you believe everything Kreia is telling you about Revan, especially after the revelation that she is a Sith and also the villain of the entire game, then you are doing it wrong.
      • Its also worth noting that the characters that actually try to justify Revan's actions are G0-T0, Kreia, and HK-47. one of them is a Sith Lord, one of them is an amoral computer with no qualms about outright murder, and the other is an assassin droid that enjoys its work and happened to be programmed by Revan. These are comparatively amoral characters who are obviously biased in favor of Revan's viewpoint. If you are blindly taking their words at face value without considering that bias, you are doing it wrong.
      • Exactly. Besides, it's a theme throughout the game that no one really knows much about Revan and why he did what he did. What we hear from characters are conjectures, not facts. Of the above characters, G0-T0 never knew Revan, and only HK was actually with him during part of the wars.
    • The people complaining about "Revan never fell to the dark side" are missing A LOT of points. As posted numerous times above and below this post, the point KOTOR 2 was making was about gray morality. It's basically giving a big "Fuck You!" to the simplistic Black and White Morality of the first KOTOR and many Star Wars stories in general. Nowhere in the game does Kreia or anyone else talk about Revan as if he is this saintly good person. They are admiring his STRENGTH, CHARISMA, POWER, and DETERMINATION to fight the Mandalorians while the Jedi Council sit on their asses and did nothing. Kreia states that she thinks Revan did not fall per se. She believes he sacrificed himself to the dark side to fight a greater threat he discovered while fighting the Mandalorians (this threat tuns out to the be Sith Emperor and the hidden Sith Empire). It's true that we shouldn't see Revan's actions and atrocities as justified (at least not completely) and it's also true that more evil characters like GO-TO and HK-47 have questionable reasons for supporting Revan. However, there are other things we must consider. The sequel is getting people to ask questions about the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War, the Force, and, hell, Star Wars in general. Examples: Why did the Jedi Council refuse to help the Republic when it was clearly in dire need of help? Was their decision justified? Why did it take Revan to rebel to effectively turn the tide against the Mandalorians? If practically half the Jedi Order went on to follow Revan and lay destruction on the galaxy WORSE than that of the Mandalorian Wars, shouldn't the Jedi Council and teachers receive at least some blame? In addition to bad teachers, do the Jedi teachings themselves contain great failings? Sorry to sound so heavy-handed, but I just felt obligated to clear all this up.
    • I don't know about you guys, but I like being a bad guy now and then, in between saving the world/galaxy. This is one reason I like the MGS series so much. The lines are horribly blurred, blurred some more, entirely wiped away, brought back to confuse you further, and then made clear, only to be blurred more.
      • Well fair enough, but you said you liked being the bad guy. The idea of Kreia claiming that Revan didn't fall was her saying that Revan was never a bad guy, even when s/he went to war against the Republic, slaughtering troops and torturing Jedi to break their wills and turn them to his/her side.
      • Kreia is a Sith. I don't know about you, but when a Sith is throwing around comments on morality, it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
      • Kreia isn't exactly a Sith, though she does share some of their ideals. But the thing to remember is that she was booted out of the jedi because everyone she taught turned to evil, and it is implied in the game that this really bothers her. I wouldn't be surprised if she was making up the story of Revan being a hero in order to make herself feel better.
      • The game is basically a Take That! at the Jedi/Sith. Kreia cares for neither side, which is why her alignment is neutral. She follows her own philosophy, and spends the game trying to convince the player that she has the right idea. In the end, Revan is probably just another example she twisted to make a point that supports hers.
      • Kriea said Revan sacrificed himself to the Dark Side. She meant that she believes Revan knew what he was getting himself into when he began using the Dark Side; he knew it would make him evil. Instead of thinking "I am capable of using the Dark Side without becoming evil", he thought "I am going to use the Dark Side for my goals, knowing full well it turn me into a monster." That is my interpretation on what she said, anyway. It's been a while since I played the game, but I do remember her telling you that the difference between a sacrifice and a fall can sometimes be hard to see.
    • If you believe that Kreia is Arren Kae, then a lot of her motivations becomes clear. The Council blamed her for Revan's fall and considered it her fault. For someone who so highly values manipulation (and what is teaching but getting someone to think and act as you want?) that would sting. So, Kreia starts trying to justify what Revan did, that his fall isn't her fault because it wasn't a fall at all. She trains the Exile to prove to the Council that her way isn't inherently flawed. That's why she was so pissed at them for ignoring the message the Exile was supposed to send and attacking her.
  • What the hell is with that eye-searing armour Carth wears in Kotor 2? And while we're at it, what was with the orange Jacket of Doom in the original? All the other characters looked pretty cool in their normal clothes, so why did the designers do that to Carth?
    • Same reason they thought repeating the Anomen romance that everyone hated was a good idea.
    • Carth is an officer of the Republic Navy. The Republic Navy hates your eyes.
    • Well, Admiral Dodonna's uniform in K1 wasn't too bad, and as her replacement Carth should really be wearing the same uniform, so I guess obsidian was too lazy/ran out of time to adapt a male version of that model. As for the orange jacket, it's clearly channeling WWI flying jackets and I've personally seen tanned leathers that were naturally a similar shade, so...
    • I liked that orange jacket. (Admittedly, his admiral suit needs to be taken, set on fire, and shot into a sun)
    • I always thought the uniform made sense; it's the Bonadan Alloy Heavy Suit, which is a relatively inexpensive, yet well armored piece of equipment. Eye searing it may be, but in the first game on Taris it was pretty useful for keeping yourself from getting killed, so it makes sense that Carth, a skilled warrior, would happily trade fashion for protection.
