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Fridge / Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

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Fridge Brilliance

  • In a brilliant case of foreshadowing: For the original Knights of the Old Republic and its sequel, there are four discs required for installation. The original's fourth disc has on it a quite obviously evil Darth Malak, who is also featured on the cover. The sequel's however has an elderly woman in Jedi robes. Then comes The Reveal, and you realize that they highlighted the Big Bad before you even finished installing.
  • Why did Kreia spend all of Knights of the Old Republic II trying to "kill" the Force anyways? It's obvious once you put the pieces together. It's not just some personal vendetta against the Jedi and the Sith, but rather an act of intended benevolence. Exhibit A: the point early on when Atton suggests that the Jedi's reliance on the Force makes them weaker in the long run compared to those who have to survive without it. Exhibit B: The Yuuzhan Vong have been "cut off" from the Force. Exhibit C: As mentioned above, Kreia evidently knew enough of the Yuuzhan Vong to know that they were coming, and quite possibly knew a number of details about them. It's therefore probable that Kreia was trying to even the playing field more or less, especially if her visions told her that the actual Yuuzhan Vong invasion wouldn't occur for millennia, plenty of time for the galaxy to adapt to more Mandalorian means of fighting off the extra-galactic invaders. Which would mean that in a very twisted sense, the "Big Bad" is really an extremely misunderstood (which is all her fault), and possibly also misguided, anti-villain.
    • Although, if you think about it, Kreia was trying to create a new, stronger order of Jedi. This was WHY she was training the Exile in the first place. Parading the Exile in front of the remaining Jedi Masters was meant to be her moral victory over them; she's just as mad at you if you killed them all as she is if they try to depower you. And those Force-Dead assassins she was training would probably have been just as effective against the True Sith Empire as they were against the Jedi (other than the Exile, anyway). Plus, good luck taking out the Sith Emperor in a fair fight.
    • Jossed. She was talking about the "True Sith" who show up in Star Wars: The Old Republic. Of course, you take out the Force, and Vitiate wouldn't be an issue anymore, since that's pretty much all he is. Her teaching about embracing both Jedi and Sith ideas and not a single side is also accidental Foreshadowing for the expansions in Star Wars: The Old Republic, where the Shadow of Revan, Knights of the Fallen Empire and Knights of the Eternal Throne involve Taking A Third Option and assembling an army of defecting Jedi, Sith, criminals, soldiers, and even Vitiate's ex-wife to try and take him down without much assistance from either the Empire or Republic.
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    • It's also a matter of Cutting the Knot. Think on it; 25,000+ years of Sith kill Jedi, Jedi kill Sith. One side decimates the other to a handful of survivors, and the survivors go on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge to destroy the other side. Repeat to infinity. Meanwhile, the muggles get steamrolled by a war that really isn't theirs to fight. The Force soaks up the blood sacrifices, plays both sides, and is indifferent at best to the outcome. So not only will destroying the Force stop its dickish manipulation of everyone, but it'll take out both the Jedi and the Sith, leaving the Force-deaf to pick up the pieces in a brutal, but functional meritocracy without the galactic-scale endless religious war the saber-swingers keep fighting. Well, at least until the Vong show up.
  • Kreia's entire goal of "killing" The Force and her motives for trying to do so. Either she's wrong and Kreia was about to cause genocide on a GALAXYWIDE scale for no reason before The Exile stopped her, or she was right about The Force being a manipulative Jerkass God and thus there would be no way The Force itself would ever allow her to actually pull off her plan, if it would have actually worked in the first place. Either way Kreia's plan never had a chance to succeed no matter what happened because it defeats itself by it's very premise.
    • The ending conversation heavily implies that this plan was fake, it was a lie to force the Exile to confront her. Her real plan was just to beef the Exile up enough to be a worthy partner for Revan when he attacks the Sith Empire, and one of the Sith teachings she embraces is that the student must defeat the master.
