Fridge / Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse

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Fridge Brilliance

Fridge Brilliance

• Most likely English version only, but when Gaston is ripping into you regarding Dagda's presence (and you being a corpse), Hallelujah gives a sympathizing look and later comments on how it's tough not being human may be some Foreshadowing for the fact that Hallelujah is half demon himself.
• Both Morality Heads, Lucifer in particular, often refers to Flynn as a false messiah after rescuing him from the Divine Powers. Perhaps a symbol to the fact that the Flynn you rescued was Shesha in disguise, and they both noticed that? Or that they were the only ones to notice the fake Flynn, as two of his once-closest friends, Walter and Jonathan...?
• At the beginning when Asahi is seeking glory, Odin never actually lied to her. She did receive attention and glory. The former upon the realization that she and Nanashi released Krishna, the current leader of the Divine Powers, and then after that receiving glory for not just leading to Krishna's defeat, but killing Shesha twice and rescuing Flynn as well.
• A lesser example, but Adramelech. His role among Lucifer's crew is as supervisor of the wardrobe, that is to say he's a fashion designer. His head is that of a donkey and his tail is that of a peacock, making him both a cock and an ass. Is there any doubt as to why his voice is so thoroughly Camp Gay?
• Some people have complained that YHWH's second form is rather boring and plain, but consider "The Reason You Suck" Speech that Satan gives Him on the Massacre route: "You have denounced countless gods as false and dethroned them; you are in their position now. Man leaves faith, denying your divinity... This proves you are no different than other gods." Specifically the last line. Ultimately, YHWH IS no different than the other gods, why exactly should his fallen form be any less "boring and plain" than the other gods' fallen forms?
• There is a good reason why Boss Banter is prevalent as Gameplay and Story Integration in this game as well as in IV. According to Stephen, humans were designed by the Axiom to be able to derive faith in gods and turn it into truth. Denying this faith is what allows them to have the potential to kill gods. Since most bosses that Nanashi and Flynn encounter are gods in their own right, by responding correctly to their Boss Banter, the player can actually make the bosses vulnerable enough in a myriad of ways to be defeated.
• The fact that humans decide on a subconscious collective what is real and what is not real explains why so many demons are willing to join your cause. Think about it - how many demons in your party, throughout the entire series, do you remember? Compared to how many you didn't recruit, that's a lot. The better remembered they are, the more likely they will be brought to a new sequel, like Jack Frost, who is beloved by the fanbase and has developed multiple stronger incarnations as a direct result. In-universe, the fact that these demons are fighting alongside heroes gives them more faith from the heroes' fans and therefore more power.
• During the Mephisto DLC Navare is returned to his human form and is wearing both a safety jacket and arm floaties. Remember how he died due to drowning?
• Unlike the previous game, sometimes certain holes are one way; you can jump down from one, but you can't climb back up. Nanashi is shorter than Flynn.
• When the party is imprisoned, they break out by having Nanashi summon his demons to break the bars. The whole scene is designed to address the oddities of previous game imprisonments; namely, what's keeping the very powerful protagonists from simply busting out? The previous games all have the protagonists imprisoned by a small group of people with all their gear, magic, and demons, and yet they need to go through a trial or use trickery to get out. Apocalypse has the protagonists be arrested in front of an endgame boss, surrounded by all of the Samurai. It also establishes that their weapons have been confiscated, including their smartphones. The party's only offensive magic user (Isabeau) has been imprisoned elsewhere and Hallelujah doesn't want to reveal his magic powers unless he has to. Nanashi is the only one who can get them out because he doesn't need a smartphone to summon demons or use magic.
  • Apocalypse is full of moments that acknowledge the Fridge Logic of previous games, such as being able to shop and return to places after killing the leaders (such as shopping in the Messian corner of the Cathedral in the first game after killing the Archangels). Going on the Massacre route has an alliance of Hunters, the Ashura-Kai, and the Ring of Gaea all crowd to kill Nanashi. Fujiwara specifically tells you that he wanted to keep your betrayal a secret as to not destroy morale. After you kill everyone, there's no one left to tell.
  • Another oddity in the previous game is that there are some places in Tokyo that still have greenery despite there being no sun. Someone asks for LED bulbs to grow crops with, which accounts for places deliberately cultivated like Shinjuku National Park, but some places inexplicably have bushes and greenery. The Fairy Forest is 'rented' from the local gods. The forest is probably still thriving because a god did it, and that's what the fairies are paying rent for. Who's to say that there aren't some gods hanging around keeping the trees around Ueno alive?