    • As above, it's entirely possible to take Carth into Taris, give him the Bonadan to keep him alive until the undercity, then trade up for Mission and never use Carth again. For all we know, this makes it canon that Revan either hated Carth so much that he wanted to see him as little as possible, or bro/loved him so much that he wanted him to be in as little danger as possible.
  • Why is the Exile thought to be the last of the Jedi if Bastila makes no attempt whatsoever to hide?
    • Figure of speech.
    • Bastila apparently is hiding, given that she only steps out of the shadows after you leave Carth and they remain in the room by themselves.
    • Bastila is deep in hiding and raising her and Revan's son. Remember that there is a bounty on Jedi and let's face it, if the Sith found out that Revan had a kid (who can't be more than three) they would never stop hunting them. Note that she lets Carth do all the talking to the Exile and doesn't come out until the Exile leaves the room. She wants to stay as far off the radar as possible.
  • If the Exile's special abilities are what allows her to command the rest of her allies (at least Atton, Disciple, and Mira (Handmaiden may do it anyways) will run into combat half-naked, why can't she have Mandalore take off that stupid outdated armor?
    • ....because the Exile doesn't command them to do that. You (the player) command the character to do that. (unless you want to argue that Revan has that same power....) The Exile's ability draws other people to the Exile to follow in his/her wake. It doesn't give the Exile lolmindcontrol.
    • Because the life support in his armor is the only thing keeping him alive. And every general knows, that if you have the frickin' terminator on your team, it might not be too smart to order them to commit suicide.
    • Another Fridge Brilliance: The droids are bound to you because you're their master. Most of the rest of the party are Force Sensitive and the whammy you're putting on them is Force-based. Canderous is as Force Sensitive as a brick, there only because Kreia strung him along by giving him hope he might learn something about Revan's fate, and it's nearly impossible to influence him in the game without cheating. He might just be the closest thing to immune to Exile's charms.
  • So what was the reason behind Kreia's speech in KotOR 2, about the galaxy "needs its betrayers"? Why? What would be so terrible about a galaxy that didn't have betrayal? She certainly didn't seem too happy about Sion and Nihilus betraying her.
    • * coughDarthVadercough* Remember, not everyone who is being betrayed is necessarily a good guy. At the risk of hitting Godwin's Law here, the July 20 Plot is a good example of a betrayal that (if it had been successful) might have been a good thing.
      • Not to mention that Kreia's perspective is not that of someone who wants the best for everyone in the galaxy. She seems to be more of the opinion that conflict provides people with opportunities to become stronger.
  • Kreia hates the Force, and hates how the Jedi rely too much on the Force while lacking the ability to cope without it. If so, then why is her character class the primarily force-using Jedi Consular? Or why does she see using the Force even when she admits she can easily fix her eyes? Then she wouldn't need to use the force to not bump into walls.
    • She gives an explanation at the end about using the Force so she can come to understand it, and hopefully destroy it. Still, she admits that she's kind of a hypocrite.
    • In her exact words, she uses it "as a poison:" Its something she sees as evil, but necessary for the time being. One of her things is how everyone has their own strengths (even when she's looking down on everyone), and hers is using the Force. That's one of the reasons she hates it so much; its like a reformed alcoholic only being good at brewing beer.
    • Presumably since Kreia plans on killing the Force, by the time she succeeds and thus won't have her eyesight, she'll have already won anyway, and dealing with blindness after that would be a small price to pay.
  • GO-TO's Insane Troll Logic. He places a bounty on live Jedi, and deploys a number of the HK-50 units after you. These two things in tandem result in the Jedi Exile ending up on, or at least being heavily delayed on, Peragus, and results in the death of all the miners on board the facility, and perhaps the destruction of the facility. GO-TO still happily blames you for the incident, just for being there. After that, he decides Telos isn't worth it anymore, despite anyone and everyone, including him, asserting the success of Telos' restoration is vital to the future of the Republic, and is unwilling to work with the Hutts to save the project, rather than perhaps turning his efforts instead to ensuring the Hutts won't rip off the Republic but still allowing them to provide the much-needed fuel for the station. Next up, he feels it'd be OK for the Sith to be the ruling Force-Users in the Galaxy, even though three wars have happened all in a few years because of the Sith. After finally getting you, and being responsible for fifty billion assassins and bounty hunters chasing you to that point, he decides you're too dangerous anyways to use in saving the Republic, and, again, blames you for the destruction of his Yacht, which was only necessary because he didn't want you to leave and take care of the job he captured you to send you to do in the first place. Finally, he wants Malachor to not be destroyed, because evidently it'd lead to anarchy somehow, and tries to keep around an eyesore of a dead planet that cripples and draws in anything that comes near it. HOW did this guy become a crime lord when he operates with logic like this?
    • He's a droid that went insane. It really isn't suprising that his logic doesn't make sense. He probably doesn't have any problems with building and running an organization devoted to carrying out specific economic activities, as that's more or less what he was designed for in the first place, but coming up with a plan to save the galaxy is so far beyond him that he is incapable of managing it, and failing to figure something out was pretty much the reason he went crazy to begin with.
    • I fail to see how it takes Insane Troll Logic to reach this simple conclusion; there can't be a war if there's only one side. You can't assume everyone is telling the truth in KOTOR 2, because hardly anyone is. Even the DROIDS. The bounty exists because he wants the Jedi wiped out. So there's no one to conflict with the Sith, so a period of peace can be achieved. Or because this forces Jedi into hiding, to prevent gatherings like the one that resulted in the Miraluka being wiped out. The rest of his story can be dismissed as an Indy Ploy to keep existing and to keep tabs on you to use you to reduce conflict. Or neutralize your chaotic influence at some point.