  • You know that scene on Nar Shaddaa with the homeless guy, how nothing you do to him matters because the Force will screw him over anyway? How anything you try to do will be twisted by a Force that cannot be trusted and yet insists on robbing you of free will? Maybe you understand Kreia's point of view a little better now.
    • This is Kreia's Lesson- it's the entire thematic point of the game!
  • Why can Kreia teach both the Jedi and Sith prestige classes to the player? It's not Gameplay and Story Segregation, it's because she was once a Jedi and a Sith.
  • Kreia's teaching are proven right by the end of the game. As the light sided Exile is left uncounscious after the Masters tried to sever his connection to the Force on Dantooine, Kreia reveals that what saved him/her from the same fate as all the other Jedi at Malachor was Fear. And as Darth Traya draws her last breath, she admits that she did all her manipulations in order to strengthen the Exile, because she Loved him/her and what s/he represents. The two great dynamics that allowed the Exile to return to the Light and save he Galaxy from destruction spawned from two feelings forbidden by the Jedi code.
  • Multiple NPCs comment on the Exile's talent with creating Force Bonds, connecting with people through the Force. This implies empathic abilities. Place an empath next to a traumatic event, say the destruction of Malachor V, and they will be damaged. - Romantic Pessimist
    • Applies to all Jedi in general, really. It's implied that this is why so many Jedi turned to the Dark Side with Revan and Malek. The Exile, being the most experienced with Force Bonds / empathy, was the only one that naturally reacted to the horror of galactic war by cutting all bonds to deafen herself.
  • Atton actually gives you a subtle bit of Foreshadowing early on in Peragus. When you run up with Kreia, he says, "Whoa, another Jedi? Are you guys reproducing?" Yeah, it's very understandable how he assumes the player character is the Jedi...anyone in his shoes with a brain could have figured out the Jedi Exile was indeed the Jedi people were talking about in the base, especially after the conversation he had. However, later on, the person who he knows is a Jedi walks up with someone who he hasn't seen before, and he misidentifies her as a Jedi too. Wait a tic, he never saw Kreia before, why did he say that? Get enough influence with him. he reveals that not only is he force-sensitive, but used to hunt Jedi for the Sith. Makes sense that a Jedi hunter would be able to identify a force-user.
  • There could be a whole 'nother page just for Kreia. While watching a Let's Play, the LPer casually pointed out that in the first proper conversation you have with her on the Ebon Hawk, she lies to you twice.
    • A link to that LP would be great. I'd love to see that moment.
      • I didn't post the original comment, but it's probably this.
    • What are the two lies? I haven't played the game since 2005 and hell if I can find them.
      • Definite lies: 1) That the Jedi council cut you off from the force, 2) Revan escaped from the Jedi, 3) that she doesn't know where Revan went. Also that the force bond can kill you is likely a lie, we only hear it from her, the Jedi masters don't think such a thing is possible and she has good reason to lie since it gives her a way to influence the exile.
    • The lies are, as pointed out by the LP, also what kick start the main plot of the game - without her planting the idea of getting the Council back together in the mind of the Exile, they were going to stay hidden, potentially forever, and would lead either to the Jedi dying out, either from the Sith attacking them or simply dying off on their own. What would remain would be Atris and her corrupted teachings.
    • And, as pointed out in the LP, why does Kreia get the Exile to gather the Council together again only to kill them in the light side ending? She didn't intend that. She brought them back together to show off the Exile, her prize pupil, the embodiment of her teachings, an example of someone who managed to survive without the Force and thrive. And yet the Council, blinded by their decades of Force usage, could only see the Exile as a rip in the Force, something dangerous. She acts to protect the Exile, and in turn cuts off the Council from the Force, which they simply can't survive, having grown to use the Force as a crutch.
  • In the second game, there's a docking-bay owner who you have to either pay off or persuade to let you leave the Ebon Hawk there for free. You can try to use Force Persuasion on him, but it will almost always fail. Why? Said docking-bay owner is a toydarian (the same species as Watto from Episode 1), which are known to be immune to mind tricks.