  • In SMT 1 and 4, it's not explained how people still manage to make guns and bullets without factories. Now it's explained that demons do it.
  • While it's never quite a Headscratcher in SMT 4, the revelation that almost all Samurai are descended from the Counter Demon Force explains why so many Samurai are descended from Luxurors. Assuming that the Hunters distributed across the land more or less evenly, and all the Casualry Samurai and their descendants became Luxurors, as time goes on, more and more descendants of the original Hunters are placed inside the Luxuror class. Eventually, almost everyone eligible to become a Samurai would be a Luxuror.
• In a very early scene, Manabu has his demon out, but then has to return it to the phone because it's running out of battery. This is small, but significant. The reason why you don't see people with their demons out all the time is because the Demon Summoning Program eats up the battery. When the Mandala hits, going to the guy with the enslaved Dwarf in Kinshicho shows that if the demon is already summoned, they aren't un-summoned. Tokyo probably survived because there were some hunters with their demons already out. Gauntlets are probably a better version of the smartphone that doesn't require power, because Mikado most likely doesn't have electricity. Flynn in the previous game could have his demons out all the time without worrying about power. Nanashi doesn't actually need the smartphone because he's using Dagda's power (presumably, he's using the phone as an interface), so he can always have his demons out. When Asahi and Hallelujah summon their demons for support during battle, they summon them for one attack before returning them (like a Persona). Flynn and Nanashi get one turn per demon, but Asahi and Hallelujah need to conserve power and so use up one turn where the former get two. Isabeau dodges the issue by not having any demons for some reason (probably thanks to Demon Whisper just like Flynn in the previous game). The fact that Abe has his demons out suggests that he's not using a phone. He's probably either just their boss, or summoning them the same way the Demi Fiend did.
• In the Law ending, Lucifer declares that "so long as YHVH exists, however, I shall serve again." He could be referring to his series-traditional role of the commander of anti-YHVH resistance, or that he actually was created by and serves the Almighty.
• Of the protagonists, Gaston and Hallelujah wear the most clothing. Gaston wears the full Samurai outfit but with a tabard instead of the normal coat, and Hallelujah has a shirt, a suit jacket, and another jacket on top. Gaston probably refuses to take of his Crusader uniform out of pride, never had to suffer a cold night without a fire and is probably cold in the sunless Tokyo, or would never admit to being hot. Hallelujah resists fire damage, so he doesn't get hot.
• Why does Dagda withhold so much information from the start? His endgame was always to install a new Creator God to create a better universe, and he needs the 'right' kind of person to do that. Nanashi has to be someone willing to commit atrocities only for a greater purpose, and Dagda has to ensure he can do that.
  • First, Nanashi can't go into the contract knowing that he'd be killing everyone, because someone who agrees to kill without knowing the weight of their lives would be a horribly immoral Creator. Dagda waited until Nanashi had seen how bad humans and demons can get before revealing that his plan would be to kill everyone.
  • Second, if Nanashi knew he'd become God, then his goal would to become God, not to create a world for humans. Dagda only told Nanashi that he would be the God of the new world after Nanashi killed his friends, proving that he's fully devoted to the cause.
• Apocalypse has been criticized for making the Law and Chaos routes simply Bad Endings, and the only legitimate choices are Bonds and Massacre. But Bonds and Massacre are the Law and Chaos routes. Alignment doesn't depend on what side you take or who you kill; alignment is about ideals and actions. SMTII's Law route still involves killing the Archangels and YHVH, the angels of Nocturne side with Chiaki's Yosuga rule, and SMTI's Judge Yama is a Law demon working for Chaos. The two endings are actually pretty close to Shin Megami Tensei I 's Law and Chaos ideals, minus the worship of God and Lucifer.
  • Bonds is the real Law route. Almost everything is in accordance with Messian philosophy. Nanashi uses teamwork and the Power of Friendship to fight evil, stays true to the group's ideals, rejects all other worldviews and forces others to take the same, for the sake of peace. Before the route split, the Bonds choices usually involve helping the weak in their time of need. If that's now Law, what is it?