      • There can if that one side is the Sith. And how did he come to the conclusion that the galaxy would be more stable with the people whose mission statement is all about killing each other than with the people who either actively help out or sit around and do nothing?
      • Because either through the same ignorance that many civilians in the first game had about Jedi and Sith, a machine-like inability to grasp the implications of organic philosophies/ideologies/religions or plain blindness against the legacies of Sith regimes of the past, G0-T0 has somehow come to the conclusion that "stability" can be simplified to "lack of external dissent" and is utterly independent of which of the two sides is in control.
    • IIRC, GO-TO says that when asked to save Telos/the Republic, he essentially "broke", hence how he was able to go rogue in the first place. It's not surprising that he's a little insane. They also state in the game that droids get memory-wiped so frequently so they don't develop the kinds of quirks (namely autonomous and unpredictable behavior) that GO-TO and T3 exhibit.
    • Remember that Goto is a droid. He has no knowledge or understanding of the Force. From his perspective, the Sith and Jedi are just two names for basically the same thing: lightsaber-wielding jerks who think their religious ideas give them the right to tell everyone else how to act. He doesn't really a see a difference between them, so of course it wouldn't matter to him which side wins. The fact that the Sith would destroy the Republic (in one way or another) should they be triumphant would make no sense to him, because he can't grasp that the Dark Side basically turns you into a super-insane case of For the Evulz.
  • The Jedi Council's entire method of handling the Exile. First off, one of Revan's most esteemed generals defects after Revan successfully turns everyone else under his command to the darkside, and the council's response is to... banish her. Some of their most promising young Jedi are all either dead or evil, but they make no attempt to put Revan's own freaking general to any sort of tactical use. Well, fine, they were clearly unsettled by the Exile's disconnection from the Force (though this seems extra-egregious when one considers that they were willing to use amnesiatic!Revan himself in the first game) and hindsight is always twenty-twenty. Things take a nose-dive after the Exile leaves and the Sith start their war, and keep getting worse until Malak makes his ill-fated assassination attempt on his boss. Then things (canonically) get better for a while, as Revan beats the crap out of Malak, thwarting the destruction of the Republic and the Jedi. Then Revan leaves, chasing some half-remembered threat into the dark edges of space, and in his absense, more Sith unexpectedly turn up. Havoc is wrought. The Jedi are decimated. Then, after a large portion of this havoc has been wrought, the Exile comes back, too, and (canonically) goes around trying to pick up all of the mangled pieces of the Order and help the remaining Jedi Masters get out of trouble. Said Masters then decide that the Exile is the reason for all of these problems, and opt to sever her from the Force. Okay, I can see that as maybe being a feasible option after the much-more-immediate threat of Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion has been dealt with, but how did they think that killing the Exile would do anything to hinder those two? At worst, the Exile is the same sort of aberration in the Force as they are, but one willing to help try and destroy the other, much more hostile aberrations out there. An Enemy Mine situation would be the very baseline for common sense. Did they think Nihilus and Sion were like Summoned Familiars or something, and that cutting the Exile's connection to the Force would just make them 'poof' out of existence?
    • The Jedi masters, having been trained in the Force from childhood, probably assumed that the Exile, without the Force, was incapable of doing much good, so they didn't try to use her even though she had been a general. They didn't understand that her experiences and tactical mind could still be useful even if she had been cut off from the Force.
    • They weren't simply unsettled by the Exile's loss of the Force, they were terrified by it. When they looked at the Exile, they saw the very antithesis of their existence. Later, when the Exile returned, the council began to see the Exile differently, as a real and direct threat. Maybe not immediately, but at some point they were afraid that the Exile would become like Nihilus. While the Sith were at that point a unknown threat to them, the Exile presented another danger that they could and would deal with there and then.
      • The Jedi Masters weren't just worried about the Exile, they were worried that others could become like her. They were afraid that others would "learn the lesson of Malachor V," fears that were realized when the Sith discovered Trayus Academy.
      • What's more, if the Exile really could cause the death of the Force, then as long as the Exile was around, the Jedi were at risk. Not just at risk of losing their powers, but even losing their lives. When Kreia cuts them off from the Force, the implication is that they were unable to survive the process. If they let the Exile go and take on Nihilus, what guarantee was there that the Exile wouldn't (even accidentally) cause the death of the Force before she came back and let them cut her off?
      • If the Exile could cause the death of the Force, then the Masters are still massively incompetent for banishing the one person capable of finding the guy that devoured an entire fucking planet. "You may be a danger to the Force some day so we'll ignore you and steal your powers. I'm sure that much bigger danger who has actively consumed entire planets won't be a problem at all." The Masters, Vrook in particular, are short-sighted, grudge-holding assholes who can't see two feet beyond their own dogma. The Republic would have died under their watch, and they would have let it happen.
      • ^ Except they didn't take the Exile's force powers at all. Kreia told you so in order to make you crave vengeance and/or understanding why. The Exile lost his force powers because he turned away from it in disgust.
      • No, the Jedi never actually take the Exile's powers. However, if you don't end up killing them yourself then they put you in stasis and are in the process of stealing your powers when Kreia comes in and kills them for you...while the much bigger danger who has actively consumed entire planets is still out there. And they know at least a little about him because that's why they all went into hiding.