    • Probably not really immune, but rather resistant. Dominate Mind level of this Force feat affects him quite well.
  • Early in the second game, when Atton and the Exile talk about Revan, Atton assumes that Revan was female and the player has the option of having the Exile correct him. Atton served under Revan and should know perfectly well whether Revan was male or female - but he also has every reason to obfuscate that fact by either intentionally getting the details wrong (if Revan was male) or just making flippant comments about Revan's sex (if Revan actually was female).
  • Not sure if this is a shout out or even a callback, but in Shadows of the Empire it's revealed that Vader was trying to sustain his body outside of his suit by focusing his anger and hatred with the Dark Side of the Force. Sion succeeds in doing exactly that.
  • Kreia mentions that she can't read Bao-Dur's thoughts because they "require many translations in meaning". Of course they do, he's an alien born and raised speaking a language other than Galactic Basic and thus thinks in such a language by default, even though he's easily capable of speaking Basic his thoughts are not naturally in such a manner. Kreia would have to be able to easily understand Zabraki in order to be able to read his thoughts.
    • Its implied it also has to do with his technologically adept mind and his ability to create a machine as destructive as the Mass Shadow Generator.
  • Throughout the game, the player gets several chances to gain influence with Kreia by listening to her teachings and telling her they'll take her words into consideration. If you look at what's happening carefully, you realize that you aren't really gaining influence with Kreia; she's gaining influence with you.
  • Why does a full Light Side Guardian get a bonus to Strength, while a full Dark Side gets a random damage bonus? A Jedi is supposed to maintain control, meaning that they're more accurate and more consistent, while a fallen Jedi attacks with furious emotion, leading to swings that deal more damage than the calm and controlled Jedi but don't have the precision to hit any more accurately.
    • The game mechanics then inadvertently highlight the hypocrisy found in both the Jedi and Sith. The strength bonus is just that, a bonus to your strength, which in the game is absolutely useless except for attacking things. That doesn't sound very light side. The damage bonus is a bit more complex, in that the bonus is not tied to any attributes. As a result, a dark side Exile is most effective in combat by using the bonus in addition to a smaller Strength damage bonus, putting the overall bonus slightly under par for a a neutral Soldier, improving Dexterity (giving more defense), and taking one of the feats that allows you to substitute Dexterity bonuses for Strength in melee attack rolls. These feats are called Weapon and Lightsaber Finesse. Additionally, the party members that focus on strength, Bao-Dur and Handmaiden, are either obedient or willful, qualities found in the Sith, while those that have a focus on dexterity are more tactful, tend to keep their distance, and are equally taken to discretion as any regular Jedi. With the sole exception of Mira, all of the latter, including Atton, are acquired at either neutral or dark side, while the former start at light side. Sheesh, can you overdose on Black and Gray Morality?
    • There is a similar brilliance in the Consular's light side and dark side bonus. The light side bonus is an extra 3 wisdom, while the dark side bonus is an extra 50 FP. Since the Exile gets the alignment mastery bonus twice, once for the base class and once for the prestige class, that means the Consular>Jedi Master gets an extra 6 wisdom, while the Consular>Sith Lord gets an extra 100 FP. The Sith Lord's benefit is obvious immediately, they can use their force powers a lot more often. By comparison, a level 15:1 Jedi Master only has an extra 48 FP, and their greater resistance to force powers and the greater effectiveness to their own isn't worth much at that point. But what about at level 50? The Sith Lord still has that same extra 100 FP, while the Jedi Master's additional plus 3 to their wisdom modifier translates to an extra 150 FP, plus a greater resistance to offensive force powers, plus their own force powers are more effective across the board. The dark side gives a more obvious immediate benefit, but a patient master of the light side will eventually be equal, or even superior to the dark side master.
      Luke: Is the dark side stronger?