  • Massacre is Chaos, and is almost exactly in alignment with the ideals of the original Cult of Gaea. Nanashi rejects the limits that others put on him, pursues personal strength, is aided by an ancient god of the earth, and ultimately seeks to kill the evil gods that hold dominion over the world.
  • In an aversion of Omnicidal Neutral, the real Neutral Route is Nanashi refusing Dagda's offer at the start of the game. Then Flynn just solves everything.
  • Krishna explains that being lawful or chaotic in and of themselves are not bad, but the concept of them have been twisted by YHVH's covenant. By striking down Merkabah and Lucifer, you're basically telling YHVH to take his distortions of Law and Chaos and shove it so you can enact your own ideas of the two sides, free from his agents' influence.
  • Apocalypse has also been criticized for making Bonds and Massacre too optimistic compared to previous SMT endings (Massacre isn't exactly happy, but it's optimistic because it permanently erases YHVH's presence from one world and frees it from the war between Law and Chaos). This isn't an awkward tonal shift; it's a compromise. Without Nanashi's meddling, Flynn would have enacted the Neutral ending, and most likely everyone who was killed in the three-way war (most obviously Shesha's victims, casualties of Camp Ichigaya, and everyone killed when the Demon Summoning Program failed) would have lived. Apocalypse's true endings had to be better than the Neutral route, otherwise all those people would have died for nothing. In other words, it's a way to balance Flynn and Nanashi so that neither is clearly better than the other; Flynn gets good results with the least casualties, and Nanashi gets great results with lots of casualties.
• Apparently, if Nanashi refused Dagda's offer, then the Neutral Route of the previous game would have gone on as normal. Why didn't anyone else take Nanashi's place? When Nanashi dies, he goes to Yomotsu Hirasaka (or at least to the gates), as opposed to the River Styx. Charon is up to his neck in souls. Dagda isn't. Of the handful of souls, only one was willing to make an obviously shady deal with a demon. Of course, there's the question of why some souls go to Yomotsu Hirasaka and most others go to the River Styx...
  • Corollary to that: Why didn't Dagda just go to the River Styx to pick up an acceptable soul rather than hanging around in a place where you only see a maximum of four dead people? Charon and his assistants are stuck at the shore, and committing a crime under their noses would be a bad idea. Dagda's breaking a lot of rules just by bringing someone back to life. It has to be a back-alley deal.
• At the start of the game, Nikkari says that Nanashi and Asahi would be old enough for their coming of age ceremony. Japan had a custom where children were given a child name and would choose their new names later on. It's similar to how Nanashi and Asahi are given the option of choosing new names upon becoming Hunters; Asahi keeps her name, but if Nanashi changes his name, everyone except for Asashi will call him by his chosen name.
• Given the Ashura-Kai's previous track record with children, it seems strange that they'd take in Hallelujah as a member. Hallelujah is the son of Samyaza/Shemyaza. If Abe was a member of the Ashura-Kai before Tayama's death, then he could have pulled some strings. If not, the Ashura-Kai could have found out that he's at the very least half demon and has inherent magical powers, which would be useful if he were indoctrinated into the group. Either way, Hallelujah is the worst equipped party member with one demon and no weapons except his fists because the Ashura-Kai wasn't prepared to arm him or was trying to force him to use his magic.
• While the Beach Episode is pure fanservice (except for fusing Mephistopheles), playing it after choosing Massacre gives it a new light. Mephistopheles isn't just making Hawaii for him; he's also giving him his friends back. Selling your soul to see Hawaii is a rip off. Selling your soul for many happy moments with friends who do not hate you is almost Worth It. Dagda thinks it's a waste of time to dwell upon dead friends.
• When YHVH is defeated, He transitions into a monstrous, ironically demonic second form; A seven-headed serpent, the main head of which bears a long mane of fire. The process He used to turn other gods into demons to fit into His narratives of being the only absolute god have turned on Him. This second form would thus mean he's been reverted into the Gnostic deity Yaldabaoth, A god that resembles a snake with the head of a lion, is the center of all monotheistic religions, and cannot comprehend nor will he accept the existence of other gods.