      • Although the Jedi Masters didn't know about Nihilus, they knew that the Sith were able to form bonds with Force sensitives and siphon their power. These Siths exist because of the Exile's actions on Malachor V. Nihilus learned his powers from the Exile and the Jedi Masters believed that so long as the Exile has a connection with the Force, there will be the potential for another Nihilus. Sending the Exile against Nihilus would be too much of a risk. She could become like Nihilus or someone else could learn from her and become another Nihilus. The Masters believed that it would be best to just sever her connection with the Force and cut their losses.
      • Except that logic falls flat, too. The assassins already learned it. They are still learning it, for them to continue existing. Unless they believe the Exile is actively teaching them to do it, then stripping her of the Force to correct the problem is like killing an inventor after he's already passed out blueprints of his work. Besides, even if they didn't know about Nihilus, the Exile does. She could tell them "Hey, I have the student of the guy who wiped out Malachor on my ship." In fact, she should have, but oh well. They're punishing their only source of information out of fear of a possibility of danger, rather than fighting the actual threat.
      • Who says they're acting rationally? They're completely terrified of the Exile and what she represents. The Jedi are down to three old masters and are facing annihilation at the hands of a potential army that will destroy every trace of the force in their path and is operating in the shadows where nobody can find them. At that point I would be surprised if they DIDN'T jump up and down, screaming "kill it with fire" at the only threat they can see in front of them, real and/or justified or not.
    • Basically, they were afraid of what the Exile had become and certain factions in the council (*cough* Atris) ended up using the Exile as a scapegoat "We need to punish someone and since you're the only one who can back, we are going to punish you". Several of the master in the game say that banishing the Exile was a mistake when you encounter them (light-side path only I think).
  • Kreia insists that the Exile should follow neither the light side nor the dark side of the Force. So on this troper's second playthrough, she attempted to stay neutral. Not only was this not rewarded in any way, but when the Exile reached Korriban, she was unable to proceed without turning to one side or the other, and having gone there late in the game, there was no way to gain enough points either way. Game over. In a game that introduces greys to a world of Black and White Morality, why should the player be punished for following the game's own philosophy?
    • You only need sufficient LS or DS points to enter the secret tomb, a completely optional level. You can just do the Sith academy and be done with Korriban.
    • Kreia's Philosophy and the game's philosophy are two very different things. The game points out that the ways of the Jedi, of pacifism, caution, and patience, cause people to die because action is never taken, while the methods of the Sith are just plain immoral and petty- it never tells you that neutrality is best, but that what Star Wars typically shows as "good", isn't what good is at all. Kreia, on the other hand, just thinks that any attempt to help people or to cause needless pain is a sign of weakness, and that the best way to survive is to manipulate others to achieve your goals without being caught up in needless cruelty. In other words, they're both Gray, but very very different types.
    • It could be said that someone who is neutral doesn't need the teachings in the tomb. Considering the tomb's trials are meant for someone torn between the concepts of light and dark, the impact may or may not be lost on someone who already reconciled the two. From a gameplay perspective however, the high requirement for force affinity might be the thing keeping people from flying straight to korriban and taking the sweet gear in the tomb.
  • Why in two in the tomb is it a darkside choice to turn against Kreia when it is made entirely clear that she has been manipulating you from the beginning and throughout the game. I could tell she would turn out to be evil from the very beginning yet it is the darkside action to side with the illusions of your companions despite them being completely right!
    • It's because the only way you can announce your intent to turn against Kreia is by viciously saying she deserves to die and that she's beyond redemption. Not a particularly Jedi thing to do.
      • Thats kind of my point why is the only option either too side against your companions who are acting irrationality but for justified reasons or siding against Kreia for the wrong reason.
    • Oddly enough, during this sequence, I ran into a bug on the Xbox version in which, after choosing the Light Side response (protecting her), and killing Atton and the others, she respawned, and the only way to proceed was not to take a side.
    • Your party members are fully intent on killing her no matter your choices, even when she's been (from your perspective) nothing but helpful and condescending. As far as you know, she's completely redeemable, and the only other option you could make here is to defend her, which could either be simple enough that you could just knock them out like in the Handmaiden's fight, or so difficult that you have no choice but to kill or be killed, depending on your progress, levels, and equipment. Otherwise, you get apathy is death.
  • In KOTOR 2 I understand that the entire point is that the Jedi of this era are effete and too worried about the negative consequences of their actions that they would rather do nothing at all, but Vrook's grouching to you about how reckless you are seems especially stupid and hypocritical. He says that all actions have consequences and the result of you saving him from the mercenaries is that they will attack Khoonda. He claims that by allowing himself to be captured he'll find out who is attacking the Jedi and his removal from the equation will allow a peaceful conclusion to the hostilities between mercenaries and settlers. We learn that the Exchange wanted Khoonda's administrator dead so they could move in and use the place to their own ends and that they already had plans to attack the settlement even before you rescued Vrook. But let's assume we didn't know that and that the Exchange wasn't involved; the hostilities between the mercs and settlers escalates and a full blown conflict is triggered. Without the presence of Vrook to either negotiate or just fight with the Khoonda militia, the mercs win. That's an entirely plausible consequence of Vrook's action, but rescuing a former comrade from bounty hunters when someone is systematically killing Jedi is "not thinking things through." Again, I understand that these Jedi have decided that they are right and base all their actions accordingly, but the message they normally espoused was "taking risks is bad, don't rock the boat." instead of Vrook's "My risks are foolproof plans, your risks will always end badly."
    • You have to remember one thing: Vrook hates you. He's an overly critical ass who blames you (and only you) for going to war because he has no one else to blame. His logic doesn't make any sense because he's just being vindictive.