      Yoda: No! No. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
    • This dichotomy of light and dark in subtle mechanical detail is even represented by the Exile's personal lightsaber crystal. If the Exile is light-sided, the crystal is white and gives a bonus to Wisdom, which represents understanding and focus when used for casting spells in Dungeons & Dragons, while a dark-side Exile gets a black crystal that gives a bonus to Charisma, which instead represents raw force of personality and instinct. Likewise, the black crystal gives bonuses to critical damage, which usually represents hitting a weak spot or vital organ, while the white crystal just gains a general damage bonus against dark-sided enemies.
  • During the Doctor's Alibi quest, the (incorrect) motive for murder is provided by a Twi'lek slicer named Kiph, who saw the victim arguing with Dhagon Ghent, the man you want to prove is innocent. (You later learn that the argument was in fact flirtation, of a sort). However, later in the light-side (canon) plot, Kiph is working for the separatist coup. So, was the motive an innocent mistake, or was Kiph paid to set Ghent up?
  • Yet more brilliant foreshadowing discovered on another run-through. What is the first thing Kreia does when encountered in game? Deceive the player and the exile by pretending to be a corpse, quite successfully. She deceives us all as she will continue to do throughout the entire game!
    • Also, as pointed out in the above LP, what's the first thing she does after waking up on Peragus, before she says a single word? She adjusts her hood, disguising her identity (even if the Exile wouldn't know her, it's a point of her character - everything that's true is hidden). Indeed, it's even playing on the player's perceptions, that you see her in the robes, you identify her as a Jedi and don't question her identity at all. She is disguising herself right in front of you, and it can fly right by your radar.
  • Why doesn't Kreia wants to help the Ithorians and remain distant even when you point out that Chodo Habat can help you? As pointed out by the Let's Play, she doesn't want anyone else interfering with what she wants to teach the Exile, and a Force sensitive Ithorian might just do that. He doesn't.
    • It's also part of the reason she hates droids because she can't manipulate them like she does the rest of your party.
  • It seems odd that Atton can beat Darth Sion at the Trayus Academy. Even if the Exile taught him to use the force he's still a novice fighting a master with decades of experience. Then again he was trained by Darth Revan to hunt Jedi, having fought and killed Force users before. Even if his own abilities as a Force user were inferior, that knowledge and experience no doubt helped him immensely.
  • Mical the Disciple is a walking ball of Fridge Brilliance. Kreia states that even those who were cut off from The Force maintain subconscious ties to it. You find him in the ruins of the Jedi Enclave library when there's giant nasty monsters outside the door. Of course he knew how to get to said library, He was a failed apprentice who probably spent most of his childhood at said enclave, and was subconsciously tapping into The Force to get him past the monsters. His starting class is soldier? Well, yes. He fully admits to working for the Republic, just not admitting he works for Republic Military Intelligence. And where did the Jedi send their washouts? Telos. Crunch the numbers on the timeline, and he was probably arriving there just as Saul Karath's world-razing fleet was leaving. Therefore, it now makes a lot of sense that he's taking his orders directly from Carth, assuming a LS Revan. This would also explain why Carth knows a few things he oughtn't about Jedi, and why he was able to pass Carth's notorious trust issues and possibly-Force powered BS detector to be picked for the mission. Even if you Corrupt the Cutie on him, he becomes a cruel, but effective, Senator, not a Sith. And, on a meta level, it would also explain why Mandalore doesn't even try to antagonize the kid. ("Oh, he's working for my vod? The one who doesn't trust anyone without damn good reason? Okay, he's no one to worry about.") His Sarcasm-Blind, goody-two-shoes persona? It's as much a cover as Atton's amoral smuggler mask. He also explains why the Shadow Consulars can be specced as tanks in Star Wars: The Old Republic. Not only do we have his starting class of "Soldier" (heavy weapons and armor), but his upgraded Consular class, which makes him a Magic Knight. Shadows are the intelligence and black ops wing of the Jedi, much like he was doing for the Republic.