  • To further the Yaldabaoth angle, Yaldabaoth is a deity who entrapped humanity in the material world of his creation, believing in his ignorance that he was the one true god. The same applies to YHVH with the entire final battle taking it's cues from Gnosticism with YHVH as Yaldabaoth and the Axiom as Abraxas or Sophia. Better yet, Yaldabaoth's name is derived from the Aramaic expression yaldā bahôt meaning "descendant of Chaos" or "son of Chaos" and Demonized YHVH is a chimera who has Planned Chaos as one of his attacks. Hell, Yaldabaoth's mythology is basically Christianity with a Perspective Flip portraying God as a tyrant.
• One of Asahi's early quotes has her say that she wants to become a strong hunter quickly because Tokyo is about to become a warzone. While this refers to her wanting to help, it can also be construed as her saying that Tokyo is going to become very dangerous for everyone such as when the underground districts are compromised, and she wants to get out and get experience while it's still possible for her to do so.
• Flynn's relationship with Nanashi on Bonds and Massacre differs vastly, and this is reflected in his in-game behavior.
  • On Bonds, Flynn is Nanashi's friend, but he also has his own goals and agenda. He will only join Nanashi in YHVH's Universe and goes off with the Hunters when Nanashi exits, because he has better things to do than follow Nanashi around. He appears on the map and attacks enemies on his own because he is still a distinct character. When using the Fundraise command, he helps out by extracting a little bit of money every time Nanashi demands some.
  • On Massacre, Flynn is Nanashi's slave. He joins Nanashi as soon as he's resurrected, and follows him anywhere because he has nowhere else to be. While on the map, Flynn's model does not appear, which represents how he can't stand on his own anymore and also will always be at his master's side. When using the Fundraise command, Flynn waits until Nanashi is done before demanding more money, because he isn't going to interrupt.
• In the Messiahs in the Diamond Realm DLC, the Hero and Aleph have primarily Medium level skills, while the Demi Fiend and Flynn have Severe level skills. In the first two games, there were only two levels of attack skills. Skills such as Zanma and Agilao were the strongest skills of their type, whereas in later games they're just Medium.
  • The Hero and Aleph use Heroic Willpower to buff allies and debuff enemies respectively. In the first game, the Hero only starts fighting after he learns to summon demons, so his fighting style was built around working with a team and helping them. The second game features Aleph living in a world where hordes of demons can come at him every day, and Aleph spent a year learning to fight before summoning demons. Debuffing an entire horde of enemies is more effective than buffing one person.
  • Aleph is the only one who doesn't nullify Light attacks. Aleph and the Demi Fiend are the only ones who aren't human. Humans have a natural resistance to Light, but those two naturally do not. The Demi Fiend has the Masakados Magatama, which nullifies all attacks except for Gun and Almighty, which includes Light. Aleph has no such protection.
  • Dancing in demon negotiations requires Dexterity. Aleph has the best Dexterity out of the four other Messiahs, and he's infamous for being a good dancer.
• Asahi's demons are all magic-user healers, and they don't have offensive skills. While this gets in the way of her becoming an independent Hunter, from a story perspective, it's not a bad idea. First, she's a rookie, and her demons disobey her frequently at the start. If her demon decides to attack her, it can't hurt her too badly without offensive skills. Second, being the healer would earn her a lot of gratitude and attention.
• The penultimate dungeon is the only possible place for the alignment lock. It's the only place where Dagda can't revive Nanashi. Dying essentially boots Nanashi back to right before the last battle fought. In-story, Dagda probably waits until whatever enemy they're fighting is gone, and then revives him. In the case of bosses, Nanashi's allies would drag off his body; they know he can revive. Before they find out, Asahi wouldn't just abandon him. There is never an actual Reset Button; every choice that Nanashi makes remains. If Nanashi chooses Massacre and dies in the battle, his former allies would go to lengths to make sure that he stays dead; they'd lodge a lot of blades in him so that he'd die right after coming back, until they can escape the dungeon and give him some Cement Shoes. It would be a lot like the rituals used to ensure that vampires stay dead. Dying on Bonds can't boot Nanashi back to before the alignment lock because Dagda wouldn't ask him again. Going for Bonds would result in a battle that can't be lost because the new Dagda would ensure that Nanashi can't die during the battle (like the one right after Nanashi is revived), most likely. This is a nice detail that actually favors Massacre for once. Still doesn't explain how dying in Mikado would boot Nanashi back to before the imprisonment.
• Nozomi is a Hunter who specializes in guns, and does photography on the side. Shooting a camera is similar to shooting a gun; both require aim and a steady hand.
• Kinshicho is abnormally well off compared to the rest of Tokyo, going by the fully furnished rooms. Kinshicho is very close to a shopping district, and more importantly has the weakest enemies in the game. It's much easier for the Hunters to pop in and take what they want with minimal risk compared to, say, Shinjuku.
• The Broken Aesop of going on about the importance of bonds, yet having the party turn on you in the Massacre ending, is only a Broken Aesop if you play the whole thing straight. This is EXACTLY what Dagda was talking about, how dependency and clinging to others makes them weak: YOU are the deciding factor for everything (I mean, how else would you explain how everyone except you in your party can get wiped if you accept YHVH's final offer to become his servant if bonds really meant so much?), and they're influencing you into acting in a way that isn't really how you feel. You're only picking the moral choice out of an obligation. They need YOU, but do you need THEM? After all, The Power of Friendship is only played straight if the feeling's truly mutual...and you DO kill them fairly easily, even though you're outnumbered...
  • Inversely, the same could be said about the Massacre route. It only works if you actually agree with Dagda's ideals otherwise you're just going along with him out of fear of repercussions and siding with someone who only sees you as a puppet, and even speaks for you most of the time. Ironically, you can mostly fulfill Dagda's goal of killing every god and demon out there by doing all the sidequests and getting rid of him as well.
• Toki calling Nanashi 'Master', total dedication to him, and her stalker behavior is pretty squicky, but it actually makes sense in the context of a Freudian Excuse. Toki's parents gave her to the Ring of Gaea to be trained when she was a baby. Her only parental figures are Mii and Kei, who treat like a disposable servant, and Toki treats her lot like it's completely normal. Toki hasn't loved or been loved her whole life. When Inanna floods her with emotions, Toki needed some way to express her love, and the closest thing to love she ever experienced was her blind loyalty to the Ring of Gaea. Toki regarded the Ring as her master whom she would kill and die for, and she transfers that same dedication to Nanashi.
• Nanashi was found as a baby inside the Sky Tower, and was implied to be from Mikado. The Minotaur kills anyone who tries to pass through the gate... except the Minotaur is Akira's demon. He probably recognized Nanashi as Akira's reincarnation, and chose to let him pass.
• Flynn being brainwashed into serving Nanashi on the Massacre route has a lot of precedent.
  • Flynn follows the Samurai Code, which is practically synonymous with King Aquila's legacy.
  • Flynn does Akira's dirty work at least twice in Infernal and Blasted Tokyo.
  • Akira becomes king in every timeline using Flynn's work as the foundation.
  • In Blasted Tokyo, he can only rally his people after Flynn takes care of Pluto.
  • In Infernal Tokyo, Akira declares himself king after making Flynn kill all his enemies.
  • It's more literal in the main Tokyo, because Mikado is literally built on top of Flynn's sacrifice.
  • Flynn is the only one with Godslayer Sword, so Nanashi's victory depends on him.
• Believe it or not, there is a very good reason as to why Danu replaced the rebellious Dagda with a more submissive version of himself in the Bonds route. Back in Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne, a Loa comments that demons sacrificed their ability to change and grow in exchange for a form of immortality. Dagda is so committed to his goals that he is unable to relent or change his mind, thus forcing Danu to create a replacement for him during the climatic battle.
• Compared to the previous game, Apocalypse heavily favors the human side in the human vs. demon conflict. Nanashi is a Tokyo Hunter who lived with the threat of demons all his life. Flynn is an outsider Samurai who only recently learned of the existence of Tokyo and demons. Flynn's a blank slate who can see moral ambiguity where Nanashi is heavily biased towards the survival of his own people.
  • Corollary to that: the Law and Chaos endings play out almost the exact same way in both games, but Apocalypse presents them as bad endings while IV treats them as legitimate. The difference is that Flynn had a whole game to experience the arguments for and against Law and Chaos, while Nanashi only saw a territory dispute (with humanity in the middle).
    • The Law endings in both games show the player character destroying Tokyo. Flynn does it to save his homeland from corruption. Nanashi instead destroys his homeland to save... a bunch of religious fanatics, most of whom he's never met.
    • Chaos features the player character overrunning Mikado with demons and being crowned King. Flynn does it for the good of both Tokyo (free from the dome at last) and Mikado (bringing change and freedom to a stagnated country). Nanashi would get the same results (and a nice Book Ends with the first king of Mikado returning), but all he knows is that Lucifer will free him from Dagda's contract.
  • IV also favors demons because the mechanics allow Flynn to work for them. Flynn can accept quests from practically anybody, even demons, because Burroughs assigns him quests. Nanashi can only accept quests through the Hunter Association, which is already biased against demons.
• One of the biggest complaints about the first game is about the Tokyo map being too confusing to navigate. Then, the music of bonus dungeon, Twisted Tokyo, a huge domain dungeon without a map, is a remix of said Tokyo map.
• The Reveal that IV and Apocalypse Lucifer and the entire monotheistic Chaos side are actually jobbers made to make YHVH look better has roots in some schools of theology. Basically, reconciling the the idea that nothing can happen without God's permission and the existence of demons that torment people led to the idea that all demons, even Lucifer, work for God.
• On the crossroad between Peace and Anarchy, Danu states that, if Dagda's plans (the Anarchy ending) go through, it will change what it means to be human. However, if the Neutral Peace route goes through, then they end up changing what it means to be god. It is a very interesting parallel.
  • This how I interpret the lore relating to the power of understanding, and what it means to be god. Humans use the power of observation and understanding to categorize various phenomenon: they see plants growing from the earth and call it life. They see a fire burning down forests and call it destruction. However to the primitive humans, it was still a bit harder to grasp, so they assigned such concepts human form; thus the natural essence of the world was shaped into gods, and the likes of Dagda who were nature caged in a human shell were born. In Peace, it is shown that demons/angels/gods work much closer to humans, helping with rebuilding, and most likely offering magical services. The meaning of god has been changed and perhaps millenniums into the future, they will get closer and closer to human. But in Anarchy, Nanashi the sole human has no equal, he is god, not only because of his power but also because there is no one like him; no one would be able to use the power of observation and understanding to change him. Therefore the definition of human is redefined.
    • In the Anarchy ending, Dagda wishes to return to his basest form. To do so, YHVH and all humans have to die to ensure that no one with the power of observation and understanding can turn him back into Dagda (or into a new alternative god) once he returns to nature. Unlike him, many other gods have spent too long in the form and shell that humanity made, either they have forgotten what it means to truly be one as nature or didn't feel it necessary to return into such a state.
• Satan's design is pretty cool, though it's a new interpretation of how he'd appear. Namely, he appears in what looks like a regular demon-humanoid form complete with seven heads. The seven heads might be evocative of the Beast of Revelation, but consider his components: Lucifer and Merkabah. Both of their designs is a mixture of their own selves plus their components (Lucifer himself with the lump on his arm being Walter, Merkabah's design being a mixture of the Archangels and Jonathan). It would make sense if Satan's form also showcases pieces of it's composites. In particular, Satan inherits the four wings of Lucifer's second form, the tail, nails and chains from Merkabah, the four lower heads sharing the same appearance could represent the Archangels, the singular demonic head in the middle could represent Lucifer, and the two draconic heads at the sides could represent Jonathan and Walter.
• Why isn't Isabeau as famous as Flynn, if she's been traveling with Flynn since the start?
  • On the Tokyo end: Flynn becomes Tokyo's Champion at the end of the previous game by bringing Hope to Tokyo. He does this by completing sidequests, which automatically exclude partners.
  • On the Mikado end: Isabeau was a part of two important missions, but never got credit. She helped capture the Black Samurai, but the Monastery snubbed the team. She also freed the Archangels, which never went public. Other than that, she hasn't been around the Samurai in Mikado long enough for them to recognize her; she was made a Samurai less than a week before venturing into Tokyo, which has the time dilation effect. Even if she returned every day, she'd only be visiting a few times per year from Mikado's point of view.
• As pointed out on his character page, why does the Demi-Fiend have a magic-focused build when Nocturne is heavily skewed towards physical skills? That underpowered build is exactly why he lost to Lucifer.
• During the Massacre route, if Navarre is chosen to be 'revived' as the Goddess, why does he come back as a ghost? Dagda gives the Goddess a new body based on Nanashi's memories, and Nanashi only met Navarre after he died.
• How does Hallelujah declare himself the new head of the Ashura-Kai without any problems, despite being fifteen? Citywide chatter with the Ashura-Kai reveals that nobody liked Abe, and he came out of nowhere. Abe probably had to get rid of everyone better qualified than him, so Hallelujah had a low bar to clear.
• This game is one of the few where the story and gameplay split actually causes both the Peace and Massacre routes to make more sense:
  • The gameplay favours Peace and makes your allies useful in battle with each of them having their own niche to complement your gameplay style and their Awakened Power to empower them further in contrast to Dagda's whining about how useless they are and him doing little to actually help. Regardless of how you feel about your friends, they at least have the decency to pull their weight and help you through the various hardships present. Due to Dagda's idiocy, the player likely being sick of him and Nanashi's wish to preserve the world to improve it, Nanashi turns upon Dagda and it's clear that for all of his complaining, Dagda's moveset is utterly pathetic with only Luster Candy and Megidoloan being threatening in the slightest. Unsurprisingly, Dagda's death makes no difference because his new self fulfils all the same functions as the old, not to mention that the final battle with YHVH has your party and Flynn being reunited with old friends to dethrone YHVH, taking the gameplay's emphasis of bonds to it's logical conclusion.
  • The story favours Massacre with it's overall pessimistic tone, the people being weak and dependant on Flynn, it's main characters being viewed as annoying and Dagda himself being allowed to spew his misanthropic views with little, weak or no opposition. The story makes it a point to value individuality over others, with Dagda resurrecting you and questioning if you even need your friends at all. With all other sides slain and your friends being of no further use to you, the only logical path is that Nanashi decides to work with Dagda and slays all his friends so he can overthrow YHVH and become the new creator. The story makes it clear how little value your friends are by stripping them of their personalities and having Nanashi using them as a tool alongside Flynn. You're able to use the Jade Dagger without help during YHVH's Universe and refute YHVH's points without your friends, taking the story's emphasis on individuality to it's utter conclusion.
• In the flashbacks with Akira, we see how he shares traits with his counterparts in both Blasted and Infernal Tokyo. Fitting, considering that Neutral is supposed to share ground with Law and Chaos.
  • Akira gave Skins his nickname, the same way Infernal Akira gave Walter and Jonathan the nicknames 'Bad Boy' and 'Goody Two-Shoes' upon arrival.
  • When Akira explains his plan for Mikado to Fujiwara and Skins, it's similar to the speech Blasted Akira gave to Flynn and co. Both declare that they will use the angels and demons for the sake of their kingdoms.
• For players of any Abrahamic faith, the YHVH fight is far more palatable when you go with the idea that YHVH is a fraudulent imposter and that destroying him is exactly what the Axiom (i.e the real God) wanted you to do all along. The fact that YHVH's second form is serpentine akin to some portrayals of Satan further the idea that YHVH is a fraud who deliberately uses religious scripture and a holy facade to trick humanity into thinking he's the one true god, something that is also attributed to Satan as well in a lot of religious circles.
• In the previous game, Demonoids can't use the Demon Summoning Program, and it's implied to be because they gave up on human potential for demonic power. So why can Nanashi use it, especially after he explicitly gives up on his humanity on Anarchy? The Tokugawa Mandala and Mikado Infiltration arcs show that Nanashi doesn't need the program to summon.
• In the previous game, Tennozu was the site of a human sacrifice cult revolving around Baal, run by the former King Ahazuya of Mikado. Apocalypse implies that Flynn never made it to Tennozu, since everyone's dead by the time Nanashi gets there and the Arahabaki he slays wandered in to scavenge the occult energies. Nanashi fights Baal late in the game; if Flynn had taken the quest and slain Beelzebub, then Baal couldn't fight Nanashi.
• Why did Aquila bar the Samurai from entering Tokyo, if his goal all along was to reunite Tokyo with the surface? Look back at the inscription he wrote on the Hall of the Minotaur, which Isabeau reads right before the boss fight: "Those who serve God Almighty: Thou shalt not proceed beyond this door." He's implicitly screening for Samurai who are willing to break the rules rather than blindly following the Monastery.
• Ame-no-Habakiri is said to be Excalibur, and it's even found in a lake. Even if he's not King Arthur, Nanashi is still the reincarnation of Aquila, a legendary king in his own right.
• Hallelujah and the Ashura-Kai don't know it, but by challenging Lucifer (and possibly killing him), he avenged Tayama. Since Flynn killed Yuriko, we can infer that Walter killed Tayama in the Reactor, and then Walter fused with Lucifer.
• It would seem strange that Chemtrail (and by extension it's DLC counterpart Plasma) are absent from this game despite their debut in Shin Megami Tensei IV, but then again there are two reasons for this: Compared to the other Fiends (who are practically mainstays at this point), Chemtrail was probably far less popular due it's Non-Standard Character Design and didn't return, only becoming more popular years after SMTIV was released. The in-universe reason would be that because Chemtrail and Plasma are based off conspiracy theories, and all the humans were killed in Twisted Tokyo, there would be nobody to believe in such theories, and therefore no negative energy to create them, ensuring that both Fiends would be unable to exist in Twisted Tokyo.
  • Additionally, Daisoujou is also absent despite all the other Fiends from Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne (Dante and Demifiend aside) being present. Most of it's Compendium Entries state that it will appear in front of people during the day of salvation. The messiahs never arrived in the Twisted Tokyo timeline, allowing Tokyo to become overrun with demons, and ensuring that salvation (and by extension Daisoujou) never arrived.

Fridge Horror

Fridge Horror

• On Massacre, the point is to kill every single god and demon out there. What about the demons in your stock? Do you kill them, too? What about Asahi's demons, and Chiro?
• While Bonds is definitely a good ending, if the theory that Hijiri is Aleph and is being punished for killing YHVH is true, then Nanashi and co. are probably going to suffer through eternal torture.
  • You just don't kill YHVH, you destroy it completely. So they will probably be OK.
    • YHVH's ending dialogue is slightly different depending on the route taken. In Bonds, he replies the party "shall" regret their decision, indicating he will return and exact revenge (and as long as humans need to cling to a god he will, as SMT II states), but in Massacre he claims Nanashi "can" regret his decision, indicating he will not return, as there's no-one left who believes in YHVH; they're all dead.
  • Nanashi and Flynn are messiahs sent down by the Axiom, and the Axiom is very much pro-humanity. They'll be fine, as depowering and slaying YHVH is exactly what the Axiom wanted.
• Where are all the fairies getting their Magnetite from? Nozomi can't possibly produce enough for all of them. Are they secretly eating humans or taking Reds?
• Hope's Ring appears in a chest in Naraku. In the previous game, it was used in a competition between Samurai prentices; one of them was supposed to find it and take it back to Hope. But Naraku's a lot more dangerous now; even if angels won't hurt Samurai, there's still all the other enemies in there. Are prentices still being trained in a place with level 50+ demons? Did Nanashi accidentally force all those prentices to keep searching a dangerous area for an item that isn't there anymore?
• The Ashura-Kai took in Hallelujah after he was orphaned. In the previous game, the Ashura-Kai's Red operations involved making Human Resources from children; Hallelujah was this close to being lobotomized.
• This game is an Alternate Timeline of IV's Neutral route where Nanashi accepted Dagda's contract, which causes events that didn't happen in IV to transpire such as the Divine Powers being released and Flynn to get captured by them right as he's about to re-awaken Masakado. This leads into the horrifying realization that in all of the routes present in IV, Nanashi didn't accept Dagda's offer and went to the underworld while poor Asahi was left to be burned alive by Adramelech.
• Nanashi and his allies are fortunate that they didn't get to meet The White. Considering Nanashi, it's possible that unlike Flynn he'd be far more willing to help them destroy the universe. Alternately, just imagine the discussions between them and Dagda and know that both of them want to destroy the universe for different reasons.
• What if Flynn chose to side with the Divine Powers willingly? Considering that the Divine Powers already have the necessary means to access YHVH's Universe and dethrone Him, perhaps they would win before Nanashi even understood what was really going on.
  • Alternately, what if Dagda was unsuccessful in preventing Nanashi from siding with Krishna? The Divine Powers now have 2 Godslayers on their side and Dagda's plans have crumbled before they could begin.
• Due to this game establishing that each ending takes place in it's own universe, just imagine how each universe could've ended. One where Nanashi helps the White to destroy everything. Or one where Nanashi helps the Divine Powers bring salvation to the world. Or one where Nanashi murders his friends and sides with Dagda only to betray him to become God himself. Or Nanashi kills Dagda then later betrays his friends to become God. Or another where he betrays everyone to become YHVH's loyal servant. Or endings where he sides with Lucifer or Merkabah to create a path of True Chaos or True Law. Or one where he rejects everyone to go his own path.