      • In my opinion? Sloppy writing. In the first game, Vrook was actual fairly reasonable. He was mistrustful of you at first, but with good reason, considering who you were. But do things properly and you'll earn his respect. But in the sequel he got Flanderized into the overly critical grouch most people remember him as.
      • To be fair, Vrook is dealing with two completely different people about whom he has completely different opinions and with a five year gap of time in which the Jedi have nearly been erased. He's a dick to the Exile because he really doesn't like her. He's not so much a dick to Revan because he was involved in brainwashing him. The five years in which the Jedi have been hunted to extinction has also changed him; he's had to live in hiding on Dantooine this whole time, fearful that his presence could get the whole planet killed and put the Jedi that much closer to extinction. And then the Exile bumbles in to save the day with a lightsaber, just like she thought she could all those years ago in the Mandalorian Wars...
      • The droid you first meet on Dantooine has a recording of Vrook from before the Mandalorian Wars when the Exile was a Padawan. Vrook chews out Vandar for not "disciplining" the Exile after she argued with Vrook's Padawan. Clearly, he's always disliked her, and her decision to follow Revan certainly didn't improve his opinion.
  • In the Restored Content Mod HK-47 tortures an HK-50 unit until it divulges the location of the HK factory. How exactly is he able to do this when it's established that HK-47 cannot harm other HK units? Because his self-preservation protocols prevent him from inflicting harm upon himself and his processor recognizes the other HK units as himself, he is unable to harm them. It seems unlikely he's inflicting pain without injury since the captive HK-50 would know he's not experiencing any actual harm. The only way that would work is if they made assassin droids feel pain and then programmed in a pain threshold.
    • That might actually be a reason why it was cut. Massive, glaring plot hole you found right there.
    • Other HK-50 units are able to torture one of their own in cut content. HK-47 can't kill others of his model, but there's evidently nothing keeping him from inflicting horrible pain. Just because the HK-50 knows it isn't being damaged does not mean that it wouldn't want the very real pain it is feeling to stop.
      • That HK-50 in the cut content was "modified to serve as a diagnostic tool", though, which probably meant they temporarily made him not register as an HK-50 or something so they could torture it for practice.
      • The same logic could apply to HK-47 and his subject. Just have the Exile modify the captured droid. Dialog fails to convey it, of course.
    • In the aforementioned factory, 47 very convieniently "forgets" that shutting down the reactor will harm the 50's before he even enters it, then very luckily forgets it again when there's no way the 50's can remind him. Even besides, say, extracting parts from the 50 he tortures until he's no longer considered an HK, or hardening the 50 against the shock arm that 47 uses so that he doesn't technically receive any damage, it's extremely likely that Bao-Dur or G 0 T 0 wiped his memory for him before the torture scene, and that was maintained until he ends up completely removing his self-preservation core.
  • I'm having a hard time wondering why Sion did not kill Kreia at the beginning. If she manipulated him, I might understand, but I question how that would work. Can anyone else perhaps shed some light on this?
    • Best guess I can wager is that he thought being stripped of the Force by Nihilus was more torture than simply killing her would have been.
    • Actually, I meant on the Harbinger after he cut off her hand, but that's my mistake. But yeah, I never thought of it that way now that you mention it...
    • Kreia probably just escaped after losing her hand. Cut content makes it explicit that she allowed him to cut off her hand, just to manipulate him further.
      • It's also possible that even despite losing her hand, she still wins the ensuing fight, but only just. It's assumeable that Sion takes time to regenerate, however small, which would leave Kreia with enough of a gap to get the hell outta Dodge.
  • I hope this won't come off as too silly, but three things at the beginning of the second game REALLY puzzle me:
    1. Why did the Sith bother with the secrecy when it came to boarding the Harbinger? Sion is so powerful and pretty much immortal that he could have easily just wiped out the Harbinger's crew by himself, find the Exile a lot sooner and more easily (before HK-50 drugged and locked him/her away and Kreia brought him/her to the Ebon Hawk), and kill him/her.
    2. As cool as it was to see the Harbinger arrive at Peragus during your space walk, I really think it would have made A LOT more sense for it not to arrive until at least you're about to fight HK-50. In-universe, the Exile has probably got to take quite a while getting through the dormitories and back to the Administration level. How are the Sith (especially Sion himself) not all over the place? If they are, why did they not only leave Atton and Kreia alive, but also let them join up with the Exile, and then let them all board the Harbinger?!! Especially if Sion entered the fray, the Exile, Kreia, and Atton would be dead in seconds. Atton has no powers (not yet, unless you count in-game automatic self-revival lol) and Kreia and the Exile (we know via their Force bond) are just barely regaining Force powers at this point; they're nowhere near that powerful. I can understand that the Sith (probably) don't realize why the trio boarded the Harbinger in the first place, but still.
    3. Where the hell did the Sith troopers that attack you the Ebon Hawk and the hangar come from??? I could understand if they were Sith Assassins, but regular Sith Troopers (at least as far as I know) don't have the ability to invisibly cloak themselves; where were they all hiding?
    • They could be wearing stealth-field generators.
    • In order:
      1. Sion implicitly did wipe out the crew all by his lonesome. As to why he didn't do so sooner, he probably wanted to be sure that the ship couldn't call for help. They are trying to avoid their presence being known.
      2. Sith rarely seem to be so proactive in this game, again because they are trying to be secretive. They knew the Exile was on the station but they couldn't know HK had gone and murdered the entire crew. They no doubt wanted the Exile to board the Harbinger (it is a friendly ship, as far as she would know), where they could take care of her quietly.
      3. That part was just poorly thought out.
  • The 2nd game tries deconstructing RPG leveling up mechanics by saying you siphoning the force from what you kill, but one problem that, you level up in fights with DROIDS. There's even dialog after the fight with the two HK-50s on Telos saying you are starting to get closer to reconnecting to the force, so the game say's your siphoning the force from machines with no connection to it.
    • As far as I remember, the only droids the Exile herself fights that aren't accompanying other Humans are the HK-50's, and ... well, I don't know what the fuck, actually. Maybe she's just regaining her connection to the Force automatically and getting into fights, no matter what with, helps it along?
      • Don't the droids have some connection to the Force, however minor? I recall you being able to sense the mining droids on the other side of a door on Peragus, so that would have to be the case.
    • That's just Jedi conjecture on why you're getting stronger. Remember your allies are also gaining experience - for example, apparently all that combat and puzzle solving forces the droids to adapt their programming, and Kreia's theory is that conflict is restoring your true nature. Maybe you DO feed off the death of others and the manipulation of their connection to the Force, but it's not the only way the Exile grows stronger - Doing good things also strengthens you as you take on the burdens of others and reconnect the universe through the Force. In other words, there is no one truth, because part of the point of KotOR2 is that everyone can only offer their perspective and no one is always right (heck, the one guy MOST informed about Revan and his mission is the T3 droid and it can only communicate in beeps)
    • The force surrounds and is in all living things. Presumably, the designed-to-mass-murder HK-50's have been in contact with enough organic matter that they would be saturated with midi-chlorians, especially the one on Paragus.
  • On Citadel Station, you are assigned to go to the docking bay to retrieve a droid intelligence, either to escort it safely back to the Ithorian compound or to steal it for Czerka. While there, you are attacked by thugs who try to take the droid from you. This makes sense if you're there on behalf of the Ithorians (in which case, Czerka sent the thugs), but what if you're working for Czerka? Did they hire goons to attack their own hired goon?
    • There was a deleted sub-plot in which corrupt Czerka officer Corrun Falt is trying to discredit Jana Lorso, who he percieved as having userped his rightful place in the company. Presumably whenever Czerka is working against it's own interests it was supposed to be part of this.
  • Related to the above, when you fly down to Telos to look for the Ebon Hawk, Czerka's mercenaries shoot your shuttle down and then attack you. Again, this makes perfect sense if you sided with the Ithorians on Citadel Station (in which case, you've spent the last several days sabotaging their operations), but not so much if you were a Czerka merc yourself. Why would the company try to kill one of its best "assets"?
    • As above, likely part of the cut sub-plot. The mercenaries even specifically name-drop Corrun Falt, but don't elaborate on the reasons.
      • Also, don't forget the mercenaries that attack Lorso when you finish Czerka's main quests. Czerka apparently doesn't actually have much control over the mercenaries, who are largely Exchange - and why wouldn't Exchange mercs decide a juicy Jedi flying overhead is a ripe target, considering your bounty is supposed to be quite large?
  • The entire endgame confused me deeply. Granted Kreia is manipulation personified, why did Darth Sion go from wanting to kill Kreia in the beginning, to wanting to kill the Exile to torture Kreia at the midway point, to apparently acting as Kreia's henchman during the finale? And why is Kreia apparently in charge once again after having been cast down by Sion and Nihilus? And how does Nihilus factor into the bigger picture, besides being a direct threat to the Jedi and a sort of Evil Counterpart to the Exile? Basically, I'm confused by everything following the Un Reveal on Dantooine.
    • There's a deleted scene (well more of a deleted stage direction) when Kreia confronts Sion. He threatens her, she force crushes him, tells him that all his power is worthless against her and starts ordering her around.
    Kreia: Spare me? Ah, yes. No, you simply did not learn the lesson I sought to teach - that your strength is as meaningless as the strength of my hand.
    • As for Nihilus, he is exactly what you describe. A reflection of what the Exile could have become; he was one who suffered exactly as the Exile did, sitting at ground zero of the destruction of Malachor V, but did not block it out like the Exile and became a force monstrosity. His power threatens all of life, and it is his existence which killed the Jedi, the colony of Kataar, and probably a few other places that never really came up.
      • Nihilus is the prototypical Sith lord here. He's the evil, near unstoppable Sith baddie who intends to kill all the Jedi, and will eventually devour the galaxy in his attempt to stave off his hunger. In any other Star Wars media, he'd be the Big Bad who the Exile would kill to save the galaxy after overcoming Kreia's attempts to corrupt her or something. But in the deconstruction frenzy that is this game, he takes the back seat to the Exile's journey to understand herself and the force. Beating Nihilus doesn't actually change anything in the game's narrative, just as it has no impact on the Exile personally. He's just the stereotypical bad guy to keep Kreia looking a shade of gray instead of black.
  • So, why the hell doesn't nobody in the party but Atton seem to be suspicious of Kreia. Even if you ignore that the Exile can't see the flashback with Kreia getting assaulted by Sion and Nihilus, all the exposition she gives to the exile makes it pretty clear she was among the ranks of the Sith, yet all this seems to go over the Exile's head.
    • I haven't played the game in a while, but I remember that other members are suspicious of her, but they might be events that have to be triggered by certain dialogue choices. If I remember right, Bao-Dur will call out her sinister nature if you're leaning more DS (and aren't influencing him to same). Brianna is too, and I think Visas might say something, but Visas is an ex-Sith herself. Disciple does figure out that there's something fishy about her, but Kreia actually Mind Rapes him to forget his conclusions, so he kind of can't. Canderous, and Hanharr if you're DS, are being coerced like Atton, so they're quite aware as well.
      • And for what it's worth, the player can be vaguely aware that she's fishy, but the LS options tend to lean towards trust and forgiveness for her past and the DS options are completely apathetic to her and her teachings. Overall, it's easy to get the impression, at least in the first playthrough, that she's got an agenda but it isn't clear that she's "evil" until she comes out Sith.
      • Plus there's the fact that Kreia conceals her presence with the Force. The Masters don't recognize her until that last conversation on Dantooine because she's using said ability to diminish her presence in their minds. Atris didn't even know Kreia was there on the first trip to Telos even though the Handmaidens locked her in a cell. She's also willing to use that ability on party members, such as the Disciple. If Kreia doesn't want to be suspected, she won't be. Fridge Logic kicks in when you realize she hates the droids (particularly T3) because she can't manipulate them like the rest of the crew.
  • Everybody makes a big deal about both Kreia and Arren Kae being listed as Revan's last master. However, I've played this game at least a dozen times and not once found a reference to Kae being the last. I would like to know when specifically this was mentioned.
    • I don't believe it ever is. There is however, a lot of information that can be pierced together to reach that conclusion. Kreia said she was the first and last. Disciple says Kae was one of Revan's masters and that Revan returned to his first master as the last. Kae was supposed to have died in the war, and when the Council see Kreia, they say they thought she was dead. Kae was in love with an Echani general and Kreia's personal philosophy is very similar to an Echani's. So, taking the similarities between Kreia and Kae, we can assume they are the same person. And if Kreia was Revan's first and last master, than Kae would be as well.
      • There's a nice summation of points in the game regarding how the conclusion that they're the same person is reached here.
  • How is it that The Jedi are so easily Mis-blamed for their role in the Jedi Civil War? People treat Jedi and Sith as indistinguishable despite the fact that The Jedi weren't the ones committing genocide and orbital bombardment. There's trying to create shades of gray and then there's just being dumb.
    • From the outside looking in, it's easy to see them as a bunch of elitest jerks who spend more time being pretentious than getting anything done. It's a small step from there to the fallacy that the Sith wouldn't be a problem if the Jedi would either actually do something about them, or that the Sith only exist because the Jedi exist in the first place and the galaxy would be better off without them.
    • It's more of Avellone's Straw Man arguments against the very nature of the Star Wars universe. Mainly he's focused on how crappy the Prequel Jedi seem to be, and has amplified them tenfold to make them by what he wants everyone to think they are.
    • Revan would never have risen to power if the Jedi had made themselves useful in the Mandalorian Wars. The nonsense logic of the Council can be seen quite well if you discuss this with Atris.
    • What, exactly, are the differences between Jedi and Sith? Both use lightsabers, both use the Force, both think that they're connection to the Force gives them enlightenment and lets them know what's best for everyone else (whether everyone else agrees or not.) From the perspective of people who don't really know the ins and outs of the Force and the Dark Side, it's pretty easy to see them as just two squabbling religious factions, whose religious wars tend to scorch the galaxy when they happen. Especially in the case of Revan and Malak, they were Jedi, up until they point they decided to rebrand themselves Sith and start bending over the galaxy to make it their bitch. It's actually one of the genius pieces of writing in this game, and arguably in all of Star Wars: spelling out, point-blank, that the Jedi and the Sith are no so different as they like to pretend.
    • Saying that the Jedi are the same as the Sith because both use the Force and lightsabers and some Jedi became Sith is like saying the ocean is the same as the sky because they are both big and blue and sometimes the sky has water in it. It's a completely shallow surface evaluation of both sides that basically requires you to intentionally ignore the numerous differences between the two. Jedi are peacekeepers, Sith are constantly starting wars. Jedi serve as advisors and mediators and have no direct political power, Sith rule their empires directly. Jedi prefer nonviolence whenever possible, Sith like to bomb planets to ash. And on and on.
      • That is the entire point. Jedi and Sith are very very different. However, most people don't have the opportunity to see Jedi or Sith up close. Of the trillions of beings in the galaxy, it seens there are never more than a few thousand Jedi or Sith. Yet the entire galaxy burns when these few thousand (or more often, few hundred, sometimes even less than a hundred) individuals disagree over what, to the trillions of non-Force-sensitives in the galaxy, amounts to personal philosophy, meaning there's a lot of reason to resent them. Relatively few ever see a Jedi or a Sith in person, even fewer know one personally, and the number of people who actually know both Jedi and Sith (across a battlefield doesn't count, since the argument then would be "that's how war goes") and can see the effect of those differing philosophies have on trained Force sensitives is probably as low if not lower than the number of Jedi and Sith themselves. The numbers leave the vast majority of the galaxy with no more information than "they're both big, blue, barely navigable to unaided humans, and have some water in them".
  • How is it that the Ebon Hawk is able to show up and grab the Exile from that platform on Malachor V after the final battle with Kreia? When you arrive on Malachor V, the cutscenes show the Ebon Hawk pretty much getting completely destroyed. It crash-lands, gets wedged between two rocks, and then dropped down into a massive chasm. Yet, after the final battle, when everything starts collapsing around you, the Ebon Hawk shows up, looking good as new, to pick you up and fly out of there. I know that T3 is good at ship repairs, but he can't rebuild an entire starship over the course of a couple of hours. There's no way that thing should have been flyable after that...
    • Between T3, HK-47, Mandalore, and maybe Bao-Dur, all of which have repair as a class skill and most of which are at least part droid, it's possible that the Hawk was only just damaged enough to occupy their attention for most of the time (about 4-7 hours, assuming your not speedrunning) it took the Exile to reach and defeat Kreia. Failing that, it doesn't have to be completely fixed to be spaceworthy, as we see in the prologue, which would presumably end up in crashing again or just managing to reach another backwater mining facility for full repairs.
      • Repairing the Ebon Hawk in 4-7 hours under those conditions is like dropping a car off the Empire State Building, then asking four expert mechanics to get it drivable condition within 6 hours using only a toolbox. It's simply impossible. At least in the prologue there was an object resembling a ship for T3 to jury rig into working conditions, even if it had a bunch of holes in it. After falling down a chasm so deep you couldn't even see the bottom, all that should have been left of the Ebon Hawk was a mound of scrap metal.
  • What was Atton doing on Peragus in the first place?
    • He's not a miner, or at least he doesn't give the impression of being one - he's wearing his own clothes in his cell rather than a miner uniform, and he (mistakenly) refers to the exile and the rest of Peragus' population as "you miners".
    • If he just stopped off to refuel, where's his ship?
      • Wookieepedia mentions that he stopped off there for unknown reasons (possibly refueling as you mentioned) and was detained for a security violation and imprisoned in a force field. Beyond that, it's not entirely out of the question that the HK-50 unit destroyed it to prevent miners in the hangar bay from reaching it and possibly escaping.
    • Well, he is a scoundrel. Perhaps of the smuggling variety. If so, he could have been the one to bring that blaster and set of grenades that the one miner was so proud of. That could be the "trumped up regulation" he got caught on; in his mind, "Come on, if he uses these it's going to be in the barracks, not where there's any mining going on." If this is the case, see the HK-50 explanation above. Or it was detained in a part of the station that you just can't get to.
    • If you listen to all the logs of the miners, it's implied that Coorta (the guy who wanted to sell the Exile to the Exchange) was going to split the bounty with Atton in exchange for smuggling the Exile and the miners off the station.
      • That's what I originally thought except... If he has his own ship where is it? If he doesn't have his own ship, how does he smuggle? If somebody (like his crew) took his ship, why isn't he pissed off about that?
  • I saw Atton having the second name "Jaq" in a lot of different places, includign an Star Wars Encyclopedia but i neversaw it in game, where is it from ?
    • Either Dummied Out content from before they changed it to "Rand", or it's his middle name.
    • Word of God says that Atton is an alias and Jaq is his real name.
  • One thing which was always confusing was how the heck does Kreia plan to create a wound big enough to kill the Force? Atris confirms she plans to create a new wound on Malachor V, but the specifics of how are never really discussed. Does she plan to kill the Exile? Or just break her, hoping that action in itself will be enough? But then what are the boundaries of this? If Kreia had killed the Exile while she resided within the core of Malachor and the Exile remained away, would that have been enough? So many questions...
  • How come Mandalore (aka Canderous Ordo) doesn't recognize HK-47, T3-M4, or the Ebon Hawk? After all, it's only been five years since KOTOR 1, and not only did the latter two both belong to one of his previous employers, but he traveled with them and Revan an awful lot in the first game. At least HK and T3 can be excused for being heavily damaged and possibly mind-wiped, respectively. Not so much for Mandalore. For that matter, why doesn't he ever bring up previously travelling with Revan on Dantooine or Korriban?
    • Mandalore plays it very close to his chest and doesn't reveal information that he doesn't want to. There is a deleted scene (restored in TSLRCM IIRC) in which on his first arrival on the Ebon Hawk he looks around suspiciously before asking about the ship and how you came by it. As for the droids, it's implied he never paid much attention to them.
  • So when Goto gets boarded by the Exile's companions aboard his yacht, how come they still have to fight through his security systems, even though it's already been established that Goto doesn't want to kill him/her? Why doesn't Goto just let the Exile out to tell everyone that everything's A-Okay? Furthermore, why do the people on Nar Shaddaa say that the Republic attacked his ship when it's pretty damn obvious that bounty hunters did it?
    • For people thinking the Republic blew up Goto's yacht, remember that ordinary people have no clue who actually blew it up—word would get out pretty quickly that it happened, I'm sure, but who exactly did it could easily get muddled. Perhaps people simply went "Goto's yacht was destroyed—who would be capable of/want to take out Goto?—the Republic must have done it". Further complicating matters is that several different groups of bounty hunters were involved, so multiple groups might be claiming responsibility for it. Perhaps people concluded that they were all trying to take the glory from a third party, and figured the most likely group to have actually done it was the Republic. (or if those don't satisfy you, the Ebon Hawk keeps getting referred to as a Republic vessel in the game, so maybe somebody figured out it was there and concluded it was a representative of the Republic and was responsible for the explosion)
  • Whose idea was it to make the Handmaiden and Disciple gender-specific party members? At least Mira and Hanharr's dynamic makes sense, since they're enemies with opposing senses of morality. But with the Handmaiden and Disciple, there's really no in-universe reason why both of them can't follow the Exile, regardless of gender.
    • It's a weak explanation, but it relates to Atris'/Handmaiden's/Disciple's personal feelings. Atris and Handmaiden see the male Exile as more than just a hero, enough that they're willing to weaken the Polar Academy's defences just to keep an eye on him. Disciple sees the female Exile as more than just a teacher, enough that he's willing to abandon whatever mission Onasi/Cede has him on just for a second chance at Padawanhood.
    • Gameplay wise, they are Mutually Exclusive Party Members but in Star Wars lore, both are stated to have come with the Exile.
Top

Example of:

/
/

Feedback