  • Almost as soon as you arrive on Nar Shaddaa, a beggar asks you for money. You can be benevolent and give them money, or tell them to scatter. No matter what you do, Kreia tells you that you did the wrong thing, and you'll see the outcome. If you help the beggar, he gets mugged by another beggar, and if you don't help him, the beggar kills his would-be attacker. But if you go to that location, either time, you won't find any bodies. And isn't it a little odd that, no matter what you pick, Kreia still has some sage-like advice? Well the reason is simple: it isn't happening. Your encounter with the beggar ends once you stop talking to them, Kreia is the one who projects the images into your mind. What you're seeing isn't actually happening. We know that Kreia is capable of manipulating people verbally, as well as through the Force, and she's more than capable of hiding herself entirely from other powerful Jedi like Atris. It wouldn't be beyond her abilities to simply manifest an image or two in your mind, and convince you it's real
  • Atris can be a Zero-Effort Boss and Anti-Climax Boss, depending on how well spec'd and equipped the player is. While she certainly knows how to fight, Atris is a historian, and probably the least skilled and experienced member of the Jedi Council when it comes to such matters. So it shouldn't come as any real surprise how easily the Exile can defeat her.

Fridge Horror

  • How the hell did Sion end up the way he was? And Nihilus?
    • According to Avellone and the tie-in comic, Malachor happened to Nihilus. He's the 'dark side' of what the Exile could have become, embodying the death on that planet rather than overcoming it.
    • Sion was a Sith Marauder serving in the Exar Kun war and was slain there. Upon dying he managed to harness his hatred and dark side powers to overcome death and was killed over and over.
  • How many people would have died if Kreia succeeded at destroying the Force? And would that really make the galaxy a better place?
    • Either way you look at it, it's nightmarish. If her hypothesis was correct, then you just allowed all the horrors of the Empire and the Jedi-Sith wars past this point to exist. Thousands of years of war and billions of lives could've been spared if you didn't stop her. If her hypothesis is incorrect, the worst case scenario is this: considering the Force is connected/generated to life, she may have ended up murdering EVERY living thing in the entire UNIVERSE. This is the kind of death toll NEKRON attempted.
      • The only people that would have died were the ones who are Force Sensitive, which is fairly rare in the Star Wars universe, and not all of them would have died either, many would have been deafened to the Force instead. What Kreia wanted was to stop the Force from giving visions, bending probability, and so forth so that the Galaxy can take care of itself without some sort of God playing with them like they're chess pieces. Kreia's real flaw is not considering the fact that if The Force is some all knowing, all powerful entity that can do whatever it wants, then she failed long before she ever started, as The Force would never allow her to destroy it anyway, even if it is actually possible to do so.
      • Kreia is also an inveterate liar. She also tells you that her goal was simply to reforge a new Jedi Order, one without the blindness and dependence of the old, and that you and the people you drew to yourself were her tool to do so. Can't help but think she'd be disappointed with the Jedi Order a few thousand years down the road.
      • It could also cross this with Fridge Brilliance, as Kreia could be considered as pulling a Xanatos Gambit. Yeah, she would really prefer to destroy The Force and create a Force free galaxy, but by planting the seeds to the creation a new and better Jedi Order she also helps create a better galaxy in another way if her true objective fails. She's willing to settle for the latter if the former just can't work no matter what she did, and either way she's giving quite the middle finger to both the Jedi and the Sith that made her life hell.
  • It's a very good thing that the only returning members of Revan's party that end up traveling with Exile are Hk-47, T3-M4, and Canderous. The droids have no connection to the Force, and Canderous is almost Force resistant on top of being older and very firm in his beliefs, but he was still effectively blackmailed into coming along. (It's damn near impossible to get any influence with Canderous in a vanilla version of the game). Assuming a DS Revan, they're among the few who survived. With an LS Revan? Mission and Zaalbar are still fairly young and easy to manipulate. Jolee, Bastila, and Juhani, as Force users, would be vulnerable to the Exile's ability. Carth would be harder to outright manipulate, but still vulnerable, doubly so if you believe the theory that he's an untrained Sensitive like most of Exile's party. Kreia would have chewed them all up and spit them out, and a DS Exile could have twisted them irrecoverably.

Example